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manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:08 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 37):
Not off tangent at all. I believe you were the one who originally made the claim that AI edged AA out of the market implying that they were able to do so by being the all around superior airline, which is incorrect. The point we're all trying to prove here is that AI pretty much won out a dirty war in this entire situation and give you some background detail, but at the end of the day, its obviously not all that important to you because you like the AI product, which is fine.

What I think is important to point out here is that you made a statement that implied something and you had a few posters provide a few clarifying points. It's unfair to state that those details are irrelevant or off-topic because indeed, they are.

Yes it is off tangent. Way off tangent!

All I see is a lot of apologists. Face it. AI edged AA out of the market. Some posters who spend their lives criticizing AI and make it into an art form may not be able to stomach that. But its the reality. From a passengers viewpoint they do not care what the balance sheet looks like and where the capital comes from. If they cared for such things then airlines like Emirates would not have a single paying passenger. What they care for is the product and the convenience and the cost not where the airline's financing comes from.

Heck if UA/CO were operating an ORD-DEL flight they would have edged AA out of the market. That's how awful the AA long haul product is right now. And I am not even talking about the arrogance of the inflight staff. The legitimate, private business which you guys are touting is bankrupt and cannot even compete even with airlines in its own markets.
 
manny
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Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:10 pm

Quoting LFutia (Reply 40):
Does it matter much? If I say yes to being Indian, I get asked 5000 questions. I would rather say I'm from Suriname and use my Dutch accent than answer 5000 questions and for you to divulge into my life.

Wow. Just WOW!
 
jfk777
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RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:15 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 50):
Heck if UA/CO were operating an ORD-DEL flight they would have edged AA out of the market. That's how awful the AA long haul product is right now.

AA & UA operate almost mirror international routes out of ORD. NRT, PVG, PEK, LHR, and others are flown by both. One route AA surprisingly doesn't fly from ORD but UA does is a city AA owns in USA traffic, that city is Sao Paulo. UA operates the only nonstop ORD to GRU flights daily.
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1771
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 34):
You need to get a reality check. In general passengers do not focus on who owns the airline or the state of the balance sheet. What they care about is the timings, price, product offering depending on an individual's priority. Any airline that meets that criteria is the one that is chosen. Period.

Right back atcha. Which is why despite AA's DEL flights being packed to the gills (clearly some people were choosing to fly them over AI - not to mention you could seamlessly connect anywhere in the USA ex-ORD), they couldn't make it financially viable. Sounds like the timings, price, and product offering were quite satisfactory, at least to the pax filling those flights every night. As stated above by LFutia, AA suffered from a premium heavy cabin and sky-high fuel prices, and AI's entrance was the beginning of the end. But we won't get into how the Indian taxpayers are subsidizing their entire operation because apparently that's what's pointless here.

Quoting JCWR56 (Reply 44):
Interesting topic, but having casual dicussions with folks down south, it's not even on the radar.

Not at all surprised by this. Especially with QR joining oneworld it would be even more pointless for AA to chase junk yields with their own metal. Inevitably AA will place their code on QR's ORD-DOH service similar to what they've done with EY. Combined with their codeshares ex-LHR on BA, that gives them more than sufficient penetration into India. Perhaps AA could even place their code on QR's DOH-India flights? Although if QR is in oneworld, their flights would hopefully earn AA EQM anyway.

Now all oneworld needs is an actual non-bankrupt partner in India. Why is 9W is so obsessed with *A? They'd be a great fit in ow IMHO.
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1771
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 50):
Yes it is off tangent. Way off tangent!

All I see is a lot of apologists. Face it. AI edged AA out of the market. Some posters who spend their lives criticizing AI and make it into an art form may not be able to stomach that. But its the reality. From a passengers viewpoint they do not care what the balance sheet looks like and where the capital comes from. If they cared for such things then airlines like Emirates would not have a single paying passenger. What they care for is the product and the convenience and the cost not where the airline's financing comes from.

Heck if UA/CO were operating an ORD-DEL flight they would have edged AA out of the market. That's how awful the AA long haul product is right now. And I am not even talking about the arrogance of the inflight staff. The legitimate, private business which you guys are touting is bankrupt and cannot even compete even with airlines in its own markets.

Hahahaha, this is what we need to say "WOW" to. Other than a certain other poster active in the Indian Av thread I don't remember seeing quite the lovefest with AI as this. Incredible! Ironically, you're spot on about EK - why do you think governments are finally taking a stand? Just look at Canada restricting their activity in EK and AC aren't on a level playing field and are doing what they can about it. You're right that the average passenger doesn't care, but you're absolutely 110% wrong when you credit AI for edging out AA from DEL, as if AI did it on their own merits and without billions of rupees of Indian taxpayer bailouts to help them along the way. Funny how whenever you want to toot AI's horn that okay, but when the rest of us want to point out the reality of the situation (i.e. how AI is able to sustain itself in the first place), you want no part of it.

