Found this on AA.com.....It clearly says: "....on a flight to Delhi with American Airlines." I thought AA 292/293 ORD-DEL was axed last year, what's going on?

http://www.aa.com/i18n/travelInforma...inationInformation/delhi/delhi.jsp

I really hope they bring back this flight. Much better than Air India.

That section does not have much to do with reality of where AA operates to, but AAvacations can still get you there.

For example, other old stations are covered there as well, plus ones AA has not served at all - eg - Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Istanbul, Tel Aviv, Seville, Prague, Singapore, etc...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):

Oops, haha, that is true!! Thanks!

Quoting kann123air (Thread starter): I really hope they bring back this flight. Much better than Air India.

This is true, it was very popular but also very long. I'm not a huge fan of super long-haul flights and in regards to Air India, I fly KLM.

Leo/ORD

Im still upset this route was cut, it stings. Was a unique and popular route for AA. At least ORD Still has AI daily.

High chance it will come back as a result of a merger .

Quoting etops1 (Reply 5): High chance it will come back as a result of a merger .

Don't see what a possible merger with US has to do with re-starting this route.

I would say that there is a good chance of it coming back as a result of Ch.11 restructuring as well as re-configured 772s which are better suited for this route. Merger has nothing to do with it...that I can see at least.

I can't believe somebody would actually try to a claim a merger with US would for some reason bring the route back. It won't.

However, in an internal outline of how AA plans to grow its route network between 2013 and 2017, returning to India was indeed included. This plan assumes no merger with US Airways.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 5): High chance it will come back as a result of a merger .

How?

Nah I don't see it coming back anytime soon. Especially with the not so significant growth in pax numbers in the Indian aviation arena with all those ridiculous airport taxes....

Its a shame that a garbage airline like Air India serves my city Chicago. I wonder if United could make it work, but I'm sure would take a way a lot of feed from Lufthansa and Star carriers that serve Chicago.

Leo/ORD

Quoting LFutia (Reply 10): Its a shame that a garbage airline like Air India serves my city Chicago. I wonder if United could make it work, but I'm sure would take a way a lot of feed from Lufthansa and Star carriers that serve Chicago

What's ironic is the "garbage" airline actually elbowed out AA from the DEL route. What does that say about AA ?

And do a photo search on the cabin interiors of the new 777's that are used by AI on this route before posting such an ignorant comment.

Quoting manny (Reply 11): What's ironic is the "garbage" airline actually elbowed out AA from the DEL route.

Majorly because of Govt bailouts and support despite losses on any of its routes.

Quoting manny (Reply 11): What's ironic is the "garbage" airline actually elbowed out AA from the DEL route. What does that say about AA ? And do a photo search on the cabin interiors of the new 777's that are used by AI on this route before posting such an ignorant comment.

no need to do a search, its Air India's cheap cheap fares that pushed AA out. Just because it has a nice cabin doesnt mean anything. Its still a loss making carrier. Flight goes out empty all the time. United has stronger ties to Chicago than AA does.

As an Indian, I dont see my comment as being ignorant. Just stating the truth.

Leo/ORD

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1): other old stations are covered there as well, plus ones AA has not served at all - eg - Amsterdam

Indeed never served, but I have had confirmed reservations, and issued tickets, on AA to AMS, routed via ORD, but AA never started the route, we ended up flying via BRU taking the Thalys into Centaal Station, at least it was all F or J.

Quoting manny (Reply 11): What's ironic is the "garbage" airline actually elbowed out AA from the DEL route. What does that say about AA ?

Yea, and AA fed ORD-DEL through its own network but still could not sustain it. Does AI get any feed on ORD-DEL or is it strickly o&d? If so thats more weired. I wish i ran a airline that would not be allowed

The flight actually originates in HYD so its HYD-DEL-ORD. And yes they do sell domestic connections along with the subject flight.

Quoting VIDP (Reply 16): The flight actually originates in HYD so its HYD-DEL-ORD. And yes they do sell domestic connections along with the subject flight.

Yes i know there are connections in DEL. But what about ORD?

US has stated before that DEL and Mumbai were a possibility once more AC were acquired . Well since US management will most likely be run the new AA and more AC will be available , I can see them restarting the route . It could be out of ORD, it could be out of DFW . Hell it could be out of PHL . Who knows ? You guys need to chill with all the US bashing . Every time someone mentions anything about US in reference to AA you guys get all defensive . Face it ! US is taking over AA but keeping the AA name . Doug Parker will likely be the new CEO of AA ! Get use to it ! Now go along boys and girls . And enjoy your little AA as it was for the remaining part of 2012 because once 2013 rolls in , The sign at AA hq in DFW is gonna read " Under New Management " .. Merry Christmas  

Quoting LFutia (Reply 13):

What truth would that be? From a pax perspective, AI's product on the route fares comparably to AA (frankly, whose wouldn't - AA is a bottom-of-the-barrel carrier by international standards).

Both airlines are loss-makers. In AI's defence,it is used as a govt plaything, has aircraft commandeered by the government on a whim, and loses premium seats to bureaucrats, politicians and their families for free. It doesn't even nickel-and-dime like AA. AA on the other hand ... bankrupt, outdated product, poor service. Oh, and its also a "loss-making" airline(I suppose that makes UA, AF etc "garbage" airlines too).

The problem with your argument (aside from the gratuitous insults) is that "nice cabins" and low fares tend to fare well, particularly against the likes of AA (at least until the 773 cabins become the norm, not to mention a wholesale change in the catering etc).

