FLALEFTY
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 49):
As noted by a number of Indian members, the real "outrage" isn't coming from Air India, but "unnamed Aviation Ministry officials". So we really shouldn't be raking Air India management over the coals on this on, but greedy GoI officials looking for still more money to line their pockets.

Good point. But since AI is government-owned, the Aviation Ministry likely has a good bit of pull.

Also, there is more at stake for Boeing. For instance, the Indian military has ordered C-17s and P-8s. They also have have teased Boeing over the years with the potential of a fairly-large F-18E/F order. Of course, for the time being, that fighter order is with Dassault, but the Indians have a history of changing the rules of procurement deals on a whim.

You might be right, Boeing could find a good home for the 777LRs, but I think converted to freighters might be more marketable.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:34 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 49):
As noted by a number of Indian members, the real "outrage" isn't coming from Air India, but "unnamed Aviation Ministry officials". So we really shouldn't be raking Air India management over the coals on this on, but greedy GoI officials looking for still more money to line their pockets.

The most likely culprit is a journalist who needed a news story, not a ministry official.

Quoting FLALEFTY (Reply 48):
But as we all are aware, AI, like most other international airlines, has struggled due to the global economic recession. Due to these circumstances, AI has been suffering from "buyer's remorse". But due to pressuring Boeing for delay compensation, rather than order modifications & cancellations, they are still on the hook for a large fleet of 787s that they don't really need. So this has led them to use negative publicity over the early-service teething problems to force Boeing into more compensation.

AI considered cancelling 1/2 the order last year, however they decided to take the whole order because they needed all the aircraft.

Routes like SYD, MEL, NBO, DAR, and PEK have been sitting on the backburner for a long time waiting for these aircraft - I don't think there is any doubt that AI can find uses for 787s when the time comes.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 37):
As usual, any AI topic brings out all the AI bashers on this forum (who seem to be growing in numbers day by day)....but you take the cake my friend.....why would any Indian official recite the " wonders of the Il-86/Il-96" when not a single airline in India has ever used any Russian planes at all....? You really need to back up your claims with some solid articles before you go on an AI/India rant of your own, just because it's become a trend these days on a.net........

To anybody who doesn't deal with the Indian aviation sector on a day to day basis, AI looks like a ridiculously dysfunctional airline. And because of that, it almost seems rational to be an AI basher.

Only those who understand the power structure and various agendas being pushed in the Indian Aviation sector and within AI can even dream of understanding why things happen the way they do.

Bargaining over compensation through the press is not something AI does by choice, but rather because AI is owned by the people and therefore must disclose every tiny detail.

And thanks to our sensationalist press, each one of those tiny details gets blown out of proportion.
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mffoda
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:27 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 44):
There was a thread 2 weeks ago re a JAL 787 that was delayed about 24 hours at BOS due to an inoperative PA system.
2 JAL 787s At Boston Now (by chrisnh Nov 12 2012 in Civil Aviation)

And ANA's inaugural flight from SEA was delayed 24 hours due to a mechanical problem.
http://www.komonews.com/news/boeing/...Seattle-Tokyo-route-172149751.html

ANA also had a 787 flight from FRA cancelled last January due to some technical problem.
ANA B-787 Stuck In Frankfurt AOG (by luxair_ca Jan 26 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Since your so big on ANA, Why not look at it Dispatch Reliability over a period that Matters (a year)? Where the Airline says they have dispatch reliability of 99.3% for the first year.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.as...ccea95-7c7a-4ec6-8612-cf2644b31831

http://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/...one-year-of-boeing-787-operations/
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zeke
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:02 am

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 10):

Yes. JAL and ANA have both praised the 787s performance, in fact ANA did a top of order for it.

To be fair, is that actually true ? I thought the additional order was not for the type they were currently operating, it was for the 787-9 ?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):

Add UA, ET, and LA like theirs, too. LO is to begin operatioing the B-787 this month. So far, about 33 aircraft have been dlivered to about 8 airlines, including AI. Only AI has complained about operating the B-787.

You cannot infer from that that they have been problem free. I would suggest it is more to the way they have planned their airlines EIS to allow for problems to be solved, this could as simple as having an increased turn around time so people can learn about the new aircraft.

