torontofly
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:43 pm

Hi everyone!

This is my first post on this forum, although I follow it for several years. I just want to contribute to the discussion that helps identify the causes of this accident. I attempted to compare two landings.

Picture 1 is taken from http://russianplanes.net/ID94178
Picture 2 is taken from (approx 15 sec) http://russianplanes.net/id94179

And this is how these two landings look when you put them together



You can see the difference in pitch angle and altitude at the same location.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:25 am

Brake malfunction on dual (I guess) independent systems with no malfunction indications to the crew? I'm not saying it didn't happen, but if it did wouldn't that indicate some rather severe design and/or maintenance deficiencies?

Quoting torontofly (Reply 150):
You can see the difference in pitch angle and altitude at the same location.

Welcome to A.nut!

The altitude difference is clear of course. However the pitch attitude difference is due to the fact that the plane in the right hand shot is flaring while the one on the left has not started the flare (too high).
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torontofly
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:55 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 151):
Welcome to A.nut!


Thanks a lot!

To me, it looks like that thrust reversers and ground spoilers were deployed approximately at the middle of RWY length. The remaining distance (approx. 1500m) was enough to complete landing safely.
 
tp1040
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:03 am

Comparing other photos of other flights to this one can make for a long day. Camera angles, lens, position, height can trick the eye. In the end, it doesn't share much real information to this accident.

As stated, the pilot touched down in the correct location and still was traveling at a substantial speed when he left the runway.

What happened at touchdown and beyond will be revealed as more information is released.

All sorts of possibilities involving different systems. But not stopping in 2 miles indicates a serious failure of systems designed to slow down the aircraft.
 
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Horstroad
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:21 am

Quoting torontofly (Reply 150):
You can see the difference in pitch angle and altitude at the same location.

the aircraft is about 50ft above the first landing zone marker before the aiming point. with a 3° glide path and considering the flare, the aircraft should touch down well between the first and second landing zone marker behind the aiming point, which should give enough runway (about 8000ft of paved surface left)

though the pich angle seems a bit nose down. maybe he was too fast?
 
awthompson
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:22 am

Despite what some officials have allegedly stated, it does appear (in my opinion - which I am entitled to hold and express) that this accident aircraft landed longer than ideal. If definitely within the touchdown zone, it was certainly at or near the end of it and we know what is said about the usefulness of runway behind you. Add any other problem or distraction and you have an accident starting to take shape.

The piano keys by the way are NOT in view in the second photo - I can only see touchdown zone markers with the aircraft yet to flare. Remember also that this aircraft is empty/light and so likely drifted quite some distance before finally touching down, if not bouncing a time or two. Most of us pilots know how hard it is to get a light/empty aircraft to 'settle' on landing. (For what it is worth, flight radar show 143 knots on late final.)

Why also are some officials already alleging pilot error? There is little else they could have seen to make them give such a prognosis so early.
 
Cactus105
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:15 am

Quoting horstroad (Reply 154):
maybe he was too fast?

  
I REALLY hate to speculate, but that was my first thought upon seeing the photo. Only A handful of crew on board would make for a light airplane though, so a "bit fast" may be correct for the weight of the aircraft during this particular landing, but I am sure he wasn't much faster than a normal approach with an aircraft full of people.

Again, like I said, I hate to speculate, and I also do not this aircraft at all. For example, the airbus 320 series has a very high angle of attack, even prior to flare (especially on the 321, and when companies opt to use flap settings other than FULL), whereas other aircraft don't have such a big angle. Approach angle, whether it be before or during flare, has everything to do with weight and therefore approach speed..

Now, I am not wiling to speculate on whether or not he landed hot, or long, because both of those things happen regularly, all the time, with all aircraft types. But with this aircraft, I think it is safe to say that Regardless of touchdown point, or speed (unless Ridiculously fast or long), they should have been able to stop on this runway with such a light a/c. Assuming all systems were functioning... We will have to wait and see what went on. You don't know unless you were there...
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Btblue
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:28 am

I'm looking at the pictures and there seems to be a fair amount of blurring of planes in the background (compared to the picture of the TU134)... I'm thinking he's going at a considerable speed.

