Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP

FlyingFan18 · Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:00 pm

According to our local news station a Southwest flight has veered off the taxiway at MacArthur Airport this morning. Seems like a random incident. Not quite sure what happened.

http://longisland.news12.com/news/po...rs-off-macarthur-taxiway-1.4379050
For those who are not NYers or have news 12:

Quote:
RONKONKOMA -
Suffolk police have confirmed a Southwest flight veered off the taxiway at MacArthur Airport this morning.

According to News 12 Long Island reporter Drew Scott, Southwest flight 4695 was taxiing when the nose wheel and landing gear left the taxiway and got stuck in the mud.

The plane was carrying 136 passengers, which have since exited the plane and returned to the airport via buses. No injuries have been reported.

MacArthur Airport appears to be open despite the incident.

DLX737200 · Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:08 pm

Southwest seems to have this problem often...

jfklganyc · Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:10 pm

They taxi too fast.

I dont know how they get away with as SOP

AWACSooner · Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:41 pm

This makes what? Maybe the second or third time this has happened to WN this year out of how many millions of flights?

Yah, they're soooooooooooo unsafe...better ground them before someone gets killed!

FlyingFan18 · Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 2):

Although I am unaware that they taxi fast how can they do it in such a small (smaller) airport like ISP? They should know considering it poured last night like cats and dogs. Also what about those rather weird taxiways… doing a turn so fast I could see them easily sliding of the taxiway.
- Justin

plateman · Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:52 pm

Newsday has a clearer pic too .. story is behind paywall but image is visable to all:

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/s...rs-off-macarthur-taxiway-1.4379056

PC12Fan · Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:52 pm

Quoting FlyingFan18 (Reply 4):

With all due rspect, Southwest does have a reputation of putting the hammer down when they are on the ground.

Cubsrule · Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:00 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 6):
With all due rspect, Southwest does have a reputation of putting the hammer down when they are on the ground.

Sure, but is there any evidence that they leave the pavement any more than any other carrier? Overruns and runway excursions are easier to track than taxi incidents, and if we compare WN to, for instance, AA, WN would seem to compare favorably. In the past 15 years, WN has had BUR and MDW, while AA has had JAC, KIN and LIT.

PC12Fan · Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
Sure, but is there any evidence that they leave the pavement any more than any other carrier?

Not that I know of.

FlyPNS1 · Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:10 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 6):
With all due rspect, Southwest does have a reputation of putting the hammer down when they are on the ground.

Southwest does have this reputation, though I'd say you could turn it around the other way too. The legacy carriers have a tendency to taxi excessively slow...largely because it increases block times for pilots.

IAHFLYR · Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:10 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 2):
They taxi too fast.

We don't know, the taxiway could very well have suddenly taken a turn.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 6):
Southwest does have a reputation of putting the hammer down when they are on the ground

I wouldn't go so far as to say a hammer down, but from the years I have seen them moving around airports they move with a purpose unlike some other operators. Unsafe, not IMHO.

93Sierra · Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:54 pm

AA in particular is a snail as far as taxi speed goes, however I believe it has something to do with them not getting there numbers until they have pushed

jfklganyc · Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:00 pm

I have not evidence that they leave taxiways more than other carriers.

Take yourself for instance...if you drive fast or aggresively, the first thing your friends and family will discuss amongst themselves if you got into a bad accident

"You know he always drove too fast"
"I know, I always thought that too"
"Makes you wonder if its all worth it"
"He'll really need to slow down in the future"

Perception is reality in this business.

That's why we spend thousands of dollars and many minutes deicing when there are flurries falling

prosa · Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:28 pm

The headline at Gothamist makes the incident sound much worse than it was:

http://gothamist.com/2012/12/27/plan..._skids_off_runway_at_macarthur.php

There was no "skidding" involved.

Silver1SWA · Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:02 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
Perception is reality in this business.

In my opinion, it's a perception that stems from observed tendencies many years ago. Times have changed but unfortunately perception has yet to change as well.