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 14):

Every new aircraft entering service experiences some snags, else the airframers would not send out large support teams to each new customer airline to assist with entry into service. No difference whether A, B, C or E.

Yes, and it takes a lot of planning and investment on the airlines behalf to introduce a new aircraft. You cannot expect anything to be perfect, that is why service recovery has to be part of the EIS planning.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 16):
No one else seem to be having the problems that AI is having, there fore this would seem as a way for AI to try to get something for nothing.

Other airlines have had problems, but they have obviously expected to have some, so they have the resources in place ready for that. Not sure if you have been to Japan, going to one of their airports, everything works, go to a similar airport in the states, they do not have the same pride in their work, a lot of things a broken. Go to an airport in India, and the difference is black and white.

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 25):
Uhhh what? A 380 was and is not immune to issues at EIS.
Alternate Brake System
Both T900 and GP7200 Engines have operational glitches (including in flight shut downs)
Microcracks in the wings.
System software issues (nuisance warnings)
Main Gear steering system.

The A380 has been in service now for over 5 years, that is 5 years worth of problems. The EIS was very smooth, in part that was due to the large amount of testing that was done prior to EIS.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
ANA has had increasing dispatch reliability with only 96.3% in January of 2012 (google it, the links I found were competing blogs).

96.3% is not fantastic, however not that bad. As long as it is trending to improve, that is what you want.
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mayor
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:04 am

Seems to me that the biggest problem, here, is AI's attitude and how they are handling the problem, as opposed to the other operators of the 787. The other carriers may, indeed, be having the SAME problems as AI, but they'd rather work with Boeing and fix them. AI would rather shift the blame to Boeing instead of just getting the job done.
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EK413
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:17 am

I might just sit around and wait until ANA, JAL, Ethiopian, UA, QR, LA come back with a
"Unhappy with the performance of the swanky new Boeing 787 “Dreamliner” aircraft due to “recurring technical snags” complaint...

Seriously AI and their management are an absolute joke making fools of the so called national carrier...

EK413
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mffoda
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:18 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 53):
To be fair, is that actually true ? I thought the additional order was not for the type they were currently operating, it was for the 787-9 ?

Tell me zeke, is it possible to operate a 787-9 now? I think you are reaching on this one.   

Quoting zeke (Reply 53):
The A380 has been in service now for over 5 years, that is 5 years worth of problems. The EIS was very smooth, in part that was due to the large amount of testing that was done prior to EIS.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
ANA has had increasing dispatch reliability with only 96.3% in January of 2012 (google it, the links I found were competing blogs).

96.3% is not fantastic, however not that bad. As long as it is trending to improve, that is what you want.

That 96.3% was for One month... For the Whole year 99.3%! Not bad huh?

Incidently, AF is recently claiming a 97% DR for their A380's.
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flood
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:26 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 56):
That 96.3% was for One month... For the Whole year 99.3%! Not bad huh?

The 99.3% figure refers to "flight operation rate", as indicated in your second link. I don't think this is measured the same way as dispatch reliability?
 
mffoda
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:32 am

Quoting flood (Reply 57):
I don't think this is measured the same way as dispatch reliability?

I think it does, as it was reported in other threads (including the other link in my previous post).

As a matter of fact, RR created their own news bite off of that report, claiming their T-1000 had a 99.9% DR over that period.
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roseflyer
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:34 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 12):
A) The A380 didn't really have them, it had a very smooth service entry.

I don't think any airplane is immune to issues but most airlines got spoiled with the 777. One could argue with the crack problem that the A380 had the worst EIS since the A320 and the 787 is hardly any better.
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aeroblogger
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:38 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 54):
Seems to me that the biggest problem, here, is AI's attitude and how they are handling the problem, as opposed to the other operators of the 787. The other carriers may, indeed, be having the SAME problems as AI, but they'd rather work with Boeing and fix them. AI would rather shift the blame to Boeing instead of just getting the job done.

I don't see any evidence to back up this argument.

When AI was facing a cargo door problem, management/maintenance consulted with the Boeing experts stationed in India and implemented a solution.

When AI was facing a problem with the air conditioning system, management/maintenance consulted with the Boeing experts stationed in India and the US, and implemented a solution.

When AI was facing a problem with some electronics, management/maintenance consulted with the Boeing experts stationed in India and the US, and implemented a solution.