I hope AA does well and I hope it starts the route again. But for that to happen, it will have to match the nice cabin and low fares. Letting consumers decide can be a real problem for some airlines.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 13): United has stronger ties to Chicago than AA does.

The fact that UA has been headquartered in Chicago for many years doesn't mean that UA has stronger ties. AA has generally been the #2 carrier at ORD, as long as I can remember, which goes back to the mid 60s. While UA has the naming rights for the home arena of the Bulls and Blackhawks, in terms of corporate sponserships in Chicagoland, AA and UA are pretty even.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 18):

And you're right behind us defending US, so it goes both ways.

Forgive my youthful naïveté, but why would a combined US/AA restart a route that has, traditionally, been operated at a loss in the past? I know that you seem to think that Doug Parker is the best thing since sliced bread, but I don't even think he's foolish enough to restart a route that comes with high costs and very low yields. You've presented no substantial case for the restarting of the route except for the fact that it was mentioned by US management at some point.

[/rant]


On an aside, can anyone elaborate on how UA's EWR-DEL route does? I don't know anything about the market, and it would be useful to hear how the only US carrier does on their US-India flights.

[Edited 2012-12-25 10:15:05]

Quoting etops1 (Reply 18): Well since US management will most likely be run the new AA and more AC will be available , I can see them restarting the route . It could be out of ORD, it could be out of DFW . Hell it could be out of PHL . Who knows ?

So your claim is that Doug Parker doesnt know how to run an airline?

If he does (which I believe), he wont restart a route that is going to bleed money. Its not about filling the planes, ORD, DFW, JFK, and LAX could fill a daily 77W with India O&D. PHL and MIA could fill a plane 5x weekly with India O&D. None of the above would make any money.

[Edited 2012-12-25 10:00:41]

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 19): What truth would that be? From a pax perspective, AI's product on the route fares comparably to AA (frankly, whose wouldn't - AA is a bottom-of-the-barrel carrier by international standards). Both airlines are loss-makers. In AI's defence,it is used as a govt plaything, has aircraft commandeered by the government on a whim, and loses premium seats to bureaucrats, politicians and their families for free. It doesn't even nickel-and-dime like AA. AA on the other hand ... bankrupt, outdated product, poor service. Oh, and its also a "loss-making" airline(I suppose that makes UA, AF etc "garbage" airlines too). The problem with your argument (aside from the gratuitous insults) is that "nice cabins" and low fares tend to fare well, particularly against the likes of AA (at least until the 773 cabins become the norm, not to mention a wholesale change in the catering etc). I hope AA does well and I hope it starts the route again. But for that to happen, it will have to match the nice cabin and low fares. Letting consumers decide can be a real problem for some airlines.

I guess I had too many bad experiences with Air India, I just find a reason to trash them at any time.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 20): The fact that UA has been headquartered in Chicago for many years doesn't mean that UA has stronger ties. AA has generally been the #2 carrier at ORD, as long as I can remember, which goes back to the mid 60s. While UA has the naming rights for the home arena of the Bulls and Blackhawks, in terms of corporate sponserships in Chicagoland, AA and UA are pretty even.

My response was kind of half-assed. In terms of service to Chicago, United is the biggest one over AA. United has many more destinations than AA does from Chicago.

Leo/ORD

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 22): If he does (which I believe), he wont restart a route that is going to bleed money. Its not about filling the planes, ORD, DFW, JFK, and LAX could fill a daily 77W with India O&D. PHL and MIA could fill a plane 5x weekly with India O&D. None of the above would make any money.

  

Quoting LFutia (Reply 13): no need to do a search, its Air India's cheap cheap fares that pushed AA out. Just because it has a nice cabin doesnt mean anything. Its still a loss making carrier. Flight goes out empty all the time. United has stronger ties to Chicago than AA does.

Still does not explain why you called Air India a garbage airline.

Air India's fares were on part with AA's on this route. People who travel ie the passengers do not have an acute interest in the detailed balance sheet of the airline when they make bookings.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 18): US has stated before that DEL and Mumbai were a possibility once more AC were acquired . Well since US management will most likely be run the new AA and more AC will be available , I can see them restarting the route . It could be out of ORD, it could be out of DFW . Hell it could be out of PHL . Who knows ? You guys need to chill with all the US bashing . Every time someone mentions anything about US in reference to AA you guys get all defensive . Face it ! US is taking over AA but keeping the AA name . Doug Parker will likely be the new CEO of AA ! Get use to it ! Now go along boys and girls . And enjoy your little AA as it was for the remaining part of 2012 because once 2013 rolls in , The sign at AA hq in DFW is gonna read " Under New Management " .. Merry Christmas

You are living in a fantasyland of eight months ago. It's crystal clear that AMR's performance during bankruptcy has been outstanding. And while a US/AA merger remains an extremely likely outcome, it's becoming more and more likely AA will be running the show.

But disregarding the above fact, U.S.-India yields suck and Air India is so propped up by the government, it's difficult to compete with it.

The United States is a huge market to India - Miami-Bombay itself is large enough to support a flight - but yield sucks (from everywhere except maybe SEABLR) and distance is too long.

I do believe AA will be back to India in the 2015-17 time frame, but it's not an easy market to crack.

Quoting manny (Reply 25): Still does not explain why you called Air India a garbage airline. Air India's fares were on part with AA's on this route. People who travel ie the passengers do not have an acute interest in the detailed balance sheet of the airline when they make bookings.

Have you ever flown Air India? Everything about it from Mangement up just screams garbage. there are other posts in the forums about Air India that echo my thoughts as well.

