Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
airbazar
Posts: 10429
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:34 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 44):

If you're sayiing that on a route with demand for only 130 seats, it was more cost effective to fly a 747 with only 130 passengers and 250 or so empty seats, I would disagree. Unfortunately for many carriers, that's exactly what happened on many 747 routes during the early years of service.

No, that's not it   I was suggesting that with the explosion of air travel in the 60's, airlines saw the need for a bigger more capable airplane and the 747 had a cost per seat that was far lower than the 707/DC8. Funny enough it's the same exact scenario that we have right now with the A380. I wonder how many people will be claiming 40 years from now, that the majority of A380 customers ordered it for prestige only 
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 45):
The 742 was on offer before the 741 entered service. Indeed, the initial 742's entered service in late 1970, months after the initial 741. All the aforementioned carriers ordered their 2 (each) 741 or 742 aircraft before the 747 entered service.

My point is that if they really just wanted to be like the "Jones's" they would have ordered the first available. They ordered the more capable 200, my guess because they really beleived that there was a need for it. It's very difficult for me to believe that a carrier that continued to operate the 747 right up to the 90's and 2000's, and in some cases still do, odered the early 747's for prestige only. That may or may not have been the case for a few but I do believe that for the majority they did think that they could use it given the aviation context of the late 60's.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 47):
But still ordered before the 741 service entry, proving my point that many carriers ordered (token) 2 747's, not just EI.

Most carriers only had a couple of routes with enough demand for the 747. why would they order more?
 
User avatar
shamrock604
Posts: 2199
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:27 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:47 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 50):
It's very difficult for me to believe that a carrier that continued to operate the 747 right up to the 90's and 2000's, and in some cases still do, odered the early 747's for prestige only

Indeed. EI could have ditched the entire 747 fleet quite easily, and much sooner than it did. EI ordered 2 767-300ER's specifically to launch a DUB-LAX service in the late 80's. That service didnt go ahead as the Irish government would not permit a direct DUB-LAX routing, insisting on the Shannon stop.

EI could have kept those 767's, adding one or two more, to replace the 747 fleet. They chose instead to keep the 747.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:16 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 51):
EI could have kept those 767's, adding one or two more, to replace the 747 fleet. They chose instead to keep the 747.

Those two 767 were owned by GPA, and since they couldn't fly them on the wished route, they spent a lot of time sub-leased to other carriers, like AeroMexico, before going to TW. Only EI-CAL got painted in EI livery and in three years, it accumulated 6038 hours and 2792 landings, while with TW for two years, the numbers rose to 15787 and 4280 respectively.
 
bx737
Posts: 643
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:47 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:40 am

When EI ordered the 747s the passenger numbers were rising. They needed a bigger aircraft than the 707 for the summer period. This was recognised at the time and EI made a deal with Trans Carribbean to lease the 2 747s to them for the winter. However before this deal could operate Trans Carribbean was taken over by American Airlines who cancelled the agreement. This left EI with the problem of two 747s that were not required for the winter periods. In the heel of the hunt, EI sued AA and won damages from them.
 
warden145
Posts: 539
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:36 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:34 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 32):
True, but prior to the first oil shock, the 747 was seen as the "natural" replacement for the 707 and DC-8 as traffic was growing strongly.
Quoting airbazar (Reply 50):
I was suggesting that with the explosion of air travel in the 60's, airlines saw the need for a bigger more capable airplane and the 747 had a cost per seat that was far lower than the 707/DC8. Funny enough it's the same exact scenario that we have right now with the A380. I wonder how many people will be claiming 40 years from now, that the majority of A380 customers ordered it for prestige only
Quoting airbazar (Reply 50):
I do believe that for the majority they did think that they could use it given the aviation context of the late 60's.

   Thank you guys...it's amazing how things may appear with the benefit of hindsight; however, with all due respect, I get the impression that there are some who are only looking at this from today's perspective, without taking into consideration how airlines operated at the time and how the future looked to the airlines as they were placing these orders. I think people tend to forget how much things changed in the 1970's with the oil shocks, and for that matter, deregulation in the U.S. airline industry...and how the world looked before these events...
ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2941
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:35 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 52):
Those two 767 were owned by GPA, and since they couldn't fly them on the wished route, they spent a lot of time sub-leased to other carriers,

What were the routes on which EI wished to fly the 767s they leased from GPA? What were the routes on which they were actually flown?

