DL Acquiring 49% In VS

mindscape · Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:21 pm

Delta Air Lines is going to invest $360M in acquiring 49% stakes in Virgin Atlantic from Singapore Airlines.
Press conference in preparation ! The aim is to obtain more access into LHR, and the brand VIRGIN ATLANTIC is to remain !

gdg9 · Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:26 pm

Wow, thought the purchase price would be higher!

http://bit.ly/URCl2O

stlgph · Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:26 pm

Presser is this morning at New York Palace Hotel. It'll probably be available to listen in by phone or online ... I'll probably be there, but maybe I can pass along listen and log in information if anyone is interested before I head over.

Agreement will result in 31 peak flights a day between UK and North America.

Delta will get 3 seats on the Virgin board.

VCy · Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:30 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 2):
Agreement will result in 31 peak flights a day between UK and North America.

How many were there before?

commavia · Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:40 pm

Well now it's official. I still struggle to see how this is worth $360M to Delta - but Delta's management seems to think they know what they're doing!

I don't expect regulatory approval to be too much of a struggle.

Regarding implementation, I think we can expect the two carriers to rapidly move to improve the joint JFK-LHR schedule where the two do currently overlap pretty closely. I also wonder what this will do for BOS-LHR, which is a market I don't think Delta has done all that great in but which Virgin has been serving for years and years. Beyond those two direct overlap routes, for sure this will also help Delta with both U.K. and U.S. POS, and it should definitely help with corporate accounts in certain key U.S. cities (SFO, IAD, MIA) that will now have a "Delta option" to LHR - although I doubt it will have too dramatic an impact in those cities, either, where other carriers (AA, BA, UA, etc.) are far larger and more entrenched.

Should be interesting to watch ...

EricR · Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:41 pm

DL did get an amazing price for the 49% stake. Hypothetically speaking, If DL were to sell all the LHR slots based on historical prices, the value would be more than $360 million. All the value appears to be in the slots. This doesn't speak well for Virgin itself.

stlgph · Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:41 pm

Quoting VCy (Reply 3):

still chasing down exact numbers right now.

SYDSpotter · Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
Well now it's official. I still struggle to see how this is worth $360M to Delta - but Delta's management seems to think they know what they're doing!

Well SQ bought the original 49% stake for £600m (~$900m) back in the day, so they've taken a hefty hit !!
I guess for SQ it at least frees up some cash.

docpepz · Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:44 pm

SQ paid GBP600 mil in 1999 - at GBP SGD exchange rates then it cost SGD1.8 bil (Today it would be SGD1.2 bil)
Today they sold it at GBP360 mil - at current USD SGD exchange rates it is SGD432 mil or just 24% of what they paid for it.

And if you factor the time value of money......

shilenb · Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:49 pm

Does this mean that VS will now join Skyteam?

kl911 · Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:51 pm

Great news! Can we expect VS codeshare on KLM AMS-MAN and LHR, and AF CDG-MAN and LHR? Will VS become Flying Blue partner? I really really hope so.

Alsatian · Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:52 pm

So something that the MEB3 won't get. Huge reorganisation for LHR terminals to come !

aircanadaa330 · Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:55 pm

Quoting shilenb (Reply 9):
Does this mean that VS will now join Skyteam?

Yeah I am wondering the same thing. Wasnt there a post a few months ago stating that Star wanted VS?

Delta sure got a good deal.

kl911 · Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:57 pm

Quoting AirCanadaA330 (Reply 12):
Delta sure got a good deal.

Just a shame its not allowed to have 51%. If AF-KL get 2%, does that count for ownership as 51% together?

acelanzarote · Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:59 pm

Wonder if any changes at MAN or GLA, would be nice to see more flights from these in time.
What about LGW, wonder what if anything might change there...

Unlike SQ who didn´t really take much interest in VS? I think Delta will be very hands
on. Long term I wonder if Virgin will get bought out completely...?

rj777 · Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:08 pm

So now will they be adding the VS logo to all those DL/AF/KL signs at the airport gates?

commavia · Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:12 pm

Quoting rj777 (Reply 15):
So now will they be adding the VS logo to all those DL/AF/KL signs at the airport gates?

I'm not clear on whether Virgin will actually be joining the existing Delta-Air France-KLM JV, let alone SkyTeam, or just a separate JV with just Delta. I would think they would be included in the existing JV, but it doesn't seem clear from the press release.

gilesdavies · Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:15 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 13):
If AF-KL get 2%, does that count for ownership as 51% together?