SXDFC · Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
Yah, they're soooooooooooo unsafe...better ground them before someone gets killed!

You say this because they taxi too fast? Really? Although I do agree this is the second time this happened, far worse have happened to airlines, look at USAir back in the 1990's, they were loosing planes left and right. Maybe YOU need to re-think the term "unsafe"..

Aside from the US Airways Express DH8 and CR2, they are the only other carrier in town along with a bunch of GA planes, most of the time they are the only guys on the taxiway.

Silver1SWA · Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 15):
Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
Yah, they're soooooooooooo unsafe...better ground them before someone gets killed!

You say this because they taxi too fast? Really? Although I do agree this is the second time this happened, far worse have happened to airlines, look at USAir back in the 1990's, they were loosing planes left and right. Maybe YOU need to re-think the term "unsafe"..

Aside from the US Airways Express DH8 and CR2, they are the only other carrier in town along with a bunch of GA planes, most of the time they are the only guys on the taxiway.

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm.

captainmeeerkat · Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:35 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOY3Cc6XRU4

Is this a fast taxi and quick rolling takeoff? I'm sure it's not an indicator of the norm but here they appear to me moving quite quickly!

IAHFLYR · Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting Captainmeeerkat (Reply 17):
Is this a fast taxi and quick rolling takeoff?

I certainly don't think so. And that quick rolling takeoff was anything but quick IMHO.

soon7x7 · Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:51 pm

WN doesn't position themselves here @ ISP any faster than anyone else here including corporate. I fly them all the time out of here and have never felt taxi speed beyond normal for the circumstances. With all their take-off and landing cycles WN pilots execute in a day I feel they are some of the best in the business.

MesaFlyGuy · Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:20 pm

LOL Don't talk about our airport that way!

I am kinda surprised, but I have of this before so I'm not completely shocked. Last time I flew WN out of ISP we were at the runway in less than a minute, but if you've ever been to ISP, you know the proximity of the WN gates to runway 33L, so I wouldn't blame it on fast taxiing.

WN pilots are known to taxi a bit faster than others sometimes, but it has only caused an incident like 3 times so far this year. I don't think it's a huge deal. It just helps them a bit with their quick turnarounds and early arrivals.

[Edited 2012-12-28 02:56:13 by SA7700]

soon7x7 · Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:30 pm

Just went over to the site...appears as though the turn on Taxiway Sierra to the right was not accomplished. (Sierra makes a quick and sharp turn to the right then quickly intercepts taxiway Alpha to the left). The airframe is still in line w/ Sierra. The nose wheel buried up past the axle. (Much rain last night). In the dark with wet pavement this intersection is tricky and cannot be accomplished with any brisk rate of speed despite type aircraft. Feel bad for the crew. Went to work at the time, the weather was misty/ light rain, winds out of a generally north direction as it was vacillating between NW and NE. Given the wind taxiing on Sierra would have have given the aircraft a bit of an unwanted push in this case.

GentFromAlaska · Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 2):
They taxi too fast.

A better statement might have been they taxi too fast for the conditions. On all of my WN flights across the last fifteen or so years WN seems to taxi no faster than other air carriers I've flown except for maybe AS in rural Alaska.

As far as we know if could have been pilot or first officer unfamiliarity with the airport in combination with the weather. The NTSB report will be forthcoming.

soon7x7 · Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 23):
unfamiliarity with the airport in combination with the weather.

While ISP may be looked at as a small insignificant field, It has a complex area of intersecting taxiways/ runways in close proximity to each other near the accident site. So a crew member in adverse conditions, would not necessarily be aware of how tight the turn is at this location. As I stated above...even in a 172 with any kind of push by a 1/4' ing tail wind requires you to brake firmly before entering the turn. Not a good way to kick off the New Year for the crew sadly.

eastern747 · Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:57 pm

So how does one get the plane out, You can't get behind and pull it out, Lot's of lumber in front and pull, if the tractor is on concrete or just get the guy from "Airplane" and put the petal to the metal!

soon7x7 · Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:26 pm

Off load the fuel and everything else to make her lighter, imagine Boeing Team will advise on placement of harnesses cranes will use to lift so a firm base placed under the nose and left main and pull her out to the taxiway. I'm just guessing here but wonder if engine #1 sucked in crap...if so is the procedure an automatic engine teardown being this close to soil on the menu?...anyone. Think this airframe will be here at ISP for a while.

