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DIJKKIJK
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Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:14 pm

It seems to me that this guy almost landed on the grass. He seems to be way off centerline. Can someone correct me?


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roseflyer
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:17 pm

I think it is an optical illusion. Look at the shadow. He might be a bit off but it is mostly perspective.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
iFlyLOTs
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:20 pm

He hasn't touched down yet, he still looks 20-30 feet off the ground to me.
"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Thread starter):
It seems to me that this guy almost landed on the grass. He seems to be way off centerline. Can someone correct me?

It's more an optical illusion (with the low winter sun light) than a grass landing. And it's not yet on the ground.

[Edited 2013-01-13 12:23:12]
 
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falstaff
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:28 pm

I would like to know how the photographer got the shot. That is a great photo.
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rahulrahul
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:30 pm

great shot, it seems that it is an illusion.

Rahul
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flyingalex
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:38 pm

As others have said, it's an optical illusion.

I can assure you, any LH pilot who really was that far off centerline so close to the ground would go around immediately!

Quoting falstaff (Reply 4):
I would like to know how the photographer got the shot. That is a great photo.

Probably in a small aircraft flying just over the top of the control zone.

EDIT: Actually, the picture caption says 1500 feet above, so probably within the control zone, but flying across the field with the tower's permission.

[Edited 2013-01-13 12:42:19]
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KLAXAirport
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:50 am

Yes, this is an optical illusion. This is at 1,500 on the Los Angeles "Mini-Route" which allows for you to fly over LAX at 1,500 feet with the Tower's permission.

Cheers,
KLAXAirport   
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:23 am

Quoting KLAXAirport (Reply 7):
Yes, this is an optical illusion. This is at 1,500 on the Los Angeles "Mini-Route" which allows for you to fly over LAX at 1,500 feet with the Tower's permission.

I've always wondered how all those amazing LAX shots were taken. I guess, now I know.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
freeze3192
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:37 am

Looks like he's right around 50 feet to me.
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cschleic
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:18 am

One can charter a helicopter, too, to hover over LAX for spotting and photography. There are specific spots over the airport for this.
 
COS777
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:41 am

Assuming he's on the ILS glide slope, the threshold crossing height is 56 feet.
 
wilco737
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:51 am

The airplane is not off centerline. I am pretty sure that my coworkers are on centerline and did a proper landing 

In LAX you can rent a helicopter and fly between the runways and take pictures. This is allowed and even promoted on their website that you can rent a heli for plane sptting.

wilco737
  
 
KELPkid
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:10 am

Quoting COS777 (Reply 11):
Assuming he's on the ILS glide slope, the threshold crossing height is 56 feet.

You mean the height of the G/S antenna on the belly above the threshhold? That probably puts the cockpit about 80-85' up on a 747  
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
wilco737
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:27 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 13):
You mean the height of the G/S antenna on the belly above the threshhold? That probably puts the cockpit about 80-85' up on a 747  

On our chart there is a threshold crossing height (TCH) shown. So that you know how high you should be above the threshold.

Yes, on a 748 you are a lot higher, but the main gear counts 

wilco737
  
 
AR385
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:35 am

It is an optical illusion. It has to be. Otherwise that plane would have gone around, or would have busted a few tires on landing. And we can´t have that on a new 747-800i.
 
steex
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:41 am

That is a spectacular photo. The combination of the very crisp, vivid colors and angle make it look like it could very well be an advertising image for a model aircraft!
 
thijs1984
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:05 am

Looks like the picture was taken (as seen from the LH 747) from directly above the sun. Making this potical illusion.
 
Gasman
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:17 am

It's not an optical illusion at all. The sun is above and slightly to the left of the aircraft. This would place the left wingtip at a slightly more leftwards position that is indicated by its shadow. The shadow itself is just to the right of the centreline, therefore placing the wingtip around or close to it. This aircraft is way off. Obviously it had time to correct sufficiently.
 
wilco737
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:23 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 18):
This aircraft is way off. Obviously it had time to correct sufficiently.

At this height, there is simply not enough time to correct your 'so far off' situation. I am flying those airplanes in real life and if I am that far off (like you say), then there is no other option than going around.
According to your explanation it has to land next to the runway.
At this heigt, if you take more than 8° bank, the wingtip will hit the ground.