UA/CO hasn't even attempted n/s to India out of ORD. Why? #1 they have a goldmine at EWR - if you've been to NJ you'd know that those flights would be successful no matter who was flying them, what a perfect place to fly to India from. And #2 LH offers more than ample service to India from MUC and FRA, so what would be the point? You have to give credit to AA for going out on a limb and even attempting DEL, as usually they're much more conservative.

Again, judging by the loads on AA's ORD-DEL, that route should've definitely succeeded. But as has been mentioned in so many other posts, circumstances just worked against AA in this one.

[Edited 2012-12-26 11:25:08]

[Edited 2012-12-26 11:26:37]

Sorry for the repeated edits, this post just isn't showing up right. Was referring to Canada restricting EK in YYZ above.


[Edited 2012-12-26 11:27:34]
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2245
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RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 48):
This is a stretch, and again a stereotype. The Indian aviation market has been turned on its head so many times over the past 15 years, you can't possibly make the claim that passenger preferences have been entrenched in a certain way over the years simply due to social strata.

Yes. And no. I lived in Delhi for the first half of my life and flew abroad quite a bit. While AI was always the cheapest option to LHR, my family never flew them. It was all BA, all the time. Even ended up on a TG flight back when TG was flying 744s on BKK-DEL-LHR (TG 915/916 I think). AI was simply not an option. That stratification has been around for a while. Lets call AI's clientele the 'labour class'. Think ME flights stereotype.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 48):
That is a stereotype. My family has lived in South Delhi since the 1940's and have been traveling globally since the 1950's. They also speak perfect English. I suggest avoiding mis-characterizations on these forums lest you're willing to be called out/corrected publicly about this.

That was just poor editing on my part. South Delhi folk are generally well-travelled (I am one of them, again, which is why I don't shy away from mocking them - theres a South Delhi stereotype thats actually quite accurate, but it has nothing to do with travel, though it does have a lot to do with how they relate to fellow citizens). The sentence after that doesn't refer to South Delhi - it refers to AI's clientele. That said, ask a person from South Delhi if they ever fly AI. I'm willing to bet that even if they do, they'll deny it.  
Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 49):
As a case in point I'm arguing with my mother and sister about why it's worth spending $100 more to fly AA/DL and earn miles we can actually use (well maybe not skypesos) rather than plump for AI. Throwing $1100 in a bonfire would be of better use.

Been there. Done that.  
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 48):
Up until recently, the EU airlines were pretty much the only means of travel between North America and India.

AI was also an option throughout, via CDG, LHR and FRA. AI has been serving North America for as long as the EU airlines have.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:31 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 50):
Yes it is off tangent. Way off tangent!

Fine. Suit yourself and believe what you want to believe. No need to throw a tantrum.

Quoting manny (Reply 50):
Heck if UA/CO were operating an ORD-DEL flight they would have edged AA out of the market. That's how awful the AA long haul product is right now. And I am not even talking about the arrogance of the inflight staff. The legitimate, private business which you guys are touting is bankrupt and cannot even compete even with airlines in its own markets.

Yet, UA never went in to fly ORD-DEL. They even announced it pre-9.11 and never went through with it. Way to substantiate a claim with a hypothetical example. That's really convincing.

To your very own point, read this post below:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 52):
AA & UA operate almost mirror international routes out of ORD. NRT, PVG, PEK, LHR, and others are flown by both. One route AA surprisingly doesn't fly from ORD but UA does is a city AA owns in USA traffic, that city is Sao Paulo. UA operates the only nonstop ORD to GRU flights daily.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Quoting manny (Reply 50):
All I see is a lot of apologists. Face it. AI edged AA out of the market.

For the final time, nobody is denying that. All we're trying to reconcile here is that AI's victory shouldn't be viewed as a credit to them being the superior carrier, nor AA being the inferior carrier. It was a dirty war won by a dishonorable victor.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 7048
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RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting SATexan (Reply 46):
The market will be a perfect fit for 787 and I really hope AA brings DEL back

Maybe it could also be a good fit for a 2-class 77E with 9-abreast in Y and with a smaller J-class, which is the way AA is going to reconfigure its 77Es?

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 48):
Again, I don't understand what is so difficult to understand here: it is not the product that wins. It is the financial viability of the airline that dictates whether or not the route will last.

You have a fully state-owned airline whose government will bail them out of anything. You have a privately-owned carrier who is restructuring under bankruptcy protection and is losing millions of dollars annually on the same route, but faces a different type of pressure else liquidate. Where does product matter in any of this?