When AI was facing some problems with the engines, management/maintenance consulted with the GE experts and implemented a solution.

I fail to see how this is significantly different in any way from the other operators deal with new fleet teething issues.
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flood
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:39 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 58):
I think it does, as it was reported in other threads (including the other link in my previous post).

I recall the "99.3%" figure in another thread as well, but it was also based on these tables depicting "flight operation rate".

With regards to your other link, note she cites Adrian Schofield. Yet if you look at his article, he also uses the same table - with no mention of "dispatch reliability". Again, only "flight operation rate":

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.as...81152f-1546-4783-a28c-2f5da21e5c5f

Quoting mffoda (Reply 58):
As a matter of fact, RR created their own news bite off of that report, claiming their T-1000 had a 99.9% DR over that period.

Sure, but that obviously only refers to the engines.
 
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:00 am

Quoting flood (Reply 61):
Quoting mffoda (Reply 58):
As a matter of fact, RR created their own news bite off of that report, claiming their T-1000 had a 99.9% DR over that period.

Sure, but that obviously only refers to the engines.

Well the RR press release followed the ANA briefing stating the overall ANA 787 rate of 99.3% for the year.

One would think? that the very high RR rate was one of the main contributing factors in the overall rate that ANA briefed.

"ANA CEO and President Shinichiro Ito said “ANA is delighted with the performance of the 787′s in its fleet over the course of the last year. The 787 benefits from strong fuel efficiency with high dispatch reliability"

Notice he didn't say Average or expected dispatch reliability...
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mayor
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:07 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 60):
Quoting mayor (Reply 54):Seems to me that the biggest problem, here, is AI's attitude and how they are handling the problem, as opposed to the other operators of the 787. The other carriers may, indeed, be having the SAME problems as AI, but they'd rather work with Boeing and fix them. AI would rather shift the blame to Boeing instead of just getting the job done.
I don't see any evidence to back up this argument.

Maybe I should clarify.......I'm talking about in this particular case, not past problems that they've had. In this particular instance, they seem to be handling it much differently than they have with other problems they've had, at least according to you.
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aeroblogger
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 63):
Maybe I should clarify.......I'm talking about in this particular case, not past problems that they've had. In this particular instance, they seem to be handling it much differently than they have with other problems they've had, at least according to you.

The current (electronics) issues are being handled no differently than the other teething problems AI has faced. AI is working with the Boeing resources provided in India and the US to troubleshoot the problem and find effective solutions.

Some nameless official (or journalist) making noises about "summoning top brass" does not change AI Engineering's process of rectifying technical issues in any way.
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flood
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:11 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 62):
One would think? that the very high RR rate was one of the main contributing factors in the overall rate that ANA briefed.

Yes, but it simply doesn't speak for the aircraft as a whole.

Unless ANA or the industry have a differing and set definition for "flight operation rate", to me it merely speaks for a route having been successfully operated by an aircraft. In other words, 10 legs scheduled to be operated by a 787 and none of the flights were canceled/subbed with another type due to mx, and you get a FO rate of 100%. However, if two of those flights left the gate 30 minutes late due to a technical glitch, the DR would be only 80%.
 
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:29 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 64):
Some nameless official (or journalist) making noises about "summoning top brass"

If this is a fact and Boeing chooses to respond they should tell AI that they have a team in India that is providing the technical support as contracted for and that they have no evidence that the team is having any difficulty assisting in solving issues.
If Boeing sends someone it should be a relatively minor official to get the point across that when AI or its political master say's jump they are not responding with "how high".
Also the person sent should fly with another carrier to reinforce the point.

[Edited 2012-11-24 18:31:14]
 
aeroblogger
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:51 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 67):
If this is a fact and Boeing chooses to respond they should tell AI that they have a team in India that is providing the technical support as contracted for and that they have no evidence that the team is having any difficulty assisting in solving issues.
If Boeing sends someone it should be a relatively minor official to get the point across that when AI or its political master say's jump they are not responding with "how high".
Also the person sent should fly with another carrier to reinforce the point.

I agree 100%.

AI must follow the procedure set to troubleshoot teething issues - first try to solve it within the company, then via the support Boeing has sent to India, and then via Boeing in the US if the Indian team cannot sort it out. This is the same procedure AI has used for all the other issues faced so far. Note that summoning top brass is nowhere in that list.

