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vikkyvik
Posts: 12594
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:11 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 49):
and I have no doubt you guys can follow the VASI/PAPI

Unless they've recently added it, 25L and R don't have VASI/PAPI. Doesn't seem to hamper the pilots too much.  

24L/R only got PAPI a few years ago, if memory serves.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
earlynff
Posts: 126
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:08 am

I dare to say, the aircraft was even LEFT of center line. (maybe 3-4 inches   )

Too long to explain now, it´s very late in my night and tomorrow I travel.

Depending on how much nonsense is added here, I might do it wednesday 
 
brons2
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:23 am

Quoting Wilco737 (Reply 22):
It is a little more direct in the bank than the -400

Can you explain what you mean in this statement in laymen's terms? Do you mean it responds to control inputs more quickly in a bank than does the -400?
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
Avi8r747
Posts: 41
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:06 am

For anyone who still believes that this aircraft touched down early, or is sitting in the grass, I think you will find over whelming evidence provided by very knowledgeable people.

If you are still not convinced, and need solid proof to change your mind, then I challenge you to open the picture and look at it through the large setting. If this aircraft were indeed on the ground, then please explain why the torque link is fully extended on the nose gear, as I stated earlier. ( The "V" shape arm the points forward on the nose gear) This alone indicates that at least the nose wheel is airborne. Had this aircraft touched down early, there would be debris on the runway from broken thresh hold lights, along with perhaps grass and dirt pulled onto the blast pad. Now I know first hand that the 747 has a good turning radius on the ground, but to turn 90 degrees from the taxi way to line up as such is far to tight. Lastly, refer to Wilco photo in reply 19, specifically the ANA 773, as that is quite similar, or MX330 in reply 30 to see IN FACT that this very aircraft touched down perfectly center on the runway.

If this as well as what the other 40+ reply's doesn't change your opinion, then I'm afraid you know something no one else does. This has been beet to death however.
 
wilco737
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:27 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 49):
I know that in Europe, it is common practice for airline crews to use the ILS (where available) for all landings, irregardless of the weather conditions. Here in the US, airliners are commonly issued a visual approach when the weather outside is clear enough to warrant it. Would LH be tracking the ILS at LAX on a day where it is obviously "severe clear"?   I would imagine that they were issued a visual approach to RWY 25L in the instance of this picture...and I have no doubt you guys can follow the VASI/PAPI (and unless you were doing an autoland, you'd be on the controls at this point of the approach anyways).

Our policy is: if there is an ILS and it is operational USE IT. Even if we are cleared for the visual approach in perfect visibility we set the ILS and follow the LOC and G/S. Why shouldn't we use it? It is a very exact way to fly down to the runway.

Quoting brons2 (Reply 52):
Can you explain what you mean in this statement in laymen's terms? Do you mean it responds to control inputs more quickly in a bank than does the -400?

Yes. The -8i is very direct. It turns quicker if you make control inputs. The -400 takes a little longer.
During crosswind the -8i is a little trickier than the -400 due to the long fuselage. And you are sitting even further in front of the main gear, so you are sitting left of centerline while your main gear is touching down on centerline.

wilco737
  
 
bueb0g
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:58 am

Quoting Wilco737 (Reply 54):
Why shouldn't we use it? It is a very exact way to fly down to the runway.

When flying into Liverpool, EasyJet crews will often take visual approaches rather than the ILS. Just a chance to brush up on some stick & rudder, no FD flying. Perfectly safe, keeps skills up, and a lot of fun; obviously I understand the "use the ILS" policy but still, it's not black & white "ILS is better".
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
Pihero
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:48 pm

Quoting mx330 (Reply 30):
I hope this helps clarify the matter.
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
I think it is an optical illusion. Look at the shadow. He might be a bit off but it is mostly perspective.

It is an optical illusion of sorts. MX330 is obviously using a long telephoto lens - or a Zoom at a long setting - and in this case, the perspective is "squashed " and it is very difficult to put the background / foreground in perspective.
The plane is very much on centerline as proven by the second -beautiful - shot.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 49):
Here in the US, airliners are commonly issued a visual approach when the weather outside is clear enough to warrant it.

In most occasions, being issued a visual approach clearance allows ATC to speed up the approach, meaning they can accomodate many more airplanes which do away with a lengthy procedure. The ILS is always there, so that we can have a more accurate alignment on short final. Do not mistake using tghe ILS as a further way of improving one's landing with an ILS instrument procedure.


Quoting bueb0g (Reply 55):

When flying into Liverpool, EasyJet crews will often take visual approaches rather than the ILS. Just a chance to brush up on some stick & rudder, no FD flying. Perfectly safe, keeps skills up, and a lot of fun; obviously I understand the "use the ILS" policy but still, it's not black & white "ILS is better".

Most aircrews do the same on that sort of plane. It certainly doesn't mean that the ILS isn't tuned as a cross-monitoring tool.The number of possible visual illusions / glide-affecting phenomena is too great to run the risk of a blotched landing.
Lastly, an approach onto a runway without an inserted landing navaid is very annoying as the system woul remind you that the programming is amiss.
On long haul, when a pilot has the experience of a maximum of two landings per month, plus the fatigue at the end of a long sector, we use every trick to help us land.
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CARST
Posts: 1556
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:16 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 56):
On long haul, when a pilot has the experience of a maximum of two landings per month, plus the fatigue at the end of a long sector, we use every trick to help us land.

