FWAERJ
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:29 pm

Before the WN/TZ deal and codeshare, TZ had a deal in place with FL when TZ filed for Chapter 11. FL would have got the MDW hub, leases to 14 MDW gates, some 738s, and the C8 codeshare. TZ would have kept their charters, the IND focus city, and Hawaii routes. HP also expressed interest in TZ's MDW ops, but I'm not sure what that entailed.

WN submitted a higher bid for seven MDW gates and a codeshare with TZ than what FL was going to pay for all of TZ's MDW ops. The bankruptcy court favored WN's bid over FL's. (Ironically, as we all know, WN later bought FL.)
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wn676
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:35 pm

There was HP/TZ in 2004. HP would have assumed the aircraft leases and MDW gates with TZ continuing as a charter outfit and retaining its debt.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
coachclass
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:36 pm

[

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 48):
Before DL and NW merged, didn't DL attempt to merge with US?



I think it was the other way around with DL refusing to merge.

I remember reading about the NA-NW merger talks and although it seemed to be ideal and NA's Maytag wanted to get out of the airline, they couldn't even decide where to have their headquarters.
 
BeachBoy
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:43 pm

AQ and HA on multiple occasions. We all know how that eventually played out.
 
srbmod
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:51 pm

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 21):
AirTran/TWA

That lasted all of about two weeks, as FL got a look at TWA's books and broke off the deal. More than likely the crippling Karabu deal TWA had with Icahn is what killed it since the deal would have still been in force even with a merger. The only way TWA could get out of it was in bankruptcy and FL didn't have the $$$ to provide debtor in possession financing as they were only just beginning to get their own financial issues sorted.



Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 48):
Before DL and NW merged, didn't DL attempt to merge with US? I'm wanting to say it was in 2006.

Hostile takeover bid by US.....
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:15 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 51):
HP would have assumed the aircraft leases and MDW gates with TZ continuing as a charter outfit and retaining its debt.

Thanks; I didn't remember how HP's bid for TZ went. Would C8 (ATA Connection) and their SAABs have become America West Express then, much like how FL planned on turning C8 into AirTran Connect?

Still, I don't think that TZ's 738s would have lasted very long in HP's Airbus-heavy fleet (with no 737NGs, just 737-200s and 737 Classics). OTOH, the 757s would have been a perfect fit, as both TZ and HP stuck Rolls RB211s on their 757s. Even with the 757 commonality, I bet that the 738 leases would have gone out the door had it happened: HP had 50 A318s on order at the time that could easily be converted into other A320 family members (which they eventually were at US), so those 738s probably would have been replaced by A320s in no time.
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Cody
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:25 pm

August 1984...Northeastern International proposed to merge with Air Florida which was in Chapter 11 Bankruptcy, but later backed out. Northeastern subsequently went bankrupt itself and Air Florida merged with Midway.

1991.......Northwest and Midway. Northwest backed out of the deal just as the papers were about to be signed and Midway ended up shutting down.

1982.......A merger between PSA and the bankrupt Braniff was explored. This would have allowed us to see PSA in Dallas and I was told they were planning on keeping the 747's but operating them under the PSA name!
 
bmacleod
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:28 pm

Didn't DL and CO have some merger talk in late 1990s?
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FI642
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:30 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 43):
NW buying ML(?) in 1991.

Yes, until NW found out about an environmental nightmare they would have to
clean up at MDW.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 27):

Quoting doulasc (Reply 26):

Braniff never really made money, and was an interesting carrier, to say the least. As far as airlines to acquire, Braniff would have been higher on the list mainly because it added to the DFW presence and removed a competitor.


BN did make money in South America. Until Harding and gang took over and deregulation, they were profitable. They had a considerable amount of accounts receivable when they filed Chapter 11.

There was talk of NW taking over BN ops after they filed for bankruptcy, however NW only wanted aircraft.
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:48 pm

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 32):
Back in the 1993, Swissair, Scandinavian (SAS), KLM, and Austrian announced a merger agreement called "Alcazar."

And the new company was to be named Symphony.
 
AirGAbon
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:56 pm

I think there was a project of merger between AF and Sabena in the early 90s?
 
UA787DEN
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:56 pm

Quoting FI642 (Reply 58):

Yeah, BI expanded too fast after deregulation.