The other 51% is held by Virgin Group, which is not on the stock markets so they would need to manage to get Richard Branson to free that up, which I doubt he will allow...

I wonder how Air France and KLM feel, as it potentially means this new tie up will take traffic away from their AMS and CDG hubs on routes to America. Especially now Virgin are going into the domestic market, they could attract customers from EDI, ABD and MAN to fly through LHR and on to a Delta flight.

Also I wonder if this will mean VS becoming a member of SkyTeam, or just a DL Partner?

As I imagine SkyTeam members in Europe will not be too keen in competing with another member of the group to destinations in Asia and Africa, they already fly... Also VS will not bring a great deal to the party, offering no feeders in Europe to other SkyTeam hubs and just duplicating many routes, flown from FCO, PRG, CDG and AMS.

AeroWesty · Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:18 pm

Press release from DL out: http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1822

Highlights of the agreement include:

• A fully integrated joint venture that will operate on a "metal neutral" basis with both airlines sharing the costs and revenues from all joint venture flights.
• A combined trans-Atlantic network between the United Kingdom and North America with 31 peak-day round-trip flights.
• Enhanced benefits for customers including cooperation on services between New York and London, with a combined total of nine daily round-trip flights from London-Heathrow to John F. Kennedy International Airport and Newark Liberty International Airport.
• Reciprocal frequent flyer benefits.
• Shared access to Delta Sky Club and Virgin Atlantic Clubhouse airport lounges for elite passengers.

The last item looks great!

by738 · Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:20 pm

Quoting acelanzarote (Reply 14):

Id say its less likely with everything getting funnelled through LHR

panamair · Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:23 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 16):
I'm not clear on whether Virgin will actually be joining the existing Delta-Air France-KLM JV, let alone SkyTeam, or just a separate JV with just Delta. I would think they would be included in the existing JV, but it doesn't seem clear from the press release.

I may be wrong, but I believe it's a new JV just between DL and VS - otherwise they would have mentioned the AF-KL-AZ JV in the press release; the press release also says "new joint venture". What this probably means is that the DL-operated flights to LHR (which currently carry the KL code as well), will now have KL and VS as codeshare partners, while the VS-operated LHR flights will only have DL as codeshare partner (not KL or AF).

LGWflyer · Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:25 pm

So with DL now having the 49% of Virgin, do you think there will be much change outside LHR, or any at all?

Also I wonder if DL should have stayed at LGW just a little longer...?

commavia · Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 20):
I may be wrong, but I believe it's a new JV just between DL and VS - otherwise they would have mentioned the AF-KL-AZ JV in the press release; the press release also says "new joint venture". What this probably means is that the DL-operated flights to LHR (which currently carry the KL code as well), will now have KL and VS as codeshare partners, while the VS-operated LHR flights will only have DL as codeshare partner (not KL or AF).

True - that would make sense given the press release. Interesting to see how that is handled, though, with the proprietary information sharing and everything else, given that Delta would then essentially have two different - and, ultimately, competing - JVs both "operating" the same flight.

N62NA · Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:40 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
I think we can expect the two carriers to rapidly move to improve the joint JFK-LHR schedule where the two do currently overlap pretty closely. I also wonder what this will do for BOS-LHR,

And I wonder if this means they'll end EWR-LHR.

Quoting shilenb (Reply 9):
Does this mean that VS will now join Skyteam?

Would seem to make sense that they would, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

anstar · Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:45 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 13):
Just a shame its not allowed to have 51%. If AF-KL get 2%, does that count for ownership as 51% together?

Bransons stake was never up for sale.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 23):

And I wonder if this means they'll end EWR-LHR.

I would presume VS will continue to operate from that market as they have done for the last 28 years! They have just opened a brand new lounge there less than a month ago.

avek00 · Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 22):
True - that would make sense given the press release. Interesting to see how that is handled, though, with the proprietary information sharing and everything else, given that Delta would then essentially have two different - and, ultimately, competing - JVs both "operating" the same flight.

If VS is not brought into the existing Skyteam TATL JV, I expect the latter to be modified to create a "carve out" for LHR/LGW such that the SkyTeam partners would not cooperate on London flying.

tjwgrr · Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting shilenb (Reply 9):
Does this mean that VS will now join Skyteam?

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 21):
So with DL now having the 49% of Virgin, do you think there will be much change outside LHR, or any at all?

