Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad

G500 · Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:03 pm

Wow.... Airbus jabs Boeing "below the belt"....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...s-planemaker-rivalry-sharpens.html

Stitch · Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:05 pm

Whatever. Listen in on some of John Leahey's presentations some time (they're on YouTube) and you'll see that Geppetto is pulling his strings, as well.

CalebWilliams · Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:25 pm

Quote:
“The truth about these claims is that neither side knows,” said Richard Aboulafia, vice president of consultant Teal Group in Fairfax, Virginia. “These are engine-driven aircraft,” and until they have been fully developed and start tests, it’s impossible to know what they can offer, he said.

That's all that need be said.

PlaneInsomniac · Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
Wow.... Airbus jabs Boeing "below the belt"....

Is this for real? Shameless, unnecessary, and embarrassing - for Airbus. Aren't there some wing cracks to fix in Toulouse?

LY777 · Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:56 pm

That's childish IMO. Airbus must be jealous that Boeing is about to rebecome the leader

1337Delta764 · Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:56 pm

I hope Boeing sees this and files a lawsuit against Airbus for product defamation.

lostsound · Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:57 pm

It's not personal, it's business.

Boeing and Airbus have been jabbing each-other for years.
Why this is important, I don't really know.

Doesn't change my view about either manufacturers.

JAAlbert · Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:11 pm

The article states that Airbus is concerned that "less sophisticated airlines" might actually believe the Boeing sales pitch and not visit the Airbus showroom. Yet, in the same article Airbus claims its 320 family and 380 are market leaders and the 320NEO has about 600 more orders on the books than does the 737MAX. It seems Airbus is doing a good job reaching the airlines.

Also, honestly, any airline that buys a billion dollars worth of planes based solely on print advertising proffered by either manufacturer deserves what it gets. I can't believe any airline would pay the slightest bit of attention to such advertising.

wedgetail737 · Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:14 pm

This is coming from a company whose executives have been investigated and arrested for insider trading, illegal subs and bribery.

G500 · Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:16 pm

Agree, this is business, not personal

However, this ad SAYS A LOT MORE ABOUT AIRBUS THAN IT DOES ABOUT BOEING...

Airbus is showing their frustration. They've been able to beat Boeing in the narrow-body market, but as far as the wide-body market, Airbus will never build a more succesful plane than the 777 pax/freighter.. And the 787 looks like it might be a winner as well

mham001 · Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:19 pm

Next time the A people come whining about some statement the Boeing salesman said on an obscure blog.....

FI642 · Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
However, this ad SAYS A LOT MORE ABOUT AIRBUS THAN IT DOES ABOUT BOEING...

Airbus is showing their frustration. They've been able to beat Boeing in the narrow-body market, but as far as the wide-body market, Airbus will never build a more succesful plane than the 777 pax/freighter.. And the 787 looks like it might be a winner as well

Well said.

frmrCapCadet · Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 8):
This is coming from a company whose executives have been investigated and arrested for insider trading, illegal subs and bribery.

I think both builders have had their problems in this area.

The picture should be added to that long (plagarized evidently, and deleted) list of astounding Airbus quotes attackng Boeing. Does any one have a link to that list. Boeing does 'corporate speak' when it comments on Airbus - bland and boring.

UALWN · Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:35 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 8):
This is coming from a company whose executives have been investigated and arrested for insider trading, illegal subs and bribery.

I don't recall any arrest, but I may have forgotten. At Boeing, on the other hand, ...

http://tinyurl.com/cjy9b54

faddypainter · Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:57 pm

I don't know why a few people here are getting all in a huff over Airbus's rather obvious trolling of its rival. I for one like to see the personal side of companies like this having a dig at each other. Breaks up the usual bland, faceless corporate PR usually trotted out by OEMs and makes for a nice bit of light entertainment seeing them at each others throats.

I hope Boeing issues an equally beguiling gibe in response.

baldwin471 · Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:05 pm

Quoting FaddyPainter (Reply 14):

Agreed. People going way over the top here.

