SXDFC
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:45 am

Does anyone know when the CS300 will begin production? Also pardon my ignorance, but is this A/C designed to compete with the E-190?
 
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BlueSky1976
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:10 am

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 50):
Also pardon my ignorance, but is this A/C designed to compete with the E-190?

CS-100 competes with E-190. CS-300 competes with A319neo and 737-7
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ferpe
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:00 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 48):
If we assume that they started final assembly on October 1st, that would mean completion by the end of Feb. Given the pics here, not unreasonable. If we assume a fudge of a month, that means 2 months of ground testing at least before first flight. Anybody have any idea for an aircraft of this size and complexity, if it would actually take 2 months of ground testing?

The C-series is a less complex aircraft then the A350 but not much, both are conventional bleed FBW aircraft system wise. The A350 FTV1 was structurally AND systemwise 80-90% complete (LG, functioning system, electrics + hydraulics connected and electrics/electronics tested) by Dec 4 as they preequipp the sections at PreFAL. The C-series is done in a conventional way ie ALL the systems are installed at FAL and then tested. What we see now is that they are strucurally where the A350 was late November (rudder surfaces, APU + cone etc still missing), we don't know how much of the systems are installed or missing. The weather radar + radome is missing, that we can see, it was fitted and tested at PreFAL for the A350 as an example.

The A350 has roll out in April and rumored first flight before Le Bourget, the C-series is very likely trailing the 350 even though it is a somewhat more straightforward integration job in the fuselage as the bracketing etc (which very often is the final problem) is done in Al in an Al frame. If the C-series flies before or during the show (in Canada of course ) that is an achievement. If they fly some months after the show it is still very very encouraging for the program, they have then done a stellar job not being the typical 1-2 years behind in this phase like A and B    .
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r2rho
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:17 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 48):
it would be quite the coup if they could pull off the first CSeries TATL flight to the Paris Air Show.

Impossible - at that phase of the flight test program they'll be opening up the flight envelope and checking the aero & handling qualities models - long flights & route proving are far away. But it will be a PR coup if they fly in Canada shortly before or during the show.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 49):
There might not be a hold up...they gave themselves an extra six months so they can use as much time as they need.

Indeed, an ifff there are no unexpected "surprises" I see the 6month delay as realistic and reasonable/achievable, maybe slightly beatable if the surprises are positive ones.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 52):
they are strucurally where the A350 was late November (rudder surfaces, APU + cone etc still missing), we don't know how much of the systems are installed or missing.

My initial "feeling" is indeed that the CSeries is lagging behind the A350 and probably doesn't have many systems installed yet. Then again, if it is true that it's getting engines in a week, and normally those come at the end, perhaps more is installed than we think.
(I note once again that this is not a "race" other than from an enthusiast's point of view, but still very interesting to watch & compare the A350 & CSeries coming together in parallel)!

Quoting ferpe (Reply 52):
If the C-series flies before or during the show (in Canada of course ) that is an achievement. If they fly some months after the show it is still very very encouraging for the program, they have then done a stellar job not being the typical 1-2 years behind in this phase like A and B

  
 
Aviaponcho
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:36 pm

Indeed, what I find the most encouraging is that FTV2 and FTV3 are already in FAL... with some fuselage mating done ...


It's not a race between Airbus and Bombardier, but it's nice to see how both manufacturers cope with this final challenging phase.
Don't forget the CIASTA also, and that static test bed should have begin torture tests by now...

So why not a good surprise ?
 
clemsonaj
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:56 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 44):
The 787 battery threads have degraded into a schoolyard hair pulling contest

I didn't think there was any degradation. It was that way from the start.
 
sf260
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:14 pm

PW1524G certification is finished: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...fication-of-cseries-engine-381693/
Congrats to PW!
Can't wait to see the bird fly  
 
planemaker
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:05 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 48):
Then again, Beaudoin could just be parroting the official target

I think that BBD will be more conservative in announcing targets after insisting in late Oct that first flight would still happen by end of year.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 51):
CS-100 competes with E-190

You may have meant to post the E195 as it is closer in size..

Quoting r2rho (Reply 53):

Indeed, an ifff there are no unexpected "surprises" I see the 6month delay as realistic and reasonable/achievable, maybe slightly beatable if the surprises are positive ones.

