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SCL767
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:18 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 49):
This was a short-lived experiment that was actually tested in W11/12, but did not last since it appeared to piss off LAN and they retaliated by adding new MIASCL frequencies. With joint coordination over schedules, the extra flights to DFW may return.

During that period, LAN simply added more frequencies on the SCL-MIA route due to high demand. Similarly, next month LAN will add even more frequencies on the SCL-MIA, SCL-CUN-MIA and SCL-PUJ-MIA routes due to high demand.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:31 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 49):
This was a short-lived experiment that was actually tested in W11/12, but did not last since it appeared to piss off LAN and they retaliated by adding new MIASCL frequencies. With joint coordination over schedules, the extra flights to DFW may

LAN and AA have immunity and have for years. It didn't get LAN mad. If anything, it was simply reallocating excess planes from drastically reduced Winter flying to Europe.
a.
 
SCL767
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:49 am

Quoting Tdan (Reply 21):
Ecuador-US is an interesting market...very different from BOG or LIM. Firstly, the market is very concentrated to MIA and NYC, making any other nonstops tough since the local markets are so small.

That is correct. In April, AA will increase frequency on the MIA-GYE route from 10x weekly to 2x daily. Earlier this month, LAN increased frequency on the GYE-JFK route from a daily service to 11x weekly.
 
EricR
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:26 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 49):
For starters, I would hardly say DFW has "struggled" with routes to South America. One route elimination (LIM) over the past decade is insufficient to substantiate this. DFW to Latin America is not synonymous with ATL to Asia.

Allow me to illustrate for you. DFW to:
BOG - No service
LIM - Discontinued for several years
CCS - Discontinued once, now one flight per week (if demand was that huge, AA could ask to transfer a frequency from MIA to DFW)
CLO - No service
MAR - No service
MDE - No service
UIO - No service
GYE - No service
LPB - No service
VVI - No service

This is an indication of the type of demand we are seeing from DFW. The combination of MIA as AA's main LATAM hub combined with week demand from DFW (and the western U.S.) limits the amount of capacity AA is willing to put on DFW-Northern South America. There is no need in arguing the point. The routes (or lack thereof) and performance of those routes speak for themselves.

[Edited 2012-12-27 07:34:28]
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 53):
LPB - No service
VVI - No service

Is there any US city not called Miami or Washington that can sustain Bolivia service? IAH-VVI might be interesting for gas industry connections, but that's it.

[Edited 2012-12-27 07:50:14]
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 53):
CLO - No service
MAR - No service
MDE - No service
UIO - No service
GYE - No service
LPB - No service
VVI - No service
DFW is never going to see service to those cities. IAH cant even sustain those sans UIO. Again, the only holes in the DFW-South American network have been LIM and BOG. With the lower BK costs, they will now be sustainable. The routes just got announced so obviously AA thinks so as well. Now that LIM and BOG have been announced, I do not expect to see anymore DFW-South America routes. Indeed, DFW-South America is not huge. Most of these flights do depend on connections. Ill never deny that.

Those cities you listed are not sustainable from DFW or virtualy anywhere except MIA, NYC, and maybe ATL and IAH.

Quoting EricR (Reply 53):
CCS - Discontinued once, now one flight per week (if demand was that huge, AA could ask to transfer a frequency from MIA to DFW)
MIA-CCS is the 2nd largest O&D point from MIA. Why would they transfer it? AA has asked Venezualan government for more frequency from DFW and JFK and has been denied.

Quoting EricR (Reply 53):
BOG - No service

Unless you havent read the title of the thread, it just got announced.

By the way are you going to send me a private message? If youre going to call me out, you **** well better be able to explain yourself and be specific.

[Edited 2012-12-27 08:10:51]
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
EricR
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 55):
Those cities you listed are not sustainable from DFW or virtualy anywhere except MIA, NYC, and maybe ATL and IAH.
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 55):
MIA-CCS is the 2nd largest O&D point from MIA. Why would they transfer it?