Seems like the 767-300ER would have been ideal for EI's trans-Atlantic services on a year-around basis, given what seem to be considerable seasonal fluctuations in the Ireland-North America market. (due to high percentage of VFR/tourist/leisure pax?). The 767s would also have allowed increased frequencies and more non-stop flight possibilities to their North American markets.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
The A330 basically saved Aer Lingus in my opinion!

On the trans-Atlantic routes for sure. According to a caption associated with a photo of an EI A330-300 I came across minutes ago: "Due to the [A330's] frugal fuel consumption, their introduction very quickly turned around routes which had been operating at a loss for several years..."
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4976
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:32 am

Except the 767s didn't offer enough capacity for the summer, it really was that simple.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2462
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:47 am

If you were a 747-100 customer, and it was because you needed more space than a 707, it doesn't seem like you had that many more options when the 747 was approaching production, though. You could jump ship from Boeing and get a stretch DC-8, you could hold out for the DC-10 and L-1011- but from what I understand, those were at first being considered for shorter, domestic-USA type routes, and the longer range models such as for trans-Atlantic were only offered somewhat later. If you were in EI's position, where you're doing some long flights across the Atlantic Ocean but not fielding a Pacific network or anything like that, the 747-100's lack of range compared to later 707 variants wouldn't seem to be as big an issue, either.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, I may have a whole bunch of dates wrong.
 
kaitak
Posts: 10082
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:56 am

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 55):
What were the routes on which EI wished to fly the 767s they leased from GPA? What were the routes on which they were actually flown?

Originally, they were ordered for the DUB-LAX route, but as mentioned above, the govt of the time rejected this. There was a huge debate about this and the govt was really just kowtowing to the regional lobby, which knew where to kick them. The Dublin lobby just used logic and economics, which really didn't work at all! One of the 767s was sitting out on the apron for a very long time, doing nothing. One was used for about a year (perhaps less - can't recall) on the DUB-SNN-BOS route; that one had a hybrid Air Aruba livery.

I have a timetable somewhere at home for 1992 and at one stage they intended to use them for a thrice weekly DUB-SNN-ORD flight, but it never happened.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 57):
If you were in EI's position, where you're doing some long flights across the Atlantic Ocean but not fielding a Pacific network or anything like that, the 747-100's lack of range compared to later 707 variants wouldn't seem to be as big an issue, either.Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, I may have a whole bunch of dates wrong.

Absolutely correct. The 747-100 was fine for EI's needs; the -200 didn't offer them anything useful. They did briefly consider secondhand -300s from SAA to replace the -100s, but of course, Airbus came with the A330s and the rest - as they say - history.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2462
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:07 am

Did the DC-8-61 and -63 have trans-Atlantic range? Seems they didn't do much of that sort of flying except on weird military charters because of airline regulation in the US, and then once that happened everybody had proper widebodies.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:01 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 57):
you could hold out for the DC-10 and L-1011- but from what I understand, those were at first being considered for shorter, domestic-USA type routes, and the longer range models such as for trans-Atlantic were only offered somewhat later

You are right about that but, to connect Ireland with say BOS, JFK and ORD, even the DC-10-10, the original version made for US domestic services, could have probably made it. With Great Circle Mapper, which is not the most accurate way to calculate the route length, SNN-JFK is 3,081 miles, whereas a DC-10-10 could fly up to 3,800 miles.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 2056
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:51 pm

Before EI's 747s entered service, they signed an agreement with Trans Caribbean for TCA to lease the aircraft during the winter season. This would have worked out well, because winter was TCA's high season.

However, AA took over TCA in March, 1971, and promptly cancelled the agreement. EI sued AA, and ultimately AA was forced to pay several million dollars to EI to cover the revenue EI would have earned from the lease.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:53 pm

I think what a lot of younger readers here don't understand is that between the B707/DC-8/VC-10 and the B747, there was a huge leap in comfort ... and a huge competitive edge. When the B747 was introduced, it was THE airplane and if you were only flying a narrow body, then you simply could not compete. Period.

