LOT 787 Gone Tech?

TC957 · Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:30 am

Seen reports that todays LO787 due at LHR didn't happen and also tomorrow's due flight won't be the 787 either....

Delta777Jet · Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:12 am

Last week I was supposed to fly MUC-WAW and the flight was cancellt last minute and replaced by an aging 734 with a 3 hour delay !

ordwaw · Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:41 am

LOT's SP-LRA has been grounded due to mechanical problems/damage to the landing gear. This is following problems with door seals requiring to operate at low altitudes (FL240) and problems with electronics for which it was previously grounded.

It appears that LOT is taking a very safe and cautious approach to all these teething problems, making sure that they fully understand what is happening with the plane and that all issues are fixed before the plane is airborne again.

The flip side is that three or so days of flights have been cancelled, and there are many enthusiasts who booked these flights to experience B788 but flew on a B734 instead.

The good news is that the second B788, SP-LRB should land at WAW at 3:00 pm today ...

[Edited 2012-12-21 04:09:28]

gr09 · Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:10 pm

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 2):
It appears that LOT is taking a very safe and cautious approach to all these teething problems, making sure that they fully understand what is happening with the plane and that all issue are fixed before the plane is airborne again.

I read from a few people who already had the pleasure that the landings at WAW are very rough. Might this be related to the landing gear issue or is there some other type of problem?

Tupolev160 · Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:25 pm

Quoting gr09 (Reply 3):

The roughest landings i know have all been in India, and very fast as well.

ushermittwoch · Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:01 pm

Well, I guess I did luck out that I didn't/don't have time on the dates where they scheduled their BRU-WAW flights on the Dreamliner. Money well saved.

okay · Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:04 pm

Sounds like they have some teething problem which is totally normal and I see it as good behavior of LOT to investigate any problems thoroughly. I remember when AY received the E-jets, the start went surprisingly smoothly, until the winter arrived!

okAY

ordwaw · Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:06 pm

Quoting gr09 (Reply 3):
the landings at WAW are very rough.

Actually, one of the Polish papers or aviation sites, forgot which, claims that the landing gear problem came up after a rough landing of the flight from PRG at WAW on Tuesday. The next flight to MUC was cancelled and the aircraft has been out of service since.

This is strange. These initial B787 flights are relatively light, with a cap of 175 passengers, not even close to MLW. The weather was OK. In addition, if Polish pilots can successfully land a B767 w 230+ people on board at WAW without landing gear as it was demonstrated last year by Captain Wrona, I am not sure what can be so different with a B787 (?)

gr09 · Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:41 pm

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 7):
Actually, one of the Polish papers or aviation sites, forgot which, claims that the landing gear problem came up after a rough landing of the flight from PRG at WAW on Tuesday. The next flight to MUC was cancelled and the aircraft has been out of service since.

On a Czech forum they mentioned Wednesday. If I'm not mistaken, they also said that after that landing LOT didn't use a jetway but the plane was parked on a remote stand straight away.

ordwaw · Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:07 pm

Quoting gr09 (Reply 8):
On a Czech forum they mentioned Wednesday

Lost track of time ... You are right, it was Wednesday.

ThomasCook · Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:12 pm

I flew WAW-PRG on 14/12 and PRG-WAW on 16/12 and have to say that both landings where quite probably the smoothest i've ever encountered! Both flights also seamless!

ThomasCook

emp · Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:14 pm

That's really disappointing, I should be sitting inside the 787 in a few hours - flight is now "downgraded" to a 737

Danny · Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:15 pm

In the meantime the second 787 has just landed at WAW airport.

debonair · Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 12):
In the meantime the second 787 has just landed at WAW airport.

Ok, need your help - I will fly in January on LOT's B787 (hopefully). So the question is, will the 2nd B787 be availble to take over the flights of the first B787 or is it scheduled to other routes as well?

ordwaw · Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting debonair (Reply 13):
will the 2nd B787 be availble to take over the flights of the first B787 or is it scheduled to other routes as well?

Apparently this is already happening.

The new SP-LRB, which arrived in WAW at 3pm today, Friday, will have its first revenue flight WAW-VIE at 6:45 pm today.

SP-LRA is apparently fixed now, and is supposed to fly WAW-LHR tomorrow, Saturday.

mke717spotter · Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:14 pm

Long-term are the 787s still occasionally going to be doing some of these short-haul routes throughout Europe? IIRC I think LO used to send their 767s to TLV but that's about it.

Quoting Danny (Reply 12):
In the meantime the second 787 has just landed at WAW airport.

NIce! There's some pics of it up on LO's Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...1411.269021210937&type=1#!/PllLOT. Do they fly in straight from PAE or BFI?

Danny · Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:19 pm

Vienna flight is being done by 737.

ordwaw · Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
Vienna flight is being done by 737

Apparently plans change faster than I can follow them ...

Source in Polish
http://kontakt24.tvn.pl/temat,klopot...naprawiony,71206.html?categoryId=2

ordwaw · Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 15):
Long-term are the 787s still occasionally going to be doing some of these short-haul routes throughout Europe? IIRC I think LO used to send their 767s to TLV but that's about it.

The plan was to have these intra Europe flights on 787 completed by January 15, 2013.

Then on January 16, 2013 start WAW-ORD-WAW.

and follow early February with WAW-YYZ-WAW and WAW-JFK-WAW (once LP-LRC is in place) and in March WAW-PEK-WAW (once LP-LRD is in place).

With the introduction of B787 aircraft, the old B767 were supposed to be phased out.

There were no scheduled flights on B767 beyond North American and Asian destinations.

There were occasional charter flights (perhaps the ones to TLV) or one-off flights say to LHR to pick up stranded passengers due to adverse weather conditions on prior days (e.g., volcanic ash in 2010)

ordwaw · Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
Vienna flight is being done by 737

Apparently SP-LRB has gone technical once completed the delivery flight from the US a few hours ago. Experts are looking into the root cause of the problem.

Polish lead news site www.gazeta.pl has a lead story - "Second Dreamliner defective upon arrival"
http://wyborcza.biz/biznes/1,100896,...uje_do_Warszawy.html#BoxSlotII2img

[Edited 2012-12-21 11:08:36]

Seems a deja vu of QR's experience. Except LO does not have Al Baker as a CEO ... (well they do not even have a formal CEO at the moment, so no one to scream ...)

[Edited 2012-12-21 11:11:01]

ikramerica · Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 18):
The plan was to have these intra Europe flights on 787 completed by January 15, 2013.

If that's the case, they have to avoid damaging any more aircraft before that time.

BlueShamu330s · Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:32 pm

Speaking to someone in LOT, I have just been told "you wouldn't take a car with this level of failure, never mind two."

I wonder if there's a common denominator or cause....

It sense there is intense irritation with the situation.

Rgds

BlueSky1976 · Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 20):
If that's the case, they have to avoid damaging any more aircraft before that time.

Lot did not do any actual damage to their 787s. The aircraft has issues, not the airline.

ikramerica · Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:51 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 21):
Speaking to someone in LOT, I have just been told "you wouldn't take a car with this level of failure, never mind two."

The second aircraft was just delivered. If the first is out of service due to a hard landing, who's fault is that? Boeing's? The Pilots'? God? Someone else?

qantasguy · Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:56 pm

I hope this gets fixed soon. I know it was disappointing to those at LKPR Thursday am when out of the fog came......a 737. Flightaware reported a 787 en-route too, so even more surprise. Hope LOT can fix and they come back to LKPR and beyond soon

It was a beautiful first arrival Friday, many people to witness

flood · Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 23):
The second aircraft was just delivered. If the first is out of service due to a hard landing, who's fault is that? Boeing's? The Pilots'? God? Someone else?

The second was delivered - but it went tech as well. With regards to the landing, a mod at FT stated "the brake assembly overheated and a titanuim part got damaged". Don't know how accurate that is, but I haven't come across any other info (in English, anyway).

[Edited 2012-12-21 12:39:18]

konrad · Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:47 pm

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 19):
Apparently SP-LRB has gone technical once completed the delivery flight from the US a few hours ago. Experts are looking into the root cause of the problem.

This is not confirmed.

The 2nd plane delivery flight arrived from PAE at 3:15pm and there was not enough time to rig it up for the 6:45pm flight to VIE. Let us see tomorrow if the dreamtour continues with LHR in the morning and VIE in the afternoon.

[Edited 2012-12-21 12:49:42]

[Edited 2012-12-21 13:13:44]

tdscanuck · Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 21):
I have just been told "you wouldn't take a car with this level of failure, never mind two."

Of course not. But the incident rate for cars is far far lower than for aircraft. If you held aircraft (from any OEM) to the reliability standard of modern cars, nobody would ever take delivery of anything.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 21):
It sense there is intense irritation with the situation.

I'm sure there is...wouldn't you be pissed if something you'd payed ~$100 million for and waited and extra 3 years didn't even make it home without an issue?

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 22):
Lot did not do any actual damage to their 787s.

That wasn't clear from earlier in this thread:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 2):
LOT's SP-LRA has been grounded due to mechanical problems/damage to the landing gear.

Tom.

flood · Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting konrad (Reply 26):
The 2nd plane delivery flight arrived from PAE at 5:15pm and there was not enough time to rig it up for the 6:45pm flight to VIE.

Sure you don't mean 15:15? Both flightaware and FR24 show the aircraft arriving at 3:15pm - which should be sufficient.

ordwaw · Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting konrad (Reply 26):
This is not confirmed.

The 2nd plane delivery flight arrived from PAE at 5:15pm and there was not enough time to rig it up

Officially confirmed by LOT's spokesman ...

quoting www.gazeta.pl

Rough Google Translate translation from Polish ...
On Friday, flew from Boeing's factory in Everett in the U.S. The second Boeing 787 Dreamliner owned by LOT Polish Airlines. It was supposed to fly to Vienna today, but it broke.
Machine with registration numbers SP - LRB started on Friday at 5.36 Polish time Paine Field airport in the United States. Landed about 15:30 at Warsaw Okecie. About 17:20 the flight was to fly to Vienna. However, according to LOT's spokesman Mark Kłuciński LOT airplane did not take off from Warsaw. Instead a Boeing 737 substituted. The Commissioner explained that the second dreamliner was signaling a fault and noted that the carrier now checks the problem. It will not perform any flights on Friday.

W piątek przyleciał z fabryki Boeinga z Everett w USA drugi samolot Boeing 787 Dreamliner należący do PLL LOT. Miał dziś odlecieć do Wiednia, ale się zepsuł.
Maszyna o numerach rejestracyjnych SP - LRB wystartowała w piątek o godzinie 5.36 czasu polskiego z lotniska Paine Field w Stanach Zjednoczonych. Wylądowała ok. 15:30 na warszawskim Okęciu. O 17:20 miała wylecieć w rejs do Wiednia. Jednak jak poinformował rzecznik prasowy PLL LOT Marek Kłuciński samolot nie wystartował z Warszawy. Zamiast dreamlinera podstawiono Boeinga 737. Rzecznik wyjaśnił, że w drugim dreamlinerze zauważono sygnalizację pewnej usterki, którą przewoźnik teraz sprawdza. Maszyna w piątek nie uda się w żaden rejs.

konrad · Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:16 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 28):
Sure you don't mean 15:15? Both flightaware and FR24 show the aircraft arriving at 3:15pm - which should be sufficient.

I beg your pardon, of course it was 15:15 (already edited in the original post).

ThomasCook · Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:35 pm

Hi,

Regardless of it arriving at 15:15, I doubt that is really enough time to enter it into service. Most aircraft are not delivered with everything in place ready to straight out on line. There is likely a lot of personalisation required including emergency equipment such as BCFs, PBEs etc...

ThomasCook

RickNRoll · Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:51 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 21):
Speaking to someone in LOT, I have just been told "you wouldn't take a car with this level of failure, never mind two."

Are the money men interfering in this program again, by pushing out planes that aren't ready.

peterinlisbon · Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:16 pm

So United, Qatar and now LOT have all had serious problems with their new 787s! And defective aircraft have been delivered to both Qatar and LOT. What's going on?

7BOEING7 · Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:23 pm

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 32):
Are the money men interfering in this program again, by pushing out planes that aren't ready.

If the airplane doesn't pass its FAA mandated "tests" both on the ground or inflight it doesn't deliver--the money guys aren't part of the equation, although there have been times they'd like to be.

Airplanes in their first few years of life continually come up with new and "interesting" issues--that's just a fact of life. Many people won't buy a new car model in its first year of production if its a drastic change from the previous years model--same thing. There's always a price to pay for having the fanciest new toy on the block.

BlueShamu330s · Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:38 pm

Thomas Cook

Wide of the mark there.

Aircraft can and have left Seattle fully service ready.

Rgds

RickNRoll · Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:41 pm

I can get a "roadworthy" report on my car, it will certify that the car is safe and won't kill anyone. It doesn't tell me that the car is not going to require major maintenance or repairs in the near future, or that the heating and airconditioning works. I don't think the planes aren't safe, that people's lives are being put at risk, Boeing wouldn't do that. I'm just saying it is possible that several aren't ready to be delivered yet, but are being rushed out.

7BOEING7 · Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:45 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 35):
Thomas Cook

Wide of the mark there.

Aircraft can and have left Seattle fully service ready.

