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chrisa330
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 99):
I take your point, in theory... but are you suggesting that they are purchasing new, and slimmer seats for these 2 aircraft than the seats they use in the rest of the fleet? I'm guessing "no".

I'll bet yes.

"Air Canada-originating Boeing 767-300ER and Airbus A319 aircraft with stylish and
modern cabin interiors featuring innovative new seats that increase customer space and
maximize comfort."
 
ScottB
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 30):
This has not worked out for any airline yet, and failed twice for AC. What is different about this?

You couldn't tell from the pictures??? The last two were green and purple, but this one is red! That makes it different!

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 80):
I think we have taken a whole 5 minutes to come up with the nickname that this venture will forever be remembered as...

Air Canada Rogue.
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 83):
"Two of our 767s have gone rogue!"

Perhaps they can hire Sarah Palin to be the spokesmodel.

Quoting catII (Reply 34):
Tango was never meant to be "low cost", as in overall lower operating costs. It was a different brand within a brand and was actually quite successful. It's now implemented on mainline fares, Tango basically means lowest fare. It allowed Air Canada to separate it's mainline brand (higher service) without alienating its mainline pax. When it integrated these fares within the mainline fare, they were able to sell the same brand (concept) within mainline.
Quoting catII (Reply 34):
This at least allows them to compete on a lower cost structure and it does effectively differentiate mainline flying from the leisure division. I think you're going to see a fairly significant transformation of mainline with a different business class on the newer aircraft, premium economy etc. They will no longer have to mix the two concepts of leisure and business into one airline. This allows them to tailor to one or the other.

So, let me see if I understand. They started Tango as a separate brand to take low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, but then re-integrated it into the mainline as a pricing level. Now they are starting yet another brand to take the low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, and using the Tango brand for low-fare/leisure pricing on a product which is already supposed to be low-fare/leisure.

They are almost always going to mix leisure and business into the airline because the airline needs both to survive. Even products like the Rapidair service will rely somewhat on connections at YYZ & YUL to leisure destinations. The mix varies by route, but the concept still hold. And there's great potential for brand confusion when the ordinary clueless passenger booking a flight to ATH on aircanada.com ends up with a product comparable to the charter carriers rather than "normal" AC.

Quoting catII (Reply 34):
Zip wasn't meant to fly out east, it was started with the same aircraft as WestJet (737-200) to compete with it on the same routes out west. This airline was discount, no frills, low cost. It was started while AC was in CCAA and was eventually absorbed by AC after they excited bankruptcy protection (CCAA).

Except obviously Zip failed to compete successfully.
 
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Polot
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 95):
Does TS move all its widebodies (23?) onto TATL? How many does AC put? Surely those 777s bring some serious capacity? Or are TS flying fuller planes?

Keep in mind TS really packs them in. Their A330s only have 4-7 less seats than AC's 773s, with their A310s having more seats than most of AC's 763s.
 
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yellowtail
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 22):
Stupid idea to start up this company but kudos on the scheme I think it is a lot nicer then the horrible toothpaste livery.

How come no one complains about SQ's attempt "Scoot"
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
brilondon
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:52 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 101):
Except obviously Zip failed to compete successfully.

Zip could not compete with the aircraft they had. Fuel inefficient 737-217's from CP's fleet.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:59 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 101):
So, let me see if I understand. They started Tango as a separate brand to take low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, but then re-integrated it into the mainline as a pricing level. Now they are starting yet another brand to take the low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, and using the Tango brand for low-fare/leisure pricing on a product which is already supposed to be low-fare/leisure.

Actually, Tango started the whole a la carte pricing that is now the norm for most North American and European carriers. Don't want to eat? Don't buy it. You don't care where in the aircraft you sit? Then you don't need to buy seat selection. Don't want to check two bags? Then don't pay for it.

When Tango, (the airline) started, no one else in North America was doing this. All legacy carriers, (Air Canada included) were giving it away for free, meals included. What they discovered, is that this is what people want. They don't want to pay for a service they wont use, or don't think it is worth the price difference. So Tango ended, and that fare level and service level was incorporated into Air Canada. And ... as history shows, everyone is doing it now.

