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Gonzalo
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Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:53 pm

Earlier today I was watching an interview to Eliot Spitzer ( Former Governor of NY ) and he talked about the prediction of several scientist ( plus Al Gore of course    ), saying that events like Sandy ( A.K.A. the Superstorm, Frankenstorm ) would pass from a frequency of once every century to once every decade or worst, and besides that, the serious chance of the sea level raising several foots, all of this as consequence of the Global Warming in the coming years.

Now, with this in mind, should the authorities consider the chance of "moving" the NYC airports to higher lands ?

( Obviously, if constructed, this will be completely new airports, but keeping the historical names like JFK or LGA ).

The same question applies also for several big airports around the world ( AMS comes to mind immediately since its elevations is NEGATIVE with -11ft. )

Thoughts ?

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canyonblue17
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:03 pm

I don't think moving the airports is feasible, but building better protective barriers around the current ones could definitely help.
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B6JFKH81
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:06 pm

Hi Gonzalo, I'm not sure if you are familiar with the area around here, but here are the first things that pop into my mind when I read your question. Where, exactly, are you going to put an airport the size of JFK that is on higher land without having to buy a buttload of homes and re-route the road system??? And the NIMBY's? Good luck. JFK and LGA are both on extremely populated Long Island (yes, Queens IS part of Long Island), there is no room to build anything here. You would have to go north of NYC for that and then everyone (the MILLIONS of residents) on Long Island is screwed having to schlep to EWR or up to the new JFK/LGA or head out to ISP which has limited domestic operations.

As you can see below, it is quite crowded here:

"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
PlaneAdmirer
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:06 pm

Ok, I am game: How and where would the airports be moved and how much would it cost? It's not like the NY area has lots of empty spaces looking for an airport.

Elliot Spitzer doesn't think about the cost of his actions/ideas from what I can tell.
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 1):
I don't think moving the airports is feasible
Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 2):
Hi Gonzalo, I'm not sure if you are familiar with the area around here
Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 3):
How and where would the airports be moved and how much would it cost?

Hi everyone !! I'm not familiar with the area "first hand", although I get the idea of a very, very crowded place like you said.
About the "how and where", is really a good question. The construction of barriers could be only feasible if constructed to the whole city I think ( why protect "only the airports" and not the other infrastructure? ), but that will take trillions and a couple of decades. If this "worst case scenario" is going to be "the norm" as this scientist are saying, it will be cheaper to spend 20 billions one time to build a big airport once in a safer area, than spending 5 billions every 5 years to re-build the ones damaged by storms. Naturally the "where" is still a BIG question mark, and the NIMBY's will pose a threat to any project unless is located in Newfoundland   , but still, I 'am curious.

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cargolex
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:36 pm

I don't think that's really feasible. There just isn't very much land available for any airport expansion or construction, and much of it isn't all that much "higher" than where the airports are now, though some of it might be more isolated from the coastal areas. That said, the cost of acquiring that land would be astronomical and the cost of building a new airport even worse.

The only way to do a "reset" on the NY airports is to do something like what Hong Kong did - build a whole new facility on reclaimed land - which wouldn't necessarily fix the flooding problem and would be enormous in cost and complexity.

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 3):
Elliot Spitzer

...Hasn't been involved in NY Government in more than four years, and is highly unlikely to be elected to any position in NY government ever again. He can give a million interviews, he isn't going to be very influential.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:43 pm

The airports aren't the main problem. The whole city has a problem. Since you're citing AMS, then I'd suggest protecting NYC entirely by constructing a big flood barrier. It will be a big task for sure.
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iFlyLOTs
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:03 pm

What about the Central Park Airport?

http://manhattanairport.org/

  
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:04 pm

We can't even get a large, single, efficient airport for good reasons... I doubt they'd actually do it for large storms that rarely ever come and cause, in the grand scheme of things, minor inconveniences. The airports will be good to go in a week, I bet
 
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:14 pm

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 2):
I'm not sure if you are familiar with the area around here, but here are the first things that pop into my mind when I read your question. Where, exactly, are you going to put an airport the size of JFK that is on higher land without having to buy a buttload of homes and re-route the road system??? And the NIMBY's? Good luck
Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 4):
it will be cheaper to spend 20 billions one time to build a big airport once in a safer area, than spending 5 billions every 5 years to re-build the ones damaged by storms

I would think it would be cheaper and more effective to build effective flood gates or flood barriers.
 
