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ldvaviation
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:35 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 92):
Are you seriously trying to compare BA's LHR network with that of another carrier?

Yup, there is only one network airline at LHR and only one alliance will have a true hub there.
 
AusA380
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:59 pm

Now that a US airline has purchased up to 49% of a major airline in a 1st world country, will this trigger some thinking of allowing the rest of the world to be able to purchase up to 49% of US airlines if they wanted to?
 
brilondon
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:00 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 69):
That is interesting. I suppose VS and DL would want to use T3 and that would leave the rest of the SkyTeam airlines that fly to LHR as T4 tennants. I don't think this is that big a deal since it is very unlikely that there is a meaningful number of passengers connecting from DL flights to the likes of AF, AZ, MU, KQ, KL, SV, etc. and vice versa at LHR.

I can only see this as a plus for people who are connecting through LHR. I personally don't care but I can see how not going to CDG would be positive.

Quoting Triple7LR (Reply 72):

I guess we will see SEA-LHR. RA hinted it would be the next international destination from SEA when DL announced SEA-HND and SEA-PVG.

Let us hope that is the case. It certainly would make the trip to London, UK quicker that having to either transit through MSP, LAX, or JFK from HNL.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
MaverickM11
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:04 pm

Congrats UA/Star on suddenly becoming the third-run in LHR Transatlantic; I wonder what their next move will be...

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 100):
Yup, there is only one network airline at LHR and only one alliance will have a true hub there.

True, but this gives Skyteam a good boost, and further locks Star out.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 67):
Another union vote is in the works

There's always one in the works.

Quoting commavia (Reply 64):
I actually don't think this has much impact on AA/BA one way or the other

   It really doesn't change much on the LON point of sale as long as VS has no regional/shorthaul network to speak of; it does make them slightly more appealing now that they have a legitimate network partner in the US.
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brilondon
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 103):
It really doesn't change much on the LON point of sale as long as VS has no regional/shorthaul network to speak of; it does make them slightly more appealing now that they have a legitimate network partner in the US.

Was there not something about EI flying domestically for VS on these threads, although I can't see it being like a feeder to LHR unless there is going to be another announcement about former BD routes being taken over by VS.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
Mir
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:10 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 95):
4 of the 9 flights on that route are 757s, so apparently larger aircraft aren't a requirement for success on EWR-LHR.

When you throw United into the mix, you're going to have lots of 757s, yes.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 95):
VS only has 2 flights on EWR-LHR. We keep having it beaten into our brains here on a.net that "frequency is king" so DL selling seats on just 2 flights out of EWR (one in the morning, one in the evening) isn't very good for "the businessman."

"The businessman" is probably going to be flying on United EWR-LHR. DL's strong market is out of JFK - they don't have nearly the same following across the Hudson, and would get beaten badly if they tried to go after one of United's prime routes. All they're really looking for is a piece of the local O&D market, and a couple of flights per day is sufficient for that.

-Mir
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FlyCaledonian
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:13 pm

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 97):
I can't imagine why VS, who is an established carrier on the BOS-LHR sector, would want to give up a premium TA route like that only to establish themselves in a new market like SEA where they've had no presence? It would be MUCH more profitable for DL to establish this route given their current presence in SEA.

Well the aim of the JV is to be metal neutral, so costs and profits of all flights UK-USA will be shared between VS and DL. My hypothetical suggestion of VS giving up LHR-BOS would be because it would be a way for the joint venture carriers to pick up an extra LHR slot (from AA/BA) and then transfer an existing slot to launch a new route.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
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usdcaguy
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:16 pm

Quoting AusA380 (Reply 101):
Now that a US airline has purchased up to 49% of a major airline in a 1st world country, will this trigger some thinking of allowing the rest of the world to be able to purchase up to 49% of US airlines if they wanted to?