Quoting Polot (Reply 102):
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 95):
Does TS move all its widebodies (23?) onto TATL? How many does AC put? Surely those 777s bring some serious capacity? Or are TS flying fuller planes?

Keep in mind TS really packs them in. Their A330s only have 4-7 less seats than AC's 773s, with their A310s having more seats than most of AC's 763s.

Yes, when I said that Transat carried more Canadians across the Atlantic than Air Canada, that is just purely numbers. Air Canada's load factor last summer was around 90 %, so I can't imagine Transat having fuller airplanes. But also realize that if you compared total revenue ... you would see that AC still comes out ahead. With higher fare levels above the bottom, up and and including full J, it really comes down to a higher yield.

That would appear to be the purpose of Rouge, to address the bottom end of the scale.

Quoting Shuttle9juliet (Reply 86):
Hi Longhauler, I am sure we were speaking about this the other day ...Strange it came up today.Will AC use existing flight deck or are they recruiting out with?

Yeah, I laughed when I saw EDI announced. I am going to guess that as more B767s are added to the Rouge fleet, GLA and MAN may see the maple leaf again, (or half of one, looking at the pictures).

Yes, the pilots are Air Canada pilots, who bid, or are force bid into the Rouge positions. Working conditions, pay and training standards are all different.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
catII
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:00 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 101):

They already to this anyway with the high density configured 763's, the two that are currently operating at mainline that will be transferred to rouge, as well as the 319's in a high density layout (I think they're former Mexicana birds). The truth is they need more aircraft like these in order to compete with the leaner charter airlines. Higher density seating and no frills.

Now they're taking the same aircraft, moving them into rouge, employing staff with lower wages and merging together as Air Canada Vacations with rouge being the main airline to do the flying; once this is up and running. Keep in mind, AC has something that AT doesn't, a fairly significant domestic and trans-border network that will allow for AC to connect people from all over. This is something Zoom didn't have.

It's much easier to do it this way than having different configured aircraft with no PTV's, no J class, higher density layout, no power-points at every seat, etc. This was causing a lot of confusion with people booking tickets and thinking they were going to be on a normally configured AC aircraft. This allows them to send airplanes to markets that don't currently support full service items that are currently at mainline. These are markets AC has served before, or would like to serve, but on a cost basis can't compete. There is a leisure market out there and in Canada it's a huge market. Mainline AC can't compete with the likes of the Canadian competition with their current structure. But, in order to compete on the other end, on routes that are higher yield, more business pax, etc. You need the other side of the spectrum as well.

Rouge may not reach up to 50 aircraft, but it just may work. They need to market this correctly and make it a clear differentiation between the two brands. When the competition is eating your lunch, you respond accordingly and this is AC's response.

A few people have mentioned in posts about AC's higher cost base. This is beginning to not be the case anymore as a lot of the new contracts with the unions have be re-negotiated, they're outsourcing a lot of maintenance, and a new pilot contract have helped reduce costs substantially by allowing AC pilots to do rouge flying on a different payscale. This, on top of a major pension overhaul, the end of mandatory retirement at age 60 for pilots, different scope terms in the new contract, moving the 175's to Sky Regional and the ability to use Sky Regional and other carriers to do domestic flying.

Recently, there was an article in the Post about Gregg Saretsky saying that WS and AC's costs have become much more inline, especially after the new pilot contract. Where there used to be a 30% difference between the two carriers, it's probably more like 10-15% now. That's a significant change and that margin will only be reducing as time goes on, WS gets bigger, their aircraft get older and AC continues to reduce costs with newer aircraft.

http://business.financialpost.com/20...ow-cost-airline-at-tuesday-launch/
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:06 am

Quoting brilondon (Reply 104):
Zip could not compete with the aircraft they had. Fuel inefficient 737-217's from CP's fleet.

