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mayor
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:40 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 48):
You are WRONG again, delta got Dc-10 when they merged with Western Airlines.

Read your history.....I was THERE when we took delivery of the first batch of 5 DC-10s, FROM Douglas in '74-'75. Therefore, I am NOT wrong again, because I was correct in the first place.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 50):
Delta didn't keep Pan Am's A-310's very long either.

I remember the ex-PanAm people telling me, when I was in TLV, that they hoped one of the first things that DL repaired on the A-310s was the onboard loading system as on most of the a/c, it was inoperative and the pallets and containers had to be maneuvered into place by hand. On one of the a/c, the pallet locks just inside the front door, had to be taped in a deployed position once the pallets were loaded and before the door was shut.
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:44 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 48):
Quoting mayor (Reply 31):
Wrong. DL ordered theirs directly from Douglas, as has been mentioned above. Then they were sold to UA and leased back from them until L1011s started to arrive.

You are WRONG again, delta got Dc-10 when they merged with Western Airlines.

jfk777, what do you mean, wrong again? And why is WRONG all caps? I flew on Delta DC-10's that they received in 1972 several times, and then flew on the same aircraft after they were sent to United. I suggest before you tell someone they are wrong, YOU get your facts straight.
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:32 am

Quoting DouglasDC10 (Reply 16):
HA and TZ replaced their TriStars with DC-10s at a time when both types were available for cheap prices on the second hand market, but the DC-10 was available in higher numbers, offered more range and had also some younger low-time frames on the market (TZ's DC-10s were among the last built).

To correct you here, the ex-NWA DC-10-30s TZ got were NOT low time airframes. Three of them were early 80's and all eventually went to World. All the rest were mid 70s. Omni actually got the best of the lot, and we got what was left.
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:44 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 21):
Operationally, the 757 was not a success for EA on the balance sheet either

I remember seeing EA 757's at GSP in the mid 1980's on the ATL route, a whopping 140 miles.
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:12 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 49):
Mayor is not wrong regarding DL's first batch of 5 DC-10s operated from 1972/73 to 1975. You are correct concerning their 2nd batch of DC-10s inherited from the Western merger 12 years later.

All 5 of the early '70s batch below, registered N601DA through N605DA.

Aerotransport.org also confirms that these 5 DC-10-10's were delivered new to DL in 72-73.
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:43 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 48):
You are WRONG again, delta got Dc-10 when they merged with Western Airlines.

Just to confirm what others have said DL operated the DC-10 twice during their history.

The first time they ordered 5 DC-10s as a sort of insurance policy against any further delays by Lockheed/RR on the L1011. As part of an agreement with United the 5 DC-10s were sold prior to delivery to UA and then leased back to DL. Once the L1011s were delivered the DC-10s were returned to UA where they flew until UA sold them to FX. I didn't look the history of the other 4 up but as of a year ago at least M601DA was still in service with FX as N377FE.

The second time they inherited a number of frames due to the Western merger.
 
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mayor
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:50 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 51):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 48):
You are WRONG again, delta got Dc-10 when they merged with Western Airlines.

Read your history.....I was THERE when we took delivery of the first batch of 5 DC-10s, FROM Douglas in '74-'75. Therefore, I am NOT wrong again, because I was correct in the first place.

Actually, thinking back, I was around when we got the second batch of DC-10s with the WA merger, also.
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:49 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 31):
Wrong. DL ordered theirs directly from Douglas, as has been mentioned above. Then they were sold to UA and leased back from them until L1011s started to arrive.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 55):
Aerotransport.org also confirms that these 5 DC-10-10's were delivered new to DL in 72-73.

While these five DC-10s were undoubtedly delivered direct to DL, Boeing does not list Delta as a customer for the DC-10!
 
vv701
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:39 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 59):
While these five DC-10s were undoubtedly delivered direct to DL, Boeing does not list Delta as a customer for the DC-10!