Not likely, as long as the Democrats are in charge of the Senate and White House. Why in the world should they enact more flexible legislation when it would not appeal to American airline workers, many of whom are represented by unions that support the Democrats? Come to think of it, most American carriers would not even agree to it. No reason to open yourself up to outside influence unless there's cash to be made, and that's no longer the concern it was before so many carriers went through bankruptcy.
 
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N62NA
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:36 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 105):
"The businessman" is probably going to be flying on United EWR-LHR. DL's strong market is out of JFK - they don't have nearly the same following across the Hudson, and would get beaten badly if they tried to go after one of United's prime routes. All they're really looking for is a piece of the local O&D market, and a couple of flights per day is sufficient for that.

Yep - though they have 2 flights already - adding another 1 or 2 in the evening would give them a fighting chance.  

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 107):
Not likely, as long as the Democrats are in charge of the Senate and White House. Why in the world should they enact more flexible legislation when it would not appeal to American airline workers, many of whom are represented by unions that support the Democrats?

I try to steer clear of politics on here, but there's one thing that you wrote that I'm not so sure is correct. My gut tells me that the rank and file airline union workers (most likely pilots and mechanics) probably did not vote Democrat. Though it would be interesting to get some inside perspective on this.
 
BD338
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:39 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 102):
I can only see this as a plus for people who are connecting through LHR. I personally don't care but I can see how not going to CDG would be positive.

Connections from LHR - are limited to UK destinations only. Per the fact sheet on the DL Newsroom site. Connections to european destinations are handled via AMS and CDG. This deal is all about DL access to LHR and then feeding to/from their US network. Be interesing to see how integrated they become. As a Y passenger with lots of Skymiles, I will be able to take advantage of the better (IMHO) Y product on VS and VA across both oceans on both sides of the USA  
Quoting AusA380 (Reply 101):
Now that a US airline has purchased up to 49% of a major airline in a 1st world country, will this trigger some thinking of allowing the rest of the world to be able to purchase up to 49% of US airlines if they wanted to?

it would be nice to think so, but I doubt it. There is no rational reason for the current 25% limit. Defense contractors can be owned by foreign companies but not airlines. Logic?


....and for DL's next trick...buy VX  
 
Prost
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:59 pm

Quoting BD338 (Reply 109):
it would be nice to think so, but I doubt it. There is no rational reason for the current 25% limit. Defense contractors can be owned by foreign companies but not airlines. Logic?

My understanding is the US can mobile the civil fleet of airlines for use in times of war, and that flexibility for readiness might be taken away if the fleets were owned by foreign powers.

It is quite amazing how much in our nation is tied to defense--ie. the interstate system.
 
AusA380
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:10 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 110):
My understanding is the US can mobile the civil fleet of airlines for use in times of war, and that flexibility for readiness might be taken away if the fleets were owned by foreign powers.

But if the airline is still 50.1% US owned with majority US Citizens on the board, why would the board allow plane to leave the country in the time of a crisis. Also, in the event of a crisis, surely air traffic control would not permit departures. Not sure the defence argument is a real issue.
 
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mayor
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 60):
What does this mean for DL and VS employees? Do you think DL employees will be able to fly on VS for free? I'm assuming no. I bet it will be something like the Alaska JV where it's a reduced ZED fare.

It was possible back in the 90s when DL and VS had their codeshare tie up. Things have changed, since,though, when trying to fly with Skyteam and JV members. Most of them are now ZED fares.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 67):
Another union vote is in the works. This news will just add fuel to the fire. Look for IAM to represent the f/a's in the not-too-distant future. The times,they area changin'.

Unless I'm mistaken, DL has never done this on ANY of the JV flights and I don't see why they would, now. Just another way for the unions to spin it to try and get the rank and file to vote their way.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
FlyKev
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:35 am

Never saw this coming but I think VS is an excellent fit for the new Delta and I look forward to seeing this joint venture in action and I hope it makes my Flying Club membership so much more worthwhile.

Kev.
The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only
 
MaverickM11
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 112):
Unless I'm mistaken, DL has never done this on ANY of the JV flights and I don't see why they would, now. Just another way for the unions to spin it to try and get the rank and file to vote their way.

