USAirways CLT-GRU Start Date .

etops1 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:42 am

May 5 ,2013 per Inflight weekly . Inflight publication .Its already in the system for booking . Flt 802 CLT-GRU / 803 GRU-CLT . 767-200.

[Edited 2012-12-07 23:48:08]

B757capt · Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:07 am

Shows a 0430am arrival in GRU ouch!

wn676 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:14 am

Wow, a daylight return is a little surprising. Departs GRU at 0825 and arrives in CLT at 1725. Guess they didn't want to delay the start any longer by continuing to negotiate for better slot times.

SCL767 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:14 am

Quoting etops1 (Thread starter):
May 5 ,2013 per Inflight weekly . Inflight publication .Its already in the system for booking . Flt 802 CLT-GRU / 803 GRU-CLT . 767-200.

Indeed! Welcome to the GRU hub! It will be interesting to see if US seeks to code-share with TAM on both the CLT-GIG and CLT-GRU routes in the near term; even though TAM's departure from the Star Alliance is imminent!

US802 CLT 17:50 GRU 04:30+1 B762 Daily
US803 GRU 08:25 CLT 17:25 B762 Daily

LAXdude1023 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:23 am

With a daylight return? They aren't going to attract any high yielding traffic with that schedule.

flyguy89 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:23 am

Quoting wn676 (Reply 2):
Wow, a daylight return is a little surprising.

It is indeed. Seeing as the vast majority of premium travelers on the route prefer late night returns out of Brazil, does anyone think US will take a hit on yields with these flight times?

XFSUgimpLB41X · Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:25 am

Sooo.... since when do any airlines not do all nighters both ways on South America flights? I've always heard (and the schedules appear to prove it) that it's not near enough business without being an all nighter?

SCL767 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:29 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4):
With a daylight return? They aren't going to attract any high yielding traffic with that schedule.

TAM operates one daily GRU-MIA B77W flight with a daylight schedule. TAM operates one daily GRU-JFK flight with a daylight schedule. But I guess that they don't capture any high yielding pax, right? BTW, AA currently operates one daily B772 daylight flight on the GRU-MIA sector; as well as one daily B772 daylight flight on the GRU-JFK sector.

[Edited 2012-12-08 00:55:10]

wn676 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:56 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 3):
US802 CLT 17:50 GRU 04:30 1 B762 Daily
US803 GRU 08:25 CLT 17:25 B762 Daily

I wonder if they still have two A330s penciled in for this route once they're delivered. Even though you couldn't use the same aircraft with this schedule, I believe this can account for only one frame if it's worked right with other turns.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4):
With a daylight return? They aren't going to attract any high yielding traffic with that schedule.

Apart from not operating the flight at all, I think this was their only choice since Infraero had made it pretty clear that no other slot times would be made available.

C010T3 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:59 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 6):
Sooo.... since when do any airlines not do all nighters both ways on South America flights? I've always heard (and the schedules appear to prove it) that it's not near enough business without being an all nighter?

US Airways wasn't granted a parking position at GRU, nor evening slots for that to happen.

wn676 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:17 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 7):
TAM operates one daily GRU-MIA B77W flight with a daylight schedule. TAM operates one daily GRU-JFK flight with a daylight schedule. But I guess that they don't capture any high yielding pax, right? BTW, AA currently operates one daily B772 daylight flight on the GRU-MIA sector; as well as one daily B772 daylight flight on the GRU-JFK sector.

Remember that we're talking about CLT here, not MIA or JFK. For a route that is already going to depend almost entirely on connecting traffic, throwing a daylight flight into the mix that is generally not preferred by those who pay a premium for those flights is certainly not going to help yields.

LAXdude1023 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:40 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 7):

Apples and oranges my friend.

You're comparing a 300 plus passenger a day market (MIA-GRU) with a 8 passenger a day market CLT-GRU).