Acheron · Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:20 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):

Agree, this is business, not personal

However, this ad SAYS A LOT MORE ABOUT AIRBUS THAN IT DOES ABOUT BOEING...

Airbus is showing their frustration. They've been able to beat Boeing in the narrow-body market, but as far as the wide-body market, Airbus will never build a more succesful plane than the 777 pax/freighter.. And the 787 looks like it might be a winner as well

Just to refresh the memory of you and a few others:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrECbn7kttg

Deal with it, and move on.

roseflyer · Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:34 pm

I love the Airbus and Boeing rivalry. Airbus certainly makes their opinions public, although I'm not sure that "more sophisticated airlines" would buy an airplane because of a wider aisle, larger fan diameter engines and fly by wire. Those things are nice and great selling points, but any sophisticated airline will look at the real numbers.

I personally love the 737 vs A320 rivalry. Airbus always quotes the A320 efficiency in total trip costs under the assumption that the capacity is similar. Boeing always quotes the 737-800 efficiency in cost per seat under the assumption that the 737 has a 12 seat capacity advantage. Both try to color their airplanes in their favor and make the comparisons that show their airplane in the most favorable terms.

In the end, it's too early to really know how the airplanes will perform. Boeing just got to firm concept which means they are finally firming up the calculations for efficiency numbers.

Stitch · Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:44 pm

I'm not sure how wise it is to launch an advertisement in various airline trades that calls in to question the intelligence of airlines when it comes to purchasing airliners.

JAAlbert's comments are spot on - any airline with a real Operating Certificate doesn't buy solely based on the brochure numbers - especially the brochure numbers Airbus and Boeing tout in their advertisements (per seat cost / trip costs).

AirframeAS · Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 5):
I hope Boeing sees this and files a lawsuit against Airbus for product defamation.

If you read the article, they have seen it. But I do agree that they should sue.

But then again, it's competition...and it goes to show that they really, really, REALLY hate each other. The drama continues.......

Now this thread is now officially an A vs. B war, a first in a very, very long time! Welcome to the War.

I'm getting out the popcorn!

ThomasCook · Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:06 pm

Some of you are taking this as though Airbus has made a personal hit at you. See the funny side of it! On first glance, I have to say I thought it was hilarious. This kind of thing works both ways and is a trend throughout the industry.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 17):
although I'm not sure that "more sophisticated airlines" would buy an airplane because of a wider aisle

When it comes to the 787 vs A350, i'm sure the XWB will be a pivotal deciding factor for many carriers as it can mean the difference between 9 and 10 abreast.

ThomasCook

ATL · Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:08 pm

Quoting FaddyPainter (Reply 14):
Airbus's rather obvious trolling of its rival.

I don't think you're using that right

Also, really Airbus? Come on now

Burkhard · Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:20 pm

Not really adequate advertisement. Who at Airbus is responsible for spending money for such a junk ad, that just is not a serious way? This even does not convince MoL. So Airbus, fire those who are responsible for this - they are not worth a dollar per year.

Stitch · Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 20):
When it comes to the 787 vs A350, i'm sure the XWB will be a pivotal deciding factor for many carriers as it can mean the difference between 9 and 10 abreast.

That will be only of interest to charter operations like yourself.

Non-charter operators who want 10-abreast will be looking at the 777, 777X, 747 and A380.

[Edited 2012-11-27 11:30:37]

Beardown91737 · Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:46 pm

Just what we need. In the US, we haven't even had a month off from the political attack ads.

ZaphodB · Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
Airbus is showing their frustration. They've been able to beat Boeing in the narrow-body market, but as far as the wide-body market, Airbus will never build a more succesful plane than the 777 pax/freighter

never?

that's a mighty long time.

flood · Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:58 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
I'm not sure how wise it is to launch an advertisement in various airline trades that calls in to question the intelligence of airlines when it comes to purchasing airliners.