It's ridiculous; AF's unions are the ones that should be throwing the tantrum since DL has picked up half their US flying 
I don't take responsibility at all
 
delimit
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:01 am

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 100):
Yup, there is only one network airline at LHR and only one alliance will have a true hub there.

While this doesn't much strengthen DL/SkyTeam for LHR fliers vs. BA, it does nicely add to their bargaining power for anyone that wants to fly to London. And, of course, all those loyal VS fliers in the UK will start being funneled onto DL's planes for travel beyond the VS ports in the US.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 60):
Quoting Prost (Reply 110):
My understanding is the US can mobile the civil fleet of airlines for use in times of war, and that flexibility for readiness might be taken away if the fleets were owned by foreign powers.

That logic is so very outdated at this point, unless someone believes that a EU-owned US carrier would deny the US gov's request for planes.

The law is pure protectionism at this point.
 
dank
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:30 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 94):
I doubt VS would leave EWR, for starters EWR is a premium route for VS with two daily flights. The only other cities with two or more VS flights to London are JFK and LAX, all the others (MIA, LAS, IAD, BOS, SFO etc..) are single daily.

SFO is double daily on VS most of the year.
 
olddominion727
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:35 am

I bet we'll see VS SEA-LHR not too long after the tie-up. Does SA)">DL still fly MIA-LON? Does VS? I bet we see that condensed to one and the other's code on it. Maybe VS to SLC? This ties in with VS' order for the A330, match SA)">DL, KL, AF. I think this does add more legitimacy to ST instead of thinking it to be a band of third-world carriers like SV, SU, CI, VN. I think they really need SA though...
 
notdownnlocked
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:38 am

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 60):

I would guess 100% NO!!! Used to be all flights codeshared with a DL number were free to employees just as if flying on DL. Back then I flew VS Upper Class JFK-LHR-LAX as well Varig, Sabena, Austrian, and others. Now with the ZED program nothing is free.
 
rwy04lga
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:48 am

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 60):
What does this mean for DL and VS employees? Do you think DL employees will be able to fly on VS for free? I'm assuming no. I bet it will be something like the Alaska JV where it's a reduced ZED fare.

Definitely not free! It would probably be similar to the AF/KL JV fares. Lower than ZED-low fares. In 2009, I flew AF 773 CDG-JFK for $46 (plus taxes). Also, while DL upgrades non-revs, AF didn't. VS probably won't either. Oh well, at least the price is right!
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
EddieDude
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:57 am

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 84):
Reciprical Frequent Flyer Miles - Should come pretty soon. Much quicker than JV. ~ Hopefully they allow accrual of MQM's

Good point. MQMs accrual should be possible. Other DL non-SkyTeam "alliance" partners allow that, right? I am talking about AS, HA and VA specifically.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 89):
Questions....with this 49% stake in VS, would DL be allowed to fleet-transfer a/c from VS to DL, and vice versa?

In a metal-neutral JV, it does not make sense to transfer DL planes to VS and viceversa. I don't think this is in the cards. Maybe in the future a joint order for better bargaining power could take place.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 99):
They should change their name from Virgin Atlantic to Virgin Atlanta.

LOL! Made me laugh a lot man.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 102):
I can only see this as a plus for people who are connecting through LHR. I personally don't care but I can see how not going to CDG would be positive.

Well, but the number of SkyTeam destinations ex-LHR that DL fliers will have available through VS and the SkyTeam members that serve LHR is substantially lower than the destinations that AMS, CDG and FCO offer (the same applies for SkyTeam passengers flying to the U.S. from Europe and Asia). That is why I believe the number of SkyTeam connecting passengers at LHR is not very meaningful. Plus, AMS is a great airport for connections, and it is not only the hub of DL's JV partner KL, but also a hub (of sorts) of DL itself (legacy of NW). Even with the VS JV, LHR will continue to be for DL a mostly O&D destination by far.
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DeltaMD90
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:04 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 120):
In a metal-neutral JV, it does not make sense to transfer DL planes to VS and viceversa.