It is not the "known unknowens" (such as the issues that led to the delay) but the "unknown unknonwens" that potentially will really bite them. There are a lot of "firsts" for BBD with the CSeries so they are on treading on uncharted territory in a few areas of the program... some of which they have limited control over (e.g. FBW).
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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mad99
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:33 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 37):

Bombardier dosent use a moving assembly line "where the aircraft is moved" to assemble the c-series?

not yet but look for it soon

so both engines are on and she's on the landing gear!
 
kaneporta1
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:24 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 58):
not yet but look for it soon

so both engines are on and she's on the landing gear!

Is Mirabel set up for a moving line?
And are the engines already on? I thought it was going to be soon but not this soon!

What does FTV2 look like?

[Edited 2013-02-01 18:25:28]
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Flighty
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:50 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 52):
If they fly some months after the show it is still very very encouraging for the program, they have then done a stellar job not being the typical 1-2 years behind in this phase like A and B

Could this be because smaller is better? With fewer project managers, fewer engineering sites etc, they seem to be in better control of the overall project.
 
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:42 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 60):
Could this be because smaller is better?

It may have something to do with Bombardier's experience with outsourcing. They've been dealing with primary structures from N.Ireland, Mexico, USA, China and other parts hither and yon forever. They've also been planning the CSeries forever and they did give themselves a pretty realistic timeline. Going with a metal fuselage probably didn't hurt either.

Balancing that is this is their most complex aircraft project by far, their first use of Al-Li, first composite wing (though they are getting composite experience with the Lear 85), first full fly by wire controls, first jet with on wing engines and first plane out of the box with the GTF.

They are not out of the woods yet but most of the news seems to be encouraging.
What the...?
 
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BlueSky1976
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:59 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 57):
Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 51):
CS-100 competes with E-190

You may have meant to post the E195 as it is closer in size..

I forgot to add -200 at the end.   
The queen of the skies is dead.
 
miller22
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:51 pm

Just found out today that the CSeries uses only NiCad batteries, not Lithium-Ion. Safe bet by Bombardier!
 
Rheinbote
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:41 pm

Gotta love those high resolution images from the final assembly line. This is the stuff people were fired for not too long ago.  

Look at the horizontal splice just below the window belt, between the wing and the nose section in the second image from the top. Is that just a variation in color or is that panel botched?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:36 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 61):
and first plane out of the box with the GTF.

That they're getting quite a bit of help from UTC! Have been actually since at least 1999...


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planemaker
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:44 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 61):
Balancing that is

... and that BBD has been late on all their programs, particularly when they were 2nd and/or 3rd stretches of existing models.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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mad99
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:59 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 61):
encouraging

yip
ftv2 should have wings by next week and ftv3 barrel is coming together

bbd's first engine on wing plane is getting close!!!
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:20 am

Hopefully some orders for the CSeries will come from the US... I'm not a fan of sidesticks, but when I become a pilot, I can make an exception  
When wasn't America great?


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JoeCanuck
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:27 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 67):
yip
ftv2 should have wings by next week and ftv3 barrel is coming together

bbd's first engine on wing plane is getting close!!!

I know I'm getting greedy but more pics would be nice.
What the...?
 
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ssteve
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:51 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 61):
It may have something to do with Bombardier's experience with outsourcing.

The Seattle Times Sunday story:
http://seattletimes.com/html/busines...eingoutsourcingxml.html?prmid=4939
... makes it somewhat clear that it was more of an issue of managing sub-subs. They outsourced design and responsibility, and when it comes to owning a problem like the batteries, the issue is they don't fully own the cause, but they fully own the issue.

So if Bombardier still designs through the subs, ie controlling most aspects of the design, then it hasn't gone as whole-hog into outsourcing as Boeing.
 
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mad99
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:24 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 69):
I know I'm getting greedy but more pics would be nice.

i'm sure you can find them on the internet  

ftv2 will have wings in the next few days

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 70):
then it hasn't gone as whole-hog into outsourcing as Boeing.

boeing brought back a lot of outsourcing by buying out subs.

bbd are working in parallel with subs to bring them up to speed
 
queb
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:17 pm

on its wheels

http://i70.servimg.com/u/f70/17/03/84/59/cserie10.jpg
http://i70.servimg.com/u/f70/17/03/84/59/cserie11.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/598/cseries003.jpg
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:19 pm

Looks pretty naked, still a lot of work to do.

