huxrules
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:42 am

It was going very fast in that video. I wonder if it was trying to do a go around after a brake malfunction.
 
bralo20
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting sulley (Reply 75):
Here's a decent video (in Russian) from Vremya (Channel One - Russia) News:

http://www.1tv.ru/news/social/223201

Cleanup starts quick in Russia. I've been to incidents (mostly fatal car crashes but also the Kalitta overrun in BRU) as a fire / police photographer where it took longer before they even started thinking about the clean up, let alone hire the cranes, transport, etc... to move the pieces.
 
spacecadet
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:23 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 98):
I might be wrong, but I'd put the speed closer to 60 than 120.

I'd wager you are wrong - I wouldn't try to peg a specific speed but I'd be very surprised if that plane is not traveling faster than 60mph in the video. Size makes for a bit of an optical illusion (large objects look like they're moving more slowly), but I watch airliners take off and land across a road I travel on on a daily basis (I live about a mile from the end of the 4/22's at JFK and I commute past the airport) and this plane looks to be going about as fast as an average landing airliner *before* touchdown. I'm sure it wasn't quite - there had to be *some* loss of speed - but it is going very fast for a runway overrun. That nosewheel shoots straight out of there and across the road at probably 60mph just on its own, and that's *after* being slowed by the impact.

If the land was flat off the end of the runway, this thing might have traveled another 2,000 feet before stopping. It wasn't even close to being stopped when it ran off the end of the runway.

This had to be either a major brake failure or serious pilot error. I can't remember another overrun due to brake failure like this, although given what other people have said about a previous incident with the Tu-204, I guess you can't discount it. We have seen overruns similar in appearance to this one caused by pilot error, such as the TAM 3054 crash (high speed overrun in bad weather). Thankfully this plane did not have many people on board and there were no major obstacles off the end of the runway, nor did there seem to be a lot of fuel on board to ignite.

[Edited 2012-12-29 21:27:31]
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Starlionblue
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:53 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 91):

I am learning new things everyday. So, this has a three man cockpit crew? Do all of the 204's have a three man crew? I could have sworn the plane was modeled to be similar to a 757? Can anyone give me general comparisons of the 204 to the 757 stats?
Quoting F9animal (Reply 96):
Weird! I just got done looking at pictures of the flight deck on Red Wings Airlines 204, and it showed a total of 3 flight crew members. And it says there were a total of three crew members in the cockpit in this crash. Are all the 204's in Red Wings fleet 3 crews, or do some aircraft have 2?

Welcome to Russian union rules. Many airliners had to have a flight engineer AND a navigator until recently. Basically they take a two man design and remake it for three man operation. Ansett Australia asked for an F/E position on the 767, and Boeing made it a three man plane.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:05 am

Pictures of the doomed aircraft, taken just before its departure from PED:

   http://zkracovatko.cz/3SZYLr

   http://zkracovatko.cz/aoKuL9

arrival to PED yesterday morning (DEC 29): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJRkSt6Aq8w

[Edited 2012-12-29 22:06:43]
 
F9Animal
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:06 am

Hang on a second!!! The picture you posted which I will copy and paste below. What is that coming from the center of the main gears? It looks like a fluid coming out, or something hanging on each main. Not familiar with this plane, so maybe I am alarmed for no reason?

http://www.planes.cz/cs/photo/115810...d-wings-rwz-wz-pardubice-ped-lkpd/

Also, do we know which aircraft it was that over ran with engines not reversing?

[Edited 2012-12-29 23:07:22]
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MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:20 am

I find it amazing that this particular aircraft had been videotaped, photographed, and caught on a dash cam when it crashed! This is, what seems to me, like a weird coincidence. Not In the sense that the plane could have been sabotaged or fewred to crash, but just that how many times is a plane videotaped and photographed on the day it crashes and then caight on camera when it does!
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AirPacific747
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:17 am

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 106):

It seems to be normal practice in Russia to place a camera on your car. Maybe due to insurance policies?
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:27 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 105):
Hang on a second!!! The picture you posted which I will copy and paste below. What is that coming from the center of the main gears? It looks like a fluid coming out, or something hanging on each main. Not familiar with this plane, so maybe I am alarmed for no reason?