I believe this is because they were ordered and sold to UA and immediately leased by DL as stated in Reply 31. They were returned to UA after DL's L-1011s had been delivered.

As an example, N620DA was sold by Boeing to UA on 10 November 1992 and leased to DL that day. It was returned to UA as N1834U on 23 April 1975.
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:56 pm

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
I remember these carriers flew both the DC10 and the L10 11. Some of them at the same time. Was that a wise decision because 4 of the 8 carriers are now bankrupt?

HA, PA, BA, EA, UA, TZ, BR (british caledonian), DL

That is 4 our of 8, that is pretty much better than average because I think more than half of all airlines ever created go bankrupt. It is just coincidence that they went bankrupt - neither really flew huge fleets of both at the same time

add a small cargo/charter airline Arrow Air that flew both L1011 and DC-10, I think briefly at same time that went bankrupt in 2009.

The majority of bankrupt and gone carriers didn't fly either or just flew one of the type just some off the top of my head

Olympic - neither
Mexicana - DC-10
Aero Peru - DC-10
TWA - L1011
Braniff - neither
Sabena - DC-10
VIASA - DC-10
Faucett Peru L1011
Varig DC-10
Most of the late 1970s/early 80s Post - Deregulation US carriers flew neither

I think some of these airlines that fly or flew huge fleets of both 737s and Airbus narrow bodies like United, Delta, American (soon), US Airways, Easy Jet, British, Lufthansa, ANA, and many others are still successfully still around

Or how about airlines flying the 777 and A330/A340

Cathay Pacific
Delta
Emirates
Air France
KLM
Thai

and many more

are all still doing quite well
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:12 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 59):
While these five DC-10s were undoubtedly delivered direct to DL, Boeing does not list Delta as a customer for the DC-10!




Because it was never a firm order, it was a LOI. There's more to the Delta order then we will ever know. United had ordered 30 DC-10's in 1968 but the order was later reduced to 22. Douglas then re marketed these delivery positions and Delta took up five with a LOI. Then somehow United reordered these five in March of 1971 at the same time Delta signed their LOI. So there appears to have been a deal between Douglas, United and Delta before the LOI was placed. I wonder how many people here know that China airlines had a firm order for two DC-10-30's that were never delivered because the Government of Taiwan wouldn't sanction the order. One was even painted in full China airlines colors yet they don't show up as a customer for the DC-10 either.

[Edited 2012-12-31 06:15:43]
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:44 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 58):
Any commonality with the A300B4's engine was dumb-luck and not a driving factor in lease agreement.

At the time, Frank Borman said the engine commonality was a significant factor. I forget the exact words, but it was something to the effect that "people ask me why we took on the DC-10 .... " and he responded with the engine info. No doubt it was just one aspect, I'm sure. The L1011-500 had lower per-trip costs than the DC-10-30, but the larger -10 had better seat mile figures. Assuming that EA could fill the seats on the DC-10, it may have been a better choice economically.

I have spoken to a former EA f/a, who was pretty senior and got to fly the Latin routes. She said cabin crew loved working on the DC-10s, because everything functioned well. I love the L1011-500, but I'd be curious as to whether the Tristar's reputation for needing extra tender loving care on its complicated systems factored in to EA's decision making. People who worked on both the standard and the -500 model say that they really were two distinct types in terms of systems, cockpit, etc., so the benefits of commonality may not have been so great as they would appear. Furthermore, AC personnel who worked on both stated that both sizes of L10 were equally 'high maintenance', each in their own way.
 
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mayor
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 63):
Quoting scbriml (Reply 59):
While these five DC-10s were undoubtedly delivered direct to DL, Boeing does not list Delta as a customer for the DC-10!




Because it was never a firm order, it was a LOI. There's more to the Delta order then we will ever know. United had ordered 30 DC-10's in 1968 but the order was later reduced to 22. Douglas then re marketed these delivery positions and Delta took up five with a LOI. Then somehow United reordered these five in March of 1971 at the same time Delta signed their LOI. So there appears to have been a deal between Douglas, United and Delta before the LOI was placed. I wonder how many people here know that China airlines had a firm order for two DC-10-30's that were never delivered because the Government of Taiwan wouldn't sanction the order. One was even painted in full China airlines colors yet they don't show up as a customer for the DC-10 either.