As was Westjet ... the main competition at the time.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:25 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 107):
Quoting brilondon (Reply 104):
Zip could not compete with the aircraft they had. Fuel inefficient 737-217's from CP's fleet.

As was Westjet ... the main competition at the time.

WS didn't take delivery of their first 737NG until 2001, 5 years after they started service. Some of their startup fleet of 737-200s had as many as 8 previous operators.
 
brilondon
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:25 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 107):
As was Westjet ... the main competition at the time.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 108):
WS didn't take delivery of their first 737NG until 2001, 5 years after they started service. Some of their startup fleet of 737-200s had as many as 8 previous operators.

WS does not have the unionized workforce or the pensions that AC had to deal with at that time.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:04 am

Quoting brilondon (Reply 109):
WS does not have the unionized workforce or the pensions that AC had to deal with at that time.

No, and Westjet has blue airplanes and Zip was multicoloured. What's your point?

Here's what you said:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 104):
Zip could not compete with the aircraft they had. Fuel inefficient 737-217's from CP's fleet.

And we pointed out that in fact, WS was flying the same airplanes, in fact, some were exCP!

If Zip could not compete, it had nothing to do with the airplanes they were flying.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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RWA380
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:23 am

Quoting finnishway (Reply 2):
Quoting etops1 (Reply 1):Why do they think its a good idea to do this ?
It is a trend nowadays.

With the exception of Jetstar what airline, within an airline, concept has ever worked?
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
Hawaiian763
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:58 pm

And the odd's of Air Canada Rouge being a huge success is as likely as the Toronto Blue Jays winning the world series next year...

We've all seen what has happened to Air Canada's LCC's in the past, Tango lasted 3 years, Zip 2 years. If the chain continues, Rouge won't last very long
 
gooner
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:07 pm

Quoting mpsrent (Reply 92):

This is not true.Thomas Cook originally provided flights for Canadian Affair.The parent company of Air Transat bought out Canadian Affair.Canadian Affair ended their contract with Thomas Cook so they could exclusively use their in-house airline

[Edited 2012-12-20 06:08:07]
 
YYZYYT
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 101):
So, let me see if I understand. They started Tango as a separate brand to take low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, but then re-integrated it into the mainline as a pricing level. Now they are starting yet another brand to take the low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, and using the Tango brand for low-fare/leisure pricing on a product which is already supposed to be low-fare/leisure.

Actually, your confusion is justified., if you do not know AC's fare structure.

The Tango "unbundelled" fare model was introduced for doemstic and transborder mainline operaitons, but international operations have alwyas maintained a more traditional fare structure, with fewer opportunities to pick and choose. e.g., one way flights are discouraged, points are awarded at the full level, meal and drink service is still largely offered...

To be honest, I've wondered why - I assumed it had more to do with international competition and/or bi-national pricing rules.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting lostsound (Reply 89):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
How many Canadian carriers have tried and failed? Wardair, Canada 3000, Jetsgo, Greyhound Air, Roots Air, and the list goes on.

Yes, they were all poor business models. In order to survive in Canada you need a good product, a frequent flyer program, competitive frequency, and the lowest possible fare.

No, you just need low costs primarily, and a slow but steady capacity expansion that the market can absorb. All the above carriers deviated from this formula.

AC Rouge will need to keep its costs as low as the current LCC's in order to succeed.

Quoting catII (Reply 106):
Recently, there was an article in the Post about Gregg Saretsky saying that WS and AC's costs have become much more inline, especially after the new pilot contract. Where there used to be a 30% difference between the two carriers, it's probably more like 10-15% now. That's a significant change and that margin will only be reducing as time goes on, WS gets bigger, their aircraft get older and AC continues to reduce costs with newer aircraft.

It could go the other way. As WS gains more revenue from its Encore operation (which will also feed WS mainline) and as WS continues to add efficient 738 aircraft, you might see the cost gap grow again.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 110):
If Zip could not compete, it had nothing to do with the airplanes they were flying.