Not sure. Both "streaks" look too symetric to be leaks of some sort. See how they start with wide cylindric shape, then there is a small bump half way down... Not sure what these could be. Here are a few photos where all of them have "it":


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © JetPix


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Photo © Roberto gorini


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dmitriy Pichugin


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Yury Stepanov


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alex Beltyukov - RuSpotters Team

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spacecadet
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:35 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 105):
Also, do we know which aircraft it was that over ran with engines not reversing?

64049. This plane was 64047. I wouldn't put too much stock in the numbers being so close together; only 62 of these planes exist in total, and I'd guess Red Wings doesn't have *too* many of those 62, so the numbers are going to be fairly close no matter what. But it's not the same plane.
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mandala499
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:50 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 96):
I might be wrong, but I'd put the speed closer to 60 than 120.

It is somewhere in between.
1. it maintained pitch as it leapt onto the embankment.
2. The trajectory was increasingly down (after taking to account the moving camera).
3. The distance it leapt and the altitude difference between where it leapt and where it hit the embankment, isn't too great either.

So, aircraft was below it's Vstall for that config, if faster, spoilers must have been deployed otherwise the trajectory would be flatter. The aerodynamic effect (nose-up tendency) of the spoiler deployment must have been present, or the elevators still had authority... since there was no nose-down tumbling movement. I don't know about this type, but in other aircraft this would have to be faster than 60kts, but probably around 80-90kts ish... if it's 120 or above... well... won't make sense.

Mandala499
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:56 am

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 106):
This is, what seems to me, like a weird coincidence. Not In the sense that the plane could have been sabotaged or fewred to crash, but just that how many times is a plane videotaped and photographed on the day it crashes and then caight on camera when it does!

The explanation is actually quite prosaic: PED is a sleepy, provincial airport with mixed military/civilian ops. Passenger traffic during the winter consists almost exclusively of charter flights from Russia. Russian charter airlines often use PED as a cheaper alternative to PRG
End of the year is always a very busy period for PED since a lot of Russians choose PRG as a place to spend the New Year's Eve and their Christmas, see list of upcoming flights to PED: http://www.lkpd.info/expected.php
Therefore late December/early January is always a heyday for the local community of spotters. If I wanted to be cynical, I'd say that given the low traffic volume, literally ANYTHING that comes to PED - on weekends in particular - is caught on camera and/or video... multiple times: http://www.lkpd.info/search.php?airport=a1
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:14 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 102):
This had to be either a major brake failure or serious pilot error.

They had a long runway, and the plane still did not decelerate much. And hundreds of meters of field to slow down some more. Maybe they had lost both reversers _and_ brakes. Or maybe they had decelerated but were now indeed speeding up and trying to go around, with the field perhaps slowing them down they did not get airborne.

Are there any common cause failures that would prevent reverser and brake from working? Aircraft in wrong configuration?
 
migair54
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:27 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 105):
Hang on a second!!! The picture you posted which I will copy and paste below. What is that coming from the center of the main gears? It looks like a fluid coming out, or something hanging on each main. Not familiar with this plane, so maybe I am alarmed for no reason?

Can it be a ground contact for static electricity discharge?? like the ones are usually in the wings and tail??

Apparently one of the previous overruns of this plane type was confirmed as a brake malfunction in OVB, and Tupolev was warned about the situation, let´s see what´s going out here after the investigation.

It´s kind of weird that a plane with only 12 on board can´t be stopped in a long runway, Captain had more than 3.000 hours on the plane, so he was not new on it.
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:44 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 110):
So, aircraft was below it's Vstall for that config, if faster, spoilers must have been deployed otherwise the trajectory would be flatter. The aerodynamic effect (nose-up tendency) of the spoiler deployment must have been present, or the elevators still had authority... since there was no nose-down tumbling movement. I don't know about this type, but in other aircraft this would have to be faster than 60kts, but probably around 80-90kts ish... if it's 120 or above... well... won't make sense.

Interesting.

I had a look at the video again. I wanted to see if there's a way to measure the speed.

First, I attempted to measure the speed of the tire. At approximately 10.6s into the video, the tire is roughly at the right side of the road. At roughly 11.9 it hits the car. By the way, if you go frame by frame you'll see that the tire disappears into the car more or less completely upon impact. Crazy...