Seeing as this was a positioning flight after dropping tourists off, feasible that an error was made by the pilot in that he calculated for a heavier landing (having landed previously with pax) therefore requiring more thrust when in fact the aircraft was empty of PAX? This would result in higher speed, greater height above the threshold and the reason he has full flaps?
 
spacecadet
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:33 am

Quoting btblue (Reply 157):
there seems to be a fair amount of blurring of planes in the background

Darker day (slower shutter speed), smaller sensor, different lens, who knows. You can't judge anything by comparing pictures taken in uncontrolled conditions like this. Lots of things can blur a background in one photo and not in another.

This is a 10,040 foot runway. The altitude in the shot of the accident flight appears to be about 20-30 feet. Assuming a final descent of 250fpm, it would take about 5 seconds to touch down from the photo taken of this accident. Assuming a landing speed of around 120 knots, that would eat up about 1,000 feet of runway. That's not insignificant but again, that's 1,000 feet of a 10,040 foot runway. And this plane was still traveling at a "high speed" when it hit the embankment, which is almost 1,000 feet beyond the end of that 10,040 foot runway. You're still talking about a plane going what appears by the *low* estimates here to be going about 60 knots after traveling about 1 1/2 miles on the ground.

And when you talk about potential landing speeds with an empty plane, don't forget about *braking* speeds with an empty plane. It takes a lot less runway to brake an empty plane than a full one, yet still this one ran off at high speed.

I think it's difficult to escape the conclusion that for whatever reason, this plane didn't brake properly after landing. It does not appear to be a case of a plane landing long, braking hard and just running out of runway.

Going from that to saying it was "bad brakes" as the media has done is a jump in logic that I'm not prepared to make yet, without other evidence. But from what I can see so far, the evidence we do have points to it being a fairly normal touchdown - maybe not 100% ideal, but not dangerously long (this according to the Russian authorities themselves) - followed by a lack of braking. If that's the case, then the question is just technical fault or action of the pilots. But I don't think you look at some other incident and assume it must automatically be the same situation here - I would think being aware of the previous braking problem would actually make it *less* likely to happen again right now, unless there was something about the fix itself that was either conceived or applied improperly. But it could be something completely unrelated.

I just don't really see any evidence for the "landing long" theory - I don't think these photos show what some seem to think they do.
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F9Animal
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:45 am

The dash cam video tells me that the plane was going waaaay too fast, even if it touched down halfway down the runway. Its just such a violent impact. I just could not imagine what was going on in the final seconds. Not to mention, this flight crew was incredibly experienced. It would be a real shocker to me if it was due to a late touchdown, and 100% pilot error. I have a suspicion that the airplane did not respond to flight crew maneuvers.
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:14 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 158):
This is a 10,040 foot runway. The altitude in the shot of the accident flight appears to be about 20-30 feet. Assuming a final descent of 250fpm, it would take about 5 seconds to touch down from the photo taken of this accident. Assuming a landing speed of around 120 knots, that would eat up about 1,000 feet of runway. That's not insignificant but again, that's 1,000 feet of a 10,040 foot runway. And this plane was still traveling at a "high speed" when it hit the embankment, which is almost 1,000 feet beyond the end of that 10,040 foot runway. You're still talking about a plane going what appears by the *low* estimates here to be going about 60 knots after traveling about 1 1/2 miles on the ground.

  

Perhaps a slightly long/fast landing, followed by the crew's decision to go around, but with something going wrong? Flaps, reversers, power settings, control surfaces, brakes, ... maybe the pilots just forgot to set something. Is Tu-204 equally automated wrt. go around tasks as modern western aircraft are? What things could you in theory forget to set as a pilot, if you were going around in a Tu-204?

Also, a mechanical problem may have occurred. Say, brakes getting stuck, and the aircraft not getting enough speed to lift-off again? Reminds me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Lokomotiv_Yaroslavl_air_disaster
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:31 am

Thanks to the RussianPlanes photographers for their pics and links.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 158):
I just don't really see any evidence for the "landing long" theory - I don't think these photos show what some seem to think they do.