I think we got a bit lost in the argument. Seems to me IrishAyes is talking about whether a route is maintained or kept in the face of costs, management profile, economics, subsidies, etc. and, on the other hand, ElPistolero is only talking about consumers' choice all other things being equal.
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1771
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RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:21 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 57):
Maybe it could also be a good fit for a 2-class 77E with 9-abreast in Y and with a smaller J-class, which is the way AA is going to reconfigure its 77Es?

I thought 77Es are also being "upgraded " to 10Y? Could be wrong though...
 
ElPistolero
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RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:01 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 54):
Just look at Canada restricting their activity in EK and AC aren't on a level playing field and are doing what they can about it.

Restricting EK had more to do with AC doing LH's bidding than with level playing fields. It spiralled out of control badly for political and ideological reasons, and only one country came out with less than it went in. FWIW, Canada doesn't restrict only EK/ME3 - it also restricts SQ, TK, ET - on the TATL routes in particular, you can pretty much guarantee that no non-European airline will get more than 3 weekly frequency for the first year. The reason for that is not level playing fields - it simply boils down to 'whats in it for AC'. If AC isn't interested in a market, airlines from there are told to jump through hoops (ET gets 2 weekly and has to compete with KL and LH who have daily flights across Canada on Can-ADD). AC isn't interested in any markets east of Europe, except perhaps India when the 787 comes in. Canada won't block AI because AC has identified India as a potential market (the Govt also sees potential for trade with India). If you look at airfares out of Canada, you'll see what a mess it is.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 54):
Funny how whenever you want to toot AI's horn that okay, but when the rest of us want to point out the reality of the situation (i.e. how AI is able to sustain itself in the first place), you want no part of it.

There's no love for AI, but lets face the reality that this ....exchange...was started by someone calling AI a 'garbage' airline. Is it a badly run airline? Does the sun rise in the east? But that aside, the in-flight product itself is not 'garbage'. The way the company is, may be, but then one should be specific. There are plenty of good people working hard at AI on the aircraft to maintain a pretty reasonable offering. Words like 'garbage' may apply to what corporate management has done, but to apply it to the rank-and-file does a great disservice to people at AI who are doing good work. Theres no question about what a badly run airline it is, but I think they've maintained a pretty good in-flight experience inspite of the bizzare events, chronic mismanagement and battered reputation, and the impact it could have on employee morale.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:21 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 54):

Also AA's codeshares on Cathay and Dragonair gives them an Indian presence
 
manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 53):
Right back atcha. Which is why despite AA's DEL flights being packed to the gills (clearly some people were choosing to fly them over AI - not to mention you could seamlessly connect anywhere in the USA ex-ORD), they couldn't make it financially viable. Sounds like the timings, price, and product offering were quite satisfactory, at least to the pax filling those flights every night. As stated above by LFutia, AA suffered from a premium heavy cabin and sky-high fuel prices, and AI's entrance was the beginning of the end. But we won't get into how the Indian taxpayers are subsidizing their entire operation because apparently that's what's pointless here.

How can a flight be packed to the gills and then the same flight suffer from premium heavy cabin ?
 
manny
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Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 52):
AA & UA operate almost mirror international routes out of ORD. NRT, PVG, PEK, LHR, and others are flown by both. One route AA surprisingly doesn't fly from ORD but UA does is a city AA owns in USA traffic, that city is Sao Paulo. UA operates the only nonstop ORD to GRU flights daily.

Thats a very general statement. My statement was based on my personal experiences. I would choose the UA premium product any day any time over the AA 'if you can call it premium' product.
 
manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:59 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 56):
Fine. Suit yourself and believe what you want to believe. No need to throw a tantrum.

Its not a tantrum its a true observation. If you want to see what a tantrum looks like check out the statement below:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 56):
It was a dirty war won by a dishonorable victor.

Now you see what a tantrum looks like.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 56):
For the final time, nobody is denying that. All we're trying to reconcile here is that AI's victory shouldn't be viewed as a credit to them being the superior carrier, nor AA being the inferior carrier.
AA was indeed the inferior carrier on this route. From a passengers viewpoint i care for the product offering not the balance sheet.

[Edited 2012-12-26 14:17:51]
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6224
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RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 61):
How can a flight be packed to the gills and then the same flight suffer from premium heavy cabin ?

Average paid fare.

AI is a plaything for the Indian government. They dont have to make a profit and they know it. They charge bottom feeder prices that no other (non-proped up) carrier can profitably match. Yet, 40% of AI's total international losses still come from NYC, YYZ, and ORD. If AI was about trying to make the carrier profitable, it would leave North America completely or raise fares and hope for the best.

Thats not to say AI doesnt have better in flight service than AA, it does. However, its still the Indian govermnents chance to play airline.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
AA94
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:42 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 50):
All I see is a lot of apologists. Face it. AI edged AA out of the market. Some posters who spend their lives criticizing AI and make it into an art form may not be able to stomach that. But its the reality. From a passengers viewpoint they do not care what the balance sheet looks like and where the capital comes from. If they cared for such things then airlines like Emirates would not have a single paying passenger. What they care for is the product and the convenience and the cost not where the airline's financing comes from.

You can't possibly be serious. I think that all of us realize the ridiculousness of your entire reply, so I will refrain from identifying all that is wrong with it. Perhaps you're confused. As I have addressed in following responses, AI is playing a game that AA can't win.

Quoting manny (Reply 63):
AA was indeed the inferior carrier on this route. From a passengers viewpoint i care for the product offering not the balance sheet.

You're totally missing the point, as just about everyone on this thread has stated. The assertion is not that the passengers care about the balance sheet, but that AA is facing financial realities while AI is perfectly content throwing away good money after bad. If AA was "edged out" on the route, it was in part or whole because they won't continue to take losses on a segment that hemorrhages money.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 64):
AI is a plaything for the Indian government. They dont have to make a profit and they know it. They charge bottom feeder prices that no other (non-proped up) carrier can profitably match. Yet, 40% of AI's total international losses still come from NYC, YYZ, and ORD. If AI was about trying to make the carrier profitable, it would leave North America completely or raise fares and hope for the best.

  

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 64):
Thats not to say AI doesnt have better in flight service than AA, it does. However, its still the Indian govermnents chance to play airline.

  

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 56):
For the final time, nobody is denying that. All we're trying to reconcile here is that AI's victory shouldn't be viewed as a credit to them being the superior carrier, nor AA being the inferior carrier. It was a dirty war won by a dishonorable victor.

THIS.   
 
manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:54 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 64):
Average paid fare.

AI is a plaything for the Indian government. They dont have to make a profit and they know it. They charge bottom feeder prices that no other (non-proped up) carrier can profitably match. Yet, 40% of AI's total international losses still come from NYC, YYZ, and ORD. If AI was about trying to make the carrier profitable, it would leave North America completely or raise fares and hope for the best.

Thats not to say AI doesnt have better in flight service than AA, it does. However, its still the Indian govermnents chance to play airline.

I have flown this route on AA in J. All classes were not packed to the gills. And i won't be surprised if any paying customer did not want to come back.
 
manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:56 pm

Quoting AA94 (Reply 65):
You can't possibly be serious. I think that all of us realize the ridiculousness of your entire reply, so I will refrain from identifying all that is wrong with it. Perhaps you're confused. As I have addressed in following responses, AI is playing a game that AA can't win.

The screenhandle for this poster starts with "AA". Coincidence ?


Or as i said before

Quoting AA94 (Reply 65):
Quoting manny (Reply 50):
All I see is a lot of apologists.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6224
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:04 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 66):
I have flown this route on AA in J. All classes were not packed to the gills. And i won't be surprised if any paying customer did not want to come back.

Ok, but you arent making any point.

The loads on ORD-DEL were very high, yet the route bled cash. Once AI came in, they had no chance. Its not because everyone loves AI, its because AI came in and started offering fares in all classes no airline could make a profit on.

Again, AI is a plaything of the Indian government who doesnt have to make money to exist. AA doesnt have that luxury. AI can charge whatever they want and it doesnt matter.

[Edited 2012-12-26 15:04:25]
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1771
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RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:05 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 63):

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 56):
Fine. Suit yourself and believe what you want to believe. No need to throw a tantrum.

Its not a tantrum its a true observation. If you want to see what a tantrum looks like check out the statement below:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 56):
It was a dirty war won by a dishonorable victor.

Now you see what a tantrum looks like.

Haha - you can't possibly be serious? I'm going to assume weak troll attempt. THAT was a tantrum? Bro I hope you got a dictionary for christmas!

Quoting manny (Reply 66):
I have flown this route on AA in J. All classes were not packed to the gills. And i won't be surprised if any paying customer did not want to come back.

Well that's your personal opinion - fact is AA is a very popular airline for premium customers not only in the US but also abroad. You may not have liked your experience - and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. However most knowledgeable posters here have repeatedly cited AA's strong LFs on both ends as NOT a factor in why ORD-DEL was axed. Count me in as one of those paying customers who gladly took ORD-DEL more than once. If AA's plan to codeshare with IT onward from DEL had come to fruition, it would've become an even stronger player. And service-wise AA will never be SQ, but I've never had a problem with AA's FAs, in fact on one of our trips my sister became very sick and they took excellent care of us, even letting me sit in one of their rest seats so she could spread out and lie down.