Agreed. Same aircraft type, same market. Different management. Zip's failure cannot be attributed to either the 732 or the market.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Airontario
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:20 pm

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 112):
And the odd's of Air Canada Rouge being a huge success is as likely as the Toronto Blue Jays winning the world series next year...

Very possible?

I'd put my money on the Jays winning the World Series.
 
brilondon
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 110):
Here's what you said:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 104):
Zip could not compete with the aircraft they had. Fuel inefficient 737-217's from CP's fleet.

And we pointed out that in fact, WS was flying the same airplanes, in fact, some were exCP!

If Zip could not compete, it had nothing to do with the airplanes they were flying.


Two

OK so...

Quoting airontario (Reply 116):
I'd put my money on the Jays winning the World Series.

Could happen, then so could the Tigers, the Yankees, Baltimore...Right now the Jays look good on paper but until see how the new parts fit together and then there is the health factor. But we really should continue this discussion on the non-av board
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
mpsrent
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:59 pm

Quoting gooner (Reply 113):

I don't disagree gooner about how both airlines operated for Canadian Affair or how Transat bought out the tour operator.

I will say that at the time the relationship ended I was booking a flight with Canadian Affair and the service representative told me that financial dealings with Thomas Cook had become problematic. How true that is I will never know.
 
by738
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:28 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 105):
I laughed when I saw EDI announced

Why ?
 
shuttle9juliet
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:36 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 119):

Because we had mentioned about AC returning to GLA,EDI on another post, then the next day we got this thread!, so a bit strange when you have been discussing something, then it actually happens...That was all ..
 
robsaw
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:31 am

Quoting catII (Reply 34):
Zip was different, the FA's were non-unionized, the pilots were part of mainline (as Rouge will be, albeit on a lower pay scale). Zip wasn't meant to fly out east, it was started with the same aircraft as WestJet (737-200) to compete with it on the same routes out west. This airline was discount, no frills, low cost. It was started while AC was in CCAA and was eventually absorbed by AC after they excited bankruptcy protection (CCAA).

Zip was meant to compete with then almost entirely western Canada based Westjet using 737 aircraft acquired by AC as part of its takeover of Canadian Airlines International (remnants of CP, Pacific Western, Wardair, etc). It was NOT started while AC was in CCAA, it was FOLDED after AC went into CCAA. It was simply dissolved as part of AC's restructuring and the planes disposed of as they were old and divergent from the rest of the AC fleet.
 
robsaw
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:36 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 49):
Glad to. Here's a couple:
1. The Federal Government intervened recently when AC unions were going to strike, preventing such a strike through legislation. This is a gross violation of the collective bargaining process, and deliberate favouritism towards AC mgmt by an interfering government. AC should be left to the marketplace to build or lose its fortune.
2. AC continues to operate lucrative international routes awarded to it when it was a Crown Corporation. These entrenched aurthorities represent an unfair market advantage overtly provided by a protective government, that continue to benefit AC today. AC's international route authority into all markets it operated to when it was privatized should be relinquished and put up to tender for all Cdn carriers. AC can of course bid on these routes fairly, along with WS, TS and anyone else. Then, and only then, will the Cdn industry be truly market driven, and a level playing field.

Nice try but those are opinion rhetoric not factual statements of gov't support of AC. Many carriers, even in the US, have legacy international route authorities left over from the days of highly regulated air travel. AC doesn't get gov't money and is also contrained by higher-costs due to language, headquarters, maintenance, and operational base requirements it must maintain as part of the privatization act.
 
robsaw
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:00 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 110):
If Zip could not compete, it had nothing to do with the airplanes they were flying.

It has something to do with why they couldn't compete but not everything.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:58 am

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 112):
We've all seen what has happened to Air Canada's LCC's in the past, Tango lasted 3 years, Zip 2 years.

Have you read any of the other posts in this thread?

Tango was primarily a fare structure, and continues to exist (you could even see it for yourself if you take a look at the AC reservations site).

Zip was an attempt to use orphan aircraft inherited from CP. It was dissolved as part of AC's CCAA restructuring. I don't think anyone outside AC management knows whether it was losing money or not during the time it existed.