So, PA and TW had large fleets of B747s ... and they flew them everywhere. If the country to where they were flying did not have an airline that also had B747s, then they might as well shut down the route until they did. Sounds crazy, but that is how it was in the early 1970s. These airlines didn't need the speed, they didn't need the range and they didn't need the economy ... they needed the all important bold faced type in the timetable that indicated a wide body aircraft, and in those days the only wide body aircraft was the B747.

When the DC-10s, and L1011s started flying, it allowed airlines that could not fill a B747 to compete, as they were perceived with the same competitive edge. Same thing with the B767 and the A310, but one ratchet down, when they appeared.

So why did EI purchase the B747? They had to ... because that is what the competition was doing!

I know for the younger enthusiasts here it seems unimaginable. Especially today when lets face it, the B747. B767, A340, A380, etc etc etc are all the same to an average passenger. And yes, the B787 is an amazing aircraft ... but to Aunt Ethel buying a seat to DUB, she doesn't care!

But this is the funny part, she did in 1970!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2941
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:24 pm

Since we have discussed the related subject of EI's trans-Atantic routes here, when and why did they discontinue Montreal? Seems that Canada would be a traffic generator of some significance for EI for the same reasons as NYC/BOS/ORD. Was it due in any way to a lack-of-suitable-aircraft issue?
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:41 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 62):
So why did EI purchase the B747? They had to ... because that is what the competition was doing!

But EI's primary market was Ireland. Who was EI competing with that operated 747s to Ireland? Pan Am didn't serve Ireland and even in the late '70s TWA was still using 707s to Ireland, 7 or 8 years after EI had put their 747s into service.

Nobody except government-owned EI was willing to bear the costs of the requirement that all transatlantic flights to DUB also had to serve SNN which meant EI had to fly 747s on the 105 nm SNN-DUB sector. TWA dropped SNN and DUB about the time they retired their 707s.
 
User avatar
shamrock604
Posts: 2199
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:27 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:44 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 64):

Pan Am did fly to Ireland - just not to Dublin.

Services by PA remained at SNN instead.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:50 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 65):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 64):

Pan Am did fly to Ireland - just not to Dublin.

Services by PA remained at SNN instead.

Yes I see Pan Am had SNN service in 1973, also using the 707 like TWA, but they must have dropped Ireland completely not long after (probably also around the time they retired their 707s) as there's no Ireland service in a 1979 timetable.
 
LO231
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:55 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:15 pm

We should also look at photo search at WAW and LY. Sometimes they need them a lot, especially during holidays,, World War, Holocaust periodes and such. I've seen thousands of Israeli students coming to Poland as a school trip. Big capacity and Israel cannot afford Boeing from US to become unfriendly, he
Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
 
LO231
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:55 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:17 pm

We should also look at photo search at WAW and LY. Sometimes they need them a lot, especially during holidays,, World War, Holocaust periodes and such. I've seen thousands of Israeli students coming to Poland as a school trip. Big capacity and Israel cannot afford Boeing from US to become unfriendly, he

BTW. It's one of the very few airlines that WAW has a pleasure to see with 744
Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:18 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 64):
But EI's primary market was Ireland. Who was EI competing with that operated 747s to Ireland? Pan Am didn't serve Ireland and even in the late '70s TWA was still using 707s to Ireland, 7 or 8 years after EI had put their 747s into service.

Yes. But I almost wonder if it was the chicken or the egg. Had EI not started B747 service into Ireland, would PA and TW have? That edge in competition was hard to ignore. With the huge B747 orders from PA, and to a lesser extent TW, as well as AF and BA through connections, certainly the threat of wide-body competition was there.

And being first, and already flying them, I wonder if PA and TW had not acknowledged that EI always would fly them, and not back down from competition once it started? And PA and TW just continued with their B707s.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 2056
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:56 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 64):

Pan Am did fly to Ireland - just not to Dublin.

Services by PA remained at SNN instead.

Yes I see Pan Am had SNN service in 1973, also using the 707 like TWA, but they must have dropped Ireland completely not long after (probably also around the time they retired their 707s) as there's no Ireland service in a 1979 timetable.[/quote]

Pan Am and TWA had a "mini swap" in early 1974, where PA relinquished their US-Ireland authority (leaving TWA as the sole US carrier to Ireland) in exchange for TWA relinquishing their Detroit-Europe nonstop / no change of plane authority (leaving PA as the only US carrier with nonstop / single plane authority from DTW to Europe; TWA was allowed to continue to carry DTW-Europe passengers as long as they changed planes in New York). This swap was a precursor to the much larger PA / AA and PA / TW route swaps in 1974 / 1975.

