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777fan
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ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding

Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:18 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 44):
F9animal is being sarcastic / trolling the thread, 777fan. He's on record as saying the 787 fleet should be grounded worldwide as unsafe.

Thanks - the flu apparently has affected my sarcasm detection system...in either case, the link will help jog other users' memories.

777fan
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SCQ83
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ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding

Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:18 am

Is this the first 787 with an emergency evacuation on a commercial flight?
 
rampbro
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ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding

Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:22 am

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 22):
I wonder if anyone has done a correlation between which aircraft are having issues and those that were subject to major reworking and long delays in a semi finished condition - or is that all of them currently in service?

I wonder the same thing. I just don't want to crunch all the numbers.

Another question is how many hours do these aircraft have in service at this point? Is it more or less than the pilot test aircraft accrued traipsing all over the western United States?
 
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azncsa4qf744er
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ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding

Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:23 am

Rumor has it ANA just announced grounding their fleet of B787-8, can any insider confirm?
 
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PITingres
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:25 am

Quoting smolt (Reply 49):
I saw the burned-out lithium ion battery of JAL 787 in the internet. It does not allow us much optimistic view. I wonder this is the first time for lithium ion battery to be used in circumstance where air pressure is very frequently go up and down. When you send electric items such as digital camera or cell phone at the Japanese post office you will be asked if your package includes battery or not. Postal lady says Air transport is banned for battery including package and for that it takes a little longer before delivery because of land transportation.

When you ship your digital camera or cell phone it's not in a containment box designed to contain a battery fire. The 787 battery IS in a containment box, and from the pictures you cite, it seems like the containment did a great job. As rcair1 pointed out on a different thread, the paint wasn't even badly scorched.

If (if!) there is a problem of some sort with the containment design or manufacture, it will of course have to be corrected. But it is not correct to assume that Li batteries are automatically unsafe for use on an airliner, if properly designed in.

There's a lot hotter fire in the engine and nobody seems to worry about that too much.  
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spacecadet
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:25 am

Quoting rampbro (Reply 52):
Is it more or less than the pilot test aircraft accrued traipsing all over the western United States?

Oh it would be much more at this point. This plane, if the reg is what people are saying it is, has been in service for a year on domestic runs all over Japan. It's probably got about 4,000 hours and 1,500 cycles or so by now.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
PHX787
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:25 am

http://www.japantoday.com/category/n...kes-emergency-landing-in-takamatsu


Not good. Boeing needs to figure this out.

Apparently by next week the ministry of transport is supposed to release a comprehensive review by next week



Damn, if only I had my MacBook I could keep up on this better and report in. I'm so limited by my iPad.

Guys i will try my best to get more from my contacts in Japan.
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ikramerica
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ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding

Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:26 am

Quoting CYLW (Reply 48):
I don't think any crew would order an emergency evacuation based on a smell. Emergency evacs are dangerous in their own right. Injuries are common on these types of evacuations.

There must have been more than just a smell of smoke and a battery indication.

Over-reaction out of fear is not unknown to pilots. Over-reaction/mis-reading the situation is a main cause of pilot error.

At this point, all the hype has everyone freaked out.

Smoke and battery indication might have been all it was. But if you think your plane is on fire from the inside, do you just taxi back and deplane as usual? It's not like an engine fire where you can disconnect the fuel and have the fire trucks douse it.

This goes back to my comment about the UA diversion. Boeing needs to install a camera in that rear E bay for visual feedback in the cockpit, because as it stands now, both real and imagined problems are going to lead to over-reactions on the side of safety, and that could lead to injury itself.

We've now had "fires" in two different locations in that bay. I don't blame pilots for being spooked and taking the maximum precaution. But if it reaches the point of hysteria, then what?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
ThomasCook
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ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding

Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:26 am

Quoting azncsa4qf744er (Reply 53):
Rumor has it ANA just announced grounding their fleet of B787-8, can any insider confirm?

The moderators just deleted my separate topic on this as apparently a fleet grounding and an emergency landing are the same topic...right...;

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...na-grounding-idUST9N09U05G20130116

ThomasCook
 
9w748capt
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:27 am

Quoting eksath (Thread starter):

Why "episode" in the thread title? Makes it seem like this is reality TV or something. Oh wait, I suppose it kind of is  
 
ZKOJH
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:28 am

Sky News are reporting ANA have grounded all 17 dream-liners now, What is going on? did we have so many problems with the A380?

http://news.sky.com/story/1038642/an...nds-all-17-dreamliners-after-fault
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PHX787
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:37 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 60):

When the 380 suffered those engine problems they were briefly grounded too.
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a380900
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:38 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 60):
did we have so many problems with the A380?

