Czech Airlines To Lease An A330

gr09 · Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:14 am

Czech Airlines decided to lease an A330 and start flights PRG-ICN in cooperation with Korean Air.

They are planning two flights per week. The rest of the week they will try to use the plane on some short haul destinations like Moscow and Yekaterinburg. Especially in Yekaterinburg I bet they don't see too many A330's.

Honestly I'm not sure what to think about the idea. As much as I like the fact OK will have a wide-body aircraft after retiring their A310 few years back, I'm not entirely convinced it is a financially wise step. Maybe an attempt to increase OK's price before selling it?

The press release: http://www.csa.cz/en/portal/quicklin...s_tz/news_tz_data/tz_041202012.htm

[Edited 2012-12-05 01:16:20]

debonair · Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:19 am

Quote:
Next June, a long-haul Airbus A330 hired on the basis of operative leasing will join the Czech Airlines fleet.

Any idea where this A330 is comeing from?!

gr09 · Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:23 am

Quoting debonair (Reply 1):
Any idea where this A330 is comeing from?!

The speculations are it will come from KE.

Carmelo · Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:38 am

I more logical thought that they bring it in for those Miami flights when I read the headline of this article.
When did Korean Air stop their flights to PRG?

gr09 · Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:40 am

Korean did not stop flights to Prague. These flights will be on top of the KE flights to make it 6x per week total.

bjorn14 · Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:00 am

Is this a 332 or 333?

JU068 · Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:16 am

I have a really bad feeling about this but I hope I am wrong. What market are they after? They are currently serving cities which have decent links to Korea, so it is not like they are entering an uncompetitive market.

JU068 · Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:02 pm

According to a Serbian aviation portal CSA will be increasing frequencies towards Warsaw, Berlin, Düsseldorf, Copenhagen, Milan and Stockholm.
They will be also re-instating Munich, Florence, Zurich and Nice.

Nice to see them expanding once again. I guess this is all part of their restructuring plan which was used to justify the state aid.

http://www.aviokarta.net/vesti/1555-...30-i-vraca-dugolinijski-saobracaj/

smbukas · Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:48 pm

Quoting JU068 (Reply 7):
Nice to see them expanding once again.

Still we cannot be sure that they are expanding overall. For example, ČSA is going to leave the Baltics and flights from PRG to VNO, RIX and TLL to be suspended.

It might be that they are going to reduce frequencies in some destinations as their press release says that overall they are going to reduce the fleet (at least phase out all B735) starting S13.

eire123 · Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:33 pm

Maybe they will run some weekly flights to JFK now that DL now have this as seasonal?

VCy · Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:38 pm

Quoting JU068 (Reply 7):
They will be also re-instating Munich, Florence, Zurich and Nice.

Would be nice to see them here at LCA again... Was shocked to see the route go because it was so popular.

MAH4546 · Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:13 pm

One A330? That costs a fortune.

Where exactly do they plan to expand with one A330? While they can fill a plane to New York, Miami or Colombo - all veyr popular with Czechs - not quite sure how there is money to be made.

Tupolev160 · Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:18 pm

Why they don't intend to use the plane to North America as well? They'll hardly break even by relying only on ICN and Eastern Europe. Nevertheless, it is impressive how well PRG is well connected with provincial Russian cities. Are those mainly touristic or business links?

gr09 · Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting eire123 (Reply 9):
Maybe they will run some weekly flights to JFK now that DL now have this as seasonal?

They mentioned in one interview that they would operate it only on routes where a strong codesharing agreements is in place. I assume they are negotiating with DL these days (hopefully). I see no sense in operating an A330 to Moscow except for the peak season.
Looks like with only 1 aircraft it would make most sense to operate it only destinations where a codeshare partner can help in case of AOG. So perhaps they will operate it between Prague, Seoul and New York. Still quite brave with one plane only.
Note that from my side it's a pure speculation, I have no connections to OK and I'm not from the airline business.

ushermittwoch · Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:15 pm

This sounds like a terrible idea.

LJ · Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting gr09 (Reply 4):
Korean did not stop flights to Prague. These flights will be on top of the KE flights to make it 6x per week total.