Two landings per month? You only fly four segments per month? (Assuming you are doing take-off and landings half of the segments flown, changing with the FO.)

Or did you wanted to say weaks?
 
wilco737
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:52 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 55):
When flying into Liverpool, EasyJet crews will often take visual approaches rather than the ILS. Just a chance to brush up on some stick & rudder, no FD flying. Perfectly safe, keeps skills up, and a lot of fun; obviously I understand the "use the ILS" policy but still, it's not black & white "ILS is better".


You can do handfly an ILS as well. F/D off and then fly it manually. But into a very busy airport with loads of traffic it increases the workload incredibly.

Quoting CARST (Reply 57):
Two landings per month? You only fly four segments per month? (Assuming you are doing take-off and landings half of the segments flown, changing with the FO.)

Or did you wanted to say weaks?

Well, if there are 3 pilots on that trip with only 2 flights, one doesn't get a landing. So there are times where you don't land often. In January I will do only 2 landings, maybe 3 if lucky. February will look similar. Most landings I had in one month is 5. But that was a lucky month 

wilco737
  
 
rcair1
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:15 pm

Come on guys - the a/c is clearly way off the center line

It is about 50 ft UP - that is "off' the center line"   

Seriously - if the shadow was being cast directly below the aircraft (the sun above it), then the nose gear would be in the shadow. It is not - it is well illuminated. The only way that nose gear can be lit is for the sun to be at an angle. As has been said - the sun was almost behind the photographer.
rcair1
 
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neutrino
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:47 pm

Quoting Wilco737 (Reply 58):
Quoting CARST (Reply 57):
Two landings per month? You only fly four segments per month? (Assuming you are doing take-off and landings half of the segments flown, changing with the FO.)

Or did you wanted to say weaks?

Well, if there are 3 pilots on that trip with only 2 flights, one doesn't get a landing. So there are times where you don't land often. In January I will do only 2 landings, maybe 3 if lucky. February will look similar. Most landings I had in one month is 5. But that was a lucky month

wilco737

  
A major reason why SQ put their ULH A345s on short hops to Jakarta in between their LAX/EWR operations is so that the pilots have more oportunities at landings.
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mav75
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2000 10:02 am

RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:25 pm

Quoting Wilco737 (Reply 22):
I am flying these things in real life, it is a stable and great airplane. It is a little more direct in the bank than the -400. But for me I am 100% sure that it is not that way off people suggesting here. I would love to see the rest of the pictures the photographer took of that landing and I am sure it landed almost on centerline. Maybe couple inches off. But for sure not off the runway or with the left main gear on the right side of the centerline.
Quoting Wilco737 (Reply 54):
Yes. The -8i is very direct. It turns quicker if you make control inputs. The -400 takes a little longer.
During crosswind the -8i is a little trickier than the -400 due to the long fuselage. And you are sitting even further in front of the main gear, so you are sitting left of centerline while your main gear is touching down on centerline.

Wilco, I've got a question. IIRC, the 747-8 has FBW controls. Could that, coupled with the more traditonal control setup on the -400 account for the -8's increased responsiveness?
 
wilco737
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RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:17 pm

Quoting mav75 (Reply 61):
Wilco, I've got a question. IIRC, the 747-8 has FBW controls. Could that, coupled with the more traditonal control setup on the -400 account for the -8's increased responsiveness?

Could be yes. But I cannot give you a proper explanation why this is like that. It was pretty obvious when I had my first flight.
Apart from that it is a great airplane to fly. I really enjoy it. And it lands almost the same as the -400.

Yes, I am in love with the Boeing 747-8 intercontinental   

wilco737
  
 
bueb0g
Posts: 656
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:57 pm

RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:17 pm

Quoting Wilco737 (Reply 58):
You can do handfly an ILS as well. F/D off and then fly it manually.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. But you'd generally still be following the diamonds in this case; still not quite as "basic" as a full visual approach. But as I said, I understand the rule.

Also, quick question for you Wilco; am I right in thinking that LH generally advises taking the A/THR off when you take the A/P off for landing?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 56):
Most aircrews do the same on that sort of plane. It certainly doesn't mean that the ILS isn't tuned as a cross-monitoring tool.

Right, got you.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 56):
On long haul, when a pilot has the experience of a maximum of two landings per month, plus the fatigue at the end of a long sector, we use every trick to help us land.

Good point, that slipped my mind. Shorthaul guys definitely get a lot more landing practice. How often do long haul pilots end up missing the 90 day rule?
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Is This 748 Way Off The Centerline?

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:40 am

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 63):
How often do long haul pilots end up missing the 90 day rule?

Almost never : Every pilot's expêrience is closely monitored. The captain knows exactly where every pilot on his crew stands regarding recency.
To be clear on this subject, three monthly trips on long haul (just imagine one CDG-HKG + one CDG -SIN
+ one CDG - LAX will take you to 6 x 12 hrs = 72 hrs, close to the maximum one could achieve in a month as another trip would take you well above max limit. That six sectors you'd share with another six pilots... If you're unlucky enough to fly with someone just coming back from leave, there's not a lot left for you...

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 63):
you'd generally still be following the diamonds in this case; still not quite as "basic" as a full visual approach.

Bear in mind that airliune flying is very much "instrument" flying : we always have an instrument scan, whatever the conditions one look outside / one inside .... all the time. Moreover, on modern planes, deselection of the FDs are followed by flying Track / Flight path vector - i.e "the bird"- .
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