Hence my point. The demand is not to/from DFW or the western U.S. The demand is headed towards the eastern half of the U.S. DFW cannot support it on its own and connections are better served via MIA since the traffic is headed towards the eastern U.S. Thus the reason why DFW has historically limited service to the northern half of South America.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 55):
By the way are you going to man up and send me a private message? If youre going to call me out, you **** well better be able to explain yourself and be specific.

What is the point? I already outlined it to you above. You seem to believe that you are consistent in the measures you use across all hubs. I do not think you are. When discussing the viability of new routes from other hubs, you point out the PDEWs and draw a conclusion based on this without placing much emphasis on local market stimulation, connections, or code shares. Yet when it comes to DFW, you place a much greater emphasis on local market stimulation, connections, and code shares on routes that do not have a large number of PDEWs (such as BOG). I'll be happy to PM you some examples.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 56):
I'll be happy to PM you some examples.

Then do it. You havent explained anything specific nor have you outlined anything, youre just throwing around generalities.

Ill happily be PMing you rebuttles.

[Edited 2012-12-27 09:06:07]
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:24 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 50):
During that period, LAN simply added more frequencies on the SCL-MIA route due to high demand. Similarly, next month LAN will add even more frequencies on the SCL-MIA, SCL-CUN-MIA and SCL-PUJ-MIA routes due to high demand.
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 51):
LAN and AA have immunity and have for years. It didn't get LAN mad. If anything, it was simply reallocating excess planes from drastically reduced Winter flying to Europe.

My apologies, I was told a different rumor. Why then did AA pull the 3x weekly frequencies on DFWSCL?

Quoting EricR (Reply 53):
This is an indication of the type of demand we are seeing from DFW. The combination of MIA as AA's main LATAM hub combined with week demand from DFW (and the western U.S.) limits the amount of capacity AA is willing to put on DFW-Northern South America. There is no need in arguing the point. The routes (or lack thereof) and performance of those routes speak for themselves.

Of the 10 routes you listed, only three have ever been linked to DFW in the past. You can't make the argument that DFW flights have struggled to a certain region when you have such a low concentration of destinations to begin with. THREE? Those hardly provide you with any sort of insightful data points to draw any conclusions.

Again, nobody here is advocating that DFW commands strong O&D to Northern Latin America. For some reason, you seem bent on fabricating that belief exists on this thread and circling back to attack your own illusion and throw out words like, "underperformance" and "weak" etc.

I for one am a fiercely loyal DFW fan, but I embrace its challenges and weaknesses and have openly admitted that its Latin American hub falls below the ranks of MIA, ATL and IAH.

In fact, I would rather AA AVOID building up a Latin American hub at DFW and avert cannibalizing its MIA hub, driving down yields and ceding markets to the competition. This happened with US back when they tried to experiment with a FLL hub that ate into CLT. That doesn't take away from the fact that there are a few key Latin American cities that merit service to DFW, and LIM and BOG fall into that category.

Quoting EricR (Reply 56):
You seem to believe that you are consistent in the measures you use across all hubs. I do not think you are. When discussing the viability of new routes from other hubs, you point out the PDEWs and draw a conclusion based on this without placing much emphasis on local market stimulation, connections, or code shares. Yet when it comes to DFW, you place a much greater emphasis on local market stimulation, connections, and code shares on routes that do not have a large number of PDEWs (such as BOG).

Are you just bitter? I'm struggling to figure out your angle here, dude.
 
SCL767
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 58):
My apologies, I was told a different rumor. Why then did AA pull the 3x weekly frequencies on DFWSCL?

IIRC, AA operated the DFW-SCL route 10x weekly only for a few weeks. This season AA is operating DFW-SCL daily and MIA-SCL 2x daily. Next week, LA will increase frequency on non-stop and direct routes between SCL and MIA. For example, LAN will operate the SCL-MIA route up to 18x weekly non-stop. Also, next month LAN will launch SCL-GIG-MIA daily.
 
EricR
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 58):
For some reason, you seem bent on fabricating that belief exists on this thread and circling back to attack your own illusion and throw out words like, "underperformance" and "weak" etc.

Come on now......Call it what you want, but the fact that AA only has one weekly flight to the northern half of South America from DFW is weak. The lack of flights is indicative of their position.

You are letting your passion for DFW cloud your judgement. The fact that for years the only flight is a weekly flight to CCS says it all. Even AA knows this, and thus the reason for the limited service. You can try to position this or call this whatever term you want, but lack of flights to the region combined with poor historical success record speaks for itself. It is what it is.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 58):
Of the 10 routes you listed, only three have ever been linked to DFW in the past. You can't make the argument that DFW flights have struggled to a certain region when you have such a low concentration of destinations to begin with. THREE? Those hardly provide you with any sort of insightful data points to draw any conclusions.

And the reason why there were only three is because no demand existed. Of the three two were canceled. One of the two was reinstated, but AA chose to run it only once per week (spare me the issue with the Venezuelan government because if strong demand existed, AA would have moved a frequency from MIA to DFW). Nothing else but a weekly flight to CCS. Call it what you want, but that indicates a weak performance to me.

Could the code share and/or lower cost structure help? Possibly, but only time will tell because based on past performance, they will need the help of a lower cost structure and code share to make it work.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 58):
Are you just bitter? I'm struggling to figure out your angle here, dude.

Not at all dude. But when using criteria to analyze the viability of a route, you need to use the same set of criteria across the board or your results will be biased.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:49 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 60):
Come on now......Call it what you want, but the fact that AA only has one weekly flight to the northern half of South America from DFW is weak. The lack of flights is indicative of their position.

Of course it is weak. Did I ever say it wasn't???

Quoting EricR (Reply 60):
You are letting your passion for DFW cloud your judgement. The fact that for years the only flight is a weekly flight to CCS says it all. Even AA knows this, and thus the reason for the limited service. You can try to position this or call this whatever term you want, but lack of flights to the region combined with poor historical success record speaks for itself. It is what it is.

Clearly, you have issues with this passion. Hate to break it to you, but my passion is equally grounded in reality as it is in fervor. Again, I will say this for the final time: nobody here has remotely stated that AA commands, much less deserves, the same bandwidth of Latin American operations as does some of the other hubs in the SE US.

Rather, it seems to me that you possess some sort of psychotic anti-DFW rage and are fixated on attacking its weak presence to Northern Latin America (again, which nobody here has denied) in order to validate your own fury. Go ahead and do the same thing with DFW-Asia, DFW-Europe, DFW-Africa, DFW-Middle East, etc.

Every single one of us DFW fanboys, including myself, Commavia, LAXDude1023, among others, have ALWAYS stated that the international network out of DFW, be it on AA or other carriers, is pretty right and just for the time being, perhaps plus or minus a few more destinations that theoretically COULD (emphasis on COULD) work in the next 3-5 years. By no means are ANY of us claiming that DFW ought to be entitled to the same levels of recognition as NYC, LAX, SFO, MIA, ATL, ORD, IAD, hell, even SEA.

Just because they also lend their insights on other airports/threads doesn't mean they're doing so out of pro-DFW, anti-XXX spite. That seems to be YOUR issue.

Immature much?

Quoting EricR (Reply 60):
And the reason why there were only three is because no demand existed. Of the three two were canceled. One of the two was reinstated

Of those three, one never existed, one was suspended and reinstated a short while later, and the third is being resumed. All three will be functional within a few months. Please, for the love, quit grasping at straws out of pure desperation. You're making yourself look even more vulnerable with each post you make.

Quoting EricR (Reply 60):
Not at all dude. But when using criteria to analyze the viability of a route, you need to use the same set of criteria across the board or your results will be biased.

Everything I've posted above can be applied in response here. I'm fairly certain that my credibility levels have risen over the years and in cases when I am inaccurate and corrected, I acknowledge my errors modestly and publicly and thank the poster accordingly.

I'll happily toot my own horn here and suggest that you should maybe take a page out of my book.
 
EricR
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 61):
Quoting EricR (Reply 60):
Come on now......Call it what you want, but the fact that AA only has one weekly flight to the northern half of South America from DFW is weak. The lack of flights is indicative of their position.

Of course it is weak.

Then why were you so defensive when I previously stated that demand was weak? This goes back to what I said that you are letting your passion cloud your judgement. You criticize me for making certain statements, but when I back it up with proof, you get defensive and insinuate I have some type of anti-DFW bias or rage. No rage here, but I sense a lot of defensiveness from you when someone says something that you don't like (or want) to hear.

There is no doubt that AA has struggled with half of South America from DFW as is the case with one weekly flight. For you to push this point beyond what it is pointless. There is no need to get defensive. Just accept the fact.
 
AAIL86
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:28 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 17):
Correct me if I am wrong, but AA has started and stopped LIM, SCL, CCS before in the past. These routes do not seem to hang on long term.
Quoting EricR (Reply 60):
Come on now......Call it what you want, but the fact that AA only has one weekly flight to the northern half of South America from DFW is weak. The lack of flights is indicative of their position.

You are letting your passion for DFW cloud your judgement. The fact that for years the only flight is a weekly flight to CCS says it all. Even AA knows this, and thus the reason for the limited service. You can try to position this or call this whatever term you want, but lack of flights to the region combined with poor historical success record speaks for itself. It is what it is.

For comparison (week of 03FEB13 as per the GDS)
Right now UA serves the following from Houston (weekly) - BOG 14x, CCS 7x, UIO 7x, LIM 7x, GIG 7x, GRU 7x, EZE 7x. That's 9968 seats per week, including 1260 business class seats.

AA serves - CCS 1x, GIG 3x, GRU 9x, EZE 7x, SCL 7x. (LIM and BOG will be operated starting Q2/Q3 '13). Total seats equal 6692, including 1213 business/first class seats.

A couple things stand out there. For one, AA has an equal amount of premium seat capacity to South America from DFW despite that fact that IAH is UA's primary Latin America hub and has a monoploy on the oil traffic that drives premium demand at IAH (I'm actually a little surprised its this close in premium seats). Once AA launches DFW-LIM/BOG, IAH and DFW will have nearly equal seat counts to South America per week (assuming UA does not increase frequencies or add a new route).

Futhermore, DFW-CCS was reduced from daily because the government of Venezuela limited AA's available frequencies several years back, not because the route was breaking the bank. If anything, this massive amount of service from a secondary hub like DFW (in AA's Latin America scheme of things) just reinforce how dominint AA is to Latin America. Considering this, and the fact that AA is reinstating DFW-LIM and adding DFW-BOG, I can't possibly see why you are arguing this .....

[Edited 2012-12-27 15:29:53]
" Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness ... Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. ” - Mark Twain, 1869
 
EricR
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RE: AA: DFW-BOG, MIA-CWB/POA, JJ Codeshare

Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:06 am

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 63):
For comparison (week of 03FEB13 as per the GDS)
Right now UA serves the following from Houston (weekly) - BOG 14x, CCS 7x, UIO 7x, LIM 7x, GIG 7x, GRU 7x, EZE 7x. That's 9968 seats per week, including 1260 business class seats.

AA serves - CCS 1x, GIG 3x, GRU 9x, EZE 7x, SCL 7x. (LIM and BOG will be operated starting Q2/Q3 '13). Total seats equal 6692, including 1213 business/first class seats.

A couple things stand out there. For one, AA has an equal amount of premium seat capacity to South America from DFW despite that fact that IAH is UA's primary Latin America hub and has a monoploy on the oil traffic that drives premium demand at IAH (I'm actually a little surprised its this close in premium seats). Once AA launches DFW-LIM/BOG, IAH and DFW will have nearly equal seat counts to South America per week (assuming UA does not increase frequencies or add a new route).

Futhermore, DFW-CCS was reduced from daily because the government of Venezuela limited AA's available frequencies several years back, not because the route was breaking the bank. If anything, this massive amount of service from a secondary hub like DFW (in AA's Latin America scheme of things) just reinforce how dominint AA is to Latin America. Considering this, and the fact that AA is reinstating DFW-LIM and adding DFW-BOG, I can't possibly see why you are arguing this .....

Because the thread is littered with inaccuracies and false conclusions. For example, let's look at your comparison. To make this an accurate comparison relative to this conversation, you need to remove EZE, GRU, GIG since these routes were never in question. Also, you may want to look at my original post as well as the discussions regarding the CCS frequencies.

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