SK Cut 1000 Jobs & Cut 15 % On Rmn. Salaries?

seansasLCY · Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:12 pm

Back to the issue at hand. The Financial Times are reporting that the SAS board will meet tomorrow (Sunday) to discuss whether to declare bankruptcy.

"The board of SAS, which is owned by the governments of Sweden, Norway and Denmark, will meet on Sunday to discuss whether to push ahead with a restructuring plan under which the workforce would be cut by 40 per cent, or whether to declare bankruptcy"
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d4b80b9e-2...7d-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2CW2U6iYq - Registration required.

ARN · Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:55 am

All SK-flights today are fully tanked ex their bases so they could fly back home in case of bankruptcy.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article15795245.ab

AirlineCritic · Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:20 am

Per local media, pilots and cabin personnel are rumored to go with the suggested demands. Still, Expressen reports that SAS could be in bankruptcy by tomorrow morning.

Interesting times. Not that I am particularly fond of SAS, but it is sad to see an airline go down the drain. The end has come very quickly.

I'm hoping for the best though. At least hold on until Friday, when I'm flying SAS!

bjorn14 · Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 100):
Back to the issue at hand. The Financial Times are reporting that the SAS board will meet tomorrow (Sunday) to discuss whether to declare bankruptcy.

Is this a chapter 11 or 7 kind of bankruptcy?

Mortyman · Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:12 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 102):
Per local media, pilots and cabin personnel are rumored to go with the suggested demands.

Per my local media, it is the opposite.

AirlineCritic · Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:30 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 104):
Per my local media, it is the opposite.

Yes... the situation changed. Now it says that the pilots left the contract, cabin personnel left the contract, that personnel are requested to take cash with them on the next trip, and that the planes have been fueled up so that they can be returned back to base if a bankruptcy comes tomorrow. Sigh. Looking bad.

LN-KGL · Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:47 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 103):
Is this a chapter 11 or 7 kind of bankruptcy?

The European Commision has a fine page describing the Swedish bankruptcy laws:
http://ec.europa.eu/civiljustice/bankruptcy/bankruptcy_swe_en.htm

From this a chapter 11 form of bankruptcy don't exist in Sweden - in fact all EU countries don't have a chapter 11 like form of bankruptcy.

CF-CPI · Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:00 pm

Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 106):
From this a chapter 11 form of bankruptcy don't exist in Sweden - in fact all EU countries don't have a chapter 11 like form of bankruptcy.

So what we are looking at is, bankruptcy = cease operations? As opposed to the US situation whereby the carrier can keep operating pending a reorganization plan. In Scandinavia, what is the path to liquidation of assets, and is that likely? Lord knows, those A330s could fetch a nice price.

Thunderboltdrgn · Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:22 pm

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 107):
So what we are looking at is, bankruptcy = cease operations?

That is up to the person we call konkursförvaltare (sort of means "bankruptcy manager").
When a company goes bankrupt the konkursförvaltare will take over the management
of the now bankrupt company. He/She will decide if and in that case how a company that
have applied for bankruptcy can continue with their businesses.*

If they can't continue this person is responsible for the disposing (selling) of all of the
bankrupt company's assets.

Have in mind though that i am far from an expert in this area so I am not
sure that the above is entirely correct.

However you can read the law at this url: https://lagen.nu/1987:672 (Swedish only)
You can also read about it here: http://www.domstol.se/Skuld--konkurs/Om-konkurs/ (Swedish only)

*I think in some cases bankrupted companies have continued with the business for
a while to see if there is any interest in buying the whole bankrupted
company. But usually the company ceases with the operations.

[Edited 2012-11-18 15:25:41]

prebennorholm · Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:03 am

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 108):
I think in some cases bankrupted companies have continued with the business for
a while to see if there is any interest in buying the whole bankrupted
company. But usually the company ceases with the operations.

I think that continued ops can happen only when all creditors agree upon it. Old debts are then frozen, and operation is continued on prepayment basis only. I don't think that is relevant in this situation.

I expect that either they come to agreements which meet the conditions for state guarantees for the old debts, and they continue ops. Or they stop right now. There is hardly a middle way.