Summoning top brass over teething issues is absolutely ridiculous. However, I get the feeling that this article is rubbish...
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MaverickM11
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:55 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
QR took delivery of their third 787-8 last week and AAB isn't chewing on glass about them, so that alone must be proof the 787 is perfect.

   I'm sure he'll find something.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 36):
Japanese CEOs won't say anything positive if there is an issue.

Yeah they bring in a foreigner to say there's a problem and then fire him for stating the obvious ala Olympus 
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mffoda
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:03 am

Quoting flood (Reply 65):
Quoting mffoda (Reply 62):
One would think? that the very high RR rate was one of the main contributing factors in the overall rate that ANA briefed.

Yes, but it simply doesn't speak for the aircraft as a whole.

Unless ANA or the industry have a differing and set definition for "flight operation rate", to me it merely speaks for a route having been successfully operated by an aircraft. In other words, 10 legs scheduled to be operated by a 787 and none of the flights were canceled/subbed with another type due to mx, and you get a FO rate of 100%. However, if two of those flights left the gate 30 minutes late due to a technical glitch, the DR would be only 80%.

Flood, go back and have another look at the table in the airline repoter thread. It is in fact talking about DR.

Flight Operation Rate = Dispatch Reliability

The easiest way to confirm this, is by their own comparison to the rest of their fleet. See the last line of the table ( ) is the average of all ANA flights. I cut and pasted the table below, but the format is less then to be desired...

The 98.8% overall DR/"FOR" is very consistent with what one would expect for airline like ANA. I don't know how else you could explain the 787's higher "FOR" then the rest of the fleet, If it wasn't a direct comparison in DR.



http://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/...one-year-of-boeing-787-operations/

Operation Data of Boeing 787 during the year

Flight Numbers

Flight Operation Rate

On-time Departure Rate

Passenger Numbers

Passenger Load Factor

Domestic Routes

8,409

99.3%

94.5%

1,721,951

72.8%

International Routes

565

99.6%

83.6%

74,340

82.6%

Total

8,974

99.3% (98.8%)

93.8% (93.8%)

1,796,291

73.2% (66.4%)

( ) is the average of all ANA flights
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aeroblogger
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:30 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 70):
Flight Operation Rate = Dispatch Reliability

FOR ≠ DR, by definition.
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mffoda
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:37 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 71):
FOR ≠ DR, by definition.

Cute  

But, as intended it does...
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zeke
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:52 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 56):
Tell me zeke, is it possible to operate a 787-9 now? I think you are reaching on this one.

Not at all, the comment was made that they were so impressed with the airframe they made a repeat order, they ordered additional 787s, however not a repeat of what they are currently operating. It would be like saying a 737-700 operator was so impressed with the 737-700 they made a repeat order with 737-900s, different models, different capabilities and economics.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 56):

That 96.3% was for One month... For the Whole year 99.3%! Not bad huh?

That is good, however it does not mean it did 99.3 % of the flights it was scheduled to do. They can put an aircraft into maintenance and substitute it with another and it does not change the dispatch reliability.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 56):

Incidently, AF is recently claiming a 97% DR for their A380's.

Yep, and several other airlines say they have gone for months with 100% dispatch reliability, it only tells part of the picture. It does not infer how available an aircraft is over a period of time. An aircraft can be dispatched for 1 flight a month and have a 100% dispatch reliability, and still be the hanger for 29 days unavailable due to maintenance.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 58):
As a matter of fact, RR created their own news bite off of that report, claiming their T-1000 had a 99.9% DR over that period.

Yet we also know that gearbox issues had the fleet grounded for a while. that does not factor into dispatch reliability.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 59):
One could argue with the crack problem that the A380 had the worst EIS since the A320 and the 787 is hardly any better.

The A380 ribs took over 4 years to develop, no one will say that is an EIS issue.
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flyPBA
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:57 am

are these problem 787s all from South Carolina?
 
worldrider
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:35 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 36):
Japanese CEOs won't say anything positive if there is an issue.

Yeah they bring in a foreigner to say there's a problem and then fire him for stating the obvious ala Olympus
[/quote]

well.. maybe the 787 is not that foreign to a japanese.. how much of the frame is actually built in Japan??   
 
aeroblogger
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:02 pm

Quoting flyPBA (Reply 73):
are these problem 787s all from South Carolina?