It's no different, really, to insulting the intelligence of one's customers at a presentation. This comes to mind, as reported by Aeroturbopower from ISTAT 2012:

"Boeing VP Marketing Randy Tinseth showed some fuel burn comparisons between Airbus and Boeing aircraft. To me it looked a little bit like comparing apples with oranges (for example he compared the B777-300ER with the A340-300). After the presentation there was a panel discussion and some Q&A time with the audience. A Virgin Atlantic fleet manager stood up there and called Randy's comparisons bullshit - not only the models which were compared but the numbers itself!"

http://aeroturbopower.blogspot.com/2...rce=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
But I do agree that they should sue.

For what? All else aside, you don't think Airbus' legal team ok'd the ad before release?

CM · Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:02 pm

Personally, I love it when the rivalry heats up. A few months ago, it was the companies accusing each other of "predatory pricing". Now it's a dispute over the veracity of performance claims (I think, more on this below). Who knows what will be next, or who will land a solid "blow" but mostly I find it quite entertaining.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
I'm getting out the popcorn!

This ad is nothing more than a byproduct of fierce competition. If the 737 MAX and 747-8 weren't relevant, Airbus wouldn't bother attacking them. It seems Boeing has truly touched a nerve in Toulouse, as this as is clearly more testosterone driven than cerebral. As such, this one is poorly thought out and makes Airbus look silly in several ways:

1. Someone in Airbus' marketing world forgot to include the punchline for the ad... they forgot to actually make their point by naming the so-called "stretched truths". By chickening out and not directly stating what Boeing claims they are calling lies, they've completely blunted the point of their message.

2. Airbus included one of their own most silly and hollow arguments as the centerpiece of their ad, stating the 737 MAX and 747-8 are "derivatives of 1960s designs". It's 100% true, but 100% meaningless to anyone who matters and implies something that's 100% false. That Airbus included this garbage in an ad about "exaggeration" and (ostensibly) truthfulness is truly ironic.

3. Airbus lost the high ground in the battle of decorum and professionalism. If Boeing chooses to respond with class, or to ignore Airbus as if they were not relevant, Boeing gets to look like the only adult in the room.

I'll be joining AirframeAS in the bleachers. Good entertainment is sure to follow this one!

AirframeAS · Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 26):
For what?

Trademark infringement (they used a 737Max nose) and slander, for starters.

Quoting flood (Reply 26):
All else aside, you don't think Airbus' legal team ok'd the ad before release?

Honestly, I don't know....at the same time, who knows. Anything is possible.

bigjku · Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:07 pm

Honestly the only thing to really say here is that there is a right way to do business and a wrong way to do business. Doing things the wrong way does not mean you won't be successful. It just means that if you falter, don't expect many people to be there looking to pick you back up. Instead they will be standing over you with shovels. That ad in and of itself is a waste of money. But in my view it is very bad business karma. The people who work with me are taught one major thing in sales. We don't talk about or worry about our competitors in front of customers.

hb88 · Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:41 pm

Good grief what a lot of bbbbbfanbois getting in a huff. As one poster pointed out, both companies occasionally have a shot at the other. It's just the rough and tumble of business. Get over it. Have a chuckle and move on.

Quoting CM (Reply 27):
Airbus lost the high ground in the battle of decorum and professionalism.

er... really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrECbn7kttg

twinotter · Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
Trademark infringement (they used a 737Max nose) and slander, for starters.

The 737 isn't "trademarked". You may take a picture of one and publish it here if you want to, even if you photoshop it to make it look silly in some regard. Boeing won't sue you.

Slander refers to oral defamation. If you think the ad is libelous, post the specific words that you think rise to that.

I don't know who's numbers are right, but the ad certainly caught peoples attention -- which means it is successful.

AirframeAS · Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:53 pm

Quoting twinotter (Reply 31):
Boeing won't sue you.

Yes, they will.... if you use it for a "for profit" gain like what Airbus is doing.

Quoting twinotter (Reply 31):
Slander refers to oral defamation.

And on paper as well, like this ad.

Quoting twinotter (Reply 31):
which means it is successful.

I disagree. It is only successful if Airbus got more orders than Boeing as a result of the ad itself.

Quoting CM (Reply 27):
I'll be joining AirframeAS in the bleachers. Good entertainment is sure to follow this one!