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 7):
What about the Central Park Airport?

http://manhattanairport.org/

What a great idea, those buildings to the west of Central Park won't pose much of a problem and I am sure that the owners of the those cheap condos around Central Park would love to have aircraft landing and taking off right by their windows.
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 4):
If this "worst case scenario" is going to be "the norm" as this scientist are saying, it will be cheaper to spend 20 billions one time to build a big airport once in a safer area, than spending 5 billions every 5 years to re-build the ones damaged by storms.

I think that you are underestimating the cost of an airport to replace JFK/LGA by at least a factor of 10, probably more along the lines of a factor of 50. With the prices of land on Long Island and the inevitable lawsuits that building a new airport with bring, I would not be surprised to see the price of said new airport starting at $200 billion US. Further, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the costs climb as high as $500 billion US by the time said airport was complete and receiving flights.

That said, such an airport would be unwelcomed by most NYC residents, as they would almost certainly have to travel upwards of 3 hours by taxi or subway to reach it, as there is simply no place in the 5 Boroughs to put such a facility.
 
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:31 pm

Quoting cargolex (Reply 5):
The only way to do a "reset" on the NY airports is to do something like what Hong Kong did - build a whole new facility on reclaimed land - which wouldn't necessarily fix the flooding problem and would be enormous in cost and complexity.

Hong Kong had to build a new island because the old airport was in a bad location and maxed out on size, not because it was too low.

I don't think the answer is barriers. For one thing a 20 foot wall at the end of the runway seems to me to be an impediment to operations.

The better answer might be to raise the airport 15 feet or so right where it is. Just as Hong Kong and Osaka built islands, the current land can be built higher. Obviously a runway would be out of service in the process, but runways get rebuilt from time-to-time anyway. You need ramps for access until the taxiways are raised too, but many airports have ramps and bridges (I think PHX and DFW both have them) which require the aircraft to taxi up and down slight hills. It would then be much easier to just build barriers around the terminals until they can either be raised or built higher as terminals are replaced. Even huge buildings can be raised if that is easier than replacing them.

Obviously this doesn't have to be done all at once if planned properly. A 20 or 30 year plan might be appropriate. Once you have decided that all new or rebuilt facilities are to be raised, you can do it piece by piece.
 
D L X
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:19 am

Since we're in whimsy-land, let's go whole hog and think outside the box.

How about you put the airport on a large complex of connected barges directly next the current JFK or LGA? The barges would rise with the tide, so they couldn't be overtopped. The barges would be near the current airports, so you wouldn't have NIMBYs.
 
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting aklrno (Reply 12):
The better answer might be to raise the airport 15 feet or so right where it is. Just as Hong Kong and Osaka built islands, the current land can be built higher. Obviously a runway would be out of service in the process, but runways get rebuilt from time-to-time anyway. You need ramps for access until the taxiways are raised too, but many airports have ramps and bridges (I think PHX and DFW both have them) which require the aircraft to taxi up and down slight hills. It would then be much easier to just build barriers around the terminals until they can either be raised or built higher as terminals are replaced. Even huge buildings can be raised if that is easier than replacing them.

Depending on how it's executed and the local market, this option could work out to be largely cost neutral. In the parts of the UK I am familiar with there is a high cost associated with dumping waste rubble, natural building materials, heavy soils etc... - is this the case in the US? Several large projects local to me have licensed their site as a tip for these materials and, over a year or two, been paid to receive their fill material, which comfortably covers the cost of processing it and surfacing/landscaping once the ground is made up.

Quoting D L X (Reply 13):
Since we're in whimsy-land, let's go whole hog and think outside the box.

How about you put the airport on a large complex of connected barges directly next the current JFK or LGA? The barges would rise with the tide, so they couldn't be overtopped. The barges would be near the current airports, so you wouldn't have NIMBYs.