787s from Washington have also faced teething issues.

[Edited 2012-11-25 08:03:21]
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roseflyer
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:04 pm

I see some people posting dispatch reliability numbers. I caution anyone against comparing numbers from different sources. Dispatch reliability is actually very hard to calculate. Everyone calculates it differently.

First off, what amount of delay impacts numbers. Some airlines use Delay-0 (airplane not ready at departure time), others use Delay - 15 (15 minute or more delay), others use Arrival - 14 (arrives within 14 minutes of scheduled arrival (DOT standard).

Secondly, what is classified as an airplane delay and what is operational delay? Does a passenger spilling on a seat cushion and causing it to have to be replaced an airplane or operational problem? Does a baggage can hitting the sidewall of the cargo bin and requiring it to be replaced count against the airplane or ramp operations? Each airline does it differently. Airplane interior problems are the most frequent cause of delays due to deferrals and part replacements, so how these are counted makes a big difference.

Thirdly, where are airport operation and weather delays factor in? DOT statistics count weather, airport, etc delay factors in when calculating Arrivals-14 data.

Boeing and Airbus filter data and compare airplane dispatch rates. However again it is hard to compare different airlines.

So be very cautious when you compare the statistics because they are virtually meaningless comparisons.
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roseflyer
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 72):

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 59):
One could argue with the crack problem that the A380 had the worst EIS since the A320 and the 787 is hardly any better.

The A380 ribs took over 4 years to develop, no one will say that is an EIS issue.

The standard warranties that Boeing and Airbus issue cover all defects within 3 years, and any significant design defect that impacts the safety of the airplane. The wing cracks fall under the warranty of the airplane, so I considered them comparable, but I certainly understand someone not considering them EIS. In my opinion Air India is talking about problems under warranty, so that's why I mentioned it.
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BandA
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:23 pm

Quote:
The image has suffered at the hands of functioning aircraft as well...

And we all know that the AI image post 787 was great. Is this their first brand new airplane (and type) purchase?

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20):
What you are referencing is our sensationalist press, which takes random comments, often out of context, and makes a massive story out of them.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 18):
Please stop taking these kinds of comments at face value.

Deccan Chronicle's "top aviation sources" are rubbish, if their past claims are any indicator.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20):
What you are referencing is our sensationalist press, which takes random comments, often out of context, and makes a massive story out of them.

A.net needs to learn to take our press less seriously.

And if anyone needs any proof of this, just tune-in to any Indian news channels on dish or youtube them.
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BLRAviation
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:29 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
If the complaints came from a competent airline, you might have a point.

I am, by no measure, considered an Air India loyalist, but I must point out that AI engineering has always been rated high in terms of their maintenance and capabilities. Commercial strategy wise I agree with you.

Even the cabin crew on a recent flight told me that there are issues that are constantly plaguing the fleet, and this is with Boeing, GE, and other major sub-systems engineers being on duty at Delhi and the other stations.

There some issues affecting the fleet.
I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
 
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zeke
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:14 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 76):
I see some people posting dispatch reliability numbers. I caution anyone against comparing numbers from different sources. Dispatch reliability is actually very hard to calculate. Everyone calculates it differently.

Even the delay codes and times pilots use often do not line up with what ground staff use. They see different sides of the same picture.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 77):
The standard warranties that Boeing and Airbus issue cover all defects within 3 years, and any significant design defect that impacts the safety of the airplane. The wing cracks fall under the warranty of the airplane, so I considered them comparable, but I certainly understand someone not considering them EIS. In my opinion Air India is talking about problems under warranty, so that's why I mentioned it.

Entry into service is also covered in the purchase contract, they are not the same as warranties. Airlines generally have to pay extra for the OEMs people to be made available, and normally they are only provided at their main base. Warranties are not always 3 years, especially for launch customers. The OEMs limit their liability in return for the lower purchase price. A number of A380s were out of their warranty period, Airbus however is covering the cost of the parts and design for all customers, including those out of warranty.

New aircraft types to an airlines are a learning experience for all involved.
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kanban
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:40 pm

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 79):
There some issues affecting the fleet.

since you have talked to these people, were the responses just ambiguous problems, or did they have specifics? This is where we're having problems with creditability.. third hand comments without supporting detail.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:08 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20):

A.net needs to learn to take our press less seriously.

