Hello everybody,

The news artical link posted below states that AI may finally join the Star Alliance. Has AI improved their operation and performance enough to be a better option than 9W?

http://www.business-standard.com/ind...-star-to-finally-come-true/499717/

Since Air India's entry to Star Alliance was deferred, it's on time performance has dropped 2% (still above 80% though), cancellation rate has increased 0.8%. Most of the difference can be attributed to weather.

There really haven't been any tangible changes to their operation. I'm not sure which improvements you're talking about?

1) I hope not.

2) The random official quoted, seems to be pinning his hope on Star rejecting 9W because of a possible investment by EY. I don't know why an investment by EY would necessarily rule out membership unless he is assuming that Etihad favours another alliance (like Oneworld based on AB's membership).

It seems to be faint hope projected as a foregone conclusion, once again, from some random "official".

We'll see what happens. But for now, I can't imagine Star passing on 9W so easily.

Quoting ytz (Reply 2): unless he is assuming that Etihad favours another alliance (like Oneworld based on AB's membership).

... or SkyTeam based on EY's coziness with AF/KL (and AF/KL's past offer with DL to 9W to join Sky).

In any event, things in India are interesting. EY might be in advanced talks to invest in 9W and I tend to believe that such a deal would make 9W's entry into Star Alliance less likely. On the other hand, BA seems to be looking at a possible investment in IndiGo. If both these events happen, maybe AI's only choice will be Star Alliance and vice versa.

After Kingfisher,s fall alot of flyers who prefer flying full service carriers including Business pax have shifted to Air India. AI has been able to develop a decent hub in Delhi T3 connecting various domestic flights operating from Delhi with its international services. Have taken numerous flights on AI both domestic as well as international things are not that bad as they seem to be quoted here in forum.

If *A were to let AI join them, it would be the worst decision they could make. AI is still operating as if it were a state monopoly - the only difference being that while there are LCC and domestic competitors who are much nimbler than it, AI has the advantage of getting free money from the national exchequer. Having gotten the recent fillup of billions of dollars, it is kind of flying again. I would take its so called "on time" statistics with a grain of salt thanks to the enormous level of data fudging, corruption and sheer incompetence that is so rampant with government organizations in India. One should also note that Aeroblogger has some kind of connection and loyalty to AI which makes him a non-neutral commentator. My observation with friends and family who travelled in Dec 2012 and Jan 2013 has been that AI on-time performance was a sick joke. Furthermore, the fact that AI is making Delhi its main hub is a big issue due to the weather issues that it suffers over there.

However the fundamental problem is that AI is a government run organization that is full of state backed employees who have the sense of entitlement and jobs for life mentality. When the employees go on strike (which is very often), an obvious conflict of interest arises between the state backed employees and the state managed airline. Most often than not, the employees win, resulting in unsustainable pressure on AI's bottom line. AI is extremely overstaffed and it is easy to observe that as once can see a lot of AI employees just hanging around doing nothing. Unfortunately, AI's problems don't just exist at the bottom. AI's state installed management is subservient to the political class that put it there. Hence we get all kinds of dubious non revenue pax filling up the premium seats, not to mention dubious aircraft and equipment purchases. Finally, to make up for its poor reputation, AI under prices its competitors, thus not only hurting itself, but also the entire aviation market. When AI is flush with free cash -as it is now, AI kind of stumbles along for a while. In a few years however, when money becomes tight, its service starts falling apart. Given that there have not been any fundamental reforms at AI, we can expect this same sad story to repeat itself in a few years from now.

The bottom line is that AI is not a financially viable company.

Not till they pass an IOSA Safety Audit...

Quoting Slawko (Reply 6): Not till they pass an IOSA Safety Audit...

And do you know for a fact that they have not?

Air India

Quoting Slawko (Reply 6): Not till they pass an IOSA Safety Audit...

Air India was one of the first 10 airlines in the world to be IOSA certified in 2004, and it has been continuously certified since then. AI is also ISAGO certified since 2010. They are the only airline in India to be ISAGO certified.

[Edited 2013-01-24 10:31:24]

The fish stinks from the head. That being said, alliances are desperate to get a foothold in India. Conflict of interest will always be the name of the game in this dirty political back-and-forth and all I can do is shake my head in response.