In one word: no. The entire 787 has had more issues than the A380. The "flying" part of the A380 has always been sound and was only 6 months late or so. Fitting the cabins were another issue altogether.

One has to mention that the Qantas engine issue has grounded many planes for some time but not all at once so it was not as spectacular. Also it was a RR thing. GE A380 could still fly...
 
rsmith6621a
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:38 am

By this time tomorrow the FAA will ground all 787s until Boeing fixes all issues with this aircraft.
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AFGMEL
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:39 am

Grounding the whole fleet sounds like ANA are worried.

I am all for pilots erring on the side of extreme caution when it comes to smoke and fires. Nobody wants a repeat of Swiss 111.

How often to these fire events happen on other types of aircraft? My logic tells me if this was a normal event there wouldn't be a fleet grounding. Happy to learn however.
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ssteve
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ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding

Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:41 am

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 59):
Why "episode" in the thread title?

I assume to make clear it's a new incident.
 
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eksath
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:44 am

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 59):
Why "episode" in the thread title? Makes it seem like this is reality TV or something. Oh wait, I suppose it kind of is  

The way things have been going over the last week or so, it seems that this is a serialized drama (either imagined or actual) hence I used the term "episode" for this thread title. Sadly, there will probably be something else in the near future, if the laws of probability follow its course. My hope is that it is a mundane issue. Unfortunately, it will not stop the press from jumping on it hence the next episode of the 787 saga.
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spacecadet
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ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding

Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:44 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 57):
Over-reaction out of fear is not unknown to pilots. Over-reaction/mis-reading the situation is a main cause of pilot error.

I would be very careful about even appearing to accuse ANA pilots of overreacting. The pressure in Japan is so far in the opposite direction that this is *extremely* rare - if anything, Japanese pilots err too far on the other side. If there's a way of saving company resources and not creating a public spectacle, they'll find it.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
PHX787
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:44 am

In the air currently is the ANA flight from SEA and one en route to FRA. Anyone know if that return flight is going to happen or is it just going to repo back?
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bioyuki
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ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding

Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:50 am

JL is reportedly grounding their fleet of 788s as well:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-...o-ground-entire-dreamliner-fleets/
Next flight: LX 39/564: SFO-ZRH-NCE
 
a300
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:54 am

I flew on two of UAL 's 787s this month (LAX-IAH-LAX). Both aircraft had been delivered less than a month before. I was generally unimpressed by the interior of the 787 (I guess I had developed too much expectation). It looks like a 767 with bunch of funky lights, windows and toilets. On the return flight, two rows of three seats each were cordoned off. One of the pilots said over the PA that seats are intentionally blocked because their oxygen masks don't work.

On positive side: I did notice a higher cabin air humidity than the more conventional types.

On less Boeing and more UA issues: The economy (plus at exit) seats were just as uncomfortable as those on the 767. While the content of the IFE was excellent, my unit kept freezing all flight long.

Undoubtedly this is a revolutionary plane, with markedly lower fuel burn, etc. So far at least, I have been under-impressed by it as a passenger.
UA Boeing 787-8 ship 0905, 12JAN2013
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flood
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:55 am

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 63):
By this time tomorrow the FAA will ground all 787s until Boeing fixes all issues with this aircraft.

At this point the extent of the grounding only appears to cover the necessary time for fleet-wide inspections. Jon O tweeted that ANA hasn't decided yet on whether ANA will resume operations on Thursday.

Quoting bioyuki (Reply 69):
JL is reportedly grounding their fleet of 788s as well:

I was just about to raise the question if they would follow suit... and am not surprised. If anything, merely from a local PR standpoint they're left with little choice.
 
bioyuki
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:57 am

Quoting flood (Reply 71):
was just about to raise the question if they would follow suit... and am not surprised. If anything, merely from a local PR standpoint they're left with little choice.