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 63):
when and why did they discontinue Montreal? Seems that Canada would be a traffic generator of some significance for EI for the same reasons as NYC/BOS/ORD. Was it due in any way to a lack-of-suitable-aircraft issue?

I think EI discontinued Montreal when they retired their 707s. The 747 was too large to serve Montreal year round, especially because once transatlantic flights moved from YUL to YMX, it was much harder for passengers from elsewhere in Canada to connect to EI's Montreal-Ireland flights.
 
tonystan
Posts: 1747
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:23 pm

I wonder how different EI operations on the Atlantic may have looked during the 70s and 80s if they had held off a few years and waited for the DC10 or Tristar to enter service. Aer Lingushad a number of successful Tristar leases over the years during the peak seasons.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
tonystan
Posts: 1747
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:23 pm

I wonder how different EI operations on the Atlantic may have looked during the 70s and 80s if they had held off a few years and waited for the DC10 or Tristar to enter service. Aer Lingushad a number of successful Tristar leases over the years during the peak seasons.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:32 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 71):
I wonder how different EI operations on the Atlantic may have looked during the 70s and 80s if they had held off a few years and waited for the DC10 or Tristar to enter service.

I don't remember at what time Aer Lingus placed its order for the 747s, but talks about the new long range DC-10-30 happened during 1969 with KSSU group (KL, SK, SR & UT) and they placed that year a group order for 14 + 22 options. That was a year or so before the first DC-10 maiden flight.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:54 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 73):
I don't remember at what time Aer Lingus placed its order for the 747s, but talks about the new long range DC-10-30 happened during 1969

Boeing shows the the date of the EI order for 2 741s as January 10, 1967.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 70):
Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 63):
when and why did they discontinue Montreal? Seems that Canada would be a traffic generator of some significance for EI for the same reasons as NYC/BOS/ORD. Was it due in any way to a lack-of-suitable-aircraft issue?

I think EI discontinued Montreal when they retired their 707s. The 747 was too large to serve Montreal year round, especially because once transatlantic flights moved from YUL to YMX,

EI flights to YUL continued to ORD, That route (DUB-SNN-YUL-ORD) started in April 1966, twice a week. I don't think EI had 5th freedom rights YUL-ORD.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:06 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 74):
Boeing shows the the date of the EI order for 2 741s as January 10, 1967.

Right, so that was a good two years before the DC-10-30 order I was referring to.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 2):Did EI's 747's fly to BOS at all?Absolutely, right up until it retired; indeed, it also operated to ORD via BOS for a while

Back in July 1989, I saw one of their 747 overnight at ORD
 
rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:21 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:11 pm

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 22):
There was a woman behind me flying back home with her 8, yes 8, very young children.

'Octomom, the prequel'
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
soon7x7
Posts: 2267
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 10:51 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:18 pm

EI-BED retired w/ 101,000 hours on her. I cut up her cargo doors, rudders, flaps , landing gears 2 years ago. Still got the upper crew escape hatches, vertical fin cap, movie screen, crew life jackets, made a desk from her wing...still, she ain't dead! Even have the "St Kieren" cut out from her skin. Considering all the time she flew, her insides were in relatively good shape. More ramp rash than corrosion...RIP
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2941
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:06 am

Looking at EI's Winter 1972-73 timetable, the only 747 flights shown in their entire network of the time are EI/IN 105/104 DUB-SNN-JFK/JFK-SNN-DUB (IN = Aerlinte Eireann, then the official designation for EI's trans-Atlantic services), operating on Mondays and Thursdays only. Seems like a major underutilization of even one aircraft, let alone two (EI-ASI and -ASJ were both in the fleet at the time) as well as confirming that 747s were "way too much" aircraft for EI/IN's Winter schedule (which EI apparently recognized from the outset). Looking at the histories of -ASI and -ASJ, I find no record of either being leased out prior to September 1973.