[Edited 2012-12-22 04:03:04]
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
bergkampsticket
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:56 am

I'm hopeful this will be a success. I just booked a great priced return from EDI-LGA with them.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:54 am

Does anyone know / guess which terminal and gates they will use in YYZ? My family is looking at EDI-YYZ-YVR and I am wondering if immigration will be done in YYZ, or if they will go through a transit area and clear in YVR?

Basically want a guesstimate as to how much connection time would be needed in YYZ for booking the connecting YVR flight...
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:37 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 126):
Does anyone know / guess which terminal and gates they will use in YYZ? My family is looking at EDI-YYZ-YVR and I am wondering if immigration will be done in YYZ, or if they will go through a transit area and clear in YVR?

T1 at YYZ as for all other AC flights, and the standard connecting times. On flights to Canada involving domestic connections you always clear customs/immigration at the first point of arrival in Canada. AC shows 1 hr. 15 min. minimum connecting time at YYZ from an international to a domestic flight. It's 1 hour in the other direction since there's no customs/immigration outbound from Canada (except for preclearance to the U.S.).

The AC website has the new EDI flights and fares/connections now available for sale.
 
aerecosse
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 59):
Great for us anyway, my wifes family is from Fife so saves backtracking to AMS, paying crazy BA fares via LHR or the lovely drive to GLA to get on TS which is usually one flight per week so not too flexible. I suppose VS is now an option.

Looking at the TS website it shows flights between YYZ & GLA are year round and daily between 1 May - 31 Oct added to that they also offer flights to YYC & YVR between May and Oct from GLA too. You can even find 3 TS flights departing from GLA to Canada within hours of each other....... slightly more frequently than twice weekly from EDI between July & the start of October..... but wishing it every success!
Flown: BA,BD,BY,AMM,DA,MON,LC,BE,EI,FR,EZY,NW,CO,US,HP,F9,AC,QF,AN,NZ,TN,GZ,MH,EK,EY,PG,IB,JK,FH,BV,LH,SA
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting aerecosse (Reply 128):
Looking at the TS website it shows flights between GLA are year round and daily between 1 May - 31 Oct added to that they also offer flights to YYC & YVR between May and Oct from GLA too. You can even find 3 TS flights departing from GLA to Canada within hours of each other....... slightly more frequently than twice weekly from EDI between July & the start of October..... but wishing it every success!
TS (Canadian Affair) are cheaper than Rouge / AC too, for a direct flight to YVR its a no brainer. The price war has begun I guess, hope both airlines survive it.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 127):
T1 at AC flights, and the standard connecting times. On flights to Canada involving domestic connections you always clear customs/immigration at the first point of arrival in Canada. AC shows 1 hr. 15 min. minimum connecting time at Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:47 am

Quoting aerecosse (Reply 128):
slightly more frequently than twice weekly from EDI between July & the start of October.

Rouge is starting with two B767s, when they have 20 B767s which is planned, it will be a different story.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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rikkus67
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:59 am

I put in an official entry for "Voila!"... *sigh*

The branding of "Rouge" is definitely going to be mocked, as is already happening in this thread. The tail livery pretty much obliverates the modern/current version of the roundel, and it is interesting to see burgundy return to the colour pallet...

How many LCC within an airline have been tried (AC notwithstanding) now, worldwide...and how many have been successful long term?
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 124):
Tango was primarily a fare structure

Not initially. It was an LCC with a dedicated fleet, brand and colour scheme. Just like Rouge/Lipstick. Only after the Tango LCC concept failed, did AC keep the Tango name alive in a fare structure.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 124):
Zip was an attempt to use orphan aircraft inherited from CP.

I think it was the other way around. AC wanted to complete against the upstart WS and chose the 732 as the "weapon" so to speak. They could have chosen the DC-9-30, A320.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 130):
Rouge is starting with two B767s, when they have 20 B767s which is planned

It's hard to believe they will reach 20 767's. That would represent a huge capacity increase in the leisure market. Given than TS has trouble making $ with its lower cost structure in this market, it's hard to see how Lipstick can with its higher cost structure AND a huge capacity increase into this market (which will drive yields down even further).