Regardless of outcome, AI has been exposed in this messy situation, and it is an embarrassment to them, the GOI and the entire Indian nation, which will take a long time to erase.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 9): AI has been exposed in this messy situation, and it is an embarrassment to them, the GOI and the entire Indian nation, which will take a long time to erase.

= "The entire Indian nation" seems a tad dramatic no  ?

Saludos,
A.

Air India ranked the third most unsafe airline in the world by Jet Airliner Crash Data Evaluation Center (JACDEC).
http://www.aerointernational.de/serv...ro-0213-Sicherheitranking-2012.pdf

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 10): = "The entire Indian nation" seems a tad dramatic no  ?

You know me too well  

I haven't told you my Mum's summer experience on AI which has led me to ban the airline off my list for good.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 11): Oh, you can ignore that......he's just another over-informed a.nutter....

LOL.

[Edited 2013-01-25 09:17:44]

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 14): Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 10): = "The entire Indian nation" seems a tad dramatic no  ? You know me too well   I haven't told you my Mum's summer experience on AI which has led me to ban the airline off my list for good.

Well for the sake o fairness AI does have a one or two tangible qualities left (maybe just one?) - you can still sweet talk them into a little higher baggage allowance if you're on an int'l - domestic connection. Not so on 9W or 6E, they are draconian about it all of a sudden (and why not, seeing that's thousands of extra rupees they stand to make). All it took was a "can i speak to your supervisor" and a "oh you're carrying medicines for the himalayas? ok just pay for 5 kilos". Yes ma'am!

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 15): Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 14):Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 10): = "The entire Indian nation" seems a tad dramatic no ? You know me too well I haven't told you my Mum's summer experience on AI which has led me to ban the airline off my list for good. Well for the sake o fairness AI does have a one or two tangible qualities left (maybe just one?) - you can still sweet talk them into a little higher baggage allowance if you're on an int'l - domestic connection. Not so on 9W or 6E, they are draconian about it all of a sudden (and why not, seeing that's thousands of extra rupees they stand to make). All it took was a "can i speak to your supervisor" and a "oh you're carrying medicines for the himalayas? ok just pay for 5 kilos". Yes ma'am!

Fact is, every airline out there in the world has good points and bad points.....even AI, as you point out, still have some good things (although fast diminishing) left about them......problem is, most of the armchair critics on this forum hook onto whatever is bad at a given point of time and jump on the bandwagon of critics as though they've all experienced AI firsthand.....makes you wonder about the quality of comments on the whole, on this forum.....

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 16): Fact is, every airline out there in the world has good points and bad points.....even AI, as you point out, still have some good things (although fast diminishing) left about them......problem is, most of the armchair critics on this forum hook onto whatever is bad at a given point of time and jump on the bandwagon of critics as though they've all experienced AI firsthand.....makes you wonder about the quality of comments on the whole, on this forum.....

My family and I have been giving business to Air India now for decades, and have experienced an unacceptable level of grievances to substantiate the way we feel about them and how they manage and operate the airline.

When my Mom, a long-time Flying Returns member and frequent PREMIUM class traveler, was stranded in Chicago last summer and had to pay a full-fare, one-way walk-up out of pocket to get back home, thanks to AI and the pilot strikes (which may happen again soon FYI seeing that they haven't been paid in 6 months), we knew it was time to pull the plug.

The worst part is, her correspondence with AI was egregious. AI even responded to her, via e-mail, saying, "We still would like to encourage you to enroll in our Flying Returns Programme." Didn't even bother to look up her profile to see that she's been a life long member.

Do you seriously treat your elites that way? Never have I ever seen such a sheer lack of professionalism, and such an intolerable level of laziness, in my years of dealing with the airline industry. No airline with that kind of reputation deserves to step foot near the Star Alliance HQ.

I particularly love it when AI apologists on these forums accuse me of being an armchair critic. It makes me LOL.

Quoting golfradio (Reply 17): I think some of the relentless bashers have to take a deep breath and let a couple of AI threads slide without their rants.

The bashing happens because it's perfectly justified and frankly, disgusting that AI couldn't make the deadline when plenty of other carriers have. What a waste.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 18): When my Mom, a long-time Flying Returns member and frequent PREMIUM class traveler, was stranded in Chicago last summer and had to pay a full-fare, one-way walk-up out of pocket to get back home, thanks to AI and the pilot strikes (which may happen again soon FYI seeing that they haven't been paid in 6 months), we knew it was time to pull the plug.

Well, that's very strange, considering that the USA Head Office relaxed all endorsement restrictions during the pilot strike. There is no reason your mother shouldn't have been rebooked onto another carrier. Sounds like you got a terrible agent, but the policies AI put in place during the strike were no different than what LH implemented last year during their strike.

As for upcoming strikes, none are expected, thanks to this:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 19): AI couldn't make the deadline when plenty of other carriers have. What a waste.

There is nothing wrong if you don't like a airline and never willing to use it in future. I personally never use AI. But if LH sponsored AI into *A, is it not LH's responsibility to help AI with project management. If AI didn't fund the project then AI can be blamed. Blindsiding your own invitee on last day doesn't sound very professional.

It is possible *A never intended to bring AI in *A, but LH was trying to benefit by getting more slots/seats/380 into India. Of course, everything is fair in business.

Now EY is courting Jet Airways, means Jet Airways will be part of SkyTeam. BA is courting IndiGo, one world has a Indian partner, that leaves only AI for *A.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 18): I particularly love it when AI apologists on these forums accuse me of being an armchair critic. It makes me LOL.

Ok, I've obviously offended you, without intending to do so.....my response to you ended in Reply #11 above.....what I wrote in Reply #16 was not aimed at you.....you've obviously had personal experiences with AI....so, my apologies if my comments came across as a personal attack on you.....

My comments were aimed at those who probably won't even recognise an AI plane if it was in front of them, and probably can't locate India on a world map, but still jump at every opportunity to rant about AI and link their criticism to the rest of the Indian nation........

[Edited 2013-01-25 12:36:24]

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20): As for upcoming strikes, none are expected, thanks to this:

Ahh, ok. Thank you. My dad is traveling to DEL in a few weeks and as recently as last night, was recommended by an internal contact within AI to not fly on any of the nonstops due to this.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 21): But if LH sponsored AI into *A, is it not LH's responsibility to help AI with project management. If AI didn't fund the project then AI can be blamed. Blindsiding your own invitee on last day doesn't sound very professional.

This is where the facts always seem to get muddled. It just baffles me that despite all of the technological progress India has made over the past few decades, the airline was still incapable of meeting a deadline within an extremely generous and feasible time frame, whereas other airlines from lesser-developed countries ridden with far more political strife have been able to do so.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 21): It is possible *A never intended to bring AI in *A, but LH was trying to benefit by getting more slots/seats/380 into India. Of course, everything is fair in business.

Obviously there are some sort of indirect selfish intentions on both parts, but it was never lopsided in favor of one over the other. Moreover, Germany and India have long-standing relations and Lufthansa has played a CRITICAL role in helping India connect to the rest of the world. AI owed them full compliance. There were huge stakes at play here with unfathomable benefits to reap, and I doubt the Germans were blindsided by any sort of cultural misunderstandings which arose. It was squandered completely and hugely, hugely upsetting.

Ultimately, Germany simply has a low tolerance for leniency and corruption and that is what sank the ship. I am not willing to believe an ounce of what AI, nor the GOI, claims as mud-slinging on Lufthansa's part here. But, as I mentioned earlier, one side is inevitably bound to concede to the other but that doesn't wipe away the lingering embarrassment from all of this. I may turn the other cheek, but as I mentioned previously, I'll continue to say the fish stinks from the head.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 22): Ok, I've obviously offended you, without intending to do so.....my response to you ended in Reply #11 above.....what I wrote in Reply #16 was not aimed at you.....you've obviously had personal experiences with AI....so, my apologies if my comments came across as a personal attack on you.....

Don't worry, your comments were not offensive and I was not insulted. Thank you for the apology   I understand people are quick to jump on bandwagons here and I agree with some of the points you've raised. I also tend to be a bit dramatic sometimes with my posts which may lead people to believe I'm just trying to prove a point, which I am not.

Cheers, Happy Friday.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 23): This is where the facts always seem to get muddled. It just baffles me that despite all of the technological progress India has made over the past few decades, the airline was still incapable of meeting a deadline within an extremely generous and feasible time frame, whereas other airlines from lesser-developed countries ridden with far more political strife have been able to do so.