Personally I wouldn't class that as whimsical - it's the logical solution for many major cities to combat sea level rise.


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scutfarcus
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:40 am

Eliot Spitzer is absolutely correct that this kind of event is sadly going to become much more frequent in coming years until (and if) the climate stabilizes again. That said, "moving" the airport isn't going to happen. Building some kind of sea-wall is probably the only viable solution. Actually relatively affordable option when you think about it. The cost of one Sandy style socking is probably less than the cost of one seawall, so I can see it happening.
 
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:47 am

I love these daydreaming threads!    I honestly think that the best option is close all three NYC airports and replace them with a mega-airport much like Dubia World Central International Airport on an elevated artificial island.

Realistically, new flood gates are a better option.
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ytib
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:49 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 13):
Since we're in whimsy-land, let's go whole hog and think outside the box.

How about you put the airport on a large complex of connected barges directly next the current JFK or LGA? The barges would rise with the tide, so they couldn't be overtopped. The barges would be near the current airports, so you wouldn't have NIMBYs.

I have a better idea building on this in whimsy-land. Have barges which go out to sea and launch airplane aircraft carrier style, you eliminate the NIMBY's (except the fish) and provide for a good take-off. Landings would still have to be at the current airport however.  
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:58 am

Put it in the Hudson! There needs to be a landing strip there anyway.  

That said, I see an Island Airport being built. It's been discussed for LHR too. Perhaps the NYC area could consolidate 2 of the 3 airports into a Mega Port. LGA is maxed out, and JFK is so busy, along with EWR. If this happened, I see JFK and LGA combining. The New York area needs and airport the size of DFW, or at least with that many runways.
 
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:10 am

Quoting ytib (Reply 17):
Have barges which go out to sea and launch airplane aircraft carrier style,

Even better, you could launch them from a conveyor belt...   
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:28 am

While we are talking silly...

why don't we just move the entire city to some nearby cornfields in the main part of NY, just up the road. NYC is mostly a dump, along with its airports, so it's a great way to start fresh  
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 19):
Even better, you could launch them from a conveyor belt...   

NOOO not this debate again! lol
 
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:28 am

If only there was an airport in New York State that could be connected directly by high speed rail to New York Penn Station to use.........Surely the Port Authority has to have some idea of a relief airport that could be used with long runways
 
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:42 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 21):
high speed rail

        
The US will get true HSR when I become dictator of the world. Acela I don't count since it hardly ever reaches its top speed, from what I've heard.

I honestly don't know what to do for NYC's airport situation, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I have thought what it would be like to have an airport in Central Park. Or have an LCY type airport near Hudson River park, would be a cool, but expensive project for BA's LCY-JFK flight...   
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:49 am

Other cities have considered building airports out in their harbours (CLK, KIX.. perhaps a purposely made island with reclaimed land at substantial height can be built to house a large megaport. Yes it would cost $billions but it could be designed to handle the largest water tables imagined. If the money is there then it could be done I guess.
 
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:07 am

Bulldoze Staten Island. Problem solved. In fact, a few problems...
 
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:27 am

Quoting Delimit (Reply 24):

Bulldoze Staten Island. Problem solved. In fact, a few problems...

seriously - the most practical and plausible suggestion among all of the above!

not seriously - let's just outsource flying to others ... kick the can to India!   
 
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:28 am

Some folks above mentioned an "island-style" airport (ala KIX), or a new airport on reclaimed land (ala HKG). However, the tidal currents in the waters around NYC are pretty strong. I'd imagine you'd run into a nightmare just trying to build it as the fill would erode away so quickly. Was this an issue when KIX or HKG were built?

The only expansion I see ever happening in NYC is expanding JFK further into Jamaica Bay, and that doesn't solve the flooding issues, and probably would impinge on protected wetlands (which could make flooding worse...wetlands aren't protected just to piss off developers).