As with most accidents, it's a chain of events which lead to the accident itself, and everything that happens before that point can compound the effects of the accident.

A little too fast and a little too long added to a slippery runway and sub par brakes, maybe a problem with planting the plane on the mains to get the ground spoilers and reverse thrusters working.

I'm not saying that landing long and or fast was the primary cause of the accident, (or any of the other possible causes happened), but if you look at how much trouble the 204 in the video had staying planted, it could have exacerbated the effects of the accident...and even a little extra energy at impact can make a difference in survivability.
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KC135Hydraulics
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:39 am

Is there a video somewhere in this thread of the entire landing run? I saw the dash cam video... absolutely chilling. It's hard to grasp that people were dying as that plane was crashing into that embankment. Truly sad.
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F9Animal
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:16 am

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 162):
Is there a video somewhere in this thread of the entire landing run? I saw the dash cam video... absolutely chilling. It's hard to grasp that people were dying as that plane was crashing into that embankment. Truly sad.

No, nothing showing the entire landing. But... With as many cameras that airports have nowadays, I would not be surprised in coming days or weeks that footage is found. Hopefully there was a CCTV camera pointed in the right place at the right time and captured the landing.
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awthompson
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:56 am

With only flight deck and cabin crew on board, hence few duties for cabin crew, I will be interested to find out how many persons were on the flight deck and whether it was fully sterile during the landing phase of the flight.
 
smws
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:05 pm

Information trickling in. It wasn't an issue with the runway, at least:

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20121231/178..._Runway_Not_a_Factor_in_Fatal.html
 
captainmeeerkat
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:11 pm

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45b4b3cb&opt=0

From the AvHerald:

"On Dec 31st 2012 Rosaviatsia released a modification to aircraft operations manual requiring flight crew to apply reverse thrust only if the engine is operating (stating application of reverse thrust is prohibited on a malfunctioning engine). To apply reverse thrust the engine should be pulled to idle for 1-2 seconds, then command reverse thrust at minimum thrust, verify yellow "thrust reverser unlocked" followed by green "REV" indications appear, only then apply high reverse thrust. Rosaviatsia reported there have been a number of cases where the green "REV" indication did not appear (editorial note: there have been rumours since the Dec 20th overrun, that the crew had applied reverse thrust, the reverser however had not opened and at least one of the engine was delivering full forward thrust instead)."

A very interesting modification to be made to the operations manual - perhaps the FDR has told them something already?
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spacecadet
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting Captainmeeerkat (Reply 166):
A very interesting modification to be made to the operations manual - perhaps the FDR has told them something already?

Seems plausible... it's not uncommon for early procedural changes to be made during investigations if there's a clear and present problem. Similar recommendations were made not long after the TAM 3054 crash, I recall (they may have been more like "reiterations" of existing procedures, but they gave a big hint as to where the investigation was going).
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zanl188
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:40 pm

Quoting Captainmeeerkat (Reply 166):
A very interesting modification to be made to the operations manual - perhaps the FDR has told them something already?

More likely a result of the Dec 20th overrun.
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F9Animal
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:49 pm

Isnt that a long procedure to follow? I mean, by the time the crew determines a failure of thrust reverse, could time be a critical factor? What do you do then? Firewall the throttle and hope you have enough room? And ice I would think could play a very nasty role if its on the runway. I am obviously not a pilot, so it would be great to hear what fellow pilots do in a situation like this. So here is my 31 hours of flight time specialist thoughts...Wheels touch, put throttles in reverse. No yellow, no green.. I just spent 3 seconds minimum looking at my gauges. I apply full thrust to go around. Now... Does it take a few seconds for the throttle to respond to my imput, or a few seconds for my thrust to increase? It just seems like time would not be good if I only have say 6, 000 feet of runway left!!

Again.. Not a pilot, so I dont want a bashing!  
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ajd1992
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting F9animal (Reply 169):
It just seems like time would not be good if I only have say 6, 000 feet of runway left!!