Anyway, there are four lanes, and the car that was hit was travelling on the rightmost one. Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow%E2%80%93Saint_Petersburg_motorway, some highway lane width in Russia is 3.75 meters. Requirements and widths differ from highway to highway, I'll use a conservative number 3.5 meters. On US highways, shoulders should be 3.05 meters (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_standards), but I'll assume 2 meters again to be conservative.

The car that was hit veered to the left before impact, at 10.8s its own tires are on the left lane marking. The car was small, so I'll assume there was 2 meters to the right lane marking.

This leaves 2+3*3.5+2 = 14.5 meters to the right side of the highway. Time was 1.3s, i.e., horizontal speed was 11.2 m/s, or about 22 knots. Not so fast. Of course this tells very little of the speed of the aircraft, though it was probably more than 22 knots.

I'm also trying to see if there's a way to measure the speed of the aircraft, but it is difficult. It appears only in the corner of the video from about 9.15s to 9.75s, before disappearing behind the embankment and then exploding into pieces after that on about 10.25s onwards. But I have no frame of reference for distances.
 
aloges
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:16 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 113):
Can it be a ground contact for static electricity discharge??

exactly my thoughts

You can see the same kind of ground strap on this Tu-154:

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Photo © Arkadiy Kataev

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northstar80
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:22 am

Regarding the video, I am shocked to see the triple seats flying and then falling in the middle of the highway. I remember seeing somewhere that the seats are produced to almost never break loose from the aircraft during an accident.

Luckily the flight was empty and there were no people on those seats...
 
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garpd
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:44 am

More footage, not of the crash but immediate aftermath: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=13e_1356848408
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Hywel
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:45 pm

Two more photos have emerged of the aircraft just before touchdown at VKO - literally 20-30 seconds before it overran the runway  

Link 1
Link 2

[Edited 2012-12-30 04:45:28]
 
David L
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 118):
Two more photos have emerged of the aircraft just before touchdown at VKO

And one of the big questions is: where (and how) did it touch down? Hopefully it won't be long before that information comes to light.

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 116):
Regarding the video, I am shocked to see the triple seats flying and then falling in the middle of the highway. I remember seeing somewhere that the seats are produced to almost never break loose from the aircraft during an accident.

True, but if the aircraft breaks up I think you can expect one or two rows of seats to become detached.
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:30 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 118):
Two more photos have emerged of the aircraft just before touchdown at VKO

In the second photo the aircraft appears to be pretty high still, maybe at 100 feet. And this is at a place that looks like a normal section of the runway, not something on or before the piano keys.

Looking at the map at https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...182&spn=0.011732,0.030727&t=h&z=15... and there are aircraft and buildings behind the runway. If the photo is taken from west to east, it must still be within the first parts of the runway. If the photo is taken from east to west, maybe we are looking at the big plane parking area on the west side of the runway, which is a little bit further down the runway, maybe 1/3 or 1/2 of the runway already used at that point. Does anyone recognize the views from the photographs?
 
B747forever
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 118):
Two more photos have emerged of the aircraft just before touchdown at VKO - literally 20-30 seconds before it overran the runway

Wow. Is there any other crash that has been so well documented? You have photos of the aircraft at the origin airport, video of it crashing and photos of it moments before touch down.
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Horstroad
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 120):

I'd say it's about 30-50ft and the photo shows the first touchdown zone marker between the piano keys and the aiming point (photo was taken from north to south). doesn't look unusual to me.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 118):
Two more photos have emerged of the aircraft just before touchdown at VKO - literally 20-30 seconds before it overran the runway  

Link 1
Link 2

No flames, thus one can once again dismiss most eye witness accounts as false.
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bralo20
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:15 pm

Belgian media are reporting that the incident was probably caused by a failing brake system and that the pilots tried everything to slow the plane down. There's no source in the report but it states that was determined after the first analyse of the FDR/CVR.

Belgian (French) source: http://www.rtbf.be/info/societe/deta...sur-le-crash-du-tupolev?id=7899764
UK source: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article3643467.ece
 
migair54
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting Bralo20 (Reply 124):
Belgian media are reporting that the incident was probably caused by a failing brake system and that the pilots tried everything to slow the plane down. There's no source in the report but it states that was determined after the first analyse of the FDR/CVR.