Here some other impressions of LAX and air to ground pictures:


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Photo © Kavin Kowsari - AirTeamImages
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Andrew Hunt - AirTeamImages


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Photo © Nicholas Young
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mario Aurich - AirTeamImages


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Photo © Peter Van Dyke - PHX Spotters
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alevik

 

[Edited 2013-01-14 00:29:55]

wilco737
 airplane 


[Edited 2013-01-14 00:30:24]
 
Gasman
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:45 am

None of these pictures look anything like that of the 748. The right wing is brightly illuminated (meaning the sun wasn't *so* low in the sky as to throw the shadow way off to the right). Therefore the shadow gives a reasonable approximation of the a/c's position, and this aircraft is definitely well away from the centerline. Look also at the space between the triangular threshold marking and the fuselage. I can't explain the fact it didn't go-round or crash, but it doesn't change the fact.
 
LH526
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:45 am

On a technical sidenote I hear Lufthansa Technik maintenance staff complain of just how badly the B748i is able to fly straight ahead. Every single airframe has a heavy Yaw problem needing to be fixed.
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
 
wilco737
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:49 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 20):
Quoting LH526 (Reply 21):

I am flying these things in real life, it is a stable and great airplane. It is a little more direct in the bank than the -400. But for me I am 100% sure that it is not that way off people suggesting here. I would love to see the rest of the pictures the photographer took of that landing and I am sure it landed almost on centerline. Maybe couple inches off. But for sure not off the runway or with the left main gear on the right side of the centerline.

wilco737
  
 
Mr AirNZ
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:57 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 20):
I can't explain the fact it didn't go-round or crash, but it doesn't change the fact.

Occam's razor
 
nuckleuz
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:57 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 20):
I can't explain the fact it didn't go-round or crash

That's because the aircraft is not way off the centerline. It just looks like that because of the angle at which the photo is made. It is not about flying way off the centerline, there is not a pilot in the world who is going to land his 747 when he has this position with respect to the runway the way it looks on the photo.

This is also what makes this photo a beautiful one! It never stops to amaze me how photos like these can fool people.

Quoting Wilco737 (Reply 22):
I am flying these things in real life, it is a stable and great airplane.

It is also a great plane from a passenger point of view  

Grt,
Erik
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:03 am

That plane is bang on centerline, about 50ft above threshold: seen from a distance and from a certain hight, that means it looks as if it is somewhere over the runway's edge, just as the other pictures wilco737 has posted.

Playing with the hight from which you look down to the plane over the runway will move the plane around in relation to the runway.One would have imaged that the concept of perspective would have been widely understood by now: it seems not.

Or is this ANA 777 landing on the runway edge too then?


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bueb0g
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:18 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 20):
None of these pictures look anything like that of the 748. The right wing is brightly illuminated (meaning the sun wasn't *so* low in the sky as to throw the shadow way off to the right). Therefore the shadow gives a reasonable approximation of the a/c's position, and this aircraft is definitely well away from the centerline.

You're almost comically wrong.

Quoting gasman (Reply 20):
I can't explain the fact it didn't go-round or crash,

I can. The a/c was on the centreline.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
CplKlinger
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:03 pm

Quoting gasman (Reply 20):

It's sad that people like this will argue with people like wilco who have demonstrable experience with the subject at hand, and is the reason why some of them end up leaving this site. You are talking to a person who probably has more hours in frame than most of us have as a passenger. 99.9% of the time, I would defer to his experience.
 
crownvic
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:10 pm

I have my doubts as this is more of an optical illusion and Wilco and gasman are right...

[Edited 2013-01-14 04:12:49]

[Edited 2013-01-14 04:14:57]

[Edited 2013-01-14 04:15:23]
 
CplKlinger
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:44 pm

Quoting crownvic (Reply 28):
Wilco is right...

FTFY. There is no way gasman could be right, we'd have heard about the near death experience on the LH flight if it had almost landed in the grass through the media.
 
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mx330
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:02 pm

Hi all,

First of all, thanks to all who have commented on my photo, I appreciate that.

And well... Yes it is an optical illusion.
Here is a shot later on the sequence.