Everyone needs to take press worldwide with a bal;anced view...there are very few aviation reporters that know their job.... 
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
goacom
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:07 am

As the article summaries suggest, AI seems to be engaged in a deliberate campaign to attack Boeing in an attempt to cover its own failings. This is not some one off news reporter exaggerating the alleged comments by some junior AI manager.

Dreamliner glitch: AI summons Boeing team
Hindustan Times - ‎Nov 25, 2012‎
Stung by persistent snags in its Boeing 787 Dreamliner fleet, Air India (AI) has summoned a team of Boeing engineers to India ahead of the state-of-the-art aircraft's planned maiden flight in AI's Delhi-London route on December 2. “A team of engineers from Boeing are expected to come to. India shortly ... But the futuristic aircraft, which came after a delay of almost four years, have been plagued by what sources have described as “teething problems”. In one of its first flights from New Delhi to Bangalore in September, ...


Dreamliner fleet: Boeing team inspect snags
Financial Express - ‎Nov 24, 2012‎
New Delhi: A team of Boeing engineers will be here next week to inspect snags in the swanky Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft which Air India is planning to deploy on Delhi-London route from December 2. "The Boeing team is coming to inspect and certify the Dreamliner planes as we ... they said these were "teething problems" which occur in new aircrafts. Even All Nippon Airlines, which was the first airline to take the delivery of the carbon-composite material-made Dreamliner aircraft, faced some problems, they said.


AI summons Boeing brass for poor 787s
The Asian Age - ‎Nov 24, 2012‎
Unhappy with the performance of the swanky new Boeing 787 “Dreamliner” aircraft due to “recurring technical snags”, a furious civil aviation ministry and Air India have summoned Boeing Corporation's top brass to India, top aviation sources told this newspaper. Sources said of the three Dreamliners received so far, one or the other ... “There were no problems like this when the airline received the Boeing 777s a few years ago,” sources added. Air India had initially deployed the aircraft for important domestic routes ...


Air India summons Boeing brass for poor 787s
Deccan Chronicle - ‎Nov 24, 2012‎
Unhappy with the performance of the swanky new Boeing 787 “Dreamliner” aircraft due to “recurring technical snags”, a furious civil aviation ministry and Air India have summoned Boeing Corporation's top brass to India, top aviation sources told this newspaper. Sources said of the three Dreamliners received so far, one or the other ... “There were no problems like this when the airline received the Boeing 777s a few years ago,” sources added. Air India had initially deployed the aircraft for important domestic routes ...


AI worried Boeing snags will affect airline image
Deccan Chronicle - ‎Nov 23, 2012‎
Sources said Air India had conveyed to Boeing that the image of the airline could take a severe beating if snags kept occurring. AI's domestic market share has been increasing steadily over the past few months and an ambitious plan of international flight expansion was also worked out earlier. The airline had earlier ordered for a total of 27 Boeing 787 dreamliner aircraft. The delivery ... “There were no problems like this when the airline received the Boeing 777s a few years ago,” sources added. AI had deployed the ...


Ai fumes at boeing over snags in 787
The Asian Age - ‎Nov 23, 2012‎
Unhappy with the performance of the swanky new Boeing 787 “Dreamliner” aircraft due to “recurring technical snags”, a furious civil aviation ministry and Air India have summoned Boeing Corpora-tion's top brass to India, top aviation sources told this ...



The real issue it seems is that AI does not seem to have qualified pilots to fly these planes. So much for the ridiculous hope that the 787 could somehow save AI!


Instructors leave city, AI pilots left untrained
Hindustan Times
National carrier Air India's plan to operate Boeing 787, the fuel-efficient Dreamliner aircraft, on the Mumbai-London and Delhi-Melbourne-Sydney routes is not likely to take-off this year as pilot training for aircraft stopped abruptly on Wednesday. According to ...
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-F...eft-untrained/Article1-964802.aspx


Meanwhile the feuding between the "guaranteed employment" for life unions continues.