Thanks for sharing.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
queb
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:22 pm

pictures were taken last January 26
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:29 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 74):
pictures were taken last January 26

I see. She would get her engines on January 28, can't wait to see some pictures of it.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
ferpe
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:05 pm

They are making steady progress, let's hope it continues and that they can show the big guys how to run a project, would be sweet. All the best BB    .
Non French in France
 
Aviaponcho
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:19 pm

Tks queb
Big wheels indeed... For big engines.
 
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rikkus67
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:00 pm

Queb....

Any more info on the engine install yet?
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davs5032
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:36 pm

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 78):
Any more info on the engine install yet?

+1 It should be completed now, if the above dates are correct, right? I'm anxious to see the the pictures!   
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:08 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 73):

Looks pretty naked, still a lot of work to do.

Without control surfaces, that is one fugly glider.  

This makes me wonder how much of the internal work, such as wiring, is complete? Any status updates?

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CRJ900
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:52 pm

How come there are no heavy weights where the engines normally are? On pics of other aircraft without engines there are often huge weights to keep the wings from bending too much upwards.

Interesting to see how big the CS100 really is, it must be about the length of a B737-700 or A319...
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:19 am

Quoting queb (Reply 74):

Wow...3 1/2 weeks ago...a lot must have been bolted on since then. The trend of more good news and no bad news is encouraging.

Let's get this puppy into the air.
What the...?
 
TSS
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:36 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 81):
How come there are no heavy weights where the engines normally are? On pics of other aircraft without engines there are often huge weights to keep the wings from bending too much upwards.

I'd assume that with little or no interior components installed (seats, overhead bins, water in various tanks, etc. ), there's a lot less weight to counterbalance across the landing gear, hence no specific need for weights on the wing at this point.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
Murf
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:31 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 81):
How come there are no heavy weights where the engines normally are? On pics of other aircraft without engines there are often huge weights to keep the wings from bending too much upwards

There is a weight which can be seen hanging from what I would guess is the front jacking point Fwd of the Fwd cargo cutout...not as big as what's typically seen hanging from pylons but considering the moment arm is further from CG it wouldn't have to be as heavy.
 
davs5032
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:36 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 81):
Interesting to see how big the CS100 really is, it must be about the length of a B737-700 or A319...

Indeed. The CS-100 is 34.9m, slightly longer than an A319, while the -300 is 38m, slightly longer than the A320 (per Wiki). The C-series family is definitely well-proportioned IMO, and I'm sure they'll be easy on the eyes!
 
sebring
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:38 pm

Ilyushin confirms its order, and PW's geared turbofan has been certified by Transport Canada

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ier-cseries-planes/article8900900/

A Russian leasing company has agreed to purchase up to 42 Bombardier Inc. CSeries aircraft in a potential $3.42-billion deal, the aircraft manufacturer announced Wednesday, shortly after it disclosed Transport Canada has certified the plane’s Pratt & Whitney engine.

Ilyushin Finance Co. seeks to acquire 32 of the larger CS300 planes at a list price of about $2.56-billion (U.S.), and has options for 10 additional planes, making it one of the largest CSeries orders to date.

The transaction signed Wednesday at Bombardier’s final assembly facility in Mirabel, Que., follows a letter of intent signed in 2011 for 30 CSeries planes. The agreement is subject to approval by Ilyushin’s shareholders.

The company’s director general said the aircraft leasing world is rapidly changing as airlines seek to replace older, less efficient planes because of high fuel costs and environmental concerns.

“The CSeries aircraft offers transcontinental range, superior field and runway performance, and a superb cabin that will bring air transport into the 21st century,” Alexander Rubtsov said in a news release.

The CSeries order is Ilyushin’s first for a large, non-Russian plane and will join the firm’s Russian Superjets and MC-21 aircraft.

The head of Bombardier’s commercial aircraft group called the agreement a “landmark opportunity” for the company and the new plane.

“The CSeries aircraft was tailor-made for operation in this vast region and has the potential to offer a step-change in air travel in Russia and throughout the Commonwealth of Independent States,” Mike Arcamone stated a day before Bombardier discloses its fourth-quarter and 2012 results Thursday.