Most people are so clueless when it comes to JVs. I mean look at some of the replies, "DL not going to fly to LHR anymore so the FAs are gonna get pissed and vote union." Ridiculous.
 
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N62NA
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:18 am

Quoting delimit (Reply 115):
And, of course, all those loyal VS fliers in the UK will start being funneled onto DL's planes for travel beyond the VS ports in the US.

I'm not so sure that would work too well at JFK and EWR as DL really doesn't have such an extensive domestic network out of those (though they do have more out of JFK than EWR).
 
delimit
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 122):
I'm not so sure that would work too well at JFK and EWR as DL really doesn't have such an extensive domestic network out of those (though they do have more out of JFK than EWR).

Works out of JFK for a number of destinations, unless the VS flight arrives after the DL connection bank. Should offer a few connections out of BOS as well.

And, of course, if you're interested in earning Virgin miles, there's the DL flights to ATL, with connections to basically everywhere.
 
DTWLAX
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:40 am

First of all, congratulations to Delta for striking such an amazing deal.

DL, with this JV with VS, is now a major player in the US-UK market. Another important aspect of this JV is the tremendous boost DL (and Skyteam hopefully) gets in the LAX-LHR market.
We all know how the AF flight fared on this route a few years ago with no feed at all on both ends. Now they go from no flight on the route to 2x daily (3x in summer) leapfrogging UA and Star Alliance in the process.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:50 am

Just somthing I found. I'm betting DL is pushing hard for a VA-SkyTeam knot.

Quote:
Delta’s plan is to continue to have its trans-Atlantic joint venture with Air France-KLM and Alitalita and add the Virgin Atlantic piece to its network as its own joint venture. Virgin Atlantic executives said the deal with Delta would be the first steps for it to evaluate formal membership into SkyTeam.
What gets measured gets done.
 
danielkandi
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:04 am

Sorry i cant read through all of this and make sense of it. but does this mean flying blue members will eventually get to earn points, or only delta card holders?
Flown on : md80, md95, Avro RJ85/100, Q400, Atr42/72, a319/320/321, a332/a333, a343/346, b733 and up, 757, 747, 767 and
 
delimit
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:05 am

Quoting danielkandi (Reply 126):

Sorry i cant read through all of this and make sense of it. but does this mean flying blue members will eventually get to earn points, or only delta card holders?

I would guess just DL until VS decides to join SkyTeam.
 
vv701
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:17 am

Quoting sqsfo (Reply 86):
WIth this deal going thru, VS/DL could be the major superpower across the pond into UK(specifically LHR).

Not really likely.

Last winter (2011-12) BA/AA offered 60 per cent of the scheduled seats between LHR and all North American destinations. Between them DL and VS offered only 19 per cent. Check it out on page 12 here:

http://www.msmaviation.com/publicdocs/Transat_Winter_2011_2012.pdf

Simply obtaining the LHR slots to treble their North Atlantic offering would be a significant initial hurdle.
 
PHX787
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:32 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 120):
In a metal-neutral JV, it does not make sense to transfer DL planes to VS and viceversa. I don't think this is in the cards. Maybe in the future a joint order for better bargaining power could take place.

So there's some speculation then that VS could end up ordering more Boeing planes?
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deltal1011man
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 37):

doesn't matter. VS won't join star with a DL JV. VS will very likely end up in the AF/KL/DL/AZ JV and SkyTeam.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 45):
Could this become a Delta club, either replacing or complimenting their existing club room. Perhaps for AMS and CDG travelers?

not likely on the first one, likely on the 2nd.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 62):
They are non union . DL could easily have VA take over their LHR flts with VA crews . DL FA have no scope or protections against stuff like this . Could be scary .

two things, Delta still has to deal with DALPA which does have limits on JV flying. Also Delta is about to have another FA vote. They are stupid enough to outsource 10 TATL flights right before a union vote.