6000 feet of runway is a lot of runway - large aircraft similar in size to the TU-204 fly out of airports like that all the time. I doubt it was a problem until it ended up being mostly behind them, although looking at the dashcam video (and I have several times being a dashcammer myself) the speed it was doing, I'm surprised it didn't go around earlier.
 
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:43 am

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 170):
Quoting F9animal (Reply 169):
It just seems like time would not be good if I only have say 6, 000 feet of runway left!!

6000 feet of runway is a lot of runway - large aircraft similar in size to the TU-204 fly out of airports like that all the time. I doubt it was a problem until it ended up being mostly behind them, although looking at the dashcam video (and I have several times being a dashcammer myself) the speed it was doing, I'm surprised it didn't go around earlier.

Actually 6000ft is not that much runway for a plane flying the speeds of a Tu-204 on finals. Float a little bit in the flare and you will very quickly find that you do not have much runway left although at least being light weight they would have needed less runway than in normal revenue use.
 
cbphoto
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:49 am

Quoting Captainmeeerkat (Reply 166):
A very interesting modification to be made to the operations manual - perhaps the FDR has told them something already?

Does anyone know how the reverser on these engines work? Could it be an issue with the reversing mechanism where it failed and the engine spooled up, but instead of providing reverse thrust, it was producing forward thrust?

Different aircraft and engine design, but a NW DC-9 had a hydraulic issue in MSP where the aircraft lost all of the brakes and the Captain engaged the reverse thrust, except the reverser doors were hydraulically actuated as well, and ended up fire walling the engines in full forward thrust, and hit an A319 that had just pushed from the gate next to it!

Curious to know if it possible on the TU-204 engines if something like that is possible?
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tp1040
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:13 am

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 171):
Actually 6000ft is not that much runway for a plane flying the speeds of a Tu-204 on finals. Float a little bit in the flare and you will very quickly find that you do not have much runway left although at least being light weight they would have needed less runway than in normal revenue use.

The runway is stated at 10,039 feet. The total runway with over run etc., is 2 miles long. 6000 ft would be the middle of the runway.

It has been stated that he touched down within the TDZ. At the worst, that would give him approximately 7,000 for roll out. Plus over run.

Something did not slow him down.
 
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Horstroad
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:25 am

as far as I know reverse thrust isn't considered in minimum runway length calculations. so even without T/R the plane should be able to stop on the runway.

I'm not a pilot, so my question is, when I'm intending to deploy the thrust reversers but the engine provides full foreward thrust,do I notice this (I'm pretty sure I should)? and how much does it impact the required landing distance if I set the engines to idle as soon as I notice the error? would it be enough to explain the very high speet 1000ft beyond the threshold?
 
mandala499
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:03 am

Quoting btblue (Reply 157):
I'm looking at the pictures and there seems to be a fair amount of blurring of planes in the background (compared to the picture of the TU134)... I'm thinking he's going at a considerable speed.

Lower light levels, slower camera shutter speed, on a moving object... result... either:
1. Blurred object of focus and sharp background; or
2. Sharp object of focus and blurred background; or
3. Everything's blurred.   

Quoting btblue (Reply 157):
Seeing as this was a positioning flight after dropping tourists off, feasible that an error was made by the pilot in that he calculated for a heavier landing (having landed previously with pax) therefore requiring more thrust when in fact the aircraft was empty of PAX? This would result in higher speed, greater height above the threshold and the reason he has full flaps?

They would have calculated the approach and landing speeds (including go-around speed) based on their current weight slightly prior to the approach or expected weight on the approach.
On the full flaps issue... the aircraft probably has 1 or 2 flaps setting allowed for use in an all-engine landing... Full flap may result in a more pronounced pitch down, but also gives more drag which allows the engines to run at a higher thrust setting, which results in a more responsive go-around/

Quoting F9animal (Reply 169):
Isnt that a long procedure to follow?