I speak from personal experience from when I was employed by the biggest IT consultancy in India and worked many days at the Kalina OPS center. I was eventually pulled off many projects when there was no progress made to freeze the design.
Decisions in AI are not made by employees, they are made by the bureaucrats. You can't imagine how much of CYA has to be peformed by the employees to not get their @$$ chewed when they make a decision that was not approved by the babus, signed on triplicate and rubber stamped at least 5 desks. You are free to blame the airline but I choose to make a distinction between some of the professional employees at AI and the bureaucrats who sit on top of them.

Secondly you underestimate complexity of merging two incredibly divergent, poorly implemented systems. AI and IC merger should have never happened. The fact that AI finally managed to get the systems integrated is huge deal, given the environment they have to work in.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 23): I am not willing to believe an ounce of what AI, nor the GOI, claims as mud-slinging on Lufthansa's part here.

I completely respect your opinion, but there is a hypothetical possibility *A tried to milk AI/GOI to get better foothold in India at the same time trying to recruit 9W. If AI/GOI agreed to parallel process, end result would have been 9W in *A and AI gets the shaft.

I think the time has come for Star to take AI. AI now is as much as ready as many of the other airlines which have gotten into various alliances. It would be a big benefit, especially for LH to have AI as a partner. It may hurt UA, since AI will be their direct competitor on EWR-BOM route, UA will still get benefits to sell tickets to other major cities in India neutralizing EK and other Middle East carriers.

Quoting golfradio (Reply 24): Decisions in AI are not made by employees, they are made by the bureaucrats. You can't imagine how much of CYA has to be peformed by the employees to not get their @$$ chewed when they make a decision that was not approved by the babus, signed on triplicate and rubber stamped at least 5 desks. You are free to blame the airline but I choose to make a distinction between some of the professional employees at AI and the bureaucrats who sit on top of them.

Look, I don't need a lecture on how bureaucracy in AI exists, extending to the involvement of the GOI. I'm pretty well versed in how awful the whole situation is and I really don't give a damn.

Point blank, if India, nor its state-owned airlines, can't elevate themselves to meet global precedent set by Star Alliance, then they shouldn't be allowed to join, period. I am not one for allowing barriers to be lowered just to accommodate the ineptitude of an organization, nor its overseeing entity, which clearly doesn't have its act together and perpetuates its self-destructive enabling behavior time after time again.

Quoting golfradio (Reply 24): Secondly you underestimate complexity of merging two incredibly divergent, poorly implemented systems. AI and IC merger should have never happened. The fact that AI finally managed to get the systems integrated is huge deal, given the environment they have to work in.

Trust me, I work in Systems Integration. The AI-IC merger issues extend beyond platform: there were also MAJOR HR-related issues and bad blood clouding the entire process. Five years later, issues related to pay, allowances, seniority, etc. have YET to be resolved.

What is your point, anyway??? If anything, this example only further substantiates that AI's instability would be toxic to ANY global alliance.

You make Star Alliance sound like it's some group of absolutely perfect airlines. It's not.

• *You won't find anybody raving about how great service is on MS.
  
  
• *You won't find anybody praising TK's on time performance (for last month, it was in the 30-40% range)
  
  
• *You won't find anybody saying that OZ's IT systems are superior than AI's - in fact, AI's systems put OZ's to shame
  
  
• *You won't find anybody complimenting US for not being able to integrate employee groups 6 years after merger
  
  
• *You won't find anybody suggesting that the UA/CO merger went off without hitch, and that the technology integration process went smoothly
  
  
• *You won't find anybody happy about how often people get "TGed" and don't get the product they paid for
  

And I won't even get started on CA's or ZH's problems...

AI has problems, but none are issues which other carriers don't face as well. The issues which really matter to join an alliance, which are safety, network, and technological readiness, have all been fulfilled by Air India.

Star needs an Indian partner, AI needs an alliance. If it's the best decision for everyone (and indeed, neither party has many choices), the deal will go on. You are free to continue flying whichever carrier you want.

Aeroblogger, how much is AI paying you to be their apologist? Those of us who have traveled on AI know how poorly AI treats is customers. The fact that AI in only able to garner 20% of the domestic market, despite its low ball pricing and billions of dollars in subsidies should tell us how admirably this joke also known as an airline is doing.