Quoting panamair (Reply 65):

DL's existing JVs have shown that your 'scare' scenario will not happen. In fact, with the current AF-KL-AZ JV, DL has more flights on their own metal to AMS and CDG now than ever before. For instance, CDG will see 12 DL-metal flights a day next summer; that's more DL metal than ever, even with the combined DL and NW flights from a few years ago.

.....whoa. Nice example with CDG/AMS, but how about we take a look at the rest of Europe......

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 67):
Look for IAM to represent the f/a's in the not-too-distant future.

IAM? where is this coming from? AFA/TWU joint union thing(run....run as fast as you can FAs. Not playing. (and run from the worthless IAM too)) is the one pushing for the new vote.

Quoting NYCAdvantage (Reply 70):

Since you bring this up, I wonder if DL/VS would add another EWR-LHR do you think it would affect the O/D LHR traffic on UA?

highly unlikely. Growth in NYC-LON will be from JFK.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 78):
$360m is a lot to risk on a small, currently unprofitable airline. Can this purchase turn VS around? We'll see.

doesn't matter. The LHR slots alone are worth this. (plus)

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 89):
Questions....with this 49% stake in VS, would DL be allowed to fleet-transfer a/c from VS to DL, and vice versa?

not like your thinking. DL/VS can always lease each other aircraft though.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 93):
Which raises an interesting question. Apart from JFK there's little overlap between Delta and Virgin's network. I'm sure Delta would like to add more flights to existings hubs at ATL and elsewhere. Delta and Virgin don't have any spare slot pairs so is Virgin going to pull any Africa/Asia routes to add transatlantic capacity?

AF/KL still have slots that can be used for LHR growth. (AF still has the ex SEA/LAX slots on CDG-LHR)

Quoting STT757 (Reply 94):

I doubt VS would leave EWR, for starters EWR is a premium route for VS with two daily flights. The only other cities with two or more VS flights to London are JFK and LAX, all the others (MIA, LAS, IAD, BOS, SFO etc..) are single daily.

agreed.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 95):
assuming DL could add at least another flight or two in the evening out of EWR.

wont happen.

Quoting QANTASvJet (Reply 98):
4 DL buys VA which also joins SkyTeam. Operates as a brand that appeals to consumers who like to think of themselves as independently-minded while actually enjoying all the advantages offered by big corporates. (ie Apple customers.)

VX would then have to fly jets with 76 seats or less.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 97):
I can't imagine why VS, who is an established carrier on the BOS-LHR sector, would want to give up a premium TA route like that only to establish themselves in a new market like SEA where they've had no presence? It would be MUCH more profitable for DL to establish this route given their current presence in SEA.

Delta and virgin are going to be the same. Delta could(I think) get a slot from BA to fly BOS-LHR 2x daily, then DL use the old BOS-LHR VS slot for SEA-LHR. Virgin/Delta are going to want tog row as much as they can, this is an easy way to do so.

Quoting mayor (Reply 112):
Just another way for the unions to spin it to try and get the rank and file to vote their way.

.....uh it is an issue. They have zero protection. it *could* happen. As i say below, Richard wanted to replace NWA FAs across the Atlantaic at one point. He could do it tomorrow at Delta(again, he wont. you don't piss off employees right before a union vote, or if they have been voting and it has been as close as it has been with Delta lately.)

Quoting mayor (Reply 112):
Unless I'm mistaken, DL has never done this on ANY of the JV flights and I don't see why they would, now

they havent.

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 117):
I bet we'll see VS SEA-LHR not too long after the tie-up.

I bet you wont. A DL 763 is much more likely.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 119):
Definitely not free! It would probably be similar to the AF/KL JV fares. Lower than ZED-low fares. In 2009, I flew AF 773 CDG-JFK for $46 (plus taxes). Also, while DL upgrades non-revs, AF didn't. VS probably won't either. Oh well, at least the price is right!

this is why you use AF/KL as a back up plan only, or fly to AMS/CDG on Delta metal.  
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 121):

slow down. Its not stupid. Delta FAs have no scope, no protection. Delta *could* replace them with contract workers if they wanted. IIRC Richard had a plan like this when he was at NWA. (of course the Union told him to piss up a rope)

but it wont happen. Delta is trying to kiss FA butt, not piss em off.
 