Seems that the success of PRG-ICN somwhat correlates success of KIA/Hyundai in the European car market...

Quoting JU068 (Reply 6):
I have a really bad feeling about this but I hope I am wrong. What market are they after?

KIA / Hyundai corporate traffic (and KE which doesn't have the capacity to fufill this)????

BTW will this be a KE/OK codeshare?

HB-IWC · Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:59 am

Looking at the proposed schedule for this A333, this venture has written failure all over it:

SAT OK190 PRG ICN 1255 0540+1
SUN OK191 ICN PRG 1245 1650
SUN OK190 PRG ICN 1830 1115+1
TUE OK191 ICN PRG 1245 1650

The aircraft is tied up on 2 PRG rotations between Saturday and Tuesday, with a 25 hour gap on the ground in ICN. That leaves Wednesday to Friday for other ventures, but no serious longhaul operation can be maintained on just 3 consecutive days per week.

If the airline felt that PRG ICN could do with extra capacity, why not ask KE to add capacity to its 4 weekly operation into PRG? For sure since the A333 seems to be sourced from KE anyway.

krisyyz · Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:57 am

Quoting gr09 (Reply 13):
Looks like with only 1 aircraft it would make most sense to operate it only destinations where a codeshare partner can help in case of AOG. So perhaps they will operate it between Prague, Seoul and New York. Still quite brave with one plane only.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 11):
One A330? That costs a fortune.

Operating just 1 long-haul aircraft doesn't sound like a good idea. What happens if it goes tech?

Will this be a wet or a dry lease?

One of the many reasons MA stopped their long-haul flights was their small fleet of 2 to 3 767s. The former-CEO of MA stated that they would need at least 5 long-haul planes to make their operations economical and feasible.

KrisYYZ

delimit · Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:00 am

There's a news story going around that KE and QR are interested in taking a stake in CSA. The lease of a 330 could be related.

LJ · Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:17 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 16):
If the airline felt that PRG ICN could do with extra capacity, why not ask KE to add capacity to its 4 weekly operation into PRG?

Traffic rights perhaps? If the bilateral doesn't allow KE to operate additional flights than it's possible this was the only solution to increase flights until the bilateral is amended. I doubt Skyteam wanted to loose pax to other airlines.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 16):
For sure since the A333 seems to be sourced from KE anyway.

In which case it probably can do one or more rotations for KE with KE crew when in ICN. It all depends on what kind of lease this will be.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 16):
That leaves Wednesday to Friday for other ventures, but no serious longhaul operation can be maintained on just 3 consecutive days per week.

Which OK doesn't intend to do. I reckon there is an urgency to increase PRG-ICN and this was the only option for KE/OK as it's far from ideal.

thus

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 16):
Looking at the proposed schedule for this A333, this venture has written failure all over it:

It's impossible to assess whether this will be a failure as we don't know the logic behind this new service. There must be a benefit for OK, KE and/or Skyteam to operate this schedule as OK was not supposed to fly long haul anymore. Why suddenly fly PRG-ICN? We don't know (unfortunately). However, i do believe that somebody has thought through this as nobody has an interest in OK losing more money than they already do (and the current management has proved to be taken serious cost cutting measures if routes do not perform).

flyguy89 · Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:20 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 11):
One A330? That costs a fortune.

Depends on what type of lease it is and how it's structured. I agree this is definitely strange, but who knows, maybe they got a sweet deal on a wet lease?

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 16):
Looking at the proposed schedule for this A333, this venture has written failure all over it:

The scheduling does not look promising. I don't think it would be an altogether bad move if they had some holiday package division and would be able to send the a/c on rotations to MIA or NYC (all heavily traveled holiday destinations as mah pointed out), but it doesn't appear they will be doing that.

JU068 · Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:41 am

Quoting smbukas (Reply 8):
Still we cannot be sure that they are expanding overall. For example, ČSA is going to leave the Baltics and flights from PRG to VNO, RIX and TLL to be suspended.

Yes but the Baltic states are relatively small and well covered by airBaltic, Ryanair and Wizz Air. I wonder if there was really a market left for OK.