Supplemental flights on VS from LHR to ATL and DTW someday? Similar to what KLM does at times from AMS?

DTWPurserBoy · Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:07 pm

It is interesting that this provides DL with another shot at LGW. The potential for domestic feed from DL to VS is excellent and gives Skyteam partners great access to prime time slots at LHR from a lot more cities. All in all DL is proving themselves to be creative in a very tough business environment. It also provides DL with a great source for maintenance issues while in the UK without having to go the expense of establishing a large maintenance base themselves. Can't wait to see what they do next. Maybe AS? They are sitting on a lot of cash and are always looking for a bargain that makes good economic sense, hence cornering the MD90 market and buying MD-82's from SK to be used as spares. With the refinery coming online it will be intersting to see how this affects the bottom line.

triple7x · Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:08 pm

Quoting docpepz (Reply 8):

That is a pretty low price....considering how much did SIA paid in the past for the shares

LJ · Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:11 pm

Quoting AirCanadaA330 (Reply 12):
Quoting shilenb (Reply 9):
Does this mean that VS will now join Skyteam?

Yeah I am wondering the same thing. Wasnt there a post a few months ago stating that Star wanted VS?

I don't think it's pretty much clear as DL and VS have a metal neutral JV and DL control 49% of VS.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 17):

I wonder how Air France and KLM feel, as it potentially means this new tie up will take traffic away from their AMS and CDG hubs on routes to America.

They probably won't mind as there aren't so many connections to the European mainland. Moreover, this benefits them greately as they can sell Skyteam much better to their corporate clients.

BTW will be interesting to see if DL wants to use the second daily LHR-BOS slot and the daily LHR-MIA again, as they can free two daily VS slots for another flight.

9VSIO · Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:34 pm

I can't believe SQ let it go at such a low price.

stlgph · Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:35 pm

Quoting VCy (Reply 3):
How many were there before?

for schedule, summer 2013, DAL @ 10, VAL @ 21.

N62NA · Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 24):

I would presume VS will continue to operate from that market as they have done for the last 28 years!

*Past performance is no guarantee of the future....

But, anyway, it was announced just a little while ago that they will keep their EWR service.

cosyr · Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:37 pm

Who will be moving where at LHR? There is not enough room at Terminal 4 for VS, and as it is now, there is not enough room at Terminal 3 for DL, unless AA moves out. That could happen, but then what about DL's other partners.

Terminal 3 could work if AA moves and AC moves to the new 1 soon, then there might be room for the more occasional Skyteam airlines at 3, but with the Skyteam lounge at 4, I would think 3 would be a bit of a step down.

Or could this be a catalyst for 3 getting a new terminal build after 1 is complete?

LGWflyer · Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:40 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 27):
It is interesting that this provides DL with another shot at LGW.

As much as I'd love them to come back here, I expect they most likely won't soon as they are only focused for LHR (and made it pretty clear). I do wonder however though if they did stay just a little more longer .i.e still here now, if anything would be different. Even though VS are big at the leisure routes from here, could DL have had an advantage now that they own 49% than before. Plus the VS HQ is just 2 mins down the road from Gatwick.

globalflyer · Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:42 pm

If all but SkyTeam airlines left T4 at LHR and swapped with VS into T3 would that leave enough room? Also I would LOVE to see VS metal on some DL hubs routes like LHR-ATL. I soubt it will happen but it would be cool!

skipness1E · Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:43 pm

What would change at LGW with DL and VS codesharing? It would make no difference to the bottom line except on LAS and MCO. It's not as if VS feed LGW, wishful thinking mate. They're not coming back, they're really not.

UAL777UK · Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:01 pm

As expected SRB is not giving up control of his Baby, that was never going to happen. I would like to see the small print in this deal. Is VS actually joining ST? Have I missed this somewhere?

STT757 · Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:02 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 23):
And I wonder if this means they'll end EWR-LHR.

DL has recently added EWR-CDG and EWR-AMS. Bringing in VS's EWR-LHR obviously rounds out their international portfolio at EWR giving them 4 daily Trans-Atlantic flights from EWR.

[Edited 2012-12-11 08:03:40]

nwcoflyer · Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
Well now it's official. I still struggle to see how this is worth $360M to Delta - but Delta's management seems to think they know what they're doing

I agree- DL management has done some real out side the box things lately. From the oil refinery to this, they never cease to amaze me. They have also been doing a good job on paying debt down. I wonder how long it will take them to see a return on this investment?