I hope this helps clarify the matter.

Happy landings.

Juan

All Canon! EOS 5D mk III, 8mm, 17-40, 24-105, 70-200 f2.8, 100-400L
 
wilco737
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:03 pm

Quoting mx330 (Reply 30):

THank you very much for posting Juan.

So my faith into my fellow LH Pilots were right. Thank god.

Another stunnin shot.

Thanks.

wilco737
  
 
flyingalex
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:58 pm

There's an easy trick to avoid this error:

On this kind of picture, if you take a ruler (or a piece of paper, or your hand, anything with a straight edge) and hold it parallel to the side of your screen and just in front of the nose gear, the illusion disappears. In every shot, the aircraft are exactly on the centerline, as they should be. And with this trick, you can see it.

Try it on a few of the pictures linked to above, you will see what I mean.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar!
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:10 pm

Quoting thijs1984 (Reply 17):
Making this potical illusion.

Was that a Freudian slip? After all, you ARE in the Netherlands! 
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
nuckleuz
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:11 pm

Quoting mx330 (Reply 30):
Here is a shot later on the sequence.

A bit of topic, but I have to say it. Wow! Another great shot!

Grt,
Erik
 
Avi8r747
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:28 pm

If you look at the nose wheel, you will see that the torque link is completely extended, indicating the tire is not on the ground. As others have said, its on optical illusion. Great picture though, the -8i is beautiful!
 
Unflug
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:39 pm

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 27):
It's sad that people like this will argue with people like wilco who have demonstrable experience with the subject at hand, and is the reason why some of them end up leaving this site. You are talking to a person who probably has more hours in frame than most of us have as a passenger. 99.9% of the time, I would defer to his experience.

To the defense of the "people like this" I'd say that the explanation "otherwise they would have gone around" is not 100% convincing. How do we know that they did not go around?

I think the difficulty here is the fact that the shadow seems to be directly under the aircraft, giving the impression of sunlight from above. To all those not convinced for this very reason I'd suggest to look at the front landing gear. From the lighting on and shadow of the front landing gear it is obvious that the sun is low: accordingly the shadow is not below the aircraft, but far to the right of the aircraft, with the aircraft most probably spot on the centerline...
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:58 pm

Quoting gasman (Reply 20):
The right wing is brightly illuminated (meaning the sun wasn't *so* low in the sky as to throw the shadow way off to the right). Therefore the shadow gives a reasonable approximation of the a/c's position, and this aircraft is definitely well away from the centerline.

Obviously it's been refuted by Juan posting another photo, but let's think about this for a second:

1.) The right wing is fully lit, from the photographer's perspective. All that means is that the sun is at the same or a slightly higher angle than the photographer, if the sun is at his back.

2.) A brief check of Flightaware shows that Lufthansa flight 456 typically arrives between noon and 1 PM. Well, guess what the maximum altitude of the sun is on December 28, 2012 near LAX? You guessed it - about 33 degrees.

Sorry, there's actually no scientifically possible way that the sun can be:

Quoting gasman (Reply 18):
above and slightly to the left of the aircraft
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
dashman
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:57 pm

Quote:
That's because the aircraft is not way off the centerline. It just looks like that because of the angle at which the photo is made.

I agree. It is called a parallax view. No pilot worth his salt would let himself get to that point without going around. If it was as the photographer suggest I suspect we would have read about it in the newspaper. The likely hood of a sucessful landing from that position is pretty slim.
 
CplKlinger
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:02 pm

Quoting Unflug (Reply 36):
To the defense of the "people like this" I'd say that the explanation "otherwise they would have gone around" is not 100% convincing. How do we know that they did not go around?

According to the following

Quoting gasman (Reply 20):
I can't explain the fact it didn't go-round or crash, but it doesn't change the fact.

the fact that it did or did not go around is immaterial. He states as fact that the a/c is well off of centerline, regardless of other cues which would say otherwise. It's the same kind of thinking present in most conspiracy theories like the moon landings, 9/11 and so on. "Because my mind thinks something is wrong, regardless of any facts which state the contrary, that thing is still wrong." This kind of thinking, with regard to our resident experts (of which there are many), is damaging to the discussions here. If there are enough events like this, who is to say they don't get upset and decide to no longer contribute? No one listens anyway, so why continue? I am not saying to blindly accept the content, but at least be open to consider it, and argue on the merits of that which you know.