PHX787
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:55 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 130):
not like your thinking. DL/VS can always lease each other aircraft though.

What's the probability of that happening, and what kinds of leases? like, which a/c to who and vice versa? This is a very curious acquisition to me
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mayor
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:39 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 131):
What's the probability of that happening, and what kinds of leases? like, which a/c to who and vice versa? This is a very curious acquisition to me

First of all, this isn't really an "acquisition" at all. It's a proposal for a codeshare, JV and hopefully, membership in Skyteam. They acquired 49% but VS still controls things, keeps their brand and operate as a separate airline.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
danielkandi
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:42 am

god I hope they join Skyteam! Before my australia 4city tour in April plz!!!
Flown on : md80, md95, Avro RJ85/100, Q400, Atr42/72, a319/320/321, a332/a333, a343/346, b733 and up, 757, 747, 767 and
 
MSPNWA
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:44 am

About all I see in this is DL spending $360 million to bolster the NYC-LON market. Very little of the VS network conflicts with DL. So DL isn't eliminating a competitor except on the JFK-LHR and BOS-LHR routes. The rest of the network is either overlap with the AF/KL JV (the VS hub at LHR) or competing with other airlines like before. The change at JFK is going to be the magic potion that turns the VS side of things around? Or a shuffling of LHR slots to new cities like SEA? I doubt the cure is that simple. There's a lot of risk to this deal for DL. The one good news for SkyTeam is that maybe eventually they'll have LAX-LHR flights now.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 130):

doesn't matter. The LHR slots alone are worth this. (plus)

You bet it matters. It's called return on investment. DL is acquiring a significant stake in an airline that currently isn't making money. They need to turn that around or they will end up a net loser like SQ did. VS is showing that having LHR slots doesn't mean a thing on its own. There could be better ways to spend $360m.
 
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mayor
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:03 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 134):
About all I see in this is DL spending $360 million to bolster the NYC-LON market. Very little of the VS network conflicts with DL. So DL isn't eliminating a competitor except on the JFK-LHR and BOS-LHR routes. The rest of the network is either overlap with the AF/KL JV (the VS hub at LHR) or competing with other airlines like before. The change at JFK is going to be the magic potion that turns the VS side of things around? Or a shuffling of LHR slots to new cities like SEA? I doubt the cure is that simple. There's a lot of risk to this deal for DL. The one good news for SkyTeam is that maybe eventually they'll have LAX-LHR flights now.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 130):
doesn't matter. The LHR slots alone are worth this. (plus)
You bet it matters. It's called return on investment. DL is acquiring a significant stake in an airline that currently isn't making money. They need to turn that around or they will end up a net loser like SQ did. VS is showing that having LHR slots doesn't mean a thing on its own. There could be better ways to spend $360m.

I often wonder why you aren't sitting in DL's boardroom.  
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:11 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 135):
I often wonder why you aren't sitting in DL's boardroom.

That's Alaska Airlines... he's in the Sky Club.  
 
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:38 am

Hopefully DL will take the opportunity to pick up some valuable customer service tips from VS, so that they can try and re-educate their notoriously rude, grumpy, bored, arrogant, scruffy F/As and Passenger Agents on how to present themselves and how to do their job PROPERLY     
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mayor
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:46 am

Quoting viscount630 (Reply 137):

I think I'll call BS on this one         
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EddieDude
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:46 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 129):
So there's some speculation then that VS could end up ordering more Boeing planes?

That, I don't know. For the time being, VS has outstanding orders for A330s and 787s, no?

Quoting mayor (Reply 132):
First of all, this isn't really an "acquisition" at all. It's a proposal for a codeshare, JV and hopefully, membership in Skyteam. They acquired 49% but VS still controls things, keeps their brand and operate as a separate airline.