Quoting VCy (Reply 10):
Would be nice to see them here at LCA again... Was shocked to see the route go because it was so popular.

I think they were preoccupied with connecting passengers that they forgot all about the O&D.

Quoting LJ (Reply 15):
KIA / Hyundai corporate traffic (and KE which doesn't have the capacity to fufill this)????

Yes but I doubt corporate traffic will be thrilled to use CSA's weekend flights. The only logical flight could be the one on Tuesday. I guess we will have to wait and see what happens.

I am really sceptical about their decision to use the A330 on European flights. Cyprus Airways which operated the same bird on its Larnaca-London route, needed a loadfactor of about 85% to break-even. I fear that unless they find a more suitable intercontinental route they should forget about Europe.

eta unknown · Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:53 am

I'm sure there's more to this story. I'm guessing the PRG-ICN flights are CSA in name only to get around the bilateral. I wouldn't be surprised if the A330 and crew were all from KE and OK will be paid a royalty for using their traffic rights.

alespesl · Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:24 am

Quoting smbukas (Reply 8):
Still we cannot be sure that they are expanding overall. For example, ČSA is going to leave the Baltics and flights from PRG to VNO, RIX and TLL to be suspended.

It might be that they are going to reduce frequencies in some destinations as their press release says that overall they are going to reduce the fleet (at least phase out all B735) starting S13.

As per their release the flight to the Baltics will be operated by Air Baltic for them. Form Jan 2013, BT is starting to fly to PRG and will route the flights to TLL and VNO via RIX.

AirAfreak · Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:29 pm

Does anyone know how the KE flights between Incheon and Prague are doing concerning yields/loads? Perhaps there is good reason to launch this rotation via CSA!

CPHFF · Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting VCy (Reply 10):
Would be nice to see them here at LCA again... Was shocked to see the route go because it was so popular.

Was it really polular? I flew it twice (May and September 2010) and the flight was only half full. A 02.55am departure time is also tough.......

ushermittwoch · Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting CPHFF (Reply 25):
Was it really polular? I flew it twice (May and September 2010) and the flight was only half full. A 02.55am departure time is also tough.......

LH has a 3:25 departure to FRA, LOT leaves at a similar time to WAW. There are a bunch of pretty unconvenient flight times from LCA to central Europe.

JU068 · Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting CPHFF (Reply 25):
Was it really polular? I flew it twice (May and September 2010) and the flight was only half full. A 02.55am departure time is also tough.......

There are a lot of Cypriot students in Prague and generally Prague is very popular in Cyprus. CSA also offered good deals via Prague to other cities in Europe. I guess their cost-structure did not permit them to keep these flights.

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 26):
LH has a 3:25 departure to FRA, LOT leaves at a similar time to WAW. There are a bunch of pretty unconvenient flight times from LCA to central Europe.

Malev used to depart at 04:20 and some years ago Tarom used to depart at 05:20.

babybus · Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting CPHFF (Reply 25):
Was it really polular?

Cyprus seems to follow the Arabic nations tradition of middle of the night arrivals and departures. Maybe it's to do with the heat in summer or maybe a preference of the locals. I'm sure a 2.30am departure from LHR or any euro city would not be popular at all.

I'm amazed that ICN would work as a route and somewhere in north America wouldn't work. I can't imagine the reasons for Czechs flying to Korea or Koreans needing to fly to Prague.

JU068 · Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 28):
Cyprus seems to follow the Arabic nations tradition of middle of the night arrivals and departures. Maybe it's to do with the heat in summer or maybe a preference of the locals. I'm sure a 2.30am departure from LHR or any euro city would not be popular at all.

It has to do with the fact that these flights can leave in the evening and come back early in the morning, just before the first wave of departures. Though this is perfect for their scheduling department it is a horrible experience for the passengers.

ushermittwoch · Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting JU068 (Reply 29):
It has to do with the fact that these flights can leave in the evening and come back early in the morning, just before the first wave of departures. Though this is perfect for their scheduling department it is a horrible experience for the passengers.