Free Peanuts!

AirframeAS · Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:34 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
Yah, they're soooooooooooo unsafe...better ground them before someone gets killed!

Um, no one suggested that on this thread that they are unsafe. Sure, they taxi fast and have the reputation for doing so. What is your point??

MesaFlyGuy · Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:43 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 27):

Looks a lot worse than I thought.

I'm gonna try an run over to ISP and see it when I get back to NY in a few days if it's still there.

skycub · Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:11 am

It's funny because as soon as I read THIS:

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 26):
So how does one get the plane out

Before I even finished EASTERN747's entire reply, I was already had THIS in my mind:

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 26):
just get the guy from "Airplane"

LOL

"Mr. Patroni... Mr. Joe Patroni... please pick up a white courtesy phone for an important message." LOL.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 27):
Free Peanuts!

Okay... THAT was hilarious!

Jpax · Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:22 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 27):
Think this airframe will be here at ISP for a while.

Unless there's damage or contributing circumstances we can't see, I imagine it'll be out within a day or two.

e38 · Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9), "The legacy carriers have a tendency to taxi excessively slow...largely because it increases block times for pilots."

Doug, that statement is 100 percent false. Do you have any proof or is there anyway you can back up your statement?
Taxi speed at the legacy carriers is dictated by Standard Operating Procedures, environmental conditions, airport layout, and other factors, none of which include increased block times.

e38

winsox28 · Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:44 am

I took Southwest from BWI to BDL today. We did taxi rather quickly, but it was good to see a veteran Capt and FO instead of the young pilots I have seen on USAir regiional flights!

Silver1SWA · Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
Yah, they're soooooooooooo unsafe...better ground them before someone gets killed!

Um, no one suggested that on this thread that they are unsafe. Sure, they taxi fast and have the reputation for doing so. What is your point??

Uh, if you read the reply 3 posts above yours, you will see he explained his point.

Hint: IT WAS SARCASM.

GentFromAlaska · Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:11 am

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 25):
So how does one get the plane ou

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 27):
Off load the fuel and everything else to make her lighter, imagine Boeing Team will advise on placement of harnesses cranes will use to lift so a firm base placed under the nose and left main and pull her out to the taxiway

As stated I would imagine it would be some sort of strap(s) on a crane or mechanical hoist mirroring the way they would lift a larger vessel out of the water and transport it to a cradle.

DocLightning · Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:06 am

I believe it's N902WN and another A.nutter who works for WN at ISP posted a pic of her on the tarmac, so I think they moved the aircraft back.

mcdu · Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:10 am

Didn't we just have this same discussion about WN in DEN? Does anyone have a diagram of the location where this crew put in the mud? Heard pax report say they were cleared for takeoff. Maybe a case of too much thrust in a turn onto painted surface. The nose wheel will lose traction and the airplane goes in the direction of the thrust line. WN may want to consider a winter ground ops course for its pilots.

LONGisland89 · Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:13 am

Aircraft involved was N718SW. Going to take a drive by ISP to see if she's still in the mud.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 39):

I'll try to upload an aerial view. There was no skidding or veering. The aircraft just simply kept going straight when the taxiway turned about 45 degrees to the right.

[Edited 2012-12-27 18:16:00]

DocLightning · Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:14 am

Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 40):
N718SW

I stand corrected. I don't know if she's been pulled clear, then.

silentbob · Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:18 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 18):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOY3Cc6XRU4

Is this a fast taxi and quick rolling takeoff? I'm sure it's not an indicator of the norm but here they appear to me moving quite quickly!