Well, the normal procedure is, check spoilers deployed, reversers unlocked, and brakes (manual or auto)... and yes, spoilers first, then unlock reversers... Yes, this new procedure is potentially cumbersome... but, the landing calculations can be done without reversers and more wheelbrakes... by the standard logic anyways... touchdown, spoilers, apply manual wheelbrakes (or check autobrakes), and not even touching the reversers... are perfectly acceptable.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 169):
I mean, by the time the crew determines a failure of thrust reverse, could time be a critical factor? What do you do then? Firewall the throttle and hope you have enough room? And ice I would think could play a very nasty role if its on the runway.

No... once you have commanded reversers and you don't get reverser deployment, general logic would be, keep it at idle and continue without the reverser... Why? Because there is no guarantee that the reversers had not unlocked, the last thing you want is firewall the throttles, get airborne, and then get a "reverser deployed" light on one or both engines. You'd be in deep doo doo!
That warning of not going around once thrust reverser has been commanded (regardless of deployment), exists in almost almost every airliner I've seen the manuals for (300/310, 320fam, 330, 340, 737allgens, 747, 757, 767, 777, 787, MD80, a couple of Bombardiers and Embraers too)... so such a logic isn't and should't be limited to the Tu-204.

---
Now, can anyone calculate the speed of the car that has the dashcam? I think from there we can calculate the aircraft speed just prior to impact... (google earth, check the lane markings for distance reference)...????
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spacecadet
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:37 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 175):
Now, can anyone calculate the speed of the car that has the dashcam? I think from there we can calculate the aircraft speed just prior to impact... (google earth, check the lane markings for distance reference)...????

I did as you suggested and came up with an approximate speed of the car of 70.9mph. I counted 26 lane markers in exactly 10 seconds, then counted off those 26 lane markers in Google Maps satellite view and came up with about 1,040 feet. 1,040 feet in 10 seconds translates to 70.9mph, which isn't an unreasonable speed for a highway like this with light traffic.

I'll note, though, that he/she seems to have slowed down slightly towards the end of my count - the 70.9 speed is an average over that span. The car was probably going a little slower at the end... I'd guess more like 65.

How can you get the speed of the plane from the speed of the car?

[Edited 2012-12-31 21:39:16]
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MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:14 am

Going back to my post about the amount of times this aircraft was photgraphed and/or videotaped on its last flight, if you go to wikipedia and search this incident, there is a picture of this aircraft mid-flight before it crashed, too! Amazes me how many people spotted this aircraft on flight.
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PW100
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:31 am

At first sight, this did not seem to be a split thurst reverse problem. If only one enigne would go into thrust reverse, it would be hard to keep the aircraft on the centreline.

As can been seen on the car video, the aircraft was dead centre on the (extended) centreline; the aircraft nosewheel even bounced against the overhead approach light structure, which is exactly on the extended centreline.

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captainmeeerkat
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:18 pm

What if the engine(s) was/were indicating idle or T/R deployed but the engine(s) was/were giving forward thrust? Is such a thing possible? How noticeable would such a thing be if it was an unknown fault?
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spacecadet
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:09 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 182):
Am actually only interested in the car speed prior to aircraft impact...

Well it would be difficult, if not impossible to calculate that precisely if the car is not at a constant speed, because by nature any measurement you take using the tools we have (Google Maps and a YouTube video) would be an average, and the shorter the measurement, the greater the error that will be introduced. I'm confident in saying the car was traveling an average of 70-71mph over the first 10 seconds of the video, which ends just prior to the plane hitting the embankment.

I just further broke it down into the first 5 seconds and the next 5 seconds. In the first five seconds, they passed 14 lane markers. In the second five seconds they passed 12. Assuming the lane markers are exactly the same length and spacing (which is not guaranteed), that means they traveled 560 feet in the first 5 seconds and 480 feet in the next 5. So in the second 5 seconds, which ends just before the plane hit, they were at an average of 65.5mph. But that still wouldn't be an exact number; they may have slowed further or alternately accelerated slightly as they saw the car in front of them start to pull away just before the impact, the lane markers may be longer or shorter, and YouTube doesn't have precise time codes, so this is just as close as I can get it to 5 second chunks.