But I'm not a bankruptcy expert.

CPHFF · Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:00 am

6 of 8 Unions have signed a new agreement early this morning. This is great news! 2 Unions are still trying to negotiate, including CAU (Danish Cabin Attendants Union). CAU and it's members have always been more loyal to them selves than SAS, so it will be interesting to see what pans out this morning.

Link to Aftonbladet (Swedish only)

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article15798122.ab

More to read here: Danish only

http://www.check-in.dk/newselement.cfm?nNewsArticleID=70202

[Edited 2012-11-18 23:01:59]

Kiwirob · Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:10 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 99):
Living in Norway hardly makes you an expert on the 3 different cultures. I am born in Sweden but I have worked in all 3 nations and I can assure you all three nations are different

I never said they were the same but variations.

Quoting CPHFF (Reply 110):
6 of 8 Unions have signed a new agreement early this morning. This is great news! 2 Unions are still trying to negotiate, including CAU (Danish Cabin Attendants Union).

Who is the 2nd union that hasn't signed up?

I hope this works, SAS has been a great airline, it could be again with decent management and assistance from there staff.

Kiwirob · Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:13 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 111):
Who is the 2nd union that hasn't signed up?

To answer my own question, and I should have known better it's the Norwegian cabin attendants union.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/11/19/pilot-unions-agree-to-sas-cuts/

CPHFF · Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:29 am

Well, the good news for passengers is that there are no cancellations from Copenhagen this morning. All flights listed until 12.00 (CET) appears to be flying.

I sure hope they make it through this, and give all the people that want SK to fold a real headache.

CPHFF · Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:47 am

Quoting okAY (Reply 95):
After this I am even more surprised you consider them alike. Maybe we Europeans understand the word culture differently than people from the new World. I'd say we have different working cultures within Finland, depending where you are from! I worked in a Nordic team while living in Stockholm, had a Dane as my boss and all the other Scandi nationalities were present, too

I worked with International Fleet Sales at Volvo in the 1990's. We used to have the following saying when comparing Danes and Finns:

We'd quote the Finnish customer for 1 car, and they say: We like the price, we'll take 50.

We'd quote the Danish customer for 50 cars, and they say: We like the price, we'll take 1.

Considering that 15% of the Swedish population are now 1st or 2nd generation Immigrants, Sweden and Swedish people are not the same culture as 20 years ago.

CPHFF · Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:53 am

Union for the cabin crew in Norway is now onboard.

Troublemaker CAU is the only one left.

Link: Dagens Industri (Swedish)

http://www.di.se/#!/artiklar/2012/11...-gang-hanger-det-pa-sas-brakstake/

chootie · Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:03 am

I hope that all the unions and staff come through on this. SAS was, and is a true icon and GREAT airline.
Wishing the best for all

sweair · Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:03 am

Will this really save SK in the long run, they have had a bad time for a very long time now. Maybe this was the wake up call for the unions?

I flew Norwegian this weekend, I can not see what so many hate about Norwegian, its perfectly fine to fly them IMO. I don't need coffee or a meal, on a short 4 hour flight, only makes me more dried out after 4 hours in a 5% moisture cabin.

SK should take a note out of Norwegians operation, they seem to do ok.

FlyingAY · Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:14 am

Quoting okAY (Reply 95):
After this I am even more surprised you consider them alike. Maybe we Europeans understand the word culture differently than people from the new World. I'd say we have different working cultures within Finland, depending where you are from! I worked in a Nordic team while living in Stockholm, had a Dane as my boss and all the other Scandi nationalities were present, too. And indeed I noticed the differences. And the proudness they carry in what they do. Oh well, I had one Aussie guy telling me he finds Europe boring as all the countries are alike...

There are differencies of course, but they're definitely in the same group. I work in a Nordics/Baltics unit of a large Swedish company and always find it easy to work with the Swedes, Danes and Norwegians. If we compare for example US and Nordics, or Middle East and Nordics the differencies are totally on a different scale than differencies between Danes and Swedes. However, there are many different cultures within one country - ie. Finnish Lapland might be more similar to Swedish Lapland than to Helsinki Metropolitan area... It's difficult to make generalizations that cover everything.