There are several private airlines that will beginning international service shortly. *A should bid its time and wait. Those of you who are advocating AI without having experienced AI's crappy standards have no idea what you are asking for. I have experienced Aeroflot during the chaos of its early days of privatization and I can say that AI is as bad as Aeroflot used to be. Its staff and management do not give a shi* about the flying public. Who can blame them? They have life time employment guaranteed by the state. Delayed/cancelled/rescheduled flights, missing baggage, baggage diverted to another flight etc. This happens with all airlines. The difference here is how they make attempts to amend the situation - they don't. First of all, they keep you in the dark on what is happening, so you can't make alternate plans - perhaps they are so used to dealing with illiterate migrant workers in the Middle East, or they are just so arrogant, they rarely take proactive steps to help their passengers. Furthermore, if you make an inquiry or seek compensation, you will get stuck in bureaucratic pile that is so deep, you will wonder why you bothered!

Fundamentally, there can be no redemption for AI, until it is fully privatized and removed from the yoke of government meddling. The current so called restructuring of AI is a farce. The fact that they have not managed to do it some 5 years after the "merger" should give you folks pause for thought. They seem to announce a restructuring every 10-15 years or so, which corresponds to when they have run out of money and need another bailout.

Quoting goacom (Reply 26): Aeroblogger, how much is AI paying you to be their apologist?

lol. There is no way in hell an organization as poorly run as AI could be organized enough to go paying people to be their apologist...

Quoting goacom (Reply 26): The fact that AI in only able to garner 20% of the domestic market, despite its low ball pricing and billions of dollars in subsidies should tell us how admirably this joke also known as an airline is doing.

Marketshare is a terrible measure of "success." And regardless, AI's yields are higher than those of the LCCs - pricing isn't particularly "lowball." Indeed, airfares in India are some of the highest in the world, thanks to the horrible taxation climate.

Quoting goacom (Reply 26): Those of you who are advocating AI without having experienced AI's crappy standards have no idea what you are asking for.

I don't think anybody who hasn't experienced AI is advocating AI joining - rather, it's only those who have flown it who are recommending it.

There is a reason I give AI my business - good safety record, affordable fares, good food, new aircraft, and good reliability. And while our experiences on AI are completely at odds, trip reports by other impartial observers have a clear trend of noting the same positives which I just noted. Organizationally, it's a mess, and the chances of it making money if the current form of management continues are roughly zero, but that isn't relevant to me as a passenger, or to alliance airlines as a partner.

I travel to BDQ once a year and transit through BOM which takes me anything from 4 to 7.5 hours of layover each leg and the transit process is not exactly awesome. AI via DEL cuts my time down from 26 hrs to 19/20 one way. I don't fly AI for the simple reason that I like to have miles on a US airline which I can use. So I put up with the layover and fly UA-LH or some. But I have cousins in India who swear by AI - actually prefer it over 9W (yes I find that hard to believe also).

The last time I flew AI couple of years ago, it was quite okay. Flights were on time, IFE was decent, food was good and crew was very helpful and friendly.

Conversely last Dec when I flew DL-AF it simply put me off DL forever. First the FAs just stood around as people struggled to get their luggage in to the overhead bins not once offering help, then they messed up the pre-ordered meals so a few people actually could not eat, and on top of that the FA had the gall to tell the passenger behind me that it was an airline not a restaurant! Not to mention the fact that the cabin crew kept cribbing every time a passenger asked for water.

Not that its a gold standard but just check the Skytrax website and you will see every airline including get at least a couple of bad reviews per page. So I am not sure any airline does not have the same issues as AI - AI has (largely through their own devices and helped generously by GoI) just got such a bad rep that it has become a favorite whipping boy.

Quoting VTORD (Reply 28): The last time I flew AI couple of years ago, it was quite okay. Flights were on time, IFE was decent, food was good and crew was very helpful and friendly.

As has been said many times, the problem with AI is not in the air. Their inflight service is pretty good. Their problem is their horrible service on the ground and IRROPS handling. If you look at the complaints and youtube videos about AI they are almost always about some sort of problem with their ground staff.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 29): As has been said many times, the problem with AI is not in the air. Their inflight service is pretty good. Their problem is their horrible service on the ground and IRROPS handling. If you look at the complaints and youtube videos about AI they are almost always about some sort of problem with their ground staff.