Yes, it is a fast taxi. They are supposed to taxi no faster than a brisk walking pace. That is much faster than most humans can run. They only get in trouble for it when it contributes to an incident, as in this case.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 18):
I certainly don't think so.

You would be wrong

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
Um, no one suggested that on this thread that they are unsafe. Sure, they taxi fast and have the reputation for doing so. What is your point??

Actually, taxiing at too high of a speed is unsafe. There are a number of degrees though, it's not as likely to cause death or damage to equipment as some other potential bad habits.

BMI727 · Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:20 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 2):
They taxi too fast.

I dont know how they get away with as SOP

My wild guess is that Southwest 737 pilots don't taxi any faster than other 737 pilots, but it's just our perception. Smaller planes are more maneuverable on the ground, some RJ pilots really scoot along too. Southwest's pilots are probably about typical, but don't have a fleet of widebodies awkwardly trundling around airports to balance out the comparative speed of 737 sized planes. Also, and this is less true these days, but the fact that for a long time Southwest flew to many underserved or secondary airports probably allowed them to both move faster on the ground (particularly near terminals where we best see them) and just have to taxi for less time, which contributes to the perception that WN pilots are speed demons.

comairguycvg · Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:35 am

It's the annual WN off in the grass. In this case, multiple times annually.

AWACSooner · Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:36 am

Quoting comairguycvg (Reply 46):
It's the annual WN off in the grass. In this case, multiple times annually.

Maybe their next theme plane can be a Holstein

71Zulu · Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:01 am

From what is posted on avherald, the crew was instructed to taxi to runway 6 via taxiways Sierra and Alpha, where Sierra veers right just before Alpha, the aircraft skidded and went into the grass.

http://avherald.com/h?article=45b2f894&opt=0

dragon-wings · Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:16 am

If you were going to go down to Islip (like me) to see the plane stuck in the mud don't. I just saw on News 12 Long Island that the plane is out of the mud. They even showed a video of the plane getting pulled out of the mud. The plane is probably parked at the Liberty Jet hangar now.

93Sierra · Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:41 am

AA pilots I believe don't get there numbers until they push and are programming and setting things up for departure where as the WN flows are done pre push. Was there ice on the ground they could have hit?

MesaFlyGuy · Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:52 am

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 50):

There may have been. The weather wasn't too nice here last night and it was COOOOLD, so you never know. But, the more probable excuse for the incident is a tight turn and maybe taxiing a little fast.

soon7x7 · Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:50 am

It was 47 degrees when I went to ISP to work, that was 6:15 AM. No ice existed anywhere and I didn't see skid marks...just someone that didn't slow up for the turn from Sierra to Alpha. The crew was quoted as advising LI ground" We just made your day a little more interesting", " we just taxied off of Sierra onto the grass". The winds aided in a bit of a quartering tailwind push. The Reg#, N718SW...

so close, yet so far...

barney captain · Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:28 am

Quoting silentbob (Reply 44):
They are supposed to taxi no faster than a brisk walking pace. That is much faster than most humans can run.

Completely incorrect. While that my be true for GA aircraft, our SOP is quite clear; 30kts max on a straight taxiway - like the one in the video. A "brisk walking pace" is roughly 3-4kts - absurdly slow. At that speed, a not-at-all uncommon 2 mile taxi would take roughly 30 minutes.

71Zulu · Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:08 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 53):
The crew was quoted as advising LI ground" We just made your day a little more interesting", " we just taxied off of Sierra onto the grass".

That is true, just heard the clip on liveatc.net.

For some reason, Avherald is still reporting the crew said "skidded" but they said no such thing.

Passedv1 · Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:05 am

Southwest Crews on average, taxi much much faster than any other airline. This is not a criticism from lay people or from an ignorant media, this is criticism from peers that do the same work in the same type of airplanes in the same airport environments.

Southwest on average taxis much faster than anyone, much faster than the FAA standard of a "brisk-walk", and in my opinion bring the overall safety margin down...and yes, this culture has already killed people. Just because it happened to somebody else to (i.e. AA), doesn't make it okay.

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