Leo/ORD

Quoting thekennady (Reply 17):

AFAIK AI does not sell any through-connections on the ORD end via codeshare or other mechanism. Now if you go to expedia or orbitz, you can purchase a ticket from a 3rd city and connect to AI, but there would be no actual through-ticket i.e. OKC-ORD on AA and ORD-DEL on AI would be two separate tickets bought together.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 5):

I have trouble believing that - I'd bet AA is more than happy shunting their India-bound pax through LHR, AUH, and to a lesser extent AMM, especially since AA now codeshares with BA's LHR-India flights.

Quoting manny (Reply 11): What's ironic is the "garbage" airline actually elbowed out AA from the DEL route. What does that say about AA ? And do a photo search on the cabin interiors of the new 777's that are used by AI on this route before posting such an ignorant comment.

I'd suggest you read up a little bit about how AI does business. When you look at how AI operates (unlimited government/taxpayer bailouts to prop up an "airline" that's basically just a politicians' toy) versus a legitimate business like AA that, you know, is actually trying to sustain itself and make a profit, you'll see why AA is in an impossible situation. When you consider that it's no shocker that AA thought better of it but decided it just wasn't worth it chasing the junk fares, especially if the F/J cabin wasn't making up for it. Indians are notoriously cheap so that's no shocker either. The funny thing is Indians are now well aware of the poor service on AI. I'm looking at going to India in February and AI prices $200 less than competitors, but it's well worth it to spend the little extra, earn miles I can actually use, and know I'm supporting a legitimate business and not a stuffing GoI coffers. And while the pictures of AI's cabin might look nice compared to AA - I can vouch that AA's ORD-DEL offering was not bad at all - they clearly made an effort to appeal to their Indian customers (excellent Indian food for dinner/breakfast). Throw in 15K EQM for a roundtrip and it was a great deal, until AI started undercutting in full force.

[Edited 2012-12-25 10:57:53]

[Edited 2012-12-25 11:00:05]

Quoting LFutia (Reply 27): Have you ever flown Air India? Everything about it from Mangement up just screams garbage. there are other posts in the forums about Air India that echo my thoughts as well.

Deflect much ?

From a passengers point of view I would rather fly AI than AA.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 29): I'd suggest you read up a little bit about how AI does business. When you look at how AI operates (unlimited government/taxpayer bailouts to prop up an "airline" that's basically just a politicians' toy) versus a legitimate business like AA that, you know, is actually trying to sustain itself and make a profit, you'll see why AA is in an impossible situation. When you consider that it's no shocker that AA thought better of it but decided it just wasn't worth it chasing the junk fares, especially if the F/J cabin wasn't making up for it. Indians are notoriously cheap so that's no shocker either. The funny thing is Indians are now well aware of the poor service on AI. I'm looking at going to India in February and AI prices $200 less than competitors, but it's well worth it to spend the little extra, earn miles I can actually use, and know I'm supporting a legitimate business and not a stuffing GoI coffers. And while the pictures of AI's cabin might look nice compared to AA - I can vouch that AA's ORD-DEL offering was not bad at all - they clearly made an effort to appeal to their Indian customers (excellent Indian food for dinner/breakfast). Throw in 15K EQM for a roundtrip and it was a great deal, until AI started undercutting in full force.

You sure do know how to go off tangent. Not everyone flying is an aviation enthusiast with an airliners.net subscription. In general the flying masses have no idea about the balance sheet of the airline they are flying. They focus on things like product offering, price, convenient timings et al. So what you say is pointless,

I have flown both AA and AI (although twice on the EWR-BOM) nonstops. AA was outright pathetic and that too in J. It felt like i was doing them a favor by flying with them. And i am not even going to mention the outdated J product offering. AI on the other hand was miles better and will get my business in the future. The government employed aunties were much more focused on service that their private, legitimate, bankrupt airline counterparts.

Now i know its fashionable to criticize AI in these parts. And there is some deserved criticism too. But that does not mean all of the it is true. This is one such instance. As a paying customer I would hand them my business again.

AI defenders need to do a reality check. Big picture look, and it is indeed a crap airline. Comparing its interior cabin views to that of AA's tells you absolutely nothing about the things that matter, I.e. how well the airline is run and managed. I still cannot believe how many AI apologists exist on these forums after the Star Alliance debacle. Definition of embarassment to the namesake of Air India and the GOI and exposure on how corrupt and incapable the Indian Aviation ministry is.

However, one can choose to accept these facts as reality and choose with their wallets: that I have no issue with. While AA by no means is a winner airline, it is incorrect to claim that AI edged them out for being an all around superior airline. That is 100% false.

For the record, the UA flights from EWR to BOM and DEL are sustained thanks to the sheer size of the NYC-India market. That and pmCO smartly configured the aircraft with the right mix of Y/J pax from the get go, which was an advantage AA did not have with the 777s. From what I'd heard, most of the F cabin on AA Chicago-Delhi were filled with non revs and mileage burners, relatively little of those seats were actually paid.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 29): Indians are notoriously cheap so that's no shocker either.

I beg your pardon?

Indians are "notoriously cheap"? Given that most (if not all) airlines don't have a problem filling premium cabins (India-UK is one of the larger premium heavy markets out there and EK claims 30% of its traffic out of India is premium traffic), I take that to mean that Indian's won't pay top dollar for a product if they can get a similar product for less? If so, what's wrong with that? Indians are notorious for seeking value-for-money. Are they "cheap" for choosing to fly AY at $3500 when AA wants $4500? Or are they smarter for it?

The cheapness does serve Indians well - savings rates in India are much higher than they are in the ...err.. uncheap west, where household debt is a way of life. I don't know who's smarter, the one who pays less and focuses on what he can afford in the here and now, or the one who pays more on the assumption that he'll pay it off eventually.