Awesome! Care for some popcorn, sir? LOL!

EPA001 · Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 16):
Just to refresh the memory of you and a few others:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrECb...7kttg

That is how it goes. One punch from the one os followed by one punch from the other. This is nothing more then that and in both cases it was done with a wink, so with a little humor.

Quoting CM (Reply 27):
Airbus lost the high ground in the battle of decorum and professionalism.

Rubbish.

Quoting hb88 (Reply 30):

Good grief what a lot of bbbbbfanbois getting in a huff. As one poster pointed out, both companies occasionally have a shot at the other. It's just the rough and tumble of business. Get over it. Have a chuckle and move on.

Indeed, that is how it is.

flood · Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:00 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
Trademark infringement (they used a 737Max nose) and slander, for starters.

What makes you think the 737MAX's nose is trademarked? It's not. Neither is the generic term "MAX", for that matter.

Not to mention... I have yet to see a 737 at PDX with such a long nose Wink

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 32):
Yes, they will.... if you use it for a "for profit" gain like what Airbus is doing.

Stroll over to Getty Images, where you're welcome to license thousands of 'generic' (ie stripped livery, etc) aircraft photos from both OEMs for commercial purposes.

I don't see the slander aspect either, to be honest.

[Edited 2012-11-27 13:04:20]

jetblueguy22 · Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:01 pm

I personally find the ad pretty funny. But for them to say the numbers are way off is silly. Neither aircraft have been put together, never mind flown. I understand they can get some good numbers off of computer models but when it takes flight is when they get the solid data. Even when the 787 went into service airlines were saying how performance was better than they expected. Not trying to say Boeing does have an 8% advantage, but when they enter service who knows, they could have a 10% advantage or Airbus will have a 10% advantage. We just don't know until the certifications are done and they are flying.
Blue

Kaiarahi · Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 5):
I hope Boeing sees this and files a lawsuit against Airbus for product defamation.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
slander

There's no such cause of action. Only persons can be defamed, not things. Slander is verbal defamation.

seabosdca · Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:09 pm

Good lord. Lawsuits? Those are expensive, you know. And there'd be no benefit.

Either Airbus is wrong and the MAX is competitive with the neo, in which case this ad won't matter because airlines will see that... or Airbus is right and the neo beats the MAX solidly, in which case this ad doesn't matter because airlines will reject the MAX based on the numbers, not this ad.

This is just some people at Airbus thumping their chests for Boeing's benefit. Honestly a waste of money, but whatever makes people feel good, I guess.

CM · Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:21 pm

Quoting hb88 (Reply 30):
er... really?

Really. You can't justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior.

Here's a great example of handling something properly, which I think you will agree with: When Airbus retired the A340 model, Boeing took a cheap shot at the airplane on Randy's blog. Airbus did not lower themselves by making an equally juvenile response. The comment made Boeing look small because it lacked class and was not gracious to a competitor which had been defeated. It was poor sportsmanship by Boeing, if you will. Now it's Airbus' turn to look silly for being juvenile, the question is how will Boeing respond, or will they?

Comparing this ad to the linked A350 video is truly apples and oranges, and here's why: The video was made by a couple of Boeing employees early in the 7E7 program. It was the unauthorized project of a small group of individuals and was made as a spoof video for entertainment inernal to an organization. Sadly it was leaked by some well meaning individual who wanted to share it with the world. 787 and BCA leadership learned of the video at the same time Airbus execs did, and both were furious. People who were directly involved in making the video were in quite a bit of hot water over it with Boeing leadership. In the case of the Airbus ad, it is the official public position of Airbus. Approved for release and sent out to the masses on Airbus' dime in the trade rags. Quite a different circumstance, IMHO.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 33):
Rubbish.

I guess it is all a matter of how you perceive professionalism and class, which I will admit is quite subjective.

glideslope · Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:23 pm

Wow, things are worse in Toulouse than I thought. All the EU bailouts must be forcing EADS to tighten the belt around Airbus? Maybe move some additional production to Germany from France?

Take the High Road Boeing.