I think the way to go for JFK and LGA is better flood prevention (use of flood gates or better seawalls), and improving airfield drainage so that if the field does flood, it takes less time to drain. Almost any other option has been hashed and re-hashed over and over again on this forum and elsewhere...they are just non-starters for the many reasons already listed by the folks above me.
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:33 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 21):
If only there was an airport in New York State that could be connected directly by high speed rail to New York Penn Station to use.........Surely the Port Authority has to have some idea of a relief airport that could be used with long runways

Actually, this is a good idea. A massive airport could be built outside the city, with maglev service to NYC, Newark, maybe even Philly...
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:37 am

Many of you seem to forget that JFK is built on a wildlife reserve...making the changes mentioned here are impossible, without DECADES of paperwork.

One guy seems to have it right, it's much cheaper to fix what's broken and return to business as usual.
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Gonzalo
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:48 am

Quoting aklrno (Reply 12):
The better answer might be to raise the airport 15 feet or so right where it is.

Actually, after reading all the pros and cons detailed above and the various factors that can affect any change in the location of JFK and LGA, your proposition seems to be the better... although is a lot of work and a big disruption to the operations of the airports, for several months or even years, and the problem is, people don't like disruptions when the cause is a preventive measure, sadly, we only accept disruptions when there is a massive disaster like this storm or an Earthquake.

In any case, this is a very interesting discussion...

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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:30 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 21):

If only there was an airport in New York State that could be connected directly by high speed rail to New York Penn Station to use.........Surely the Port Authority has to have some idea of a relief airport that could be used with long runways

One issue with trains going from Penn Station under the Hudson is the limited capacity currently available which can not even handle NJT and Amtrak currently. Once again there are plans to double the capacity after the last project was killed by the New Jersey Governor once he took office. Unless something is done with the current options from Penn Station in anything involving Penn Station is an issue.
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:55 am

No, just lower the surrounding waters..
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nipoel123
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:17 am

Let me start by saying I'm not a supporter of this Global Warming/Climate Change theory, but let's not get into that.

Constructing barriers to prevent the water from coming into the airport's grounds seems like the best option, I agree. Look at us (the Dutch) we've been fighting water for ages, with only one major flooding coming to mind in the last what, 200 years? Where there is a will, there is a way.

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
AMS comes to mind immediately since its elevations is NEGATIVE with -11ft.

I'm not aware of any flooding at AMS, we've been pretty successful in keeping water out of there   . It's all about the barriers...
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aklrno
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:48 am

Quoting scutfarcus (Reply 15):

Eliot Spitzer is absolutely correct that this kind of event is sadly going to become much more frequent in coming years until (and if) the climate stabilizes again. That said, "moving" the airport isn't going to happen. Building some kind of sea-wall is probably the only viable solution. Actually relatively affordable option when you think about it. The cost of one Sandy style socking is probably less than the cost of one seawall, so I can see it happening.

I can see three more problems with seawalls:

1. The seawall has to go all the way around the airports, not just the side facing the ocean or L.I. sound. It would be a very long wall.

2. At JFK a seawall would destroy most of the wetlands near the airport. You would have to change a lot of wildlife protection laws.

3. Depending on the soils, water can go under a berm. It's not just a matter of piling dirt around the edge, You have to dig down below permeable soils and fill with something like concrete or clay. You are essentially building an earth-fill dam, which is a lot more complicated than the name suggests.

4. A seawall requires maintenance forever. You are already doing that with runways, taxiways, and buildings. Long term the seawall becomes much more expensive than just the cost of construction. Just one break in a seawall or berm and the whole thing is lost.

What, did I say 3 reasons?

There are four main reasons,....

(anyone under about 35 can apply in writing for an explanation of those last two lines.)
 
gatechae
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:52 am

Quoting caribb (Reply 23):
The US will get true HSR when I become dictator of the world. Acela I don't count since it hardly ever reaches its top speed, from what I've heard.

Whether or not its fast, isn't Acela one of the few Amtrak routes that makes a profit?
 
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:00 am

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 2):
Where, exactly, are you going to put an airport the size of JFK that is on higher land without having to buy a buttload of homes and re-route the road system???
Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 3):
Ok, I am game: How and where would the airports be moved and how much would it cost? It's not like the NY area has lots of empty spaces looking for an airport.