Lets avoid the sweeping blanket statements, shall we.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 29): The funny thing is Indians are now well aware of the poor service on AI.

And always have been. I've flown AI a handful of times, mostly domestically. My only international experience with them was in the summer of 2010, when a J/Y combo cost me less than AC in Y (~1500) for LHR-YYZ. It was a very pleasant experience. Am I cheap for choosing a J/Y combo that cost less than AC in Y? Or smarter for it? Cheap has negative connotations that I simply can't ignore, so I must ask.

AI traditionally serves the most price-sensitive (read least affluent) segment in India. Its not exactly the airline of choice, despite its low prices.

I daresay AA's failure on this route has less to do with AA undercutting it in Y, and more to do with the significantly better one-stop options available on the European and Asian carriers serving the route. AI operates on many routes, and typically caters to a class of travellers who would be priced out of the market otherwise.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 29): I can vouch that AA's ORD-DEL offering was not bad at all

I don't doubt it, but I must ask -how did the baggage allowance compare? Indians may be "notoriously cheap", but they sure do love stocking up and taking stuff with them to India. Perhaps they just figure that they could use the savings on the ticket to take even more stuff home?

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 32): Comparing its interior cabin views to that of AA's tells you absolutely nothing about the things that matter, I.e. how well the airline is run and managed.

Ummm...if you are buying a ticket to fly from point A to point B, what matters? The price of the ticket, or the airline's balance sheet? If you're an MBA studying airlines or looking to invest in airlines, you may be right. But on the face of it, even the most basic economics course will teach you that most humans will choose a cheaper substitute when available. If you're flying solely on the basis of the balance sheet, then, given the state of the aviation industry in general, good luck flying an airline that meets your criteria of "things that matter". Many of them are running losses. AI is hardly the only one.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 32): I still cannot believe how many AI apologists exist on these forums after the Star Alliance debacle.

Not an apologist at all. I've flown them once internationally in my life (largely out of curiosity and the fact that the price was right - a curious side effect of being an aviation enthusiast). That said, anyone who's been to India knows the clientele that AI caters to. There are few airlines in the world that are as well-equipped to cater to this particular type of Indian clientele (lets call them not particularly well-travelled or worldly - I can think of a great many western airlines that wouldn't know what to do with them) and allows them to do so without breaking the bank. Its an enabler of sorts, albeit a bloody expensive one for Indian taxpayers.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 32): While AA by no means is a winner airline, it is incorrect to claim that AI edged them out for being an all around superior airline. That is 100% false.

Nobody said it is an all-round superior airline. However, in terms of pax in-flight experience, I suspect AI is at least as good as AA. Easily substitutable. Lower Price. Result?

That aside, the thing I find most amusing (in an absurd sort of way) is the belief that AI edged out AA on this route. Come off it. AA lost because of competition from the one-stops, which offer pretty good service at more competitive prices. AI generally serves a market that is so low-yielding that losing that segment to AI can only be a good thing for AA.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 32): AI defenders need to do a reality check. Big picture look, and it is indeed a crap airline. Comparing its interior cabin views to that of AA's tells you absolutely nothing about the things that matter, I.e. how well the airline is run and managed.

You need to get a reality check. In general passengers do not focus on who owns the airline or the state of the balance sheet. What they care about is the timings, price, product offering depending on an individual's priority. Any airline that meets that criteria is the one that is chosen. Period.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 10): I wonder if United could make it work, but I'm sure would take a way a lot of feed from Lufthansa and Star carriers that serve Chicago.

If they make it work, its going to be a 787.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 19): Oh, and its also a "loss-making" airline(I suppose that makes UA, AF etc "garbage" airlines too).

United prints cash these days. So does Delta.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 21): On an aside, can anyone elaborate on how UA's EWR-DEL route does? I don't know anything about the market, and it would be useful to hear how the only US carrier does on their US-India flights.

I can elaborate on what I've heard - route planning at UA likes India half the year, and hates it the other half, which is why they are enthusiastic about a fleet of 787s. The idea is to fly the 777 on India when they can, and fly the 787 when they can't.

NS

Quoting gigneil (Reply 35): United prints cash these days. So does Delta.

I know DL does. I didn't know UA was back in the black. That aside, many airlines are still losing money.

Quoting manny (Reply 31): You sure do know how to go off tangent. Not everyone flying is an aviation enthusiast with an airliners.net subscription. In general the flying masses have no idea about the balance sheet of the airline they are flying. They focus on things like product offering, price, convenient timings et al. So what you say is pointless,

Quoting manny (Reply 30): Deflect much ? From a passengers point of view I would rather fly AI than AA.

Not off tangent at all. I believe you were the one who originally made the claim that AI edged AA out of the market implying that they were able to do so by being the all around superior airline, which is incorrect. The point we're all trying to prove here is that AI pretty much won out a dirty war in this entire situation and give you some background detail, but at the end of the day, its obviously not all that important to you because you like the AI product, which is fine.

What I think is important to point out here is that you made a statement that implied something and you had a few posters provide a few clarifying points. It's unfair to state that those details are irrelevant or off-topic because indeed, they are.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33): I beg your pardon? Indians are "notoriously cheap"? Given that most (if not all) airlines don't have a problem filling premium cabins (India-UK is one of the larger premium heavy markets out there and EK claims 30% of its traffic out of India is premium traffic), I take that to mean that Indian's won't pay top dollar for a product if they can get a similar product for less? If so, what's wrong with that? Indians are notorious for seeking value-for-money. Are they "cheap" for choosing to fly AY at $3500 when AA wants $4500? Or are they smarter for it?