Correct. Even IrishAyes' complain is about ground services. And AI definitely needs to improve on that. From IRROPS handling to the atrocious lounge product AI offers.

However, even IRROPS handling is better than at the Indian LCCs - AI will put you up in a hotel (after you get forms signed and stamped in triplicate) and put you on another carrier, while the LCCs will cancel a flight, give you a refund, and send you home.

Quoting goacom (Reply 11): Air India ranked the third most unsafe airline in the world by Jet Airliner Crash Data Evaluation Center (JACDEC). http://www.aerointernational.de/serv...ro-0213-Sicherheitranking-2012.pdf

though I don't doubt it, i wouldn't be trusting a site that calls GOL the 4th most unsafe...

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 25): You make Star Alliance sound like it's some group of absolutely perfect airlines. It's not.

Did I ever say it was? Every major global alliance is comprised of network carriers that are struggling internally. Should this mean that AI's inability to meet the entry requirements and deadline (again, consistent with standards required by ALL member carriers that are presently part of Star Alliance) should be condoned?

No, it does not. When is this habit of turning the blame externally going to stop?

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 25): Star needs an Indian partner, AI needs an alliance. If it's the best decision for everyone (and indeed, neither party has many choices), the deal will go on. You are free to continue flying whichever carrier you want.

As I've been saying all along, the fish stinks from the head. If conditions are bent just to bow to AI because Star is that desperate, then so be it. An alliance membership won't ultimately fix the airline. Just ask Malev, Mexicana, Spanair, Varig, etc.

Besides, alliances are starting to become de-emphasized anyways and focus around the Gulf carriers, which AI doesn't stand a chance against.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 29): As has been said many times, the problem with AI is not in the air. Their inflight service is pretty good. Their problem is their horrible service on the ground and IRROPS handling. If you look at the complaints and youtube videos about AI they are almost always about some sort of problem with their ground staff.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 30): Correct. Even IrishAyes' complain is about ground services. And AI definitely needs to improve on that. From IRROPS handling to the atrocious lounge product AI offers. However, even IRROPS handling is better than at the Indian LCCs - AI will put you up in a hotel (after you get forms signed and stamped in triplicate) and put you on another carrier, while the LCCs will cancel a flight, give you a refund, and send you home.

You guys have got to be kidding me. Spinning the facts to glamorize the in-flight services to cover up the major issues at hand. This is the definition of grasping for straws.

Here are some pretty dire data points about AI:

1. As of yesterday, AI has had to issue a contingency plan against the strike threat from the 800-member Indian Commercial Pilots Assn (ICPA) by operating wide-body aircraft on domestic and short-haul international routes, taking 15 a/c on wet lease and requesting the Indian Air Force for pilots on a short-term basis.

2. AI is expected to post a USD $1.3 BILLION dollar loss, if not more, for the FY ending 31-MAR-13. The four remaining private carriers in the Indian commercialization market (GoAir, SpiceJet, IndiGo, Jet Airways/JetLite) are each expected to post profits, if they have not already.

3. AI may CURRENTLY have the highest-yielding domestic traffic in India, but there is little to no veritable proof out there that this is sustainable over the long run, especially with the current management in place. With the risk of your pilots going on strike, aircraft substitutions (using an inane strategy of deploying large-density planes on routes that can only support smaller-configured planes, which will tank yields) and the 787 grounded, the future looks pretty bleak.

4. LCCs like SpiceJet and IndiGo are successful, profitable, and gaining traction quickly.

5. I haven't even touched upon the HR issues. You realize that in order to provide the "excellent in-flight service," the employees have to be willing to show up to work to fly the plane, correct?

Quoting YYCspotter (Reply 31): though I don't doubt it, i wouldn't be trusting a site that calls GOL the 4th most unsafe...

Why don't you doubt it? AI has passed IOSA audits since '04 and ISAGO audits since '10. That wouldn't have happened if there were safety issues...

Quoting VTORD (Reply 28): First the FAs just stood around as people struggled to get their luggage in to the overhead bins not once offering help

Perhaps you don't know, with only 7 posts....DL FA's aren't allowed to assist with the overhead bins as they risk injury for which they aren't insured. No doubt an ORD-based airline will better suit you.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 34): DL FA's aren't allowed to assist with the overhead bins as they risk injury for which they aren't insured.