As I previously said, that was the cause of runway overrun in OVB not long ago, so i´m sure it will be check carefully, it was Ra-64049 in that occasion. This will cause a deep investigation and we will see some consequences soon.
 
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anfromme
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:37 pm

Quoting Bralo20 (Reply 124):
Belgian media are reporting that the incident was probably caused by a failing brake system and that the pilots tried everything to slow the plane down. There's no source in the report but it states that was determined after the first analyse of the FDR/CVR.

Some German media are reporting the same thing, but I'd take such early reports of definite causes with more than a grain of salt, to be honest, as there was hardly time to do a proper analysis.
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rfields5421
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:57 pm

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 116):
I remember seeing somewhere that the seats are produced to almost never break loose from the aircraft during an accident.

You are correct, but this aircraft fuselage broke cleanly in the passenger compartment area - so the floor to which the seats were attached came apart. The seat attachments probably didn't fail, the floor to which it is attached was destroyed.
 
rj777
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:01 pm

Looking at that 2nd photo of the approach/landing, it looked to me like he was coming in a little high.
 
womenbeshoppin
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting rj777 (Reply 128):
Looking at that 2nd photo of the approach/landing, it looked to me like he was coming in a little high.

Give me a break. You are familiar with landing an aircraft at this particular moscow airport?
 
prosa
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:26 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 117):
More footage, not of the crash but immediate aftermath: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=13e_1356848408

It looks like the highway is still open in the opposite direction and you even can see a car go by in the lanes where the debris lies.
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zanl188
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 125):
As I previously said, that was the cause of runway overrun in OVB not long ago, so i´m sure it will be check carefully, it was Ra-64049 in that occasion. This will cause a deep investigation and we will see some consequences soon.

AvHerald is reporting it as well....

http://avherald.com/h?article=45ad34b5&opt=1


Sounds like the earlier overrun may have been due to lack of lube on a landing gear microswitch.

Would a failure of the air/ground mode switch on the TU-204 cause problems for brakes, thrust reversers, and spoilers?
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Gonzalo
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:51 pm

Ok, this seems probably one of the most extensively documented plane crashes ( except maybe for the ones made on purpose in the desert ) with many pictures of the plane at departing airport, final approach, and actual crash / aftermath.
But despite all this amazing ( and painful images ), I think all the efforts of some fellow members here to know the speeds, configuration and all, are very kind, but useless. We have pretty much undamaged the section where the CVR and FDR are located, and should be very precise information recorded, and although the *real numbers* will not be available for the public in a long time, some day we should have access to them.

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spacecadet
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 119):
And one of the big questions is: where (and how) did it touch down? Hopefully it won't be long before that information comes to light.

It has already come to light: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...nding/story-fn3dxix6-1226545506612

I don't vouch for the accuracy of the conclusion that "bad brakes" were to blame, but the relevant quote to your question is "The plane touched down in the proper landing area but for some reason was unable to stop on the strip" according to Russian authorities.

Here's an earlier story with a headline that reaches an entirely different conclusion, but it includes the second part of that same quote: http://www.euronews.com/2012/12/30/i...pilot-error-for-russian-jet-crash/

For those wondering how fast the plane was going, there's not an exact number given but the same guy says "It then careered at high speed and crashed into a radar beacon which it destroyed and then kept on going….”

So it was not a low speed overrun, it was a high speed overrun after touching down in the proper landing area. It used probably 6,000-7,000 feet of runway, traveled another 1,000 feet or so off the end of the runway and hit this embankment still at high speed. Something is very wrong there.

I realize there was an earlier incident with some sort of brake failure in the Tu-204 but a) it seems like the fix was not that difficult, and should have been done already, and b) I'd just find it incredibly coincidental that we'd have no Tu-204 incidents like this for several years, then suddenly have two identical ones in about a week, one of them fatal. It's possible, but it seems more likely that there were other factors involved, or that the cause is just completely different.

I keep thinking back to the TAM crash, which was a mystery for a long time and turned out to ultimately be a combination of pilot action, a technical fault and software design; the plane's auto-throttle and auto-spoiler software wasn't designed to act in the way the pilots expected in a situation with one reverser out (though it was documented and trained for, so ultimately it was pilot error). It wouldn't surprise me to see a combination of multiple factors here as well when all is said and done. I wouldn't put much stock in any of the conclusions being reached in the media already.
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tp1040
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:19 pm

From the first link above.