NW tried mergers and takeovers of a lot of airlines. Was it mostly just for metal?
 
canyonblue17
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:43 pm

Considering Southwest's acquisition of Airtran, don't forget not too long ago Southwest first showed interest in acquiring Frontier.
negative ghostrider the pattern is full
 
ABQopsHP
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:59 pm

Quoting flyjoe (Reply 49):

I completely forgot about the UA/HP thing. Come to think of it, it scared the crap out of us, because we knew what UA would do. Just grab the planes, and close the hubs down. But this was about the time
all airlines were in another scramble to get bigger. Like the mid 80's all over again.


JD CRP
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FWAERJ
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:08 pm

Quoting Lofty (Reply 47):
Before BA jumped into bed with AA they tried US and UA.

IIRC, until BA got in bed with US and T5 opened at ORD, BA flights departed from T1 at ORD (with arrivals at the temporary T4 like everyone else). UA moved much of their JFK operations into BA's T7 at around the same time.

Quoting FI642 (Reply 58):
BN did make money in South America. Until Harding and gang took over and deregulation, they were profitable.

Harding was CEO of BN long before deregulation and when they were profitable. It was only when deregulation took hold when BN started their overexpansion. The feeling at BN after deregulation was that if BN didn't expand rapidly, UA (then "the largest airline in the free world" and a staunch proponent of deregulation) would crush BN like a bug. Little did they know that it wasn't UA that was doing the killing of BN - they were killing themselves (though AA's new DFW hub didn't help matters, either).

Quoting FI642 (Reply 58):
Yes, until NW found out about an environmental nightmare they would have to
clean up at MDW.

Was this in regards to a hangar, fuel contamination, or something else?

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 57):
Didn't DL and CO have some merger talk in late 1990s?
DL wanted to buy CO outright, while NW wanted to invest in CO at around the same time. NW's bid was the chosen one, as Gordon Bethune wanted CO to remain independent. (The "golden share" of CO held by NW happened around the same time.)

[Edited 2013-01-06 13:10:21]
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HA_DC9
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:12 pm

Quoting BeachBoy (Reply 53):
AQ and HA on multiple occasions. We all know how that eventually played out.

Thank god. This would have been a disaster. By the time the final occasion was announced back 2001 (backed by Greg Brenneman) AQ was beginning it's death decline. Many people blamed HA for backing out of the deal, but I can't blame them. The writing was on the wall for AQ. Plus it was speculated that AQ (obviously the weaker airline of the two) wanted more control in the merged entity. AQ at the time was privately owned by the Ching and Ing families and the families stood to lose a huge share of ownership if the deal went through. So in the end, HA backed out and went it alone and the rest is history.
 
ord
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:56 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 27):
Braniff never really made money, and was an interesting carrier, to say the least.

Braniff made money every year in the 70s, except 1970 and 1979.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:12 pm

People might forget but UA wanted to buy US in 1995.
 
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mayor
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:26 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
Northwest and National also agreed to merge in 1970 (with NW the surviving carrier) but the CAB wouldn't agree that National's recently-awarded MIA-LAX route could be included without further hearings etc., and NW backed out of the merger.

I read that NW's proposed merger with Northeast was thought to be a sure thing until they found out that the MIA-LAX route was not to be part of the deal, per the CAB. With NW it was to be all or nothing so they backed out at the last minute. DL stepped in and made an offer and it was accepted.

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 48):
Before DL and NW merged, didn't DL attempt to merge with US? I'm wanting to say it was in 2006.

It was a hostile takeover attempt by US during DL's bankruptcy proceedings, which was rejected.



I heard that in the mid 60s, DL and CO were in talks for a merger, but the sticking point was deciding who the surviving carrier was to be. Neither Woolman at DL and Six at CO were willing to give in.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:08 pm

Southern Airways, before merging with North Central, also had merger talks with Ozark, Texas International, Piedmont and Allegheny. As one top Exec at Southern said in retrospect, "We were too poor to paint and too proud to whitewash."

Western and Wien Air also came close to merging.

There was also some scuttlebutt going around in the early/mid-80's that both Delta and US were kicking the tires at Ozark, but the rumor I heard at the time was that they wanted the planes, not the people. I never put much credence in that, but US and OZ would have made a nice combo, at the time.

Not sure if it was mentioned above, but PA and Braniff 2 also talked a bit, but PA realized that version of Braniff brought little to the table. They needed a bigger domestic partner.