Rgds

That is true, but many require "personalization"--some even require seats. Don't know which category LOT falls into.

ordwaw · Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 37):

According to Polish news station TVN24, LOT's spokesman, Marek Klucinski, announced that SP-LRB would service Friday's flight to Vienna following its arrival from the factory. I would assume that LOT's management knows whether a plane is personalized enough and ready to take passengers.

ThomasCook · Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:43 am

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 35):
Wide of the mark there.

Not necessarily. We don't know how the aircraft are handed over and as another member pointed out, some carriers take delivery without seats fitted; notably, BA. I am pretty sure LOTs 787s are delivered with the full cabin installation however, that said, there are still likely other aspects not yet in place for instance, as mentioned, certain equipment, IFE content etc.

ThomasCook

zkokq · Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 39):

Not to mention the catering they would have to put onboard.

traindoc · Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:10 am

ANA and JAL have the largest 787 fleets, and these are earlier build airplanes. Yet, they seem to be having few problems with them. The more recent builds, planes delivered to UA, LO, QR, and AI seem to be more trouble prone. Any idea what is going on? Boeing is certainly getting egg on its' face, and deservedly so! Makes you think that the Three Stooges are over seeing the 787 program.

tdscanuck · Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:46 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 36):
I'm just saying it is possible that several aren't ready to be delivered yet, but are being rushed out.

What could be wrong with an airplane that would make it not ready to deliver, yet would still be allowed to actually deliver (by Boeing, the airline, and the regulators)? The OEM can't make the airline take delivery if they don't want to, and they can't deliver even if the airline wants it if the regulator says, "No."

Quoting traindoc (Reply 41):
Any idea what is going on?

A new type is entering service. What's odd here isn't what's happening to the airplane, it's the level of reporting. Basically exactly the same thing happened with the A380 EIS. The 787 and the A380 are the first EIS's with major and ubiquitous media coverage.

Quoting traindoc (Reply 41):
Boeing is certainly getting egg on its' face, and deservedly so! Makes you think that the Three Stooges are over seeing the 787 program.

In that case, all Boeing introductions have been run by "the Three Stooges". So far, the 787 hasn't done anything odd for a new type introduction. The exact nature of the bugs is unique, as it always is, but the fact of bugs is not. We just hear way more about them now than we did before.

Tom.

HAWK21M · Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:19 am

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 4):

The roughest landings i know have all been in India, and very fast as well.

What Airline/Sector.....

Danny · Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:10 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 23):
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 21):
Speaking to someone in LOT, I have just been told "you wouldn't take a car with this level of failure, never mind two."

The second aircraft was just delivered. If the first is out of service due to a hard landing, who's fault is that? Boeing's? The Pilots'? God? Someone else?

There was no hard landing. Don't believe everything you see posted on the web.

SP-LRB with 1 hour delay but is on route to London Heathrow.

[Edited 2012-12-21 23:56:13]

BlueSky1976 · Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:54 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 27):
Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 22):
Lot did not do any actual damage to their 787s.

That wasn't clear from earlier in this thread:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 2):
LOT's SP-LRA has been grounded due to mechanical problems/damage to the landing gear.

Tom.

It was mechanical problem. Fixed. I suspect some sort of material defect in the part of the landing gear, as the landing itself was nothing out of the ordinary (as reported by many LO DreamTour passengers, all landings were "smooth" - surely they would have noticed hard one).

SP-LRB is most likely something related to electrics/electronics, as the warning light went on during pre-flight check before planned trip to VIE. More than likely, something was done out of sequence due to the rush of the crew, as everyone was struggling to get SP-LRB to fly the Vienna evening round trip. The 737 was truly last minute substitution, it went out 2 hours late.

ordwaw · Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:33 am

It is Saturday morning and SP-LRB is on its way to LHR.

BlueSky1976 · Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:50 am

...and I think we may as well close this thread; both 787s are operational, though SP-LRA is not flying today AFAIK.

worldrider · Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:37 am

Yet another 787 going tech just after delivery. "someone" isn't taking its time and doesn't want to pay penalties.

Fortunatly no disaster hasn't happened so far.

PlaneHunter · Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:13 am

Quoting worldrider (Reply 48):
Yet another 787 going tech just after delivery. "someone" isn't taking its time and doesn't want to pay penalties.

Pure speculation, I'd say.

Quoting worldrider (Reply 48):
Fortunatly no disaster hasn't happened so far.

So which 787 problem (after delivery) has been really dangerous? Probably you know more than anyone else here? Facts, please.

PH

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