So it is one union left for SAS. I have the feeling that these paycuts are just life support that will prolonge the unevitable. I hope I'm wrong though. My family's Christmas holidays are booked on SAS, it seems to me now that they'll be around that time still.

seansasLCY · Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:39 am

Could SAS not now follow the example of Austrian, Iberia and Lufthansa in creating a seperate airline to take over staff and routes on a cheaper operation. Maybe a SAS express arm which eventually operates all flights.

I travel reguarly between London and Stockholm and almost always use BA or Ryanair. If booked in advance Ryanair can be as low as £10 each way (even though its to Skavsta) and if booking later BA is usually the same price as SAS and I get a sandwich onboard as well as T5 at LHR or LCY.

Kiwirob · Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:15 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 117):
SK should take a note out of Norwegians operation, they seem to do ok.

So you want Norwegians lousy on time performance and for me at least fantastic ability to lose luggage.

CPHFF · Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:24 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 120):
fantastic ability to lose luggage.

I believe the Airports (and ground handlers) are more responsible than Airlines when it comes to lost luggage. I have recorded 551 flights with SAS, and I have lost my luggade 21 times. How ever, 14 of those times have been on the CDG-CPH route............... 14 times out of 41 flights. Needless to say, I'm seldom allone waiting at the baggage carousel in CPH when arriving with SK from CDG.

Now, terminal 1 at CDG should be blown up and all the staff should be replaced, but I'll leave my experiences there for another thread.

[Edited 2012-11-19 04:26:19]

Someone83 · Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:03 pm

All the needed unions have now agreed. Then is it up to to board and banks to approve the result

LN-KGL · Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 120):
So you want Norwegians lousy on time performance and for me at least fantastic ability to lose luggage.

You must have been particularly unfortunate with your DY flights. I've only two flights where the luggage was lost; both flights were with SAS (inbound to OSL from MAN and from FRA). Sadly airlines don't report any numbers over lost luggage, and it is not possible to say clearly who's best (except for Ryanair - they just say they are loose the least bags

).

For punctuality it is much clearer, both SAS and Norwegian are reporting their own punctuality in their monthly traffic reports. Avinor is also measuring the punctuality at all Norwegian airports down to each flight number and in addition to this there is also some known independent measurement bodies. All these shows only a small difference between SAS and Norwegian with the regards to punctuality, and both airlines are among the top on time performers in Europe. It therefore seems again that you have been particularly unfortunate with your DY flights.

There is though a very clear difference between the two airlines; Norwegian has expressed that it is better to be late than to cancel a flight that may lead to many hours and even days of delay for the passengers. There is a very clear difference in regularity between the two airlines - SAS had a regularity of 98.8% the last 12 months while DY has 99.6% the same period.

Thunderboltdrgn · Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:30 pm

An expert or analyst giving his opinion about SAS future:
http://www.thelocal.se/44520/20121119/

Swedish tabloid Aftonbladet is posting an article with the what they claim is
the new salaries of SAS' employees:

SAS Swedish pilots:
average salary: ~65'000SEK
inexperienced f/o; ~ 25'000SEK
experienced captain up to ~ 95'000SEK

SAS Danish pilots: ~ 45'000-135'000SEK

SAS Norwegian pilots somewhere in-between the Swedish and Danish pilots.

Swedish Cabin crew: 140SEK/hour.

s

CPHFF · Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:41 am

There's been a lot of complaining from the Unions in the media this morning. They claim to have been "ambushed" by the SAS Management. Hu??

Isn't that exaclty what the Unions have been doing to SAS for the past 20 years? CAU (Danish Cabin Attendants Union) are now braggig on how they saved the Company. Jesus, they are the ones contributing to the rising costs since de-regulation.

Link in danish: http://www.cau.dk/nyheder/2012/pressemeddelelse-(1)

Glad to se that they got a taste of their own medicine. I'm so glad that SK i still flying. Let hope they can make it long-term as well.

[Edited 2012-11-19 23:43:01]

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