That explains. I always wondered why they don't help even disabled and senior citizens. DL must be saving millions on this exclusion. It would be nice if they post "For your safety cabin crew not allowed to help with cabin baggage" sign.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 32): You guys have got to be kidding me. Spinning the facts to glamorize the in-flight services to cover up the major issues at hand. This is the definition of grasping for straws.

Whoa, nobody said AI did not have issues. All we said was AI's inflight service is pretty good but their ground service is crap. That said, the fact is that the GOI will never be allow AI to go bankrupt so their financial issues don't mean much.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 35): DL must be saving millions on this exclusion. It would be nice if they post "For your safety cabin crew not allowed to help with cabin baggage" sign.

This FA/cabin luggage situation in the US came about because an FA injured themselves lifting a bag for a passenger and then applied for workers comp and was denied because lifting bags was not part of their job description. Now no US-based FA on any carrier will lift a bag for a passenger...

[Edited 2013-01-27 09:22:34]

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 34): DL FA's aren't allowed to assist with the overhead bins as they risk injury for which they aren't insured.

Who would have thought?? I am certainly not as much in the know how as some of you folks here....Thanks...Now I'll leave it off my reviews on skytrax  

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 35): I always wondered why they don't help even disabled and senior citizens.

I confess I had not noticed except on the one occasion....

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 36): Now no US-based FA on any carrier will lift a bag for a passenger...

I did not mean actually lifting the bags and put them away but just help them make space and the like. Oh well.....Lets not hijack this thread - as usual AI threads are the most interesting  

Is there any real news? As far as I know, AI hasn't formally filed with *A to join as the last application has lapsed. Does AI even have a sponsor? The prior vote resulted in a"the majority of members of the alliance voted to reject Air India's application. "

http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/201...ance-members-reject-air-india.html

What has AI changed to bring a majority of the *A airlines over to their side? What is in it for them? India has always been difficult to expand air service rights. I'm just not seeing enough of a change to encourage AI right now.

What is the status of 9W and *A anyway?

Quoting ytz (Reply 2): I don't know why an investment by EY would necessarily rule out membership unless he is assuming that Etihad favours another alliance (like Oneworld based on AB's membership).

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 3): ... or SkyTeam based on EY's coziness with AF/KL (and AF/KL's past offer with DL to 9W to join Sky).

This could be a multi-stage deal. EY has managed to get their fingers into enough airlines that it will impact negotiation. I suspect EY would pull 9W to Skyteam. Just my   , but what I would expect.

Quoting goacom (Reply 5): The bottom line is that AI is not a financially viable company.

Unfortunately, reform is too slow to enable it to turn a profit long term.


Lightsaber

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 38): Does AI even have a sponsor?

TK is always an open option...

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 38): What has AI changed to bring a majority of the *A airlines over to their side?

Pretty much nothing about AI has changed..

I think the difference is if this 9W-EY deal goes through, *A will have no other choice left. The disagreement in the first place was regarding whether both AI and 9W could be let in.

This is based on the assumption that 9W partnering with EY would rule out *A membership, which of course may not necessarily be the case. However, it is hard to envision EY and *A partnering in any form...

Quoting golfradio (Reply 21): I speak from personal experience from when I was employed by the biggest IT consultancy in India and worked many days at the Kalina OPS center. I was eventually pulled off many projects when there was no progress made to freeze the design. Decisions in AI are not made by employees, they are made by the bureaucrats. You can't imagine how much of CYA has to be peformed by the employees to not get their @$$ chewed when they make a decision that was not approved by the babus, signed on triplicate and rubber stamped at least 5 desks. You are free to blame the airline but I choose to make a distinction between some of the professional employees at AI and the bureaucrats who sit on top of them.

You just explained the fundamental issue with AI. It is managed by government bureaucrats whose interests do not necessarily match that of a normal airline or the flying public. In the end, it does not matter if it is the employees or the the bureaucrats, but the end product. In this case, the end product is stinking rotten.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 36): Whoa, nobody said AI did not have issues. All we said was AI's inflight service is pretty good but their ground service is crap. That said, the fact is that the GOI will never be allow AI to go bankrupt so their financial issues don't mean much.