OK......I got this directly out of "DELTA, History of an Airline" by Lewis & Newton, University of Georgia Press, 1979:

"At a special meeting of the board of directors on March 28. 1971, therefore, a decision was made to order five DC-10s From McDonnell Douglas as a temporary measure pending further developements. A contract was soon executed specifying deliveries in late 1972 and early 1973."

Later, after it was known that the Tristar program would survive:


"The five McDonnell-Douglas DC-10s that the firm had ordered in 1971 for insurance purposes while the fate of the TriStar still hung in the balance would now be operated only as a stopgap while the L-1011s were being built, and an agreement was therefore announced in June 1972 transferring the ultimate purchase rights to these ships to United Air Lines."
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:27 pm

I dont think flying these aircraft contributed to the demise (BK) of any airline.

Factors that went into that were much larger than this.

The DC 10 was extermely successful aircraft and flew right into the 90s.

The L1011 was much less successful in terms of quantity and profitablity for the manufacturer. However, airlines, crews, and passengers that had them loved them. They also flew through the 90s and through 9/11.

On a personal note, my last DC 10 flight was EWR-FCO on CO. Coach, middle seat, middle section...terrible product.

My last L1011 flight was EA MIA-LGA. Aisle seat on right side of aircraft. Beautiful plane. Eastern was a mess. We had a 5 hour delay because they filled the plane and the guages didn't register the fuel. Guys were literally sticking dip sticks in the wing. They went out of business within a year...she was a tired bird and a tied airline at that point
 
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mayor
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:37 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 66):
Guys were literally sticking dip sticks in the wing. They went out of business within a year..

That's not all that uncommon. Not sure how the system works on the L1011, but, for instance, on the 727, if a gauge is inop, normal procedure is to pull down the appropriate "stick" from the bottom of the wing to determine how much fuel is in the wing before you start pumping it on board. Sometimes, when we had a full fuel load, we'd pull down the outermost stick and fill the tank until the fuel started squirting out of the stick, indicating that the tank in that wing was full.
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:47 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 39):
flew mainly SFO-Osaka Kansai International. KIX

United's L-1011s were gone from the fleet by 1989, well before KIX opened in 1994. Any flights to Osaka would have been to Itami airport.
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 63):
I wonder how many people here know that China airlines had a firm order for two DC-10-30's that were never delivered because the Government of Taiwan wouldn't sanction the order. One was even painted in full China airlines colors yet they don't show up as a customer for the DC-10 either.

So did Egyptair and Lauda (although there was no fully painted Egyptair DC-10 AFAIK while there was an at least partially painted Lauda DC-10-30CF which was later delivered to Fed Ex).

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 53):
To correct you here, the ex-NWA DC-10-30s TZ got were NOT low time airframes. Three of them were early 80's and all eventually went to World. All the rest were mid 70s. Omni actually got the best of the lot, and we got what was left.

You are right. The late TG and JAS birds (all late eighties) went all to Omni while TZ got some ex-Korean and Swissair aircraft. which were early 80s late 70s. However, compared to other DC-10s and late L-1011s they were still pretty young, offered better range than the L-1011 fleet and were relatively cheap when few used A340/330-300 and 777-200/-200ER were on the market. They were #183/184/187/188/199 and 292. While the ex-Swissair aircraft were pretty old and high-time frames, the ex-Korean aircraft (#188 & 199) didn't have that many hours. AFAIK, only #292, an early 80s ex-Swiss aircraft went on to World while the others were stored when TZ ceased operations.
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:49 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 62):
The majority of bankrupt and gone carriers didn't fly either or just flew one of the type just some off the top of my head

Aero Peru - DC-10

In addition to 3 ex-Mexicana DC-10-15s briefly operated in the 1990s, AeroPeru also operated 3 L-1011s. They were the first operator of PSA's 2 L-1011s which PSA removed from service after less than one year's service in 1974/75. They were totally unsuitable for PSA's shorthaul commuter network in California. The L-1011s spent a long period (at least a couple of years) stored in the desert. Nobody wanted them due to their unique lower-deck lounge. AeroPeru finally leased them for a while in the late 1970s and early '80s. They also leased another ex-Eastern L-1011 for a while in the 1990s.