But I think 65.5mph has to be pretty close to their actual speed at the time of impact.
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CF-CPI
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:18 pm

A relatively recent update:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...heck-thrust-reverse-status-380606/

It's not clear if this means that they found evidence that reverse thrust was actually an issue in this crash. From earlier commentary, I gather that not carrying out the required checks/procedures outlined here means that forward thrust actually results. I hope there will be more definitive updates.
 
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Horstroad
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:51 pm

Quote:
the operating manual specifically warns the crew to check that the reverser is active, with the presence of the green 'REV' indication, before committing to maximum reverse thrust.

isn't it impossible to increase reverse thrust if the reverser is unlocked but not fully deployed?
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:52 pm

I saw a MAYDAY broadcast about a 320 accident at GRU where one reverser was inop and a procedural mixup had one engine on full and another on full reverse. It over ran and went off the side of the runway in a similar fashion as this 204.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAM_Airlines_Flight_3054
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flood
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:57 pm

DavidKM of flightglobal tweeted a link to a clip purportedly from the aircraft's prior landing at Pardubice:
http://youtu.be/GgOIS3oknRM

The comment also mentions "Later remarked that under the wings dripping oil" (google translation).
 
s5daw
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:44 am

Quoting flood (Reply 184):
DavidKM of flightglobal tweeted a link to a clip purportedly from the aircraft's prior landing at Pardubice:

What happened here? Seems like a hard landing... the overhead panels even opened due to the G forces or so it seems!?


Also the speed seems quite high. From the road just before the runway to the building is 420m according to google maps, and they passed that distance in 5s. That would give them the ground speed of 160 knots (tail wind?).


The first touchdown seems to be 650m after RWY threshold and the loud bang (bounce?) is heard 940m after threshold.


Is this considered normal? Did the crew have problems landing this plane? Too fast & too long, same as in Moscow??


In any case, the reverse thrust is heard at about half of the RWY and they seem to stop pretty fast. Something they could not do empty later that day.



[Edited 2013-01-03 17:13:43]

[Edited 2013-01-03 17:20:25]
 
flood
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:50 am

Quoting s5daw (Reply 185):
What happened here?

I have no idea if it's "just" a hard landing, but it's either a strange coincidence or another piece of the puzzle - as it certainly isn't normal. The initial touchdown on the mains didn't really strike me as hard... does the loud bang originate from the nose gear or elsewhere?
 
F9Animal
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:34 am

I dont think the mains actually touched until the bang. Another words, he kinda floated 5 to 10 feet above the runway, and came down hard.

Anyone notice the fluctuation of the engines?

[Edited 2013-01-03 22:35:50]
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a380heavy
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:03 am

I think the mains did touch down before the louder bang because you hear the passenger making an 'ufff' sound as though that represented a hard enough touch down, this was then followed by the louder bang of an impact strong enough to dislodge overhead panels.

The sound of the engines varying seems fairly normal to me, though it does seem that the pilot does retard the engines momentarily - similar to just before the flair but he was some day off the flair at that point.

The speed shortly before touchdown does appear to be fast - I've not done any calculations but it just appears quick to me compared to all the landings I've experienced (barring one in a Delta MD-11       )
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shufflemoomin
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:43 pm

I would agree with the comments on the landing speed. That does seem like an incredibly fast landing and it just has that feeling that it's not a very relaxed or controlled landing. Anyone one know if the same crew that perished were in control here?
 
akelley728
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:57 am

Are there any more updates on this?
 
s5daw
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:48 pm

No hard facts to my knowledge. Not 787 related, so who cares... or something 

I read on pprune that there is supposed to be a CCTV footage of the whole landing + crash, but it has not been released (or leaked).
 
F9Animal
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:23 am

I have been hoping to hear something by now. Any news on how the survivors are doing? All of a sudden, news has not said anything about this accident. Interesting development on the CCTV footage. Perhaps airport CCTV? If so, that might explain it not being viral.
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CF-CPI
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:54 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 191):
I read on pprune that there is supposed to be a CCTV footage of the whole landing + crash, but it has not been released (or leaked).