The statement he made has some truth to it, but it can be qualified (or pertain mostly) to VFR traffic heading to India. Even still, it also really does depend on the country of origin. Canada - India, for example, will have a much lower concentration of premium traffic/average fares than USA-India and Europe-India.

Case in point: Air Canada could not sustain a nonstop Toronto to Delhi flight, nor could they do this via Zurich a few years later. Conversely, the SWISS flight from Zurich to Delhi is one of the most profitable/highest-yielding routes in the entire LX longhaul network.

I'm also inclined to believe that EK can also command a decent premium on their Indian routes because EK is a popular option for wealthier Indians living and residing in India. My point being, it really needs to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis rather than be viewed as a characterization applied as a whole.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33): I daresay AA's failure on this route has less to do with AA undercutting it in Y, and more to do with the significantly better one-stop options available on the European and Asian carriers serving the route. AI operates on many routes, and typically caters to a class of travellers who would be priced out of the market otherwise.

No. The demise of the route had pretty much everything to do with AI's entrance. AA itself has alluded to this reason as being the dagger in the heart. ORD has been connected to India via many one-stop options in Europe and Asia long before AA/AI entered the nonstop market - those had little to no bearing on its performance. In fact, the nonstop, if anything, gave AA a competitive advantage over them.

Another data point is that AA existed on this route for a good 5 years before AI came in, and with the two competing side-by-side, AA quickly had to drop down from daily to six weekly to null within a single year pretty much.

I realize that the Indian market is a high volume and low yield market, and that it's difficult to make a profit on unless planes are configured the right way. With costs restructured as a result of Ch.11, and newly reconfigured 772s without F cabins, wouldn't AA be able to serve the Indian market again, this time profitably?

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33): I don't doubt it, but I must ask -how did the baggage allowance compare? Indians may be "notoriously cheap", but they sure do love stocking up and taking stuff with them to India. Perhaps they just figure that they could use the savings on the ticket to take even more stuff home?

Everything is available in India now. The concept of bringing frivolous items back has become obsolete, although it still nevertheless happens. My inclination is that those who do opt for this tend to fly on the airlines with more liberal luggage allowances such as EY. But yes, this was/is an advantage of AI.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33): Ummm...if you are buying a ticket to fly from point A to point B, what matters? The price of the ticket, or the airline's balance sheet? If you're an MBA studying airlines or looking to invest in airlines, you may be right. But on the face of it, even the most basic economics course will teach you that most humans will choose a cheaper substitute when available. If you're flying solely on the basis of the balance sheet, then, given the state of the aviation industry in general, good luck flying an airline that meets your criteria of "things that matter". Many of them are running losses. AI is hardly the only one.

I was saying this in response to a poster who used the example of comparing cabin interiors between AI and AA in J as a method to explain why AA was "edged out" of ORDDEL.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33): That said, anyone who's been to India knows the clientele that AI caters to. There are few airlines in the world that are as well-equipped to cater to this particular type of Indian clientele (lets call them not particularly well-travelled or worldly - I can think of a great many western airlines that wouldn't know what to do with them) and allows them to do so without breaking the bank. Its an enabler of sorts, albeit a bloody expensive one for Indian taxpayers.

This statement made me LOL.

What type of "Indian clientele" does AI cater to? The same type that view the airline as a complete dog? Please don't put AI on par with the likes of Singapore Airlines or Cathay Pacific when it comes to public perception. AI has not been, and unlikely will ever be again, viewed as one of the world's premier network airlines. It can't even meet basic requirements join an alliance, a feat Aerolineas Argentinas and EgyptAir have been able to accomplish recently. Pathetic.

As far as the "great many western airlines" that have served India, explain the long-time presence of Delta, Northwest-KLM, BA, Lufthansa, CO-UA, etc. that have been around forever?

Quoting manny (Reply 34): You need a reality check. In general passengers do not focus on who owns the airline or the state of the balance sheet. What they care about is the timings, price, product offering depending on an individual's priority. Any airline that meets that criteria is the one that is chosen. Period.

That may be true, but it doesn't take away from the fact that despite having pretty much every advantage in the world it could ask for, AI still continues to demonstrate failure at its finest with consistent ease. You can fly them until they'll inevitably disappoint and not meet your criteria. Meanwhile, I'll take the last laugh.

Quoting manny (Reply 30): Deflect much ? From a passengers point of view I would rather fly AI than AA.

Does it matter much? If I say yes to being Indian, I get asked 5000 questions. I would rather say I'm from Suriname and use my Dutch accent than answer 5000 questions and for you to divulge into my life.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33): Indians are "notoriously cheap"? Given that most (if not all) airlines don't have a problem filling premium cabins (India-UK is one of the larger premium heavy markets out there and EK claims 30% of its traffic out of India is premium traffic), I take that to mean that Indian's won't pay top dollar for a product if they can get a similar product for less? If so, what's wrong with that? Indians are notorious for seeking value-for-money. Are they "cheap" for choosing to fly AY at $3500 when AA wants $4500? Or are they smarter for it?

Indians are nortoriously cheap. Come to the US and when an Indian sees another Indian they'll ask you for something and then ask for a discount. Trust me I've been there.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33): I don't doubt it, but I must ask -how did the baggage allowance compare? Indians may be "notoriously cheap", but they sure do love stocking up and taking stuff with them to India. Perhaps they just figure that they could use the savings on the ticket to take even more stuff home?

It may be available but since Air India has such a high baggage allowance, You will still see Indians taking cookery home with them!