N62NA · Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 38):
DL has recently added EWR-CDG and EWR-AMS. Bringing in VS's EWR-LHR obviously rounds out their international portfolio at EWR giving them 4 daily Trans-Atlantic flights from EWR.

I noted that it was mentioned in their official announcement that they will be keeping EWR (for now), so not sure why you posted what you did. Here's my follow up post that you may have missed:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 32):
But, anyway, it was announced just a little while ago that they will keep their EWR service.

shilenb · Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting cosyr (Reply 33):
Terminal 3 could work if AA moves

AA will never move from T3 as this does not agree for Heathrow's plan to have alliance members under 1 terminal

AF185 · Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 29):
Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 17):

I wonder how Air France and KLM feel, as it potentially means this new tie up will take traffic away from their AMS and CDG hubs on routes to America.

Quoting LJ (Reply 29):
They probably won't mind as there aren't so many connections to the European mainland. Moreover, this benefits them greately as they can sell Skyteam much better to their corporate clients.

I agree, I think DL-VS will mostly capture the London market from all over the US, while the AF-KL-DL-AZ JV will keep focusing on both P2P and connections throughout Europe.

Congrats to DL, impressive coverage of European markets thanks to their well managed partnerships and investments!

anstar · Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:24 pm

Quoting Triple7X (Reply 28):

That is a pretty low price....considering how much did SIA paid in the past for the shares

SQ bought at a PEAK - it was also a time that LHR was alot more closed and restricted and everyone thought LHR was profitable regardless.

Things have changed, the Middle East carriers are much more competitive with SQ nowdays. SQ have refocussed and have now invested in Virgin Australia and are focussing more on their region.

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 37):
Is VS actually joining ST? Have I missed this somewhere?

VS have mentioned they are now evaluating Skyteam entry - I would guess they will announce it after all the dust settles.

Quoting AF185 (Reply 42):
while the AF-KL-DL-AZ JV will keep focusing on both P2P and connections throughout Europe.

The JV covers all UK - US/Canada/Mexico direct flying.

So that includes GLA-MCO, MAN-LAS, MAN-MCO on VS and MAN-ATL with DL.

It is not jsut LHR/LGW

[Edited 2012-12-11 08:34:59]

GCT64 · Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 25):
If VS is not brought into the existing Skyteam TATL JV, I expect the latter to be modified to create a "carve out" for LHR/LGW such that the SkyTeam partners would not cooperate on London flying.

The TATL JV situation seems to be possibly getting quite complex and untidy. So DL could easily have a TATL JV with AF/KL offering JFK-EDI (via AMS) competing with a TATL JV with VS offering JFK-EDI (via LHR). How, without breaking non-disclosure agreements between the various parties, does DL avoid being in a price war with itself?

BTW - it might be a contrary viewpoint, and I have no fanboi-ism about anyone or any axe to grind, but I think it will all end in tears

[Edited 2012-12-11 08:28:41]

STT757 · Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:30 pm

With the addition of VS DL's EWR-Trans-Atlantic portfolio is impressive, four daily! Not too many (any?) cities in the US can claim to have four daily Trans-Atlantic flights from a non hub carrier. VS also recently opened a new Clubhouse at EWR:

http://www.jaunted.com/story/2012/12...+Class+Clubhouse+at+Newark+Airport

Could this become a Delta club, either replacing or complimenting their existing club room. Perhaps for AMS and CDG travelers?

skipness1E · Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:31 pm

So will Virgin still be the anchor tennant in th STAR terminal at LHR now? Oh wait that was last week's plan! Will we see them in T4? Nope, no room. Staying with Oneworld in T3 then I guess!

seansasLCY · Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 46):

So will Virgin still be the anchor tennant in th STAR terminal at LHR now? Oh wait that was last week's plan! Will we see them in T4? Nope, no room. Staying with Oneworld in T3 then I guess!

According to the current webcast Delta will seek to colocate with VS at T3.

anstar · Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 46):
So will Virgin still be the anchor tennant in th STAR terminal at LHR now? Oh wait that was last week's plan! Will we see them in T4? Nope, no room. Staying with Oneworld in T3 then I guess!

Domestic flights will operate from T2 from 2014.

questions · Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:35 pm

DL has been trying for the past few years to be hipper than AA and UA, e.g., new Sky Club designs and IFE. Seems that they could use a little help from VS to shake that down south image.

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