Govt reviews Dreamliner training plan
Times of India - ‎Nov 24, 2012‎
NEW DELHI: On the day TOI reported complete trust deficit between erstwhile Air India and Indian Airlines pilots that has led to IA pilots refusing to get trained on the new Boeing 787 Dreamliner by their AI counterparts, the government acted and set in motion ...
http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...mliner-dgca-indian-airlines-pilots
 
N766UA
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:27 am

Quoting babybus (Reply 6):
Has any airline actually sung the praises of the 787?

A few have, JAL and ANA in particular have commented about its performance and reliability being better than expected.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:00 am

Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
As the article summaries suggest, AI seems to be engaged in a deliberate campaign to attack Boeing in an attempt to cover its own failings. This is not some one off news reporter exaggerating the alleged comments by some junior AI manager.

AI has requested further support from Boeing after the resources Boeing provided in India could not solve the issues. This is exactly what is supposed to happen. With Boeing's assistance, these teething issues will hopefully be resolved, and life will go on.

As the HT article you quoted mentioned, AI has requested help from a team of Boeing engineers. NOT Boeing's top brass, like the article linked in OP (ridiculously) stated.
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:50 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 85):
As the HT article you quoted mentioned, AI has requested help from a team of Boeing engineers

Thus Is it reasonable to infer from this that there are no Boeing support persons in India to help AI work through any problems?
 
aeroblogger
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:25 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 86):
Thus Is it reasonable to infer from this that there are no Boeing support persons in India to help AI work through any problems?

No, it is reasonable to infer that the support Boeing has provided in India was not sufficient.

Boeing has stationed a small group to aid in the induction of the new fleet type.
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kanban
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:37 am

Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
The real issue it seems is that AI does not seem to have qualified pilots to fly these planes. So much for the ridiculous hope that the 787 could somehow save AI!

I seem to recall that this was a major problem resulting from the absorption of the domestic airline by the international and giving training preference to the domestic pilots and subsequent labor issues such as international pilot walkouts..
 
DrColenzo
Posts: 155
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:44 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 37):
As usual, any AI topic brings out all the AI bashers on this forum (who seem to be growing in numbers day by day).

Thank you.

I am damn proud of being an Air India basher, or indeed a basher of any poorly run state owned airlines that are interfered with by bureaucrats on a regular basis!!

Let's see what problems Jet Airways has with the 787 when its order starts being delivered in 2015  

Anyone on this forum who knows India well and has spent time in India will realise that it is a country of industrious people waiting to be set free from the bureaucrats laden with inferiority issues about being Indian - being born in India and have the freedom to make the most of oneself in an industrious nation isn't something to ashamed of and held back and it is something to be celebrated. Hence my recollection of a bureaucrat espousing the virtues of the Il86/92* in the early 1990s not because they were any good, but because they were not American and therefore 'better for the nation'...did Air India buy any? Did they hell because they were crap!!! Did the same idiots in Delhi have a pop at the 747-400? Of course they did!!!!!!

Tell you what, if a company like Tata ever gets around to building a 300 seat wide body, maybe powered by indigenous engines and if it works brilliantly, I bet you that politicians in London, Washington or Moscow won't give a toss about BA, United or Aeroflot using the aircraft.

This is not about the 787, it is about Indian politicians and their pet, Air India, which should be sold off and allowed to face the market fairly, then we will see how good it really is  





*(LOOK AT THE TIMES OF INDIA AND SEARCH IN THE 1990S - AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT IS ONLY A RECOLLECTION, BUT I REMEMBER READING THAT NONSENSE IN MY YOUNGER DAYS)
 
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par13del
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:18 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 87):
No, it is reasonable to infer that the support Boeing has provided in India was not sufficient.
Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
Instructors leave city, AI pilots left untrained
Hindustan Times
National carrier Air India's plan to operate Boeing 787, the fuel-efficient Dreamliner aircraft, on the Mumbai-London and Delhi-Melbourne-Sydney routes is not likely to take-off this year as pilot training for aircraft stopped abruptly on Wednesday. According to ...
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-F....aspx

I speculate that the instructors left early because they could not train, not because they did not know how to train.
Th article actually says nothing about what the problem is, other than they will not be able to fly the 787 on their preferred route, it does mention how long the instructors were hired for then goes on to ask why they "let them go" early.
Does the just ended pilot strike and resolutions to be implemented have anything to do with this issue, until the investigative reporters "get in there" and are allowed to publish the facts we can only bash Boeing for a poor a/c or AI for a poorly run airline, in the meantime the truth falls victim.
 