MIA can support a daylight and make it work, I doubt CLT will be able to. The good news is if AA and US merge, they will probably be able to shift it to red eyes both ways thus attracting the higher yielding clients. In that scenario I would expect CLT-GIG to be toast.

southwest737500 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:53 pm

From what I'm hearing is this route will get the A332 once they get the new deliveries

southwest737500 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:56 pm

You guys underestimate CLT to much. I remember when people said GIG would fail. The loads are 87% last time I checked

LAXdude1023 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 13):
You guys underestimate CLT to much. I remember when people said GIG would fail. The loads are 87% last time I checked

It doesnt even have much to do with CLT. Those times are awful. DL couldnt make ATL-GRU work with a daylight flight, US isnt going to be able to do it well either. They may keep it, but they will no doubt try for better times. CLT-GRU would be fine if the times were right, they arent.

As for CLT-GIG, the times are decent so Im not surprised that route does fine with US as is. That said, I think CLT-GIG is toast if US and AA merge. US/AA could probably make CLT-GRU work with better times and it could remain.

Cubsrule · Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14):
US/AA could probably make CLT-GRU work with better times and it could remain.

I'm not a fan of the merger in general, but I think given AA's strong brand in Brasil and the strength of the CLT hub, CLT-GRU would work much better for a merged entity than for US alone. AA does a good job taking care of the MIA locals in MIA, and CLT is a much better place to connect for just about everyone else.

2travel2know2 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:27 pm

Don't know what'd be worse, an early daylight return GRU-CLT (CLT which isn't MIA or NYC to at least have a decent demand for that kind of schedule, regardless of CLT's hub potential) or flying red-eyes both ways but to VCP instead of GRU.
Could a tag-on to VCP from CLT-GIG have worked too?

AF086 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:02 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 16):
Could a tag-on to VCP from CLT-GIG have worked too?

Why would you do that? It would increase the costs of the flight for a marginal LF increase (it is around 85% as it is).

What US could consider as far as GIG is concerned is keeping the 332 year round. the market responded well to the change from the 762.

USAirALB · Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:38 pm

Man, those times are terrible. I willing to bet that US is willing to let the route lose a little money at first just to try and get established in the GRU market. Based on these times, and how bad they are, US must have really wanted to get into GRU badly. Hopefully they will be awarded better times.

C010T3 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 18):
Man, those times are terrible. I willing to bet that US is willing to let the route lose a little money at first just to try and get established in the GRU market. Based on these times, and how bad they are, US must have really wanted to get into GRU badly. Hopefully they will be awarded better times.

US finally accepted the fact that they would not get better slots if they didn't start the flights and kept rejecting what was available.

B757capt · Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:56 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 19):

Can someone explain how the slot process is awarded at GRU? Is this as simple as Brazil trying to screw a USA carrier or more that don't understand?

varigb707 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting b757capt (Reply 1):

Quoting b757capt (Reply 1):

Shows a 0430am arrival in GRU ouch!

OUCH, indeed... Assuming passengers will clear customs/imigration within an hour, by the time they all hit the roads it'll be morning rush hour in Sao Paulo...

AAIL86 · Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 3):
Indeed! Welcome to the GRU hub! It will be interesting to see if US seeks to code-share with TAM on both the CLT-GIG and CLT-GRU routes in the near term; even though TAM's departure from the Star Alliance is imminent!

US Airways' departure from Star Alliance is imminent as well, at least if their CEO has his way!

C010T3 · Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:04 am

Quoting b757capt (Reply 20):
Can someone explain how the slot process is awarded at GRU? Is this as simple as Brazil trying to screw a USA carrier or more that don't understand?

Not all! The process is quite transparent.

Here is the link for all the proceedings:
http://www2.anac.gov.br/ComitedeFacilitacao/

IIRC, the last airline to receive authorization for long-term parking at GRU was Continental when IAH-GIG was launched and the GRU-GIG tag on the IAH-GRU flight was axed. GRU is really out of space and there are no evening slots left. AFAIK, if United wanted to cancel the GRU-GIG tag on its IAD-GRU service, it may not be able to do so, since there would be no available long-term parking position at GRU. Every new flight at GRU must be immediate turn-around. That will be the situation until T3 is built.

VC10er · Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:47 am

What is US Aiways business class like on their 767? Often a daylight flight for someone traveling on business is a day killer, sometimes it's good to kill a day if the ride is comfortable. I've haven't flown US internationally in over 10 years. I found their old recliner far, far better than the CO recliner. But I was on an A330 not a 767. Is their new lie-flat fitted to the 767?