Let me play devil's advocate with this argument here: When LUK was flooded in the Cincinnati flood of 1937, that's when they moved the airport ops (airlines, etc) to CVG. If this was in the 1940s and they wanted a new location, I'm sure in NYC that would be totally feasible to do, find some land and reconstruct an airport on higher ground. But i mean, it's NYC. What land is there ?

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 32):
Constructing barriers to prevent the water from coming into the airport's grounds seems like the best option, I agree. Look at us (the Dutch) we've been fighting water for ages, with only one major flooding coming to mind in the last what, 200 years? Where there is a will, there is a way.

I have a buddy doing research on flood gates that are constructed within the ground. If you build those along the perimeter of the runway, they should be able to raise out of the ground and protect the airport in the occasion of a severe flood.
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:29 am

Quoting ytib (Reply 30):
One issue with trains going from Penn Station under the Hudson is the limited capacity currently available which can not even handle NJT and Amtrak currently.

Another issue is the time it takes to get to Penn Station just to get to another train to get to the airport.
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:37 am

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 7):
What about the Central Park Airport?

http://manhattanairport.org/


Is this a joke?

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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:46 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
( A.K.A. the Superstorm, Frankenstorm ) would pass from a frequency of once every century to once every decade or worst, and besides that, the serious chance of the sea level raising several foots, all of this as consequence of the Global Warming in the coming years.

"several foots" ????????????????

Look, If you do or don't believe in global warming, at least understand the magnitude of this storm. We have NEVER seen this before on this magnitude. The earth is ssssooo much older than we know. We have to understand the delicate balance we have with mother nature, and we can't. The best we can do is not disrupt this balance. But IMO, we really are!!!!!

We must change it
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PlymSpotter
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:27 am

Quoting B2468 (Reply 26):
Some folks above mentioned an "island-style" airport (ala KIX), or a new airport on reclaimed land (ala HKG). However, the tidal currents in the waters around NYC are pretty strong. I'd imagine you'd run into a nightmare just trying to build it as the fill would erode away so quickly. Was this an issue when KIX or HKG were built?

Yes, somewhere on the net there is a very detailed consultant report which documents the tidal and current modelling carried out on the chosen site in HKG. Sorry I don't have a link to it.


Dan  
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Gonzalo
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:34 pm

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 32):
Let me start by saying I'm not a supporter of this Global Warming/Climate Change theory, but let's not get into that.

While I'm not a supporter of the Global Warming theory either, I'm aware of other theories that simply claim that the weather of our planet shifts naturally ( with or without CO2 emissions ) every 10.000, or 15.000 thousand years, and that changes can occur sometimes very rapidly, other times more gradually. In any case, the different theories only change the name of the "guilty" ( the man and its activity or just a nature's cycle ), but doesn't change the crime. The fact is, there is less and less ice in the arctic every year, and that water melting HAS to go somewhere....
I admire the Dutch for a lot of reasons, and one of that reasons is the way you managed to "win" the battle against the sea for decades, but to be honest, I will be a little worried about all this ice melting....

Quoting WN787 (Reply 38):
"several foots" ????????????????

Sorry, I mean "Several feet"       but in any case, the thing is, apparently this kind of events could be more frequent, and yes, this last one set the record, but no one can assure the record can't be broken again....

Quoting WN787 (Reply 38):
We must change it

I agree...

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 35):
I'm sure in NYC that would be totally feasible to do, find some land and reconstruct an airport on higher ground. But i mean, it's NYC. What land is there ?

That seems to be the major problem, not the how, not the when, not how much, but the WHERE...

Rgds.
G.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:13 pm

How about leaving it there - letting the airfield flood and just cleaning-up and making repairs afterwards. A far less costly alternative. Airplanes can't fly and aiports can't operate anyways at the height of the storm.

It will likely be worth spending money on some better drainage, pump systems, and putting better safeguards in place to protect the electrical systems, lighting, and nav-aids at the airport from wind & water damage.

Despite this one-in-lifetime storm, the airports are reopened within 48-72 hours after the storm. Not bad by any means.
 
csavel
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:29 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 41):
Despite this one-in-lifetime storm, the airports are reopened within 48-72 hours after the storm. Not bad by any means.