I am sorry to disappoint you, but it is an acquisition. It is the acquisition of 49% of the equity of VS. It may not be the acquisition of full control, but it is an acquisition.

Quoting mayor (Reply 132):
VS still controls things

VS is the entity that issues the shares and is the business that will be owned by Branson and DL once the deal closes. VS controls nothing. The controlling shareholder in any case is Branson... perhaps that is what you meant to write. In any event, control will be shared between Branson and DL to certain extent. In addition to DL being able to appoint 3 of the 7 directors, DL has more likely than not negotiated a wide array of supermajority rights that will give it veto power regarding relevant actions by the company.
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:19 am

Quoting BD338 (Reply 109):
Connections from LHR - are limited to UK destinations only.

Surely VS would also like to try and get some of the US-India.South Africa traffic connecting at LHR too from DL?

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
That, I don't know. For the time being, VS has outstanding orders for A330s and 787s, no?

Not A330's - they have all been delivered by Airbus.

They have 15 x 787's coming from 2014
 
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:23 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
I am sorry to disappoint you, but it is an acquisition. It is the acquisition of 49% of the equity of VS. It may not be the acquisition of full control, but it is an acquisition.

When I think of an acquisition, I think of them acquiring controlling interest in the airline or the airline, themselves. To me, this is just paying to make sure that VS agrees to go into the JV and/or Skyteam.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
VS is the entity that issues the shares and is the business that will be owned by Branson and DL once the deal closes. VS controls nothing. The controlling shareholder in any case is Branson... perhaps that is what you meant to write.

Excuse me. When I think of VS, I think of Branson and none of this would have happened without his ok. To me, they are interchangable, hence, why I used VS instead of Sir Richard's name.
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dank
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:37 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 141):
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
I am sorry to disappoint you, but it is an acquisition. It is the acquisition of 49% of the equity of VS. It may not be the acquisition of full control, but it is an acquisition.

When I think of an acquisition, I think of them acquiring controlling interest in the airline or the airline, themselves. To me, this is just paying to make sure that VS agrees to go into the JV and/or Skyteam.

I'd agree. If there wasn't a 51% shareholder out there, then DL likely would have control, but at the end of the day... Some of the comments suggest that DL will be running the show, but it's not like there wasn't a 49% shareholder before and I don't think people were thinking SQ ran the show...
 
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:41 am

Quoting dank (Reply 142):
Quoting mayor (Reply 132):

Thank you! Can you please help me teach some sense to the people on Virgin Atlanitc's facebook. I have been trying to teach them on what this deal is and what it means.

I know its like banging my head against he wall, but comments like "ugh Delta sucks! I wont fly with Virgin anymore" or "Delta sucks! how could you do this Virgin?" and "Virgin is now going to go down hill because of this" etc.
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deltal1011man
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:42 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 129):

They have 787s on order.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 131):

In this case nothing. Delta wont be taking any VS planes and VS wont be getting any Delta planes.

but in theory Delta could least any aircraft in its fleet to Virgin. Delta did this once with 2(IIRC) 737-832s going to westjet for a short amount of time(back with Delta now)

Quoting mayor (Reply 132):

First of all, this isn't really an "acquisition" at all. It's a proposal for a codeshare, JV and hopefully, membership in Skyteam. They acquired 49% but VS still controls things, keeps their brand and operate as a separate airline.

Its a stock acquisition but Branson still has control.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 134):
You bet it matters. It's called return on investment. DL is acquiring a significant stake in an airline that currently isn't making money. They need to turn that around or they will end up a net loser like SQ did. VS is showing that having LHR slots doesn't mean a thing on its own. There could be better ways to spend $360m.