No need to worry about the facts, though.
 
manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:11 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 68):

To a whole bunch of AA apologists why does anything else matter. Why can't you accept the fact that AA has a crappy product and got eased out of a market by a airline with a superior product offering.

The defensive excuses are just that.
 
manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:15 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 69):
fact is AA is a very popular airline for premium customers not only in the US but also abroad.

You are entitled to your opinion. But you must be living in a parallel universe to come to such conclusions. For quite a few past years i have not heard a single person i know who has appreciated AA's offerings. Period.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6224
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 70):
To a whole bunch of AA apologists why does anything else matter. Why can't you accept the fact that AA has a crappy product and got eased out of a market by a airline with a superior product offering.

Thanks for the laugh. Its been a bad day, I needed a pick me up and you provided that.  

If you would like to actually re-read what I wrote in the first reply of this thread:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 64):
Thats not to say AI doesnt have better in flight service than AA, it does. However, its still the Indian govermnents chance to play airline.

AA didnt get shoved out because AI has a superior product, they got shoved out because of this:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 64):
AI is a plaything for the Indian government. They dont have to make a profit and they know it. They charge bottom feeder prices that no other (non-proped up) carrier can profitably match. Yet, 40% of AI's total international losses still come from NYC, YYZ, and ORD. If AI was about trying to make the carrier profitable, it would leave North America completely or raise fares and hope for the best.

You can say thats me being an apologist if it makes you sleep better at night, but facts are facts. AI exists in North America because India foots the bill. 40% of their losses come from North America in the form of YYZ, NYC, and ORD.

AI doesnt have to make a profit to exist. Thats the whole point.

Ive given you a bunch of facts and the only thing that youve been able to come up with is that youve flown the route in J and it wasnt full.

Come back with something more solid than that.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
Jonathanxxxx
Posts: 345
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:48 pm

RE: AA To DEL?

Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:27 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 70):
To a whole bunch of AA apologists why does anything else matter. Why can't you accept the fact that AA has a crappy product and got eased out of a market by a airline with a superior product offering.

The defensive excuses are just that.

AA apologist or not. AA's product didn't matter this time as AI would beat AA no matter what. As has been said the reason AI edged them out is because they can price fares AA can't compete with. If AI would have played fair game and actually had tried to make a profit like AA things would be different. Try sticking to the facts not your opinions.
  
 
manny
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RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:52 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 72):
Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 73):

Another round of off tangent, defensive excuse making on how why AA could not make it. But the facts are AI edged AA out of that route.

And its not the only airline to do so. Many airlines have marginalized AA in the recent past, That's why it is in the trouble it is in. That is the reality.

But i am sure the apologists will come back with another round of off tangent BS. Keep at it. But its not going to change reality.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6224
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:39 am

Quoting manny (Reply 74):

If you want to change it to "the Indian government shoved AA off ORD-DEL", ill agree.

Until then, you are the one who needs to get their facts straight.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
Jonathanxxxx
Posts: 345
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:48 pm

RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:48 am

Quoting manny (Reply 74):
Another round of off tangent, defensive excuse making on how why AA could not make it. But the facts are AI edged AA out of that route.

And its not the only airline to do so. Many airlines have marginalized AA in the recent past, That's why it is in the trouble it is in. That is the reality.

But i am sure the apologists will come back with another round of off tangent BS. Keep at it. But its not going to change reality.

Personally, I'm not even that big of a fan of AA. I much prefer DL. The only thing I like about AA is their hub in MIA. That's it. Don't really know if I'm an apologist. Regardless, AI is in much more trouble than AA, fanboy or not. If it wasn't government owned AI would have been shut down long ago. Where is AA now? Still operating without government bailout. (Although Ch.11 could be seen as that equivalent..)
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1771
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:14 am

Quoting manny (Reply 71):
You are entitled to your opinion. But you must be living in a parallel universe to come to such conclusions. For quite a few past years i have not heard a single person i know who has appreciated AA's offerings. Period.

HAHAHA this might have been your "shark jumping" moment for me. You've got quite the bit to learn about AA/AI if that's what you really believe. Go over to flyertalk and read the AA forums if you don't believe AA is attracting premium traffic. If you don't think that AA chases and attracts premium customers all around the world then that's fine, but then it would be rather curious to introduce 3-class narrowbody service on transcons in the near future. Apparently there are plenty of people willing to pay $5K to fly F on AA from JFK-LAX.