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33): Ummm...if you are buying a ticket to fly from point A to point B, what matters? The price of the ticket, or the airline's balance sheet? If you're an MBA studying airlines or looking to invest in airlines, you may be right. But on the face of it, even the most basic economics course will teach you that most humans will choose a cheaper substitute when available. If you're flying solely on the basis of the balance sheet, then, given the state of the aviation industry in general, good luck flying an airline that meets your criteria of "things that matter". Many of them are running losses. AI is hardly the only one.

If I was buying a ticket, I'd look at the airline first and decide. Personally I'd choose EU carriers first, then American carriers and then Air India. But I fly KLM when possible.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33): Not an apologist at all. I've flown them once internationally in my life

Well aren't you a big man! Try dealing with the passengers on a daily basis.

Leo/ORD

Everything else aside, its nice to see ORD have a Nonstop flight the India. Only 1 other metro and 2 other airports in north America can say that. Personally id love to see AA back on ORD-DEL. But with more gulf carriers comming to ORD and the European carriers and AI all pulling traffic to India, it surely isnt a top priority for AA right now.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 37): The statement he made has some truth to it, but it can be qualified (or pertain mostly) to VFR traffic heading to India. Even still, it also really does depend on the country of origin. Canada - India, for example, will have a much lower concentration of premium traffic/average fares than USA-India and Europe-India. Case in point: Air Canada could not sustain a nonstop Toronto to Delhi flight, nor could they do this via Zurich a few years later. Conversely, the SWISS flight from Zurich to Delhi is one of the most profitable/highest-yielding routes in the entire LX longhaul network.

I'm quite familiar with the Indian diaspora in Canada, what with being one of them. Canada's Indian population is simply not as affluent as its American counterparts, largely due to Canada's immigration policies - the Americans focused on a different caliber of folk and Canada has only come around to changing its criteria now. It has other curious side effects - the perception of India in Canada is a lot more negative than that in the US, which says a lot about the relative quality of the diaspora.

I've also had the misfortune of flying that direct flight in summer 2004. Suffice it to say, the AC ULH product (no IFE, awful catering) at the time was enough to put me off ultra long haul flying for good. I know IFE has gotten better, but with catering at AC going the way it has, the last thing I want is a 15 hour flight with kiddie meals.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 37): Another data point is that AA existed on this route for a good 5 years before AI came in, and with the two competing side-by-side, AA quickly had to drop down from daily to six weekly to null within a single year pretty much.

AI has been serving ORD for a long time, albeit one-stop. Given its poor reputation, I m surprised people made the switch. How much were they undercutting AA by? That said, if they're offering a product comparable to AA (read easily substitutable), then either AI has something going for it, or AA doesnt.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 39): Everything is available in India now. The concept of bringing frivolous items back has become obsolete, although it still nevertheless happens. My inclination is that those who do opt for this tend to fly on the airlines with more liberal luggage allowances such as EY. But yes, this was/is an advantage of AI.

Oh I know that, but old habits die hard. I've just completed a Delhi run that saw me leave with two checked in bags and return with one. Some of the stuff I was carrying may not be available in Delhi (I didn't think of checking), but most of it is, albeit with a little effort. Cheese and chocolates... you know the drill. Kind of painful, since Cheese is probably more expensive in Canada than it is in India, what with Canada's penchant for controlling supply of milk (like airline seats). Free market and all that. Granted, I was on VS, which also has liberal baggage policies for India (2 pieces in Y, 3 pieces in Y+).

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 39): I was saying this in response to a poster who used the example of comparing cabin interiors between AI and AA in J as a method to explain why AA was "edged out" of ORDDEL.

I fail to see what is wrong with that reasoning. If AI offers a comparable or superior product at a similar price, its bound to edge out the competition eventually, no?

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 39): What type of "Indian clientele" does AI cater to? The same type that view the airline as a complete dog? Please don't put AI on par with the likes of Singapore Airlines or Cathay Pacific when it comes to public perception. AI has not been, and unlikely will ever be again, viewed as one of the world's premier network airlines. It can't even meet basic requirements join an alliance, a feat Aerolineas Argentinas and EgyptAir have been able to accomplish recently. Pathetic.

The ...errr...type of passengers who dominate the ME routes. Not exactly premium - in fact, quite the opposite. I don't want to say too much, lest I come across as the South Delhi folk I've been happily mocking for the past couple of weeks. You know the type - first time flyers, not particularly fluent in English (or at all), intimidated by westerners, not particularly affluent, not well-versed in the intricacies of international travel etc. Not sure how you decided I put AI on par with SQ and CX when, really, I was putting them on par with Indian Railways. My favorite experience was a middle aged first time flyer who, after the rattle of take-off, mistook the smooth ride at altitude as an indication that the plane had stopped, and asked the F/A why the plane had stopped and how long it would be delayed. AI is, In my opinion, more capable of comprehending and addressing a situation like that than some airlines. Fluency in language, fluency in cultural practices and expectations etc. Personally, I m an avowed member of the 9W fan club, though their decision to go 3-4-3 on the 777 has alienated me to a great degree.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 39): As far as the "great many western airlines" that have served India, explain the long-time presence of Delta, Northwest-KLM, BA, Lufthansa, CO-UA, etc. that have been around forever?

Don't be disingenuous. Different segments of the middle class (in the way that only India can succeed in stratifying the middle class) explain that statement. The EU airlines have always been more popular with the so-called upper middle class and above, while the lower middle class and below have always favored AI (possibly because its the only airline they can afford). You know just as well as I do the utter contempt with which AI is viewed in the marginally moneyed (and above) sections of society. AI caters to the folk who can't afford BA, LH etc.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 40): Indians are nortoriously cheap. Come to the US and when an Indian sees another Indian they'll ask you for something and then ask for a discount. Trust me I've been there.