I would gather the TU-204 has visual clues when the reversers are deployed, much as any other type does. Brakes and/or reversers are still considered suspect, as far as I know. Whatever the cause, the authorities really have gone silent on this one.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:23 pm

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 193):
Quoting s5daw (Reply 191):I read on pprune that there is supposed to be a CCTV footage of the whole landing + crash, but it has not been released (or leaked).
I would gather the TU-204 has visual clues when the reversers are deployed, much as any other type does. Brakes and/or reversers are still considered suspect, as far as I know. Whatever the cause, the authorities really have gone silent on this one.

There is an investigation in progress and only in it's very early stages. If there were any airport based video, even by private individuals, it was most likely seized as evidence as would happen in any country. Any survivors and other witnesses are probably under government order not to speak to anyone, that this happened in Russia, with an Russia based airline, the aircraft made by a Russian/former USSR state company, so in a place like Russia there is a different concept of openness of investigations. You also perhaps have, as in other parts of the world, the possibility of criminal prosecutions of the surving flight crew, ATC staff, aircraft mx persons, the airline even the aircraft manufacture's management that means silence is a good idea. The news media in Russia is also under considerable pressures to be shut down or be hassled if they were to leak videos or witness statements.
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:42 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 149):
Quoting akelley728 (Reply 190):
Are there any more updates on this?

On Jan 13th 2013 Rosaviatsia enhanced the airworthiness directive released on Dec 31st 2012 demanding operators to check their TU-204 aircraft for proper fitting of cam locks on the thrust reversers. If there are gaps corrective adjustments according to maintenance manuals are to be made. Verify the thrust lever locks preventing maximum reverse thrust application without thrust reversers in their deployed position are working properly by gently releasing the fluid pressure in the reverser accumulator and apply minimum reverse thrust. Apply intermediate reverse thrust and check the locks have engaged. Adjust the maximum position of the levers with the lock engaged according to manual. Report all findings, positive or negative, to Rosaviatsia at the latest on Jan 16th 2013.


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s5daw
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:31 pm

Some "leaked information" from pprune:

A/c was totaly in order. But...
1) +20 km/h more than MAX laning speed allowed
2) Strong crosswind (possible more than allowed)
3) SOP and FCOM violation
4) Very nervous situation at the cabin from the begining of last flight, because of mistakes made at previous flight.
5) (!) Malpractice to say loud right things but doing wrong - landing speed on approach sounded to the SOP and kept 30-50 km higher, AoA sounded as 5 at pre-landing check but really is 2 and so on...

Limit switches is not the case, they was working but a/c newer touched with all three gears at landig (or more precisely "low flying"). There was 6 touches with left MG, 7 with right and 6 with nose.

Around 25-th (of 39) sec from touchdown at CVR was recorded "Takeoff?!?!" and after that flaps was moved to 18, then, couple seconds before end of the runway - both engines was shut off with emergency valve - there was signal from both MG, automatic engagemet of air brakes and spoilers, but in two seconds starts recorded alternating Ny, which coincides with the exit from the runway. Speed on the treshold was 220 kmh, speed of collision (end of record) - 170 kmh.
 
CF-CPI
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:47 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 196):
a/c newer touched with all three gears at landig (or more precisely "low flying"). There was 6 touches with left MG, 7 with right and 6 with nose.

Is this the result of high cross winds, or some other aspect of the landing (coming on too hard and bouncing, etc)?

Quoting s5daw (Reply 196):
Speed on the treshold was 220 kmh

This may have been mentioned somewhere, but is this a reasonable speed on the threshold, or too high?

Anyhow, thanks for all your info.
 
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:53 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 196):
+20 km/h more than MAX laning speed allowed

I may have just answered my own question from my previous post: then the maximum allowed is really closer to 200 km/hr.

Speaking of the nervous atmosphere, these crewmembers were supposedly quite experienced. Of course there is that vid of the hard landing, supposedly taken on the outbound leg, where overhead panels came loose.
 
tu204
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RE: Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway

Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:58 pm

They only managed to lose 50km/h on a 3k runway...well, for anyone here who has any hours behind the controls...you know what they should have done when they see that the aircraft is not decelerating but has enough room to take off again.
Anxious to read the interim report.
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