Anyway, back to the thread. I'm too lazy to look up the required dimensions/formulae, but could simple geometry show that the a/c is near centerline? You would almost have to figure that with the angle of the sun (based off the shadow), if the nose gear was over towards the edge of the runway, that the shadow of the nose gear is in the wrong spot?
 
timz
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:23 pm

Quoting gasman (Reply 18):
The shadow itself is just to the right of the centreline, therefore placing the wingtip around or close to it.

That's where you're wrong. Like he said the sun's altitude is 33 degrees or a bit less, so if the aircraft is on the centerline (with the wingtip 112 ft south of the centerline) the wingtip's shadow will be on the runway centerline if the wingtip is 73 feet above ground. The wingtip is something like 19 ft above the bottom of the wheels, so sounds reasonable.
 
kaitakfan
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:56 pm

Wow... are you guys serious that you don't understand what an optical illusion is? Airliners.net once again never ceases to amaze me.
 
cbphoto
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:07 pm

Quoting kaitakfan (Reply 41):
Wow... are you guys serious that you don't understand what an optical illusion is? Airliners.net once again never ceases to amaze me

Seriously, good grief!

If you look at Juans second photo in the series, you can clearly see the left nose wheel tire is .05 ft off of the centerline to the right, meaning the right main landing gear boogie must be 10 feet to the right of centerline, which means engine #4 was 21ft off of the runway edge, which clearly indicates this aircraft was not on center line and the crew should have gone around. Clearly the media should have gotten a hold of this breaking story, but then again it was not a 787!!!   

On a serious note, it took 42 posts to describe what an optical illusion is. This should have been thought in grade school people!
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
jpmagero
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:16 pm

I think it's obvious that the illusion is due to the angle of the shadow which makes the plane appear to be closer to the ground than it really is. Having said that, I would suggest that if that plane indeed were to land on the grass, we'd be looking at a picture of a 747-8i on the grass, not floating above the runway. Just saying...  
John M - Aussie expat in the US
 
tp1040
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:28 pm

Well, this got beat to death. If some had only looked closely at the image.

Hint to those still not convinced he is on the centerline : look at the shadow of the nose gear.

[Edited 2013-01-14 12:32:22]
 
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jumbojim747
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:29 pm

First off Great shot.
I'm sure the reason behind the optical illusion is the tele photo lens (ZOOM) bringing the background a lot closer then it really is including the edge of the runway its the lens that is creating it.
Cheers
On a wing and a prayer
 
mav75
Posts: 172
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:29 pm

I love watching 19 year old flightsim experts refute the facts when they are presented to them on a silver platter. Not only can they land a 747 better than the carrier's most senior and skilled pilot, but the can also do a better job as CEO.
 
bueb0g
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:51 pm

Quoting kaitakfan (Reply 41):
Wow... are you guys serious that you don't understand what an optical illusion is? Airliners.net once again never ceases to amaze me.

You "guys"? There was one person who thought it wasn't an illusion.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
qfflyer
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:38 pm

RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:59 pm

Quoting gasman (Reply 20):
I can't explain the fact it didn't go-round or crash, but it doesn't change the fact.

doesn't change the fact ....you are wrong......will we see any apology?
One very good quote from Mark Twain that people should remember "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

Quoting mx330 (Reply 30):
And well... Yes it is an optical illusion.Here is a shot later on the sequence.
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:22 pm

Quoting Wilco737 (Reply 14):
On our chart there is a threshold crossing height (TCH) shown. So that you know how high you should be above the threshold.

Question for you, Wilco:

I know that in Europe, it is common practice for airline crews to use the ILS (where available) for all landings, irregardless of the weather conditions. Here in the US, airliners are commonly issued a visual approach when the weather outside is clear enough to warrant it. Would LH be tracking the ILS at LAX on a day where it is obviously "severe clear"?   I would imagine that they were issued a visual approach to RWY 25L in the instance of this picture...and I have no doubt you guys can follow the VASI/PAPI (and unless you were doing an autoland, you'd be on the controls at this point of the approach anyways).
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)

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