The other 3 L-1011s ordered by PSA were cancelled before delivery and went to LTU in Germany.

The 2 ex-PSA aircraft.


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olddominion727
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:43 pm

@YYZ717, I saw the DC10 in LAX quite a bit... so it may have been purchased for the LON run, but I know it was used to LAX for the cargo capacity as well.
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:56 pm

These are the original news articles from Flight International regarding the Delta order for DC-10's plus the transfer to United in 1972.

Delta Airlines, the US domestic operatorwith 25 TriStars on order, struck abitter blow at the hopes of Lockheed
and Rolls-Royce on March 18 when itannounced an order for five McDonnellDouglas DC-lOs and options on a
further three. The airline is in ahealthy financial state (it declared a$40 million profit during 1970) and since news of the Rolls-Royce debacle first broke had been regarded as theleast committed of the TriStar customers.
Advance payments on itsTriStars amount to $34 m i l l i on(£14-2 million), compared with about
$100 million (£41-7 million) which TWA has invested. Delta has taken out an insurance policy by ordering the
DC-lOs, which will be delivered between the autumn of 1972 and early in1973. At a cost of around $15 million
(£6-25 million) apiece, they will ensure its competitive position. Delta's first TriStar was due to be delivered
at the end of this year.Lockheed has not finally lost out on the deal because the Delta contract
with them is being maintained and the airline is continuing with the discussions over the engine problem.
Eastern Airlines, which has 37 TriStarson order, has publicly affirmed its faith in the aircraft, and consequently
in Lockheed, in a statementlast Friday.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/1971.html

DELTA STAYS WITH TRISTAR
RIGHTS held by Delta to buy five DC-lOs, worth $90million, from McDonnell Douglas have been transferred to
United. The agreement—reached on June 5—is subject to CAB approval and is such that upon delivery to United the
aircraft will be leased immediately to Delta for about two and-a-half years. Delta will operate the DC-lOs until
deliveries of its Lockheed TriStars are well under way.According to Edward E. Carlson, president of United,
purchase of the DC-lOs will not require new financing arrangements to be made. David C. Garrett, president of
Delta, notes that the DC-lOs were ordered a year ago"primarily as protection against delay in delivery of the
TriStars." He says: "Since Lockheed's financial problems now appear solved, Delta will continue with its intention
to buy 24."The five DC-lOs will be delivered in Delta colours. One will be received in October of this year, two in November and two early in 1973. All the aircraft will be returned to United in April and May 1975.
United recently exercised its only remaining options tobuy seven DClOs. By the end of this summer the company will have 15 in scheduled service, with 22 to follow over the next three years. This will bring United's DC-10 fleet
to a total of 37, which compares with its original order for30, plus 30 options.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/1972.html

Again, there is more to this then we will ever know. A paragraph from another Flight International article at the time the DC-10 started revenue service states:

"The eight orders which United dropped were made up by Delta, which signed a "letter of intent" with McDonnell Douglas covering five orders and three options. Delta was of course insuring itself against the possible collapse ofthe TriStar. The airline was the most doubtful of the TriStar customers from the Lockheed/Rolls-Royce point ofview, and had voiced its doubts about the aircraft in public soon after the Rolls-Royce collapse. But it was the only airline actually to shift its allegiance, if only in part, to the other side. With the TriStar situation brighter the future of the Delta DC-IOs must remain in doubt; no airline could welcome the prospect of a fleet incorporating three wide-body types."