Another rumor I heard from Ozark folks at the time, but there was never any mention of it in the trades that I recall, was that OZ was looking to buy Midway when ML was knee-deep in that Metrolink/Express split personality phase. Again, pure rumor.
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MAS777
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:42 pm

Qantas and Malaysia Airlines considered a merger around 2007 but never moved forward. This was re-explored by Alan Joyce more recently but talks eventually failed with both parties agreeing only on QF to sponsor MH into Oneworld... which will occur on 1st Feb.
 
Phen
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:43 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 42):
If this was the third bid when was the second Ryanair bid made. I can find no reference to it.

FR made a second attempt in December 2008 which failed - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7757971.stm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 42):
Indeed as recently as the 29 December the "Irish Examiner" published an article "Minister sees the light on Ryanair Aer Lingus offer".

That article seems to be a letter from a reader in Dublin and from reading it, it would seem to me that the author is in fact saying the opposite to what you infer from it - he is saying the Minister saw the light and came out with the statement that the government would not sell: "It would seem that Minister Varadkar has heard this call and is alert to the consequences of a Ryanair takeover of Aer Lingus. He will need to carefully monitor the situation at EU level and ensure that he charters a steady course for the indigenous Irish airline that is Aer Lingus." Sounds like the author is glad that the takeover has failed, no?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion...anair-aer-lingus-offer-218046.html
 
Skyguy
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:01 am

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 32):
Back in the 1993, Swissair, Scandinavian (SAS), KLM, and Austrian announced a merger agreement called "Alcazar."

It progressed until the Swiss court rejected it entirely. It was one of the major events which pushed for the failed expansion plan in Swissair.

The failure of this proposed merger spawned the seeds that eventually resulted in the first major airline alliance, Star Alliance, as a way for airlines to work together and mutually benefit without having to buy stakes in each other or merger and draw the scrutiny of regulators.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcazar_(airline)
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doulasc
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:09 am

I do remember around 1987 I was living in South Florida and Braniff-2 and Pan Am talking about a merger.
Braniff-2 was going to Buy Pan Am and Braniff was to be the surviving name,I remember reading that if this
merger goes through it will be a sad day for Pan Am.
 
PITrules
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:18 am

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 1):
United-US Airways in 2000, with the DCA ops were going to be spun off into a new airline (that had an AMR investment) called DC Air.

Related to all this was Atlantic Coast acquiring PSA, Allegheny, and Piedmont.
FLYi
 
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WALmsp
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:54 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 68):
I heard that in the mid 60s, DL and CO were in talks for a merger, but the sticking point was deciding who the surviving carrier was to be. Neither Woolman at DL and Six at CO were willing to give in.

Same story going round regarding WA and CO. WA won the coin toss; Six backed out. Don't know if it's true, but a good story nonetheless.
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justinlee
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:09 am

Anybody interested in the SQ and MU merge proposal? I think that might be the largest opportunity in SQ's history.
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:43 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 74):
Related to all this was Atlantic Coast acquiring PSA, Allegheny, and Piedmont.

Ironically, three years later, DH decided to stop being affiliated with UA (and DL) as part of UA's Chapter 11 proceedings and fly solo as Independence Air. We all know how well that worked out.  
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UA787DEN
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:58 am

Quoting justinlee (Reply 76):

Air China has too much of a say in the merger and the Government has too much control. Also, CX really doesn't want it.
 
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Tomassjc
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:06 am

An AeroMexico-Mexicana merger was proposed a few times. Once after the fall of the Peso in the early 80s, when the companies instead cooperated on routes to alleviate competition. AM eventually went into bankruptcy in 1988 and reemerged a smaller company. A merger was discussed again in the early 90s, when AeroMexico held control of Mexicana. Then later in the decade when a holding group (Cintra) was formed to control AM, MX and AeroPeru.

Rumors were always flying that AM and MX would become one someday, and look who survived!

Tomas SJC
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USPIT10L
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:59 am

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 63):
Quoting flyjoe (Reply 49):
I completely forgot about the UA/HP thing.

Yep, UA wanted additional Airbus to fight MetroJet and US at IAD at the time. Then Wolf came calling offering US for the taking.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:54 pm

After PA sold their Pacific routes to UA, DL and Northwest came very close to merging, because NW needed more domestic feed to fight UA. NW would have taken over DL, because NW was much stronger financially than DL. I've read that DL wanted $5 / share more than NW was willing to pay.

Of course, DL went on to buy WA, NW went on to buy Republic, and DL, WA, NW, and RC wound up merging in the end.