And just who are these "less sophisticated customers" John? You're nothing but a glorified Car Salesman. You're banker is tightening the leash, and you're out of words, and Maintenance Packages.

ThomasCook · Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
That will be only of interest to charter operations like yourself.

Non-charter operators who want 10-abreast will be looking at the 777, 777X, 747 and A380.

That was quite an unfounded baseless response wasn't it? Configs remain to be seen...let's see what the likes of EI, EK and EY come up with.

[Edited 2012-11-27 14:03:25]

AirframeAS · Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:33 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 34):
What makes you think the 737MAX's nose is trademarked?

So, you're saying that Airbus, if they wanted to, could use the 737 nose on their future products?? Seriously??

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 36):
Slander is verbal defamation.

It can be written on paper as well. It does not have to be verbal.

Quoting glideslope (Reply 39):
Take the High Road Boeing.

I hope they will.... but if you read the article, they did respond to it by sending Airbus a letter....

redflyer · Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 3):
Shameless, unnecessary, and embarrassing - for Airbus. Aren't there some wing cracks to fix in Toulouse?

Ouch!

Quoting hb88 (Reply 30):
Good grief what a lot of bbbbbfanbois getting in a huff. As one poster pointed out, both companies occasionally have a shot at the other. It's just the rough and tumble of business. Get over it. Have a chuckle and move on.

I had a great laugh over it. The photo is absolutely priceless! I definitely give the edge to Airbus for creativity.

Unfortunately, I think this kind of advertising never works and only hurts the advertiser. Besides the possibility of making them look desperate, it has the effect of drawing attention to the competition. And in marketing, you never want to draw attention to the competition. Why? Because it will only make your prospective clients go back to the competition for confirmation/clarification of your claims, and in the process it will give the competition additional face-time with your prospective client. It will also give the competition an opportunity to refute the allegations, and now that the mud-fest has begun, provide the competition with an unfettered opportunity to bad-mouth you, only they will get to do it behind closed doors.

It's one thing to point out differences in products, but it's an entirely different ball game and a slippery slope to tread on to call your competitor a liar.

flood · Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:57 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 41):
So, you're saying that Airbus, if they wanted to, could use the 737 nose on their future products?? Seriously??

I never suggested anything of the like. I'm not sure how you managed to make the leap from a derivative image being used in advertising to the copying of a physical product.

BE77 · Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:58 pm

Speaking of lawsuits, doesn't Disney have a horse in this race here too? Did Airbus get permission to use an image very definitely associated with Disney??

(Just checked, and the story is from the 1800's so i imagine public domain, but i am still going to leave it in).

Stitch · Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:59 pm

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 40):
Configs remain to be seen...let's see what the likes of EI, EK and EY come up with.

EK have already stated they intend to fly the A350 at 9-abreast in Economy (the drop in seats between the 777-300ER and the A350-1000 has been a bit of a sore point with EK). I would expect EI and EY to follow EK's lead.

AirAsia X will fly the A350 in 10-abreast, but I believe they are the only carrier to date who has announced such plans.

AirframeAS · Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:01 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 43):
I'm not sure how you managed to make the leap from a derivative image being used in advertising to the copying of a physical product.

It never stopped China with their C919 or the ARJ21.....

Quoting flood (Reply 43):
I never suggested anything of the like.

You didn't have to.....

N766UA · Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:01 pm

I like how they say "both of which are 1960's designs." First off, yes they are, and they're doing a pretty awesome job of competing with your "newer" designs.

And, secondly, ALL airplanes are derivatives of early 1900's designs-- so what's their point?

faddypainter · Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting redflyer (Reply 42):
Unfortunately, I think this kind of advertising never works and only hurts the advertiser. Besides the possibility of making them look desperate, it has the effect of drawing attention to the competition. And in marketing, you never want to draw attention to the competition.

I think Ryanair and the Michael O'Leary brigade would have a thing or two to say about that. I'm sure you don't need me to provide examples.

tmoney · Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:05 pm

The article lost me when it said: "Chicago-based Boeing". Uh?!

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