"He [Lebedev-Red Wings owner] also suggested that traffic controllers' initial refusal to authorise landing - requiring the plane to complete several circles over Vnukovo in bad weather - may have been a contributing factor."



Hasn't is been refuted that the plane circled?
 
manny
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:21 pm

Here is Youtube footage of Moscow plane crash:

http://youtu.be/In607kR4HpQ
 
spacecadet
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:24 pm

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 134):
Hasn't is been refuted that the plane circled?

I've seen radar tracks that certainly suggest it has been. I think one was posted in this thread.

He's the owner of the airline, though, not an investigator. I'm sure he has more info than any of us do but on the other hand, he's probably not a technical guy and he's not really bound by any sort of rules with regard to the accuracy of anything he says. I put more stock in the quote I actually posted, which come from someone in the air transport ministry.
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shufflemoomin
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 62):

Someone captured the crash from the inside of his car:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...yS5o4

Wait, in that video, am I seeing things or did the car in front take full brunt of an aircraft wheel into the side of the vehicle and just keep driving!? I can't imagine what one of those wheels must weigh.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 114):
This leaves 2+3*3.5+2 = 14.5 meters to the right side of the highway. Time was 1.3s, i.e., horizontal speed was 11.2 m/s, or about 22 knots. Not so fast. Of course this tells very little of the speed of the aircraft, though it was probably more than 22 knots.

The aircraft tire hit the top of that building before hitting the car. I suspect that would have slowed the speed down quite a bit.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 110):
It is somewhere in between.
1. it maintained pitch as it leapt onto the embankment.
2. The trajectory was increasingly down (after taking to account the moving camera).
3. The distance it leapt and the altitude difference between where it leapt and where it hit the embankment, isn't too great either.

I suspect it was well above 60. Just based on the incredible amount of earth being thrown from the side of the freeway, and how the cockpit was sheared that way says alot. Also, the injuries being reported would I think be caused by a much higher speed.

Quoting Bralo20 (Reply 124):
Belgian media are reporting that the incident was probably caused by a failing brake system and that the pilots tried everything to slow the plane down. There's no source in the report but it states that was determined after the first analyse of the FDR/CVR.

This could very well be good information. I am sure the moment they got the FDR/CVR out, it was being analyzed almost immediately. I hope they find out and share what they learn as it happens!

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 108):
Not sure. Both "streaks" look too symetric to be leaks of some sort. See how they start with wide cylindric shape, then there is a small bump half way down... Not sure what these could be. Here are a few photos where all of them have "it":

Thanks for that!
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F9Animal
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:49 pm

Sadly, a 5th crewmember has died. They have released pics of those who died on Red Wings Twitter and facebook pages.
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PHX787
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:51 pm

I read a report in the paper this morning that says the EU may ban flights on a TU-204 until this breaks issue is worked out. I ran a search on Google and couldn't find anything along those lines. Anyone have more confident reports?

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 62):
Someone captured the crash from the inside of his car:
Quoting Skydrol (Reply 66):
Dang, with all of the Russian car accident / road rage videos on YouTube uploaded from so many Russian drivers with dash cameras, but who would expect capturing an event like this live? And while semi-truck wheels have been known to fly through the air into cars, who would expect a flying airplane wheel to knock a car into the guardrail?

Out of all of the Russian dash-cam videos, this is the most haunting.
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affirmative
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:12 pm

Considering the plane was empty and wind was not too bad the approach speed must have been slightly lower than normal. Looking at the pictures that are allegedly from the moments before touchdown they seem to be using full or at least close to full flaps which indicates a normal approach. I know nothing about surface abrasion at the time but being an international airport one would expect fair grip with those temperatures. Even with no brakes and no reversers but working spoilers what retardation would be expected? My guessing would put an approach speed of maybe 120-125kt, spoiler deployment would lose maybe 25-30kt and friction 10kt which would put the final speed at about 80-90kt (= more than 100mph)..

What surprises me is why they didn't abort and went around..