In the case of LH one could see it as the perfect strategy to skim off Transatlantic travellers from Cyprus, since they are able to catch basically any TATL connection ex FRA without too much hassle. OTOH, they don't fly the route daily. Unlike OS who actually have two daily flights.

FI642 · Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:02 pm

Quoting JU068 (Reply 6):

I have a really bad feeling about this but I hope I am wrong. What market are they after? They are currently serving cities which have decent links to Korea, so it is not like they are entering an uncompetitive market.

MIA would be so much more productive.

zruda · Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting FI642 (Reply 31):

Exactly my thoughts. Florida is really popular among Czech people, lots of PRG traffic both on direct US flights and on SkyTeam flights via AMS/CDG are to Florida airports. I don't understand why though, but I've always been considered a weirdo

LJ · Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 28):
I'm amazed that ICN would work as a route and somewhere in north America wouldn't work. I can't imagine the reasons for Czechs flying to Korea or Koreans needing to fly to Prague.

KIA Motors and Samsung have a plants in Slovakia and Koreans provide a large part of Slovakia's foreign direct investment. Moreover, Korea isn't small in the Czech republic as well (around 10th).

Quoting FI642 (Reply 31):
MIA would be so much more productive.

I reckon anyone will prefer a KE A330 above the 737 idea by Travel Service, however who needs the F and J class seats on such flights?

Quoting JU068 (Reply 21):

Yes but I doubt corporate traffic will be thrilled to use CSA's weekend flights. The only logical flight could be the one on Tuesday. I guess we will have to wait and see what happens.

Have you seen the overall schedule between ICN and PRG? Almost daily ex ICN (no flight on Thursday) but twice on Saturday.

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 24):
Does anyone know how the KE flights between Incheon and Prague are doing concerning yields/loads? Perhaps there is good reason to launch this rotation via CSA!

The fact that KE sends the 772 instead of the 333 or 332 seems to indicate that the route isn't doing badly load and yield wise (you don't send an aircraft with premium product to a destination which does badly).

hoons90 · Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 am

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 24):
Does anyone know how the KE flights between Incheon and Prague are doing concerning yields/loads? Perhaps there is good reason to launch this rotation via CSA!

KE has been operating flights to PRG continuously since May 15th, 2004 and even sends 77Ws and 744s there in the Summer. PRG is the only KE European destination other than LHR, CDG, FRA and SVO that gets more than a 3x weekly service. MAD, AMS, VIE, ZRH, MXP, FCO, LED and IST are all 3x weekly.

MAH4546 · Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:28 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 33):
however who needs the F and J class seats on such flights?

Korean's A333s are very light on the premium capacity. Less than 30 premium seats. That's probably fine. Not sure where CSA provides the best connections, but Russia-Florida is actually a good premium market.

JU068 · Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:58 am

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 30):
In the case of LH one could see it as the perfect strategy to skim off Transatlantic travellers from Cyprus, since they are able to catch basically any TATL connection ex FRA without too much hassle. OTOH, they don't fly the route daily. Unlike OS who actually have two daily flights.

Lufthansa used to operated daily A300-600 flights into Larnaca in addition to a few weekly flights during the night. Now they have only a few flights, one during day time (I believe on Fridays) and the rest during the night. I think the decision to leave this market to Austrian Airlines was a wise decision since they have a much higher O&D demand as they serve both Vienna and Bratislava (there are between 7,000 and 10,000 Slovaks in Cyprus).

Quoting FI642 (Reply 31):
MIA would be so much more productive.

Especially if they can secure a deal with a travel agent to fill their seats.

Quoting LJ (Reply 33):
Have you seen the overall schedule between ICN and PRG? Almost daily ex ICN (no flight on Thursday) but twice on Saturday.

Yes, I am aware of that but the question is if the premium product offered by CSA will be as good as that offered by Korean. Like I said earlier, we will have to wait and see what happens in the end. I hope that this route will be profitable because they will not be allowed to receive a new cash injection by the government.

airbazar · Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:29 pm

This makes me believe that this is really just KE adding more frequencies and just slapping the "operated by Czech Airlines" label on it to get around bilateral restrictions. It's the only thing that makes sense.

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