So... were EI's two 747s idle during most of the Winter 1972-73 season, or did EI find other work for them besides the scheduled twice weekly JFK turnaround? Did the ill-fated lease agreement with Trans Caribbean (merged into AA March 1971) mentioned in Reply 53 in any way adversely effect EI's opportunities to lease their 747s to another airline(s) some 19 months after the TCA lease was cancelled by AA?
 
luckyone
Posts: 4012
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:37 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 59):
Did the DC-8-61 and -63 have trans-Atlantic range

The -63 definitely had Transatlantic range from Ireland.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 64):
But EI's primary market was Ireland. Who was EI competing with that operated 747s to Ireland?

Just a thought, but did VFR have a hand in this decision? When the 747's were ordered, there were still a great many first generation Irish immigrants, and they were a relatively young population. Add up them and their children going home to visit the grandparents and other family, and you could have a solid business case for a larger aircraft. That case could have become less important as the Irish immigrants integrated into the general American population.
 
jetstream63
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:18 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:34 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 77):

I flew on all three of the EI 747s over the years including 6 flights on EI-BED. Interesting to hear that you were there at the very end of her career. As has been mentioned already, they were never a very suitable fleet choice for the airline and the Shannon stopover rule killed any real chance of viability. Always felt that maybe they should have switched to the 767-200ER/-300ER when they first came out but of course money for the investment was another problem. The A330s have certainly proven to be much more successful and I enjoy flying on them.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:26 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 79):
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 59):
Did the DC-8-61 and -63 have trans-Atlantic range

The -63 definitely had Transatlantic range from Ireland.

Even the -61 could probably handle Ireland-East Coast U.S. routes without much problem. Remember EI also used the early JT3C-powered Boeing 720 on transatlantic routes which Boeing shows as having about 400 NM less range than a DC-8-61, both with full passenger loads and no cargo..

The DC-8-63 could handle Europe-West Coast.
 
kaitak
Posts: 10082
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:10 pm

Just came across this video from back in 1971 - nice!

http://euscreen.eu/play.jsp?id=EUS_666F78AFD0A7494196545257027FACDA

Sometimes we forget what a massive step it was from the existing aircraft, the 707 and DC10, to the 747.

The A330 may be more modern and economic - and you can't say it isn't sleek, particularly in EI colours - but it still doesn't have the presence of the 747.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:28 pm

Interesting archive.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 82):
The A330 may be more modern and economic - and you can't say it isn't sleek, particularly in EI colours - but it still doesn't have the presence of the 747.

I guess that presence is of course due to the sheer size and shape of the beast, but also probably due to the huge leap forward it represented back then. My mother has remembered several times her impression when she first encountered the DC-10. It was like facing a building, especially when boarding was from the tarmac through movable stairs.
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 5254
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:37 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 82):
http://euscreen.eu/play.jsp?id=EUS_666F78AFD0A7494196545257027FACDA

Beautiful link!!!!

My favourite quite - "It's so damned big that walking down its corridors is almost like a stroll down Grafton street."

Also, check those Economy Class meals - like Business Class today!
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
tonymctigue
Posts: 997
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:01 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:24 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 84):
Also, check those Economy Class meals - like Business Class today!

Speaking of meala on EI 747s, does anyone remember the kiddies meal box they used to give out? If I recall, it used to always be a burger, a green apple and (possibly) chips? Does anyone here also remember the "Youngs Flyers" they used to give out? The contents varied from time to time but they generally used to have crayons, a colouring book, some postcards with pictures of EI aircraft and a badge with "Youngs Flyers" on it? There is also a whole drawer full of teaspoons at home that have the EI logo printed on them all "borrowed" from EI 747s.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
Eagleboy
Posts: 1874
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:29 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:48 am

I have one of those old Young Flyers goodie bags, and a kids wings too
 
shankly
Posts: 1407
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 10:42 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:42 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 84):
Also, check those Economy Class meals - like Business Class today!


....with proper potatoes as rightly demanded by all good Irishmen and women!