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 131):
How many LCC within an airline have been tried (AC notwithstanding) now, worldwide...and how many have been successful long term?

Dozens. Zero.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 132):
It's hard to believe they will reach 20 767's. That would represent a huge capacity increase in the leisure market. Given than TS has trouble making $ with its lower cost structure in this market

I agree. The only way I can see it happening is if something like Jetstar occurs where the LCC starts taking over a lot of mainline flying as a preference to "price" over "quality" is displayed.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 132):
Only after the Tango LCC concept failed, did AC keep the Tango name alive in a fare structure.

I wouldn't say Tango failed, as in my opinion Air Canada IS Tango. The passenger preference for a la carte pricing, which at the time was only offered by Tango in North America, became the now norm for North American airlines.

One of the attributes of Tango, that at the time was impossible on any other airline was being able to combine fare levels on one trip. I recently spoke with a businessman who stated that was the best change in aviation in 20 years! He would buy the lowest fare level for his outbound trip, as he was certain what would not change, but buy a higher level allowing changes for the return.

After September 11, when Legacy carriers were faced with the requirement to change the way they do business, I recall Don Carty of AA saying that the Tango concept was the future of Economy travel in North America. Turns out he was right.
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:14 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 133):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 132):
Only after the Tango LCC concept failed, did AC keep the Tango name alive in a fare structure.

I wouldn't say Tango failed, as in my opinion Air Canada IS Tango.


But Tango was just a common name for 2 completely different concepts.

The first Tango was a dedicated LCC within an airline, which definitely failed (otherwise, it would still be around).

The second Tango was/is a low-end fare structure, with arguable origins in the first Tango. This lives on to this day.
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connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 133):
I wouldn't say Tango failed, as in my opinion Air Canada IS Tango. The passenger preference for a la carte pricing, which at the time was only offered by Tango in North America, became the now norm for North American airlines.

One of the attributes of Tango, that at the time was impossible on any other airline was being able to combine fare levels on one trip. I recently spoke with a businessman who stated that was the best change in aviation in 20 years! He would buy the lowest fare level for his outbound trip, as he was certain what would not change, but buy a higher level allowing changes for the return.

After September 11, when Legacy carriers were faced with the requirement to change the way they do business, I recall Don Carty of AA saying that the Tango concept was the future of Economy travel in North America. Turns out he was right.

   All valid points, Longhauler, underscoring that those actually IN the business know far more than some others. As well, as you have previously pointed out, Zip was not necessarily a failure, but had to go as one of the CCAA outcomes.

I myself made use of the Tango brand and found it completely OK expecting an LCC-type in flight service. I was not disappointed. Some odd routings, mind you, one was YOW-YQG-YWG. But I got there. As for Zip, had it been allowed to live and migrated to an all-Y 319 or 320 platform, who knows.

Hopefully Rouge will be a success. But the barriers to entry are fairly substantial. AC should not put unlimited resources into it.
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 134):
But Tango was just a common name for 2 completely different concepts.

No, the concepts were the same ... the a la carte pricing, made only possible with a powerful website. That concept was completely different from Air Canada mainline, (and every other airline in North America). When it was decided to make all of Air Canada's North American Economy product a la carte, then the 'airline within an airline' became superfluous.

Then that Tango brand name was offered on mainline Air Canada aircraft, carrying over the came concept. The only difference between Tango and Air Canada mainline is that the higher fare levels, up to and including Executive Class were now offered.
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 136):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 134):
But Tango was just a common name for 2 completely different concepts.

No, the concepts were the same ... the a la carte pricing, made only possible with a powerful website.

The concepts were not the same. They were completely different. Tango #1 was a small, dedicated fleet of A320s and 732's with its own brand, schedules and colour scheme in all Y seating with low fares.