It will be interesting to read what the report will uncover..
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:25 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 118):

Taking the pics from the links, and using Google translate to read the text, (as well as expected), they compare the height of the 204 to a tu134 at approximately the same position along the runway.

It does appear that the 204 did land long.

http://russianplanes.net/images/to95000/094177.jpg

http://russianplanes.net/images/to94000/093669.jpg

http://russianplanes.net/images/to95000/094178.jpg

Here is what I assume is the comparison between where the 134 was at 5m height and the 204 at approx the same height.

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5625/166530881.1/0_b66eb_e6a94bf_XXL
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bueb0g
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 144):
It does appear that the 204 did land long.

No it doesn't. That last picture you showed there is taken from the threshold, basically - those are the first piano keys in the frame. They landed in the TDZ, this has been confirmed by MAK from the FDR readout.
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Viscount724
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 107):
Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 106):

It seems to be normal practice in Russia to place a camera on your car. Maybe due to insurance policies?

A couple of recent items on "dashcams" in Russia.
http://www.rferl.org/content/dash-ca...nd-scams-car-crashes/24780355.html
http://www.animalnewyork.com/2012/russian-dashcam/
 
rfields5421
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 133):
For those wondering how fast the plane was going,

We were speaking about the speed of the aircraft at the time of the final impact with the uphill embankment on the edge of the roadway. The aircraft is shown in the video as an intact fuselage with realtively little nose damage until it makes that final hit.
From dash cam video - RedWings aircraft just before impact


I'm not sure how fast the plane was moving when it left the end of the runway - which according to Google Earth is 870 ft from the piano keys on the end of the runway to the final impact poiint. The structure we see over the highway holds the approach lights for a landing from the south over the roadway.

There is about 120-140 feet distance according to Google Earth from the airport property at the height of the approach lights to the edge of the structure holding the lights. The aircraft dropped several feet in height in that short distance, however contributing to the downward path of the aircraft, the ground between the runway end and the roadway slopes down about 10 or 15 feet in elevation in the approx 750 feet of distance.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 137):
Wait, in that video, am I seeing things or did the car in front take full brunt of an aircraft wheel into the side of the vehicle and just keep driving!?

The car is hit by the nose gear and slams into inside guardrail and begins to slow quickly. It doesn't keep going. The car slows as it crosses roadway to come to a stop against the guard rail against the outside of the roadway right at the end of the video. The car with the camera slows more quickly because it ran over a set of seats, probably puncturing several of the tires.

[Edited 2012-12-30 13:56:32]

[Edited 2012-12-30 14:40:58]
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4285
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:21 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 145):

Lucky for that car that the wheel hit the top of that structure first! I suspect that slowed the tire quite a bit!
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 143):

Here is a link to a video of a 204, (perhaps the same one), landing in summer at the airport. If you look at the 48 second point, you will see the plane at the same position along the runway as in the second 204 pic.

In the pic he is higher and has yet to flare. Since we don't know his speed at the time, it would be difficult to tell exactly where he touched down.


http://russianplanes.net/id94179
What the...?
 
a380heavy
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:38 pm

Firstly let me pass on my sincere condolences to the families of those who perished in this tragic accident.

It's safe to day that aircraft accidents take place when there are usually a number of contributing factors.

In the second photo of the Redwings 204 landing the aircraft seems to be in a slight nose down attitude with the piano keys in view so it is reasonable to assume it did land long.

The aircraft is still yet to flare so I assume touchdown was some way beyond the ideal point. If the crew only managed a shallow angle during the flare there wouldn't have been much aerodynamic braking to bleed off speed. This assumption would lead to excess speed upon landing with a reduced distance available for the deceleration.

It was reported that the weather conditions were light snow at the time of landing which I can't imagine would be too demanding for a captain and first officer with a combined 25,000 hours under their belts - especially pilots who are used to the Russian climate and who are in command of a modern airliner.

Were the thrust reversers operable? If so, how much wheel braking would be required on this length of runway - assuming touchdown was not long and the aircraft wasn't
travelling too fast at the point of landing?
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flood
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:40 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 147):
Here is a link to a video of a 204, (perhaps the same one), landing in summer at the airport. If you look at the 48 second point, you will see the plane at the same position along the runway as in the second 204 pic.


Interesting comparison, thanks.

http://russianplanes.net/images/to95000/094178.jpg

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