USAirALB · Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:20 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 23):
That will be the situation until T3 is built.

And when will that be?

Quoting VC10er (Reply 24):
What is US Aiways business class like on their 767? Often a daylight flight for someone traveling on business is a day killer, sometimes it's good to kill a day if the ride is comfortable. I've haven't flown US internationally in over 10 years. I found their old recliner far, far better than the CO recliner. But I was on an A330 not a 767. Is their new lie-flat fitted to the 767?

They currently have angled lie flat shell seats, equipped with a portable PTV. Basically the same type of seat design and IFE as the AA 763. While I haven't sat in these seats, I have heard that the width is kind of poor for J class.
http://www.usairways.com/en-US/trave...ntheair/envoyfirst/envoyclass.html

RodRB · Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:46 am

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 25):
And when will that be?

Will be ready for the World Cup. GRU is now a private airport and things will work out.

MAH4546 · Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:18 am

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 25):
They currently have angled lie flat shell seats, equipped with a portable PTV. Basically the same type of seat design and IFE as the AA 763. While I haven't sat in these seats, I have heard that the width is kind of poor for J class.

Absolutely not. The seats have nothing in common. Both are subpar products, but AA is lie flat 180 degrees and US' seats do not lie flat at all. The seat is comparable to what AA uses on domestic 762s.

GRU-U.S. has grown so ridiculously much in the past four years relative to new capacity that it might work. But, like with GIG, US is going to carry trash yields. It has the cost structure - cheap labor and lack of investment on product - to do so.

[Edited 2012-12-09 03:22:52]

Rafabozzolla · Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:49 am

Quoting b757capt (Reply 1):
Shows a 0430am arrival in GRU ouch!

Interesting that they were given such slots. In the Northern Summer this is just brushing into the morning rush from European arrivals.

I'm flying MIA-GRU on the daylight 2433 in late January. It's an award J class ticket. It was the only return from Miami I could find back in October on all destinations in Brazil that suited me (BSB, CNF, GIG and GRU), I guess this tells something about yields...

B757capt · Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting RodRB (Reply 26):

So what your saying is the government will then allow the slots for the airlines to retime their schedule?

C010T3 · Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:15 am

Quoting b757capt (Reply 29):
So what your saying is the government will then allow the slots for the airlines to retime their schedule?

Yes, that's about right.

LipeGIG · Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:01 am

Horrible schedulle of course, as expected.

US in my view managed to build up a loyal group of customers, and many that flew recently with the A332 product feel like it is among the best US-Brazil nowadays. I would not rule them out ! CLT is easy and far from being crowded in the morning (GIG is the first arrival) allowing quick connections.

Even with so called "trash" yields, the lowest fares available nowadays to GIG are around USD 1,100 R/T, not bad at all !

USAirALB · Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:23 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 31):
Horrible schedulle of course, as expected.

US in my view managed to build up a loyal group of customers, and many that flew recently with the A332 product feel like it is among the best US-Brazil nowadays. I would not rule them out ! CLT is easy and far from being crowded in the morning (GIG is the first arrival) allowing quick connections.

Even with so called "trash" yields, the lowest fares available nowadays to GIG are around USD 1,100 R/T, not bad at all !

Nice to hear, especially since many have predicted CLT-GIG not even to last a year!

HALFA · Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:50 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 27):
The seats have nothing in common. Both are subpar products, but AA is lie flat 180 degrees and US' seats do not lie flat at all.

I am Aadvantage Platinum and fly J Class to GIG with AA 4 times per year. AA's J Class seats are not 180 degree lie flat. While they are somewhat comfortable, they are NOT lie flat. Flat is flat. AA's seats are not lie flat in J, they are angled. A few years ago when AA had their GIG-GRU tag on to DFW with the 777, I used miles and upgraded to F Class. The F Class seats on the 777 did lie flat, and were very comfortable. You seem to be quite knowledgeable regarding AA's operation and I don't understand why you would say such a thing. It's not true.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 31):
Even with so called "trash" yields, the lowest fares available nowadays to GIG are around USD 1,100 R/T, not bad at all !