You obviously have your opinions and you're by all means entitled to them. Just back them up with informed, objective facts, clearly things you're uninterested in.
 
hoons90
Posts: 3798
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RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:08 am

Quoting manny,reply=71You are entitled to your opinion. But you must be living in a parallel universe to come to such conclusions. For quite a few past years i have not heard a single person i know who has appreciated AA's offerings. Period.:

Dear Manny,

I come from a place where the two major airlines are rated five stars and four stars respectively. Yet I have flown AA on multiple occasions and enjoyed it, and when AA starts DFW-ICN next may, I'll choose to fly on AA in a heartbeat as opposed to flying on KE, even after having flown the latter over 28 times.

AA has an incredibly generous and flexible frequent flyer program that can seldom ever be matched by others. Some of the most warm, kind-hearted crew I've ever encountered were on AA and the experience on the ground has always been great as well.

I've flown on three different five-star ranked airlines so I know what good service is like. Although AA may not yet have all the bells and whistles that SQ or CX does, the top notch FFP more than makes up for it, and the new products look very promising. AA does cater to a huge premium clientele...just count the number of premium seats they offer to places like GRU, LHR and NRT. I'm flying to Brazil in several months and was stunned at the amount of flights AA offers there vis-a-vis other airlines, so it looks like AA certainly does not have many problems competing with other airlines.
Flown: 2L 7C 9E 9L AA AB AC AF AY AZ BA BR BX B6 CA CO CP CX DL EK EY JL KE KL LA LH LX MQ NW OZ PD RW SQ TG TP TR TS US WG WN WS XE XJ
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:37 am

This whole thread has become comical to read. Is Manny the new username for MogandoCI, the same bloke that used to lurk the threads and hijack every topic into an AA bash session then send out threatening/defaming private messages to users? if not, they're at least cut from the same cloth, it seems.

for the record, I am not an AA apologist. I don't even hold status with AA and haven't flown them in almost a year, even though I live in Chicago and travel to DFW once per month. I do have elite status on UA, and I can assure you, Manny, that if you ever got stuck in one of their old J configured birds as I was as recently as October, you'd want to go running back into the arms of AA.

the ife/ptv screens in AA Y on the 777s were better than UAs in J. I flew outbound on NH on the same route from SEA to NRT and would argue that the superior ANA product (as well as DLs) ought to have out edged UA by now, but that hasn't happened.

your argument is baseless and everyone disagrees with you.

Also, the fact that only three US flights (EWR, JFK and ORD, since YYZ has been seemingly suspended for the better part of a year at this juncture) account for 40 pct of AIs losses across its entire international network is pretty darn sorry, IMO.
 
manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:55 am

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 76):
If you want to change it to "the Indian government shoved AA off ORD-DEL", ill agree.

Until then, you are the one who needs to get their facts straight.
Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 77):
You've got quite the bit to learn about AA/AI if that's what you really believe. Go over to flyertalk and read the AA forums if you don't believe AA is attracting premium traffic.

Facts are AI edged out AA. AI had the better product. AA had the lousy product.

And what i still haven't brought up is how do you apologists explain all the other services that AA has to stop over the past few years ?
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:12 am

Quoting manny (Reply 80):

For as many markets as AA has had to withdraw from over the years. I can assure you Delta has pulled out of 1.5 times as many. UA has also probably a 1:1 pull out ratio as AA. This is what happens when a privately owned carrier has to restructure its network in federal bankruptcy court or else die off and cease to exist.

More to the point, maybe I should bring up to you, the AI apologist, how many times the Indian govt has bailed out Air India from collapse over the years? Probably as many times as you've posted aimless rants on this thread that clearly fail to demonstrate logical reasoning (if not more).

That being said, I'm done here. You can't argue with ignorance. Good night to all.
 
manny
Posts: 563
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RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:14 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 81):
For as many markets as AA has had to withdraw from over the years. I can assure you Delta has pulled out of 1.5 times as many. UA has also probably a 1:1 pull out ratio as AA. This is what happens when a privately owned carrier has to restructure its network in federal bankruptcy court or else die off and cease to exist.

Any proof or link.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 81):
More to the point, maybe I should bring up to you, the AI apologist,

LOL. Imitation is.........

I am not apologizing for anything. I do not have to. AI is better. And most of you have agreed with that. I have not heard a word of descent.
 
factsonly
Posts: 3054
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:55 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 14):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
other old stations are covered there as well, plus ones AA has not served at all - eg - Amsterdam

Indeed never served, but I have had confirmed reservations, and issued tickets, on AA to AMS, routed via ORD, but AA never started the route, we ended up flying via BRU taking the Thalys into Centaal Station, at least it was all F or J.