Ok. And? In Pacific Mall in Toronto, the Chinese haggle with the...err...Chinese. Indians and white folk join in too. Ask Russell Peters. Notoriously cheap? That explains the influx of luxury brands in India over the past few years. Personally, I will defend that notorious cheapness if only because it also means that household debt in India is much lower than it is in ...err...uncheap countries, where people are living beyond their means most of the time.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 40): If I was buying a ticket, I'd look at the airline first and decide. Personally I'd choose EU carriers first, then American carriers and then Air India. But I fly KLM when possible.

Of course you would. But there is a whole breed of VFR traffic out there that travels once a year and sees flying as getting from point A to point B. Personally, I am not convinced that this price-sensitive VFR traffic has enough clout to push AA off any route, but others suggest otherwise, so who knows?

Mr. Robert Crandall has been spotted near pilot ops frequently lately here in Miami. And he has been talking to people. What his future plans are? No one is certain, but wouldnt it be funny if HE was the one who actually ends up running this show again.

Interesting topic, but having casual dicussions with folks down south, it's not even on the radar.

With all the bankruptcy things going on at AA returning to India is far down their list of concerns. When they went BK Dehli was the first long haul route they killed.

AA failed on ORD-DEL for numerous reasons:

1. The 777s with a premium heavy configuration was a big factor.
2. The crew costs did not help AA.
3. The fuel costs during the entire time AA operated this flight was highly volatile.
4. For an airline in BK it made perfect sense to offload some flights to save money and chopping DEL was a no brainer

That being said, AA had gained traction in the USA-IND market. The flight was almost always packed. The market will be a perfect fit for 787 and I really hope AA brings DEL back and hopefully BOM or BLR at some point. People like me who prefer to not make a stopover in Europe or ME while travelling to India would much appreciate that.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 40): Indians are nortoriously cheap.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 29): Indians are notoriously cheap so that's no shocker either.

Total Rubbish. Stores like Best Buy, A&F/Gap and the city of Niagara Falls among many others should write a big 'Thank You' letter to the Indians for keeping their economies going! You do see that the average population of Indians in USA is probably in the 20s with the explosion of Indians in the technology workforce. They carry more fancy gadgets and travel way more than Americans. It is not like Indians walk in to an airline sales office and start haggling over the airfares. If a 'deal' is available on a booking site or with a travel agent, they will take it. If a 'deal' is not available they will crib about it but purchase it anyway. What is wrong with that? Isn't that the way the rest of the world does business too? If there is a 'deal', why would you pay more? Americans love Groupon and Black Friday shopping. Does that make them 'notoriously cheaper' too?

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 26): You are living in a fantasyland of eight months ago. It's crystal clear that AMR's performance during bankruptcy has been outstanding. And while a US/AA merger remains an extremely likely outcome, it's becoming more and more likely AA will be running the show. But disregarding the above fact, U.S.-India yields suck and Air India is so propped up by the government, it's difficult to compete with it. The United States is a huge market to India - Miami-Bombay itself is large enough to support a flight - but yield sucks (from everywhere except maybe SEABLR) and distance is too long. I do believe AA will be back to India in the 2015-17 time frame, but it's not an easy market to crack.

BLR-SFO is huge and high yield, BLR-Texas is decent yield, as are BLR-NYC, -- pretty much BLR is the strongest yielding India-US market

MIA-BOM could work if optimized for connections to Latin America (this is more of a 3-5 yrs down the road kind of view)

UA will likely launch EWR-BLR/MAA (maybe even HYD) with the 787. Especially if 9W joins * they could also beef up BOM.

In terms of ORD, DEL is the bigger VFR market, BOM is the bigger biz market and if/when 9W joins *, ORD-BOM would be a better choice for UA, though it might require the 789.

SFO-BLR with the 789 would literally print money.

DL is having a tough time -- theyve basically retreated to the PMNW via AMS tool - it'll be tough for them before they get 787s to expand much.

In terms of AA, it is likely that they will return; given the volume on the route, it might be better to go with a high density 772.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 32): AI defenders need to do a reality check. Big picture look, and it is indeed a crap airline. Comparing its interior cabin views to that of AA's tells you absolutely nothing about the things that matter, I.e. how well the airline is run and managed. I still cannot believe how many AI apologists exist on these forums after the Star Alliance debacle. Definition of embarassment to the namesake of Air India and the GOI and exposure on how corrupt and incapable the Indian Aviation ministry is. However, one can choose to accept these facts as reality and choose with their wallets: that I have no issue with. While AA by no means is a winner airline, it is incorrect to claim that AI edged them out for being an all around superior airline. That is 100% false. For the record, the UA flights from EWR to BOM and DEL are sustained thanks to the sheer size of the NYC-India market. That and pmCO smartly configured the aircraft with the right mix of Y/J pax from the get go, which was an advantage AA did not have with the 777s. From what I'd heard, most of the F cabin on AA Chicago-Delhi were filled with non revs and mileage burners, relatively little of those seats were actually paid.

  

Quoting gigneil (Reply 35): If they make it work, its going to be a 787.

  

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 42): I'm quite familiar with the Indian diaspora in Canada, what with being one of them. Canada's Indian population is simply not as affluent as its American counterparts, largely due to Canada's immigration policies - the Americans focused on a different caliber of folk and Canada has only come around to changing its criteria now. It has other curious side effects - the perception of India in Canada is a lot more negative than that in the US, which says a lot about the relative quality of the diaspora.