There are currently 95 Bombardier CRJ regional jets and turboprops in service or on order in Russia and the CIS. Bombardier said it is also exploring opportunities for its Q400, with reports saying it may assemble some of these planes in Russia.

As of Dec. 31, Bombardier had booked orders and commitments for 382 CSeries aircraft that include firm orders for 148 CSeries airliners.

Earlier Wednesday, Bombardier and Pratt & Whitney Co. Inc. announced that Transport Canada had certified Pratt & Whitney’s geared turbofan engine that will power the CSeries.

The U.S.-based engine manufacturer – a division of United Technologies Corp. has conducted more than 4,000 hours of testing since September, 2010, including 340 hours of flight testing on a Boeing 747 flight test airplane.

Bombardier CSeries general manager Rob Dewar said the engine’s certification is a “significant milestone and critical step” leading to the aircraft’s first flight test, which has been delayed six months until some time before June.

“We are very pleased with the engine’s performance and the overall, steady progress of the CSeries aircraft program,” he said in a news release.

He said Bombardier has achieved several key milestones over the past few months, accepted two engine propulsion systems and is completing final assembly of the first test aircraft.

Pratt & Whitney vice-president Bob Saia said the company has demonstrated “the durability and game-changing performance of our Geared Turbofan engine architecture,” including the targeted double-digit improvement in fuel efficiency and noise reduction.

The PW1500G engines type certified through Transport Canada by Pratt & Whitney Canada were assembled at Pratt & Whitney Canada’s Mirabel Aerospace Centre, north of Montreal.

Each aircraft will be powered by two engines, which use an advanced gear system to allow its fans to operate at a different speed than the low-pressure compressor and turbine.

The 110- to 149-seat CSeries is partially made from advanced composite materials that promise to deliver a 15-per-cent reduction in cash operating costs and a 20-per-cent fuel burn reduction.

[Edited 2013-02-20 14:40:34]
 
queb
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:20 pm

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 78):
Queb....

Any more info on the engine install yet?

Photo taken on February 5
http://static.ow.ly/photos/original/1yHGd.jpg
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:25 pm

Wow, nice and impressive.
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Quantos
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:30 pm

Very nice! Can't wait to see it fly (and hoping I can see it on the first flight!)
Quantos,

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Feel free to comment on the sheet with any improvement suggestions and data update requests! Thanks to Paolo92 for his advice!
 
queb
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:12 pm

Tranport Canada PW1500G data sheet

https://www.box.com/s/76cq9bwbf22ikh1trjum
 
r2rho
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:23 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 87):

Photo taken on February 5

Looking good! Engines & nacelles mounted, slats installed, flaps not yet. I wonder how it looks on the inside, how many systems installed, flight test instrumentation, etc.
 
queb
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:22 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 91):
slats installed

no slats installed yet
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:52 pm

Will the aircraft sit that high? or is it because the lack of components installed why it is sitting high..
 
queb
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:53 pm

official rollout march 7th per Scott Hamilton on Twitter
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:57 pm

More about the production rate:

Quote:
Bombardier expects 20-30 CSeries production yr 1, 120 by yr 3 1/2: earnings webcast. To reveal first production CSeries March 7
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
pugman211
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:59 pm

yep, slats are not installed in that photo.
 
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Quantos
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:07 pm

I'm assuming that to make a presentation on march 7th, FTV1 has to look finished (at least the outside)? Also, if someone could explain a detail I noticed: in the first pictures in the thread, the winglets seem to already be installed. However, they are missing when the aircraft is outside. Were they removed for some reason?
Quantos,

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Feel free to comment on the sheet with any improvement suggestions and data update requests! Thanks to Paolo92 for his advice!
 
YYZYYT
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:35 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 87):
Photo taken on February 5

Fabulous - thank you queb!!

I have a question... it could be me, or the angle/lens of the photo, but the GTF engine seems to be larger than usual, relative to the fuselage. Does anyone know whether the GTF engines developped to date will be visibly identifiable to a casual observer?
 
queb
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RE: Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:44 pm

GTF engine is larger than other engines, that's why Boeing can't mounted a GTF engine on 737 MAX. Cseries GTF is larger than 737 Max Leap-X. (72" vs 69")

program update from Leeham News:
http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2013...-7-bbd-sees-russia-as-ripe-market/

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