We can't be too sure that the GOI will not let AI go bankrupt. Sometimes, tough economic medicine is dictated from the outside. For example, India is currently running massive budgetary deficits which international commercial lenders may find too risky. Likewise, support for AI may be considered to be in contravention of WTO rules. On the domestic front, AI's slide in market share if it continues will make it irrelevant, thus making its importance less relevant to the national psyche. Not very long ago, it had a 100% share of the market. Today, the combined AI + IA is down to 20%. Lastly, every time it runs into financial problems (which is quite often), its service and reputation takes another tumble towards the gutter.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 36): Whoa, nobody said AI did not have issues. All we said was AI's inflight service is pretty good but their ground service is crap. That said, the fact is that the GOI will never be allow AI to go bankrupt so their financial issues don't mean much.

Yes, but the tone of the responses made it seems as though I was only basing my statements off of ground services (see below post from aeroblogger) which is incorrect as I have also pointed to numerous other issues (HR, technical, management) that plagues the airline.

RE:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 30): Correct. Even IrishAyes' complain is about ground services. And AI definitely needs to improve on that. From IRROPS handling to the atrocious lounge product AI offers.

As far as the on board services is concerned, that opinion is a bit more subjective and is overall pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things if the airline has a poor reputation for reliability, on-time performance and overall customer-relations. The ground experience both pre-departure and post trip each play a crucial role in the overall customer experience lifecycle as a less-than-stellar experience can have a irreversible detrimental affect on the future of passenger purchase behavior.

Such was the case for my Mum, who was happy to trash her flying returns miles after what happened to her on the ground. A customer lost is a customer lost. Just look at UA: this year's revenue performance SHOULD have reflected gains from merger synergies, yet they took a dive while YoY revenues grew 10 PERCENT each at US Airways and Delta.

And why is that?? Poor operational reliability correlated to the loss of high-yielding corporate clientele who voted with their feet and stuck to their word and went to the competition. Wall street is asking for a timeframe for when the higher yielding traffic will return and help UA achieve revenue parity with its peers. United has YET to answer that question. Who knows if they'll ever get those clients back?

Back to the AI situation, put simply, there no real gains from flaunting characteristics like like good catering, comfy seats, IFE, pretty air hostesses, new planes and cheap fares to overcompensate for blatant flaws when these only represent some parts of the whole

Quoting goacom (Reply 40): In this case, the end product is stinking rotten.

  

Quoting goacom (Reply 40): Today, the combined AI + IA is down to 20%. Lastly, every time it runs into financial problems (which is quite often), its service and reputation takes another tumble towards the gutter.

Exactly. With this kind of information in place, and without real, compelling evidence that AI has truly turned the corner in recent years from a financial and operational performance perspective, I just cannot see, for the life of me, why people still feel justified in defending this airline!?

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 39): TK is always an open option...

Hmmm... With some noise of a warming between India and Turkey (as far as air service), you have a point...

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 39): I think the difference is if this 9W-EY deal goes through, *A will have no other choice left. The disagreement in the first place was regarding whether both AI and 9W could be let in.

If that is a big enough point, I agree. However, 9W is still attractive for an alliance. Would *A really want to give them to Skyteam?

The next question, is would *A have any say?   
This will be the soap opera of a.net until 9W/EY makes a decision. As I stated above, I am of the opinion EY will align with Skyteam which will make Skyteam *the* mid-east force if QR doesn't grow OneWorld exceptionally quickly.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 39): However, it is hard to envision EY and *A partnering in any form...

Now why do you say that.  

Note: Sarcasm alert! I think we both know why *A isn't found of any of the mid-east carriers as they threaten the profits of TK, TI, SQ, LH, and the little Luftlets.  

Lightsaber

The only way AI is going to clean up its act, and clean it up enough to join StarA, is if it is privatised. This can only happen if its stakeholders (many of which are in the government) can come to the realisation that abusing it isn't helping it and the revenue it can bring.

AI can learn a thing or two from the Garuda story.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 41): Yes, but the tone of the responses made it seems as though I was only basing my statements off of ground services (see below post from aeroblogger) which is incorrect as I have also pointed to numerous other issues (HR, technical, management) that plagues the airline.

The issue with the product is ground services.

HR and