I'm not surprised either considering this is Japanese airlines we're talking about...出る杭は打たれる: the nail that sticks out gets hammered down

[Edited 2013-01-15 18:58:27]
Next flight: LX 39/564: SFO-ZRH-NCE
 
AA94
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:57 am

ANA

According to ANA, their entire fleet of 787s is grounded until further notice.

Once NH203 reaches FRA, it will remain on ground there. It will not return back to Tokyo.

All other flights planned with the 787 for 16JAN are cancelled indefinitely.

ANA presser began at 0230 GMT / 1130 JST.

JAL

JAL has followed suit and cancelled all 787 flights planned for 16JAN.

JL719 NRT-SIN will be operated by 777 on 16JAN.

JAL HND - PEK services will be operated by 777 through 18JAN.

JAL has only announced cancellations for 16JAN; no word on 787 operations after 16JAN.

General

According to multiple news sources, reports of smoke in the cabin are UNCONFIRMED as of yet.

In other news, LOT starts 787 service on WAW-ORD on 16JAN.




[Edited 2013-01-15 19:02:21]

[Edited 2013-01-15 19:04:33]
 
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a36001
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:02 am

O boy! It's one thing to have EIS teething trouble, they are expected, it is however IMHO a very different thing to have smoke in cabin, emergency landing, evacuation soon after landing, and then the grounding of a newly introduced type of aircraft. This is not good.

I love the 787 and want it to suceed, and I have every confidence in it and Boeing, but when they have to start evac's and fleet groundings, at what point do the teething troubles turn into major problems.  
 
ordwaw
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ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding

Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:04 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 32):
Guys! This is totally normal. Its a new airplane. Things like this happen. Probably another arc or battery containment. Nothing big.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 44):
F9animal is being sarcastic / trolling the thread, 777fan.

I know it is sarcastic ... yet having seen the same message in a second or third thread within a week or so makes you think that some of us enthusiasts may be downplaying the impact and what is really happening.

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 58):
I don't blame pilots for being spooked and taking the maximum precaution. But if it reaches the point of hysteria, then what?

I do not think pilots are being spooked. My understanding is they are strictly following their operational manuals. And with the plane being new these manuals may still be in version 1.x, which I would assume errs on the safe side and the below ...

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 42):
This to me is the most likely scenario. Battery malfunction msg combined with "smell" (likely reported by F/A)=divert and evac ASAP.

is most likely what I would I agree is happening too.

Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 64):
I am all for pilots erring on the side of extreme caution when it comes to smoke and fires. Nobody wants a repeat of Swiss 111.

Couldn't agree more ... and again, they are most likely not erring but following the OM (which at this time is erring .on the safe side)

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 63):
By this time tomorrow the FAA will ground all 787s until Boeing fixes all issues with this aircraft.

Considering that B788 is already under FAA investigation, and ANA has decided to ground its fleet, JAL may follow the path, so 1/2 of flying 788's will be grounded, and then why not to be on the safe side and ground all 788's until end of investigation.
 
PHX787
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:07 am

Will NH/Japan's MoT send someone to FRA?


Yomiuri is saying this is indefinite. We could be talking about a 2-3 week grounding potentially.

[Edited 2013-01-15 19:11:17]
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chrisnh
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:09 am

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 16):
I am truly surprised to see all this teething problems for the 787, considering how much time Boeing had to work on the plane and its systems.

I agree. But I had one Boeing apologist declare that we should expect these teething problems EVEN THOUGH the plane was YEARS late and was flying test flights almost around the clock. THAT is where your 'teething' should occur, right? Otherwise, why have a test program? So they can go up and draw sky letters spelling out '787' across the USA?
 
PHX787
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:35 am

Looks like the forums are back and the thread was renamed. Any more updates?




I would like to rant and rave about how poor USAToday, FOX, and MSNBC are reporting on this issue. It's NHK, not NTV. It's the 787, not a 767. It's Takamatsu, not Takayama (although takayama is a beautiful town.)

Edits: looks like those articles have had some corrected.

[Edited 2013-01-15 19:42:01]
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laxboeingman
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:37 am

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/15/travel...gency-landing/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Here is another link. This is serious and not the first battery problem for the 787. I hope Boeing can get the problem fixed quickly.

laxboeingman
The opinions I post are mine and not of any organization I am affiliated with.
 