AA promoting a tourist destination 'not served' is not that strange. It is all about generating traffic. We need to distinguish between 'not served by own metal' and 'codeshare detination'. For one will most definitely find AA flightcodes at AMS departures & arrivals:

- dep. 07:45 AMS - arr. 08:05 LHR AA 6434 Non-Stop A320 daily
- dep. 09:30 AMS - arr. 09:35 LGW AA 6253 Non-Stop B737 daily
- dep. 10:50 AMS - arr. 11:10 LHR AA 6435 Non-Stop B767 daily
- dep. 11:55 AMS - arr. 12:20 LHR AA 6443 Non-Stop A320 daily
- dep. 14:55 AMS - arr. 15:15 LHR AA 6505 Non-Stop A320 daily
- dep. 16:40 AMS - arr. 16:55 LHR AA 6507 Non-Stop A320 daily
 
Jonathanxxxx
Posts: 345
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RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 80):

Why don't YOU provide some facts about why AI is so much better than AA. Everything has been your opinion so far..
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6224
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RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:01 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 80):
And what i still haven't brought up is how do you apologists explain all the other services that AA has to stop over the past few years ?

AA has drawn down ORD-Europe (sans LHR) because UA handed their A$$ to them there.

AA has struggled with NYC-Europe because DL was more agressive then they anticipated.

AA has stuggled (pre-BK) with everything outside DFW and MIA because their costs have made it hard to compete and their domestic product in Y is stale compared to DL and (to a lesser degree) UA.

AA has been driven off by other carriers in lots of situations. ORD-DEL, however, is not one of them.

AA was driven from there because AI marched in and charged bottom feeder fares that no airline can compete with (outside NYC). As was mentioned (and you cant seem to get it through your skull), AI is a plaything of the Indian government and never needs to make a profit because the Indian goverment will foot the bill. The average paid fare on ORD-DEL (for both carriers) was less than ORD-MAN and its more than twice the distance. No carrier can compete with a government with deep pockets.

Now then, if your still blind enough to call me an apologist, do it. However, you are the one that needs to get their facts in order. Otherwise, your proving you know little about the industry.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
ripcordd
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:13 pm

laxdude UA has not handed their a$$ to AA in europe AA is going towards code share fly everyone to LHR/MAD/HEL and let their partners do it from there that seems the way AA wants to go. Even domestic they want the pilot scope to open up more code shares with B6 & AS. To Manny AI didnt drive AA off the Indian Govt did both planes prob went out oversold most days and with one carrier having a endless check book it didnt matter if the made money or not AA was not in the shape to take on the Indian Govt.
 
AAIL86
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:00 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 80):
Facts are AI edged out AA. AI had the better product. AA had the lousy product.

And what i still haven't brought up is how do you apologists explain all the other services that AA has to stop over the past few years ?

I've got a great idea ... maybe AA should give the Indian government a loan to the tune of several hundred million per year. India can then turn around - deposit that directly to AI's bank account, and AA can earn interest on AI's DEL-ORD route. What do you guys think about that one??

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 85):
Now then, if your still blind enough to call me an apologist, do it. However, you are the one that needs to get their facts in order. Otherwise, your proving you know little about the industry.

Yep, your an apologist, plain and simple  
" Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness ... Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. ” - Mark Twain, 1869
 
manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:50 pm

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 87):
I've got a great idea ... maybe AA should give the Indian government a loan to the tune of several hundred million per year. India can then turn around - deposit that directly to AI's bank account, and AA can earn interest on AI's DEL-ORD route. What do you guys think about that one??

:facepalm:
 
EddieDude
Posts: 7048
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RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 58):
I thought 77Es are also being "upgraded " to 10Y? Could be wrong though...

Opps, my bad. You are absolutely right and that is what I meant to type. Maybe AA would have a better chance this time around with lower costs courtesy of Chapter 11 restructuring plus a higher density plane (in Y) with no F class cabin.
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1771
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RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:18 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 88):
:facepalm:

That's basically what all of us have done while reading your countless senseless rants that have no basis in reality.

Anyway we've all made our points and as always, you're free to believe whatever you like, no matter how inaccurate it is.

Thread has basically run its course IMHO.
 
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OzarkD9S
Posts: 5783
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RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 82):


I have not heard a word of descent.

The word you're looking for is "dissent".
"My soul is in the sky". -Pyramus- A Midsummer's Night Dream
 
AA94
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:52 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 88):
:facepalm:

My thoughts exactly. For my sanity, I think I will stop posting on this thread now.

You're living in a fantasy world, and we all know it. Some people can't be saved.
 
mhkansan
Posts: 876
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:02 pm

RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:05 pm

I through-check bags and passengers on AI's ORD-DEL flight all the time. Not that AA has a codeshare agreement with them at all, but to say that AI's flight is without feed at one of the world's largest hubs is false.