swallow
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:16 pm

Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
The real issue it seems is that AI does not seem to have qualified pilots to fly these planes
Quoting kanban (Reply 88):
I seem to recall that this was a major problem resulting from the absorption of the domestic airline by the international and giving training preference to the domestic pilots

Or is it the other way round; a set of AI pilots has been trained, but IA pilots are lagging behind
The grass is greener where you water it
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:43 pm

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 89):
Did they hell because they were crap!!! Did the same idiots in Delhi have a pop at the 747-400? Of course they did!!!!!!

Some things never change, which is why AI's complaints are not taken seriously. Now LH on the other hand... The vendors listen. No one denies the chief mechanic at LH his phone time...

Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
that has led to IA pilots refusing to get trained on the new Boeing 787 Dreamliner by their AI counterparts, the government acted and set in motion ...

AI should fly them to Seattle so they may be properly trained. Or wherever has seats.

Quoting swallow (Reply 91):
Or is it the other way round; a set of AI pilots has been trained, but IA pilots are lagging behind

All indications are the AI pilots are trying to prevent the other side from being trained. Childish... but it will continue.

Lightsaber
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ytz
Posts: 3529
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:55 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20):
AI management does not throw public tantrums.

What you are referencing is our sensationalist press, which takes random comments, often out of context, and makes a massive story out of them.

A.net needs to learn to take our press less seriously.

I'd buy that if AI's management and the Indian government hadn't thrown tantrums for months and tried to get the 787s for free....
 
rcair1
Posts: 1147
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:26 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 82):
there are very few aviation reporters that know their job....

there are very few .deleted. reporters that know their job

Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
in the swanky Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft
Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
of the swanky new Boeing 787 “Dreamliner” aircraft
Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
performance of the swanky new Boeing 787 “Dreamliner”

These 3 news reports cause an immediate drop in credibility.
First - why are they calling the a/c 'swanky' - it is strange term.
swanky: expensive and showy; stylish; boastful or conceited

In this context, the term is clearly derogatory. If you take it at its face value - then the question becomes, why is AI wasting money on a "swanky" aircraft.

Second - for this term to show up in 3 articles means it is 1 article running in 3 papers - so it is not a credible emphasis of the problem - it is simply newspapers picking something up off the wire. If it is poor reporting - and it is repeated - that does not make it less 'poor' reporting.

Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
year as pilot training for aircraft stopped abruptly on Wednesday.
Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
pilots refusing to get trained on the new Boeing 78

There is no "Boeing" reason for this - this is pure company politics. No - I can't point to proof, but it is a reasonable surmise based on the data presented.

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 89):
is a country of industrious people waiting to be set free from the bureaucrats laden with inferiority issues about being Indian

Yes - I work with Indian's regularly. Those in professional careers (like a/c) are generally hard working, well educated, ambitious and willing to learn and correct missteps. If there is an issue - they tend to be less than 'faithful' to a company - but hey - no big deal there. Most places where people are trying to advance are like that.

However, they must work 'around' the government and bureaucratic mess. BTW - the ones I work with tend not to be unionized - and we do pay them well.
rcair1
 
aeroblogger
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:53 am

RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:11 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 90):
I speculate that the instructors left early because they could not train, not because they did not know how to train.

Correct. The 2 pilots unions are being childish and blocking training, so training has been put on hold. Sufficient pilots have been trained for current schedule anyway.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 94):
Second - for this term to show up in 3 articles means it is 1 article running in 3 papers - so it is not a credible emphasis of the problem - it is simply newspapers picking something up off the wire. If it is poor reporting - and it is repeated - that does not make it less 'poor' reporting.

If you notice, goacom cited the same article (on the same website) twice! And the 3rd article is just another paper picking up the first article...

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 94):

There is no "Boeing" reason for this - this is pure company politics.

  
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kanban
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:39 pm

wonder if we looked at "C" series testing days and deliveries and found they correspond to the days the delivered birds didn't fly...

     
 
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135mech
Posts: 411
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RE: Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s

Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:52 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 10):
Your Boeing bashing is getting tiring.

Well said! Sadly, they won't stop whining...EVER! AI needs to give up flying!

135mech
135Mech

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