Here you have it. Not every problem requires a huge solution if the occurence is extrememly rare. To use an analogy, O'Hare has great snow removal, DFW not so much, IAH probably next to none. Let's say there is the snowstorm of the century that puts Houston under a foot of snow - has happened, about as often as NY experienced the kind of flooding that they experienced recently.

See where I'm going with it? Would it make sense for IAH to invest in such snow removal equipment for the once-in-a-century storm, even if it knocks out the airport for two days - or even a week?

Obviously you can do improvements but seriously, it is amazing how fast the airports re-opened.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 21):
If only there was an airport in New York State that could be connected directly by high speed rail to New York Penn Station to use.........Surely the Port Authority has to have some idea of a relief airport that could be used with long runways

I assume that you are sort of tongue-in-cheek talking about SWF. Well not a bad idea, having an express train from Penn (perhaps stopping at Marble Hill for all the UWS Yuppies) but it wouldn't be a replacement but rather a feeder and of course Stewart would have to be greatly enlarged - and a lot of NIMBY's in the Hudson Valley.
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tjwgrr
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:31 pm

Quoting scutfarcus (Reply 15):
Eliot Spitzer is absolutely correct that this kind of event is sadly going to become much more frequent in coming years until (and if) the climate stabilizes again.

Now Spitzer is a climate expert like Al Gore..... (shaking my head while laughing)
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n92r03
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:58 pm

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 3):
Elliot Spitzer doesn't think about the cost of his actions/ideas from what I can tell.

Slightly off topic, but he certainly thought about this when he chose to "rent" vs. "own", a couple years back!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:33 pm

You can't build for 100 year events because alarmists claim the events will be more frequent without any facts to back it up, just opportunist conjecture.

Hurricanes do hit the northeast. Every 10 years or so. usually they hit long island, and would be more frequent if they didn't get caught by north carolina and Virginia, but sometimes they curve into new jersey. When I was a kid it was David, but that had weakened luckily. This one happened to mix with another front which caused havoc. But there is no preponderance of evidence "climate change" caused anything. That conclusion can't be scientifically drawn 2 days out. It would take study, modeling, research.
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ScottB
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting csavel (Reply 42):
Well not a bad idea, having an express train from Penn (perhaps stopping at Marble Hill for all the UWS Yuppies) but it wouldn't be a replacement but rather a feeder and of course Stewart would have to be greatly enlarged - and a lot of NIMBY's in the Hudson Valley.

Except... that particular railroad right-of-way (the Metro-North Hudson Line) was heavily damaged by this particular storm as well and will be out of service far longer than the affected airports; the tracks on the Hudson Line washed out. Also, you're still on the wrong side of the river from SWF, so a Hudson River crossing would be required. A routing along the west side of the river isn't feasible due to West Point. The Stewart property isn't large enough, either, now that a good chunk of the land adjacent to the airport is a state forest, thanks to the NIMBY's.
 
ATL
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:14 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 45):

You can't build for 100 year events because alarmists claim the events will be more frequent without any facts to back it up

"Without any facts" is an exaggeration. There's plenty of evidence and facts.

Don't want to shift away from topic here but give credit where credit is due.
 
ckfred
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:15 pm

Storms of the century tend to happen more often than every 100 years or so. In Chicago, we had heavy rains in August of 1987 that caused so much flooding that I-190 into ORD was impassable.

I don't remember exactly when, but it was a year or two later that we had another storm that dumped about the same amount of rain in a short period of time. It cause substantial flooding elsewhere in the Chicago area.

Then came July of 1996, when heavy rains hit DuPage County. It washed out the BNSF rail line, forcing people between Chicago and Aurora to drive or take other rail lines to the Loop for several days.

That was 3 "storms of the century" in 10 years.

We also used to get our snow storms of the century (20 to 24 inches) about every 20 years (67, 79, and 99), but the last one was in 11, only 12 years after the last big snow, and it had thunder snow.
 
sjc4me
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RE: Should NYC Airports Be "moved" To Higher Lands?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 16):
I honestly think that the best option is close all three NYC airports and replace them with a mega-airport

It's not off the water but this could be a good consolidation compromise. Near lots of transportation, etc...

Unable.

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