Really? My goodness. Why aren't you the CEO dude? your always so clearly ahead of the the guys at Delta.....  
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 134):
About all I see in this is DL spending $360 million to bolster the NYC-LON market. Very little of the VS network conflicts with DL. So DL isn't eliminating a competitor except on the JFK-LHR and BOS-LHR routes. The rest of the network is either overlap with the AF/KL JV (the VS hub at LHR) or competing with other airlines like before. The change at JFK is going to be the magic potion that turns the VS side of things around? Or a shuffling of LHR slots to new cities like SEA? I doubt the cure is that simple. There's a lot of risk to this deal for DL. The one good news for SkyTeam is that maybe eventually they'll have LAX-LHR flights now.

This really isn't about helping VS. Heck I'm not even sure you will still see the airline 5 years from now. Its all about Delta growing to LHR. They just went from 10 flights a day to 31, tripled its NYC-LHR flights and also got key markets such as LAX-LHR, MIA-LHR and BOS-LHR.
Virgins (IMO) problem is the lack of any shorthaul network. Now, having a strong US partner with good feed in all of VS "big" cities, will help. Getting VS in Skyteam with will help VS more as it will give them some (limited) short haul codeshares out of LHR.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):

VS is the entity that issues the shares and is the business that will be owned by Branson and DL once the deal closes. VS controls nothing. The controlling shareholder in any case is Branson... perhaps that is what you meant to write. In any event, control will be shared between Branson and DL to certain extent. In addition to DL being able to appoint 3 of the 7 directors, DL has more likely than not negotiated a wide array of supermajority rights that will give it veto power regarding relevant actions by the company.

No way for us to know this really, but I don't think Delta is trying to play hero here just yet. I think Branson knows whats wrong with VS....sadly about the only to fix it would be buy BA.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
That, I don't know. For the time being, VS has outstanding orders for A330s and 787s, no?

I think they have taken all the 330s but do have 787s on order.
 
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:05 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
That, I don't know. For the time being, VS has outstanding orders for A330s and 787s, no?

And for A380's....

Cheers!   
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slinky09
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:15 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 144):
Virgins (IMO) problem is the lack of any shorthaul network.

VS launches short haul flying on March 31 next year.
 
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Dano1977
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:39 pm

I hate rain on peoples parades.

All of the above is just speculation until the necessary regulatory approvals have been rubber stamped.

Although I'm sure it's just crossing the T's and dotting the i's.


But

Hypothetically speaking... Could there be potential spanners in the works?
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DTWPurserBoy
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:22 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 91):
TIme to turn their attention south......time to set up shop in MIA if you ask me (as all the major latin partners have gone to one world or *A)

I could not agree more. A "Braniff International" type route structure out of MIA would be logical with routes to LIM, GYE, UIO, EZE, SCL, PTY, LPB and others. The 767-300ER would be a great airplane for it, too. The domestic system can provide ample feed to MIA. Gate space there might become an issue, however.
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LJ
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DL Acquiring 49% In VS

Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting QANTASvJet (Reply 98):

1 DL buys 49% of VS & they do codeshare deal
2 VS applies, and is allowed, to join the DL/AF-KLM anti-trust immunity deal. AF-KLM buy some but not all of SRB's shares in VS, which joins SkyTeam
3 Air Berlin leaves OneWorld and joins SkyTeam. Etihad, Aer Lingus and Virgin Australia also join SkyTeam.
4 DL buys VA which also joins SkyTeam. Operates as a brand that appeals to consumers who like to think of themselves as independently-minded while actually enjoying all the advantages offered by big corporates. (ie Apple customers.)
5 All concerned put feet up and light cigars

Maybe also on Skyteams timetable:
- EY buying into 9W and/or IT (whatever will happen)
- EY buying into a curently unknown airline which is up for sale or which needs cash

It surprised me it wasn't EY buying VS but DL....

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 144):
Getting VS in Skyteam with will help VS more as it will give them some (limited) short haul codeshares out of LHR.

You forget that VS, once in Skyteam, will also have feed at PVG. Moreover, I think that AF/KL can finally find good use of its excess slots at LHR, now it can reshuffle it more effeciently with the VS pool of slots.

BTW maybe we'll be seeing those VS birds again at AMS for maintenance.

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