Just seems strange that United cancels 8 DC-10's and Delta then picks up these 8 slots. Then, within a year United gets these 8 slots back through a lease agreement with Delta. What I would like to know is, who's specs were these five jets built to, Delta's or United's?
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 71):
What I would like to know is, who's specs were these five jets built to, Delta's or United's?

I've read that they were identical to the rest of UA's DC-10-10s.
 
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mayor
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:20 pm

Don't forget that only the 5 firm orders were ever delivered to DL......I wonder if the options went back to UA along with the 5 a/c?


According to the history book mentioned earlier (the authors had complete access to DL's files) once the Lockheed/RR problem was settled, DL transferred the purchase rights to the FIVE to UA and, of course, then leased them back. From what I can gather, UA had ordered their initial batch in '68........I believe it was 24. DL's BOD made the decision to order the DC-10s in '71, right in the middle of the Lockheed/RR mess. That was straightened out soon after that, because the lease back deal was done before DL took delivery of the 10s in late '72.



Perhaps, when UA cancelled part of their order and DL got wind of it, coincidentally, at the right time when they were looking for the 10s.


As far as whose specs they were built to, I couldn't tell you. I wonder if they had time before delivery and after the deal with UA to get any possible specs changed?

[Edited 2012-12-31 13:25:05]
 
dtw9
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:33 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 73):

Don't forget that only the 5 firm orders were ever delivered to DL......I wonder if the options went back to UA along with the 5 a/c?

United firmed up the three options on Dec 1 1971. So again this whole thing is strange because United cancelled 8 DC-10's in Jan 1971, Delta takes up all 8 as orders or options under a letter of intent in March 1971. Then in June 1972 Delta transfers purchase rights to United and takes delivery four months later of DC-10's built to United specs. So the question is, why did United firm the options in Dec 1971, fully six months before the deal with Delta to take the purchase rights on the other five?

[Edited 2012-12-31 13:41:26]

[Edited 2012-12-31 13:42:52]
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:54 pm

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 63):
At the time, Frank Borman said the engine commonality was a significant factor. I forget the exact words, but it was something to the effect that "people ask me why we took on the DC-10 .... " and he responded with the engine info.

I don't doubt that. There had to be a positive spin to the shareholders for adding another fleet type... But the engine commonality of the DC-10 did not outweigh the overall commonality of the Tristar 500 with existing L-1011 fleet. Especially when you consider that only two of DC-10s were operated for multiple years. (The third was picked up by CO within a year).

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 63):
She said cabin crew loved working on the DC-10s, because everything functioned well. I love the L1011-500, but I'd be curious as to whether the Tristar's reputation for needing extra tender loving care on its complicated systems factored in to EA's decision making. People who worked on both the standard and the -500 model say that they really were two distinct types in terms of systems, cockpit, etc., so the benefits of commonality may not have been so great as they would appear.

CF-CPI, I'm one of the biggest proponents of the DC-10 on here. Generally, the -500 could not match the -30 in combined payload and range. I'm also aware of the -500's upgrades (I worked in the industry when the US tarmacs were crowded with L1011s). That said, the -500 would have been a better option for EA. And to accomplish that, the MD-82 should have been ordered instead of the 757. That's my opinion.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 62):
There's more to the Delta order then we will ever know.

dtw9, believe what you want. Flightglobal's archives are a great source - for what was made available to the press, anyway.

The truth is, prior to Lockheed's production ramp-up, DL made arrangements with McDonnell Douglas in reserving a minimum for 25 delivery slots for the DC-10. This was understood by both sides as a PLAN B and conditional on Lockheed breaching DL's contract by way of missing SLA deadlines.
 
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TZTriStar500
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:04 pm

Quoting DouglasDC10 (Reply 68):
However, compared to other DC-10s and late L-1011s they were still pretty young, offered better range than the L-1011 fleet and were relatively cheap when few used A340/330-300 and 777-200/-200ER were on the market. They were #183/184/187/188/199 and 292. While the ex-Swissair aircraft were pretty old and high-time frames, the ex-Korean aircraft (#188 & 199) didn't have that many hours. AFAIK, only #292, an early 80s ex-Swiss aircraft went on to World while the others were stored when TZ ceased operations.