Its fascinating really to see that the airlines operate a truly global through ticketing and transportation system despite there being so many differences in how each individual airline operates.
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1771
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:55 pm

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 93):
I through-check bags and passengers on AI's ORD-DEL flight all the time. Not that AA has a codeshare agreement with them at all, but to say that AI's flight is without feed at one of the world's largest hubs is false.

I dont doubt it. I'm sure there are a large number of Indian graduate students at KSU who are only too happy to pay the bottom-feeder fares on AI to get back home - hell I would too if I was a college student! Which again adds to the argument that by all accounts AA's flight should've worked (on a level playing field).
 
LFutia
Posts: 3159
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2002 11:04 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:35 am

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 90):
That's basically what all of us have done while reading your countless senseless rants that have no basis in reality.

I agree!

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 93):

I through-check bags and passengers on AI's ORD-DEL flight all the time. Not that AA has a codeshare agreement with them at all, but to say that AI's flight is without feed at one of the world's largest hubs is false.

Been there, done that. pretty easy I say, just re-check in and present your bag tags.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 94):
I dont doubt it. I'm sure there are a large number of Indian graduate students at KSU who are only too happy to pay the bottom-feeder fares on AI to get back home - hell I would too if I was a college student! Which again adds to the argument that by all accounts AA's flight should've worked (on a level playing field).

I always worked the Delhi flight for gate checking bags. tonnes of strollers and people with too many carryons. I'm sure they had fun when we sent down tonnes of bags for the ramp.

Leo/ORD
Leo/ORD
 
manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:11 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 90):
That's basically what all of us have done while reading your countless senseless rants that have no basis in reality.

Anyway we've all made our points and as always, you're free to believe whatever you like, no matter how inaccurate it is.
Quoting AA94 (Reply 92):
My thoughts exactly. For my sanity, I think I will stop posting on this thread now.

You're living in a fantasy world, and we all know it. Some people can't be saved.

This is the douchebag playbook 101.

1. Go off tangent and offer something besides the point as facts.
2. Find safety in numbers.
3. When despite the numbers you cannot still prevail then just ridicule.
 
manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:14 pm

Quoting LFutia (Reply 95):
I always worked the Delhi flight for gate checking bags. tonnes of strollers and people with too many carryons. I'm sure they had fun when we sent down tonnes of bags for the ramp.

Wow. Just Wow. And you contend you are an Indian.

You still have to explain why AI is a garbage airline.
 
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RWA380
Posts: 5757
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

RE: AA To DEL?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:56 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 48):

AI was offering dirt cheap J and F fares on this route. People would purchase separate reservations between XXX and ORD and fly r/t on AI from ORD to DEL (or wherever beyond).
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 55):
Yes. And no. I lived in Delhi for the first half of my life and flew abroad quite a bit. While AI was always the cheapest option to LHR, my family never flew them. It was all BA, all the time. Even ended up on a TG flight back when TG was flying 744s on BKK-DEL-LHR (TG 915/916 I think). AI was simply not an option. That stratification has been around for a while. Lets call AI's clientele the 'labour class'. Think ME flights stereotype.

Here is what I have experienced, As a travel agent, Oakley was one of my larger clients, the assistant to the president was a wonderful lady, who was from India, she made and approved all the travel arrangements. When she personally went back to India from LA, She ALWAYS said "no AI" even though at that time AI had a 1 stop LAX-FRA-DEL flight. She was booking for 4 other people in her family, so cost was a factor, but she never ever flew AI.

Once there was an urgent need for two high level guys to get to FRA one day, and because of the season flights were booked solid in J on the usual carrier UA/LH. So she agreed to let them book AI in J LAX-FRA-LAX. When they did finally reach FRA 8 hours late, they did it with no working entertainment, cold meals, and poor service in general. They called from FRA and they threw away that cheap FRA-LAX ticket and flew home via LHR on BA at twice the cost of their r/t ticket on AI. Except for some regional and local flying, I have never booked AI for anybody again.

I repeated this story so that all can see, that there are both Indians and Americans that dislike AI, and that everyone has been right to some extent in what they are saying here. The idea that AI chased anyone off any route is absurd to me.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6224
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: AA To DEL?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 98):
She ALWAYS said "no AI" even though at that time AI had a 1 stop LAX-FRA-DEL flight.

I flew the LAX-FRA leg on AI circa 2006. I paid $350 round trip including taxes at the time. I know the 77W's they fly now are nice, but that 744 sure wasnt.


Quoting manny (Reply 97):
Wow. Just Wow. And you contend you are an Indian.

Are you defending AI simply because youre Indian? If so, thats stupid.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!

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