Cubsrule
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ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding

Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:41 am

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 77):
But I had one Boeing apologist declare that we should expect these teething problems EVEN THOUGH the plane was YEARS late and was flying test flights almost around the clock.

How many teething problems are acceptable? Is the 777 a bad airplane because it had a very rough EIS?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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kanban
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:45 am

Hey an A333 had smoke in the cabin today.. in Tokyo no less.. where's the hysteria?
 
StuckInCA
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:48 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 44):
F9animal is being sarcastic / trolling the thread, 777fan. He's on record as saying the 787 fleet should be grounded worldwide as unsafe.

I thought he was a Boeing employee too. Maybe my memory is fading.

Hope they sort this out. Smoke and fire (not this flight so far as I know) are not a good thing.

[Edited 2013-01-15 19:54:23]
 
ely747
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:51 am

This ain't funny any more. Regardless of bad reports coming in last weeks to me the 787 is a beautiful piece of engineering and I am definitely looking forward to take a flight on one of them ...

[Edited 2013-01-15 19:57:34]
 
flylonghaul
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:55 am

I must say I'm rather pleased I decided not to fly LO to ORD. I was booking purely as it was the 787.

As doubtful as I usually am that nothing will happen in flight. This is just one issue too many for comfort on a trans Atlantic.

I very much hope that this is a relatively easy fix and doesn't further delay deliveries.
Flying for Pleasure
 
ikramerica
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:56 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 81):

Exactly my point. At this point pilots are spooked. Sorry if this isn't Pc because pilots are supposed to have nerves of steel and all, but everyone gets spooked. If you don't have confidence in your equipment... If I were a pilot I would be doubting the equipment at this point too.

[Edited 2013-01-15 20:00:13]
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
F9Animal
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:57 am

Guys... I am confident that this airplane is safe. It is a very reliable airplane. The media, the crews, and the passengers are overreacting.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
ordwaw
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:59 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 81):
Hey an A333 had smoke in the cabin today.. in Tokyo no less.. where's the hysteria?

There isn't.

- The A333 aircraft taxied to the gate on its own power rather than stopping in the middle of the airport and having people evacuated via slides on B788.
- There have been close to 1,000 A333's built with say 600+ in service Vs. say 50 B788s in service
- Media loves B788 and A333 is old news
 
PHX787
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:00 am

Updated article from Japan Today. I trust this source best.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/n...kes-emergency-landing-in-takamatsu
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Lufthansa411
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:02 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 81):

Hey an A333 had smoke in the cabin today.. in Tokyo no less.. where's the hysteria?

When the 787 has 925+ frames produced and has proven itself a safe and reliable aircraft overall then we can start wondering why there is so much hype regarding these incidents. In the mean time, I think it is appropriate to question things.
Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
 
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7BOEING7
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:04 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 88):
Updated article from Japan Today. I trust this source best.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/n...matsu

Didn't mention anything about smoke or smelling something.
 
trent1000
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:05 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 81):
an A333 had smoke in the cabin today.. in Tokyo no less.. where's the hysteria?

Perhaps so, but the A333 is a proven workhorse and common aircraft type.
The 787 has been extensively tested, but has yet to be proven to be as reliable and safe in service as have other aircraft types.
But the 787 is also unique in some ways, so there might be issues that other aircraft don't experience short and long-term.

JAL has also grounded their 787 fleet.

It's worthwhile mentioning that today's ANA evacuation saw one minor (back) injury [reported on CNNj ]. I think that demonstrates that a normal cross section of the travelling public were able to safely escape in a real situation versus a test, further validating that safety aspect.

2012 was the safest year ever in world commercial aviation - easily Googled fact. The current attention to the 787 means that safety is taken seriously by the manufacturer, airlines, the media and the travelling public. A good thing, no?
 
Norcal773
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:07 am

Ooh boy, Boeing sure need a break with this thing now. It'll be interesting to see if the other operators ground their Dreamliners too and my guess is they will for inspection but then again inspection means they know what they're looking for.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 28):
Keep in mind it took firefighters about 30 mins to put out the fire.

40 minutes to be exact.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 37):

It's one thing to have the Lithium Ion battery to catch fire on the ground...it's a much more severe incident when one catches fire in flight.

It was my understanding this could not have happened in flight because the battery used to start the APU isn't being used.

Quoting a380900 (Reply 47):
I'm not sure you read the time it took to complete the program the right way: they were not taking their time to make this thing perfect, they were struggling with an out of control program.