The 3 L-1011-500s we had left at the time where all actually younger than any of the DC-10-30s acquired being built in 1982. You are correct that -30s 188, 199, and 292 had low cycles, but the main reason for the DC-10-30 acquisition was exponentially increasingly maintenance and reliability difficulties with the L-1011 being an orphan fleet with virtually no spares and MRO support dwindling. While the DC-10 was NOT an optimal choice, it was the only one that made economic sense at the time as the preferred L-1011 replacement was the 767 and with lease rates over $600K/month in 2006, it was a non-starter for AMC ops. TZ paid the price for waiting too long to replace the widebody fleet in the only profitable side of its business and this was a contributing factor to its demise with no real direct connection to the aircraft choice as WO and Omni successfully flew DC-10-30s for the AMC as well. Had it worked, the L-1011s would have been gone by the end of 2008 and we would have had 5-6 DC-10-30s operational as the plan was temporary for 5 years until 767 lease rates came down.
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:15 pm

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 74):
So the question is, why did United firm the options in Dec 1971, fully six months before the deal with Delta to take the purchase rights on the other five?

I think it's academic. UA's initial order was 30+30. Like AA, UA had every intent of eventually operating over 50 DC-10s. It was just a matter of cash flow and expansion dictating when they would be delivered. IIRC, some of these options from 1968 were not delivered until 1980..
 
dtw9
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:23 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 75):
dtw9, believe what you want. Flightglobal's archives are a great source - for what was made available to the press, anyway.

The truth is, prior to Lockheed's production ramp-up, DL made arrangements with McDonnell Douglas in reserving a minimum for 25 delivery slots for the DC-10. This was understood by both sides as a PLAN B and conditional on Lockheed breaching DL's contract by way of missing SLA deadlines.



This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say there was more to the story then what we knew at the time. Up until now,this is the first I've ever heard of a minimum of 25 delivery positions for Delta. I'm not doubting it at all.
 
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mayor
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:56 pm

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 78):

Was Flightglobal even in existence when all this transpired? If not, WHERE did they get their archived info from?
 
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RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:21 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 77):
IIRC, some of these options from 1968 were not delivered until 1980..



All of United's options had expired with the last conversion to firm order in May 1972 for 7 aircraft, which were all delivered by 1975. After further research the 3 options that Delta held were also allowed to expire along with 20 others in 1971,15 in January and 5 in July. So at the time of first delivery in July 1971, United had 22 firm orders plus 10 options. Add into that the five taken from Delta gave United a fleet of 37 at the end of 1975. United went on to buy two more batches of 5 each in April 1978 and May 1979. One other thing I never realized was that there was never a N1840U in the DC-10 registration sequence.
 
dtw9
Posts: 1016
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:09 am

RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 79):
Was Flightglobal even in existence when all this transpired? If not, WHERE did they get their archived info from?

They were called Flight International
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:51 pm

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 81):
They were called Flight International

Flightglobal is the on-line, very young sister of this weekly magazine.

Flight Internatuional was first published in 1909. It is the world's oldest aviation magazine. It is published weekly in the UK by Reed Business Information.

Flightglobal was established in February 2006 and is the web site of Flight International and its sister publications Airline Business, ACAS and Air Transport Intelligence (ATI).

Flightglobal has a picture library of over a million images which are most if not all of the images published in Flight International over more than a century.

Here is a link to the flightglobal archive of the Flight International magazine:

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Carriers Who Flew DC10 & L1011 Huge Mistake?

Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:02 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 69):
In addition to 3 ex-Mexicana DC-10-15s briefly operated in the 1990s, AeroPeru also operated 3 L-1011s

And a DC-10-30 in basic Canadian livery.

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