Well, I think that just sheds some light on a greater challenge that Canada will face as a whole in the next 5-10 years with regards to the roles that its immigrant communities (and not just the Indian one) play in the country and whether or not there is greater solidarity into how each individual is perceived and treated by the community as a whole.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 42): AI has been serving ORD for a long time, albeit one-stop. Given its poor reputation, I m surprised people made the switch. How much were they undercutting AA by? That said, if they're offering a product comparable to AA (read easily substitutable), then either AI has something going for it, or AA doesnt.

AI was offering dirt cheap J and F fares on this route. People would purchase separate reservations between XXX and ORD and fly r/t on AI from ORD to DEL (or wherever beyond).

AI also has a much lower operating cost than AA, yet it is still hemorrhaging cash on their n/s flights to the US.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 42): I fail to see what is wrong with that reasoning. If AI offers a comparable or superior product at a similar price, its bound to edge out the competition eventually, no?

Again, I don't understand what is so difficult to understand here: it is not the product that wins. It is the financial viability of the airline that dictates whether or not the route will last.

You have a fully state-owned airline whose government will bail them out of anything. You have a privately-owned carrier who is restructuring under bankruptcy protection and is losing millions of dollars annually on the same route, but faces a different type of pressure else liquidate. Where does product matter in any of this?

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 42): I don't want to say too much, lest I come across as the South Delhi folk I've been happily mocking for the past couple of weeks. You know the type - first time flyers, not particularly fluent in English (or at all), intimidated by westerners, not particularly affluent, not well-versed in the intricacies of international travel etc.

That is a stereotype. My family has lived in South Delhi since the 1940's and have been traveling globally since the 1950's. They also speak perfect English. I suggest avoiding mis-characterizations on these forums lest you're willing to be called out/corrected publicly about this.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 42): Don't be disingenuous. Different segments of the middle class (in the way that only India can succeed in stratifying the middle class) explain that statement. The EU airlines have always been more popular with the so-called upper middle class and above, while the lower middle class and below have always favored AI (possibly because its the only airline they can afford). You know just as well as I do the utter contempt with which AI is viewed in the marginally moneyed (and above) sections of society. AI caters to the folk who can't afford BA, LH etc.

This is a stretch, and again a stereotype. The Indian aviation market has been turned on its head so many times over the past 15 years, you can't possibly make the claim that passenger preferences have been entrenched in a certain way over the years simply due to social strata.

Up until recently, the EU airlines were pretty much the only means of travel between North America and India. You used to also have NW, DL and UA operating 5th freedom services between AMS/LHR/FRA/CDG and DEL/BOM. Then, things changed quite a bit: nonstop services began, first on AC, then CO, then AA, then DL and meanwhile, the gulf carriers by means of EK, EY and QR expanded into the Americas and flooded the Indian markets with dirt cheap fares. Then, AI and 9W began nonstop or direct flights to the US, and IT also had plans (which never materialized).

Since then, AC, DL, AA and 9W have exited the nonstop/direct markets. AI has suspended/modified a few, the European carriers (namely LH) has withdrawn from several Indian cities, and the Middle Eastern airlines continue to add capacity.

In my opinion, those are too many changes to reflect which airlines are winning based purely on product and passenger mixes and instead, the dynamics reflect market pressures and the competitive environment as a whole.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 33): Lets avoid the sweeping blanket statements, shall we.

Dude get off your high horse and don't be so sensitive. I thought it was well established that yields on US-India routes are usually pretty poor.

Quoting LFutia (Reply 40): Indians are nortoriously cheap. Come to the US and when an Indian sees another Indian they'll ask you for something and then ask for a discount. Trust me I've been there.

Maybe "frugal" would be a better word for us to use. Elpistolero is getting quite offended. Like has been said on here many times - despite the large, relatively wealthy Indian diaspora abroad, yields for western airlines to India still continue to be a challenge. That's not to say say Indians don't like spending their money - I'm sure the Honda and Toyota dealers worldwide will attest to that - but as an Indian, yes we are cheap. As a case in point I'm arguing with my mother and sister about why it's worth spending $100 more to fly AA/DL and earn miles we can actually use (well maybe not skypesos) rather than plump for AI. Throwing $1100 in a bonfire would be of better use.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 42): Oh I know that, but old habits die hard. I've just completed a Delhi run that saw me leave with two checked in bags and return with one. Some of the stuff I was carrying may not be available in Delhi (I didn't think of checking), but most of it is, albeit with a little effort. Cheese and chocolates... you know the drill. Kind of painful, since Cheese is probably more expensive in Canada than it is in India, what with Canada's penchant for controlling supply of milk (like airline seats). Free market and all that. Granted, I was on VS, which also has liberal baggage policies for India (2 pieces in Y, 3 pieces in Y+).

For what it's worth (irrelevant now), AA charged $50 for a second bag. Today DL charges $75 and UA $100.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 42): Of course you would. But there is a whole breed of VFR traffic out there that travels once a year and sees flying as getting from point A to point B. Personally, I am not convinced that this price-sensitive VFR traffic has enough clout to push AA off any route, but others suggest otherwise, so who knows?

Well maybe you feel differently now that we're farther into this thread, because that is exactly myself and others like IrishAyes are saying. Again I refer to my dear mother, who is more than happy to burn her money on AI because they are cheaper (no other reason), than to think it through the way FFers do. Funny thing is my mom has accrued some AA miles from business trips so I explained that if we take AA to India she'd have enough for a free domestic ticket, yet that's still not enough! And you have a problem when I say Indians are cheap. This is exactly what I mean.