Hi Lipe, I totally agree! Fares to GIG are quite high again. I've been watching for fare sales and I haven't found any lately.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 7):
TAM operates one daily GRU-MIA B77W flight with a daylight schedule. TAM operates one daily GRU-JFK flight with a daylight schedule.

For the record, Korean Air still operates a 3 times weekly daylight GRU-LAX service that seems to do well or I would think they would have given this route up by now.

Aloha,
HALFA

Jamake1 · Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:52 pm

Here is the official press release from US indicating a 05 May, 2013 start date.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-air...ternational-network-130000949.html

LipeGIG · Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:01 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 32):
Nice to hear, especially since many have predicted CLT-GIG not even to last a year!

And they are getting 87% load factor, higher fares, and nice yields. Business tickets are getting expensive also.

Quoting HALFA (Reply 33):
Hi Lipe, I totally agree! Fares to GIG are quite high again. I've been watching for fare sales and I haven't found any lately.

I believe they really got a loyal number of customers, and now with the A332, both economy and premium experiences sounds very good. I plan to fly with them next week, will talk about !

Quoting HALFA (Reply 33):
I am Aadvantage Platinum and fly J Class to GIG with AA 4 times per year. AA's J Class seats are not 180 degree lie flat. While they are somewhat comfortable, they are NOT lie flat. Flat is flat. AA's seats are not lie flat in J, they are angled. A few years ago when AA had their GIG-GRU tag on to DFW with the 777, I used miles and upgraded to F Class. The F Class seats on the 777 did lie flat, and were very comfortable. You seem to be quite knowledgeable regarding AA's operation and I don't understand why you would say such a thing. It's not true

I'm explat flying 10-15 times a year US-Brazil and second your view. US A332 is more comfortable than AA 763 or 772 on business class.

Quoting HALFA (Reply 33):

For the record, Korean Air still operates a 3 times weekly daylight GRU-LAX service that seems to do well or I would think they would have given this route up by now.

As well as TAM operates both GRU-MCO and GIG-MCO daylight.
I don't see a big problem with daylights. Flew once the new AA GRU-JFK daylight and was around 60%

RyanairGuru · Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:48 pm

Just to clarify about US J on the 767 fleet (and to let you form your own opinion), here is a current (Nov 2012) trip report on US 762 J. It had 170 degree decline, per US.

Thanksgiving Travels: SJU-CLT-DCA F/Y --lots Pics (by plateman Nov 27 2012 in Trip Reports)

Unfortunately I couldn't find a TR on the A330 J, but this has some pictures: http://www.usairways.com/en-US/trave...ntheair/envoyfirst/envoyclass.html

Oak522 · Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:04 pm

Random thought: Why don't they just tag to EZE and park there for the day? Is the departure slot only for AM departure? They could add another destination and get rid of the crappy daytime departure.

C010T3 · Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:37 pm

Quoting Oak522 (Reply 37):
Is the departure slot only for AM departure?

Yes! US would not be able to get a departure slot between 5PM and 2AM.

MaverickM11 · Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 35):

Quoting HALFA (Reply 33):

For the record, Korean Air still operates a 3 times weekly daylight GRU-LAX service that seems to do well or I would think they would have given this route up by now.

As well as TAM operates both GRU-MCO and GIG-MCO daylight.
I don't see a big problem with daylights. Flew once the new AA GRU-JFK daylight and was around 60%

The LAXGRU trip has a fairly light LF, and is obviously there for onward traffic to ICN and Asia; it would not last on its own. The GRU/GIGMCO trips are leisure, with high load factors and make great use of aircraft that would otherwise sit in GRU/GIG, particularly since leisure traffic doesn't much care what time it goes to MCO. Same goes for MIA/NYCGRU daylight flights--they are just using aircraft time that would otherwise sit in NYC/MIA/GRU, in markets that are large enough that some of the spill traffic covers the operating costs of the flight. Daylight flying is by far an inferior schedule to deep South America, in much the same way that daylight eastbound flying is by far the least preferred way to get to Europe, and only works in very few markets.

LAXdude1023 · Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:06 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 35):

Daylight flights to Deep South America on only successful from markets with huge volume (the only three being MIA, MCO, and NYC) or if the flight is continuing to another destination (LAX). CLT isn't any of that. Mega hubs like ATL couldn't even make a daylight GRU flight work. I have no doubt US will stick it out, but they won't get much revenue on the daylight return relative to other carriers.

MAH4546 · Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 35):
And they are getting 87% load factor, higher fares, and nice yields. Business tickets are getting expensive also.

US' average fares to GIG suck. They are the worst of all the carriers; the flight continues to mainly be leisure to Orlando, and TAM is spilling so much more capacity to Florida this southern summer, US' GIG flight will just continue to hurt.

incitatus · Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 13):
You guys underestimate CLT to much. I remember when people said GIG would fail. The loads are 87% last time I checked

One has got to wonder how much of that traffic just lands in CLT to make a U-turn and head to Florida. US flies Brazilian tourists to Orlando and Miami with a +800-mile detour. Financially it cannot look good.

C010T3 · Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:48 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 42):
One has got to wonder how much of that traffic just lands in CLT to make a U-turn and head to Florida. US flies Brazilian tourists to Orlando and Miami with a +800-mile detour. Financially it cannot look good.

Considering that you can easily find fares to BOS on the same level of those to Florida, that logic is flawed. The detour is not the problem. Let's not forget that Delta also offers those same connections to Florida. Let's not even start discussing connections at LIM, BOG and PTY.

etops1 · Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 42):

The A330 that US flies between GIG-CLT goes on to MCO and guess what ? It's full of Brazilians going to MCO to go shop at the outlets . I don't think they care that they have to fly up to CLT and then down to MCO .

LAXdude1023 · Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting etops1 (Reply 44):

That formula isn't conducive for a profitable flight.

brandonfsu05 · Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 45):
That formula isn't conducive for a profitable flight.

Again, you're analyzing the issue as if US were AA, UA, DL. US has limited options right now. They are in the better position to compete for less substantial revenue. DL/UA/AA have much more options. Why run a daylight flight when you can run an extra Africa flight etc. US is much more narrowed. Would US love to have more of a premium? I'm sure. But, that simply isn't possible. Where else should US send the plane? I mean, are you saying that US would make more money running 2 A332s to Europe in the winter than sending it to GIG? You're comparing revenue intake with US to other companies with different products, loyalties and hubs. They are trying their best to break into new markets and go after higher revenues.

In terms of GRU, US is just going to bite the bullet in the hopes of securing better slots. Could they send the planes to Europe during high season and make more money? In this case, sure. But, where would that leave them a year from now if the merger doesn't happen? Still out of GRU, no market share and probably still no possibility of securing more competitive slots.

[Edited 2012-12-12 11:23:39]

[Edited 2012-12-12 11:24:09]

Cubsrule · Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:32 pm

Quoting brandonfsu05 (Reply 46):
Still out of GRU, no market share and probably still no possibility of securing more competitive slots.

Why does US need to be in Brasil? It's not like they are a global carrier.

LAXdude1023 · Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting brandonfsu05 (Reply 46):

You are reading way too much into it. I'm making two points:

1) Daylight flights to deep South America are typically very low yielding and the only markets that can make money on them are super high volume markets. Again, that's limited to MIA, MCO, and NYC. The on other exception is KE's flight to LAX because it continues to an Asian city.

2) CLT doesn't have the dynamics to make a daylight flight to deep South America go gangbusters. That isn't a stab at US or even CLT, ATL can't even make a daylight GRU flight work.

That said, Im sure US will stick it out.

LipeGIG · Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting etops1 (Reply 44):
The A330 that US flies between GIG-CLT goes on to MCO and guess what ? It's full of Brazilians going to MCO to go shop at the outlets . I don't think they care that they have to fly up to CLT and then down to MCO .

Not only MCO, they got people going and from all around the USA. Their product is surprising a lot of people in Rio area and they begin to have those customers flying the route 6-12 times a year.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 45):
That formula isn't conducive for a profitable flight.

But US runs profits every quarter using that formula, they probably know what they are doing and if they are upgrading equipment, it is clear they are not making a loss (and will be hard to make a loss with USD 1,400 restricted Y fares ).
. Other airline with massive hubs like MIA, in which many says is a money maker, are not running profits.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net