Tango #2 (the current tango) is simply a fare type on all of AC mainline.
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 137):
The concepts were not the same. They were completely different. Tango #1 was a small, dedicated fleet of A320s and 732's with its own brand, schedules and colour scheme in all Y seating with low fares.

I think you are missing my point. With the invention of the Tango concept, came a passenger preference for that type of pricing and flying. The decision had to be made .... either expand the Tango fleet (as it WAS popular), or make every flight a Tango flight and incorporate it into Air Canada.

That is why I feel Tango was a success, as it developed a new product which became the base for every airline in North America today.

It is a lot like when CP had F/J only aircraft crossing the country. It was a success. Air Canada had to respond by either doing the same, with a dedicated fleet of F/J aircraft to meet the demand ... or make a domestic J product to compete. That was the start of the domestic Executive Class product, incorporated into the Air Canada fleet.
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Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:31 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 138):
It is a lot like when CP had F/J only aircraft crossing the country. It was a success.

Assume you're referring to the initial Attaché product using 737s with only F and J seating. It wasn't a success to the best of my memory. It was unprofitable and was quickly dropped. Many flights operated with very low load factors. There just wan't enough demand for that type of product even on the prime business routes.
 
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:35 am

MASTER PLAN
I thought this was all part of the master plan. Start a discount airline with no pension or legacy costs, shift over some assets, declare bankruptcy, and then Crossair, oops i mean Rouge, can buy some of those assets including foreign based staff, rename itself Air Canada International, and we're off an running minus the legacy issues, with nice new livery to boot.....Air Canada unions have been predicting this for several years.....
 
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:53 am

Getting There is Half the Fun!
 
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:27 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 139):
Assume you're referring to the initial Attaché product using 737s with only F and J seating. It wasn't a success to the best of my memory.

I think that is what it was called. Using -200s and -300s? I had heard it was successful and was dropped when AC matched it with Executive Class, then CP responded with the J/Y configuration.

Then there was "The Company Jet", same thing, a premium product of CPs, YYZ-YUL.

Quoting stuYYZ (Reply 140):
Start a discount airline with no pension or legacy costs

The only thing cheaper with respect to costs are the pilot hourly wage. Every other cost is the same as mainline, including pensions! Ironically enough, looking at the employee groups within Air Canada, only the pilot costs were on par with most competitors. The other employee groups, which are much higher than industry standard cost, remain unchanged!
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Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:42 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 142):
I think that is what it was called. Using -200s and -300s? I had heard it was successful and was dropped when AC matched it with Executive Class, then CP responded with the J/Y configuration.

Then there was "The Company Jet", same thing, a premium product of CPs, YUL.

That was even less successful (and shorter-lived) than Attaché. Regardless of the product it was hard to compete with AC's much higher frequency on a route like Toronto-Montreal.

[Edited 2012-12-30 18:52:04]
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:37 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 139):
Assume you're referring to the initial Attach
[quote=longhauler,reply=142]Reply 142, posted Sun Dec 30 2012 21:27:47 your local time (30 minutes 5 secs ago) and read 48 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 139):
Assume you're referring to the initial Attaché product using 737s with only F and J seating. It wasn't a success to the best of my memory.

I think that is what it was called. Using -200s and -300s?
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 143):
That was even less successful (and shorter-lived) than Attaché.

Of CP's initial 3 733's delivered in early 1985, 2 were in the Attache colour scheme, and the 3rd in the usual orange CP livery which well suited the 733, and being the only one in this scheme, was notoriously hard to spot.   The Attache colour scheme was terrible
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:27 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 144):
Of CP's initial 3 733's delivered in early 1985, 2 were in the Attache colour scheme, and the 3rd in the usual orange CP livery which well suited the 733, and being the only one in this scheme, was notoriously hard to spot.   The Attache colour scheme was terrible

I wouldn't say terrible, but of course the CP Air livery was sharper. That's why I also like the new Rouge livery.


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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Official Launches LCC, Rouge

Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:21 pm

Thanks SpaceshipDC10. The CP colours look great on that 733. Attache not so much.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.

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