In the 1950s, before Northeast was awarded routes to Florida, DL agreed to merge with Northeast. The CAB did not approve the merger, and DL wound up merging with Chicago & Southern instead. Two decades later, DL finally consummated their merger with NE.
 
ckfred
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:19 pm

NW was planning to buy the original Midway Airlines (ML). Then, NW did a due dilligence and didn't like what it saw. It backed out, and ML wound up filing for bankruptcy.

NW and ML were competing on MDW-MSP. I'm not sure if NW had started service on MDW-DTW, which was one of ML's orginal routes.

Besides ML's large operation at MDW, NW would have gotten a good-sized PHL operation (buying the old EA operation at PHL is what got ML in financial troubles) and slots into HPN (which ML acquired with the Air Florida merger).

ML had DC-9s and MD-80s, which NW was also flying. The oddballs would have been the old Air Florida 732s.
 
justinlee
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:21 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 78):
Air China has too much of a say in the merger and the Government has too much control. Also, CX really doesn't want it.

In return, China Eastern acquired Shanghai Airlines and kicked the Star Alliance out of SHA  
 
PSAjet17
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:34 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 74):
Related to all this was Atlantic Coast acquiring PSA, Allegheny, and Piedmont.

Don't know where you got this info from but here is the chronological list of Allegheny/US Air, PSA and Piedmont.

1979 : Allegheny changes its name to USAir to reflect its expanding network.
1987 : Pacific Southwest Airlines of San Diego becomes a wholly-owned subsidiary of USAir Group in May.
Piedmont Airlines, becomes a subsidiary of USAir Group in November 1987.
1988 : PSA is merged into USAir.
1989 : Piedmont is integrated into USAir,

http://www.usairways.com/en-US/about.../pressroom/history/chronology.html
 
PITrules
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:57 pm

Quoting PSAJet17 (Reply 84):
Don't know where you got this info from but here is the chronological list of Allegheny/US Air, PSA and Piedmont.

1979 : Allegheny changes its name to USAir to reflect its expanding network.
1987 : Pacific Southwest Airlines of San Diego becomes a wholly-owned subsidiary of USAir Group in May.
Piedmont Airlines, becomes a subsidiary of USAir Group in November 1987.
1988 : PSA is merged into USAir.
1989 : Piedmont is integrated into USAir,

I'm referring to today's Allegheny. Piedmont, and PSA.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/03/bu...al-to-buy-3-regional-airlines.html
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Mainliner
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:37 am

I read a recent interview with Ed Colodny, former CEO of US, saying that US was in merger talks with CO in the 90's. I hadn't heard this one before.
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FWAERJ
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:43 am

Quoting Mainliner (Reply 86):
I read a recent interview with Ed Colodny, former CEO of US, saying that US was in merger talks with CO in the 90's. I hadn't heard this one before.

Neither have I, so I presume this was before Gordon Bethune became CEO of CO.
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mayor
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:30 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 81):
After PA sold their Pacific routes to UA, DL and Northwest came very close to merging, because NW needed more domestic feed to fight UA. NW would have taken over DL, because NW was much stronger financially than DL.

Exactly what time period are we talking about, here? PA sold the Pacific operation to UA in April of '85 and DL announced the merger with Western in September of '86. DL was doing very well financially around this time so I can't imagine that NW was doing any better than DL was.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:41 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 88):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 81):
After PA sold their Pacific routes to UA, DL and Northwest came very close to merging, because NW needed more domestic feed to fight UA. NW would have taken over DL, because NW was much stronger financially than DL.

Exactly what time period are we talking about, here? PA sold the Pacific operation to UA in April of '85 and DL announced the merger with Western in September of '86. DL was doing very well financially around this time so I can't imagine that NW was doing any better than DL was.

Fall 1985, prior to the RC / NW deal.

Although DL was doing well, NW was doing just as well, and had less debt on their balance sheet (a legacy of Don Nyrop).
 
1stfl94
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:28 pm

A few more I can think of

VS-BMI- plenty of discussions in the search when this became a possibility and why it never happened
VS-Dan Air- Virgin were on the verge of a deal with Dan Air but pulled out at the last minute leaving BA to take them over
BA-KLM tie up that nearly happened in 2000/2001

B.Cal had a few merger proposals during 1986/1987 before merging with BA. They had an offer from British Midland which they rejected, another from Air Europe and looked into a tie up with UTA French Airlines. SAS was the final competitor but lost out.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Proposed Airline Mergers That Never Happened

Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:54 am

Way back in the day, there was talk several times about an Eastern National merger. I'm not sure who would have been the surviving carrier.
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