Struggling with an out-of-control program? Are you kidding? They struggled alright, as did Airbus with the A380 but 'out of control' is a bit much really.

Quoting CYLW (Reply 48):

I don't think any crew would order an emergency evacuation based on a smell. Emergency evacs are dangerous in their own right. Injuries are common on these types of evacuations.

There must have been more than just a smell of smoke and a battery indication.

That's speculation, ain't it?

Quoting a380900 (Reply 62):
In one word: no. The entire 787 has had more issues than the A380. The "flying" part of the A380 has always been sound and was only 6 months late or so. Fitting the cabins were another issue altogether.

One has to mention that the Qantas engine issue has grounded many planes for some time but not all at once so it was not as spectacular. Also it was a RR thing. GE A380 could still fly...

Right, we get it.. you're not a 787 fan but you're big on the A380. You might as well say that.

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 63):

By this time tomorrow the FAA will ground all 787s until Boeing fixes all issues with this aircraft.

You know that how?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 68):
n the air currently is the ANA flight from SEA and one en route to FRA. Anyone know if that return flight is going to happen or is it just going to repo back?

I see we prescribe to the same App... I love that App!
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
holzmann
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:08 am

E-Trade -> BA -> Short
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PHX787
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Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:10 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 90):

Was that confirmed from other sources? Yomiuri had it earlier that it "may have been" smoke. But that's not a confirming word in Japanese.
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BoeingVista
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ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding

Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:10 am

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 92):
It was my understanding this could not have happened in flight because the battery used to start the APU isn't being used.

But it may still be charging.
BV
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 21834
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding

Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:11 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 80):
How many teething problems are acceptable? Is the 777 a bad airplane because it had a very rough EIS?

Was it three years late? Did it catch fire twice (perhaps three times)?

Quoting kanban (Reply 81):

Hey an A333 had smoke in the cabin today.. in Tokyo no less.. where's the hysteria?

The A330 has around a thousand frames delivered, IIRC and has been in service for twenty years. When was the last time an A330 had smoke in the cabin? I dunno; months or years? The 787 has less than 30 frames in operation and has had smoke twice now in 2 days. So if there are 30 787's in service and 900 A330's in service, this would be the equivalent of smoke on an A330 about 30 times per day. If you want to call it three days, then 20 times per day. If the A330 did that, you bet it would be grounded.

This minimization (some of it from seasoned posters on this forum who I usually respect very much) is really tiresome. The vast majority of 787's in service were just grounded by their airlines, which is a very rare event for an airline that will lose money by grounding these aircraft.

The 777 had some glitches at EIS. A lot of them. The A380 had some serious issues, as well and those issues were serious enough that they will probably disastrous for Airbus. But this is more than a "glitch."
-Doc Lightning-

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PHX787
Posts: 7892
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding

Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:17 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 96):
The A330 has around a thousand frames delivered, IIRC and has been in service for twenty years. When was the last time an A330 had smoke in the cabin? I dunno; months or years? The 787 has less than 30 frames in operation and has had smoke twice now in 2 days. So if there are 30 787's in service and 900 A330's in service, this would be the equivalent of smoke on an A330 about 30 times per day. If you want to call it three days, then 20 times per day. If the A330 did that, you bet it would be grounded.

Didn't an A330 have a crash during testing too?

More updates: apparently the NPA is proposing a raid on the company that built the APU for the 787 but again nothing confirmed. At the same time this is just through the grapevine with my Japanese contacts.
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AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding

Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:19 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 96):
This minimization (some of it from seasoned posters on this forum who I usually respect very much) is really tiresome.

I've actually found it enlightening. Watching engineers close to the program working through each issue thoroughly and methodically one-by-one, which is what I'd expect to be happening to rule out each problem. Physicians do that in the differential diagnosis process, right?  

The only thing that hasn't been revealed here so far on today's incident is what will ANA and JAL be looking for during the groundings. What needs to be confirmed as in good working order before the planes may be released for service?
International Homo of Mystery
 
Norcal773
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:19 pm

ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding

Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:20 am

Why in the hell is this main News on cnn.com. Really?

Quoting holzmann (Reply 93):
E-Trade -> BA -> Short

Insider trading? haha.
If you're going through hell, keep going
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