As a young spotter in the 70'sand 80's, the EI 747's would pop up in many guises...Paddy Zulu already noted, being very familiar to those of us at LHR. It strikes me that whilst it may have been a tad too much plane for EI, they were masters of recovering its utilization (and therefore revenue) via leasing
L1011 - P F M
 
tonymctigue
Posts: 997
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:01 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:50 pm

Quoting shankly (Reply 87):
As a young spotter in the 70'sand 80's, the EI 747's would pop up in many guises...Paddy Zulu already noted, being very familiar to those of us at LHR. It strikes me that whilst it may have been a tad too much plane for EI, they were masters of recovering its utilization (and therefore revenue) via leasing

It was leasing out excess EI capacity during the slow winter seasons that gave birth to what was once the worlds largest aircraft sales and leasing firms, Guinness Peat Aviation based in Shannon which included Mr Tony Ryan (who also gave us something else with the name Ryan attached) as one of its founders. Sadly, it all came to a tragic end in 1992 after a disasterous IPO which brought the company down. You can almost argue that finding a way to use EI 747s during the winter season in a convoluted way gave birth to Ryanair. Here's a few links with some info on GPA.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinness_Peat_Aviation

http://www.independent.ie/business/g...ed-before-crashlanding-388670.html

http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/Guinness-Peat-Aviation-%28GPA%29
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
Sligo
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:59 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:07 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
... and here's a few gratuitous pictures:

Excellent picture selection there. Thanks for digging those up in order....
 
soon7x7
Posts: 2267
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 10:51 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:47 pm

Quoting JETSTREAM63 (Reply 80):

I found some photos the other day of the rudder with the shamrock laying on the ground before I chopped her up...still have the shamrock panels though, for some reason I saved a lot of parts from EI-BED. I even fabricated an exec desk from a 4'X6' wing plank before they chopped up the wings...came out nice...Part of the deal was I grew up close to JFK and used to see her all the time flying over my house and at the time the green was one of the loudest paint schemes at JFK, 'cept Braniff.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7490
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:38 pm

Evrey one eating Filet Migon in coach ? Remember its the inaugural 747 for Aer Lingus so they could have had a "special meal." Even in 1970 EI wasn't that generous. In 2007 when Singapore Air had their A380 inaugural, coach had J class meals too.
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:40 pm

EI has a long history of buying questionable airplanes (i.e. B720 and 747) but then making money by leasing them out. Kind of a risky financial strategy IMHO.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
scarebus03
Posts: 232
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:14 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:40 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 92):

I certainly wouldn't refer to the 747 or indeed 720 being questionable Aircraft! However suitability for EI certainly may have been questionable. In those days there was no bad decision possible as it was all state funding.

Ah those were the days........!
No faults found......................
 
tonymctigue
Posts: 997
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:01 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:38 am

Quoting scarebus03 (Reply 93):
EI has a long history of buying questionable airplanes (i.e. B720 and 747) but then making money by leasing them out. Kind of a risky financial strategy IMHO.

I think it is also easy to look at the likes of the B747 and B720 as "questionable" aircraft for EI looking at it from today's point of view. It is very easy to forget that you had very little to choose from in those days in terms of long haul aircraft. The mere idea of flying the Altantic with a twin was laughable. Your choice was literally limited to two basic aircraft types which were the DC8/B707 type or the DC10/B747 type. My opinion is that the only truly useless aircraft type that EI bought was the Carvair.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:57 pm

I have often wondered if EI made more money actually flying people to and from Ireland or from aircraft leasing to third parties. If I remember correctly, their first non-fan B720's could not make it nonstop to JFK without a fuel stop and it wasn't until they took delivery of the B707-348's they could make the trip.

In the 70's and 80's it was not unusual to see EI aircraft all over the world leased out. It is an unusual business model but can catch up to you quickly if the economy turns south and the leases run out or the leasor stops making payments. You find yourself with a lot of parked very expensive hardware.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
Eagleboy
Posts: 1874
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:29 am

RE: Why Did EI Purchase The 747?

Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:58 pm

In the 60's 70's EI were seen as non-aligned so they were an acceptable company to deal with for many countries around the round. Especially in Africa and the Carribean.

The leasing/MX work/aviation consultancy sidelines were in place to counter act the highly seasonal nature of the Irish airline trade. I realise that downturns can affect leases' but EI could just move elsewhere in the globe. The global economy was not as tightly bound then as it is today.

EI were able to utilse their own aircraft in the Northern Hemisphere summer then lease them out during the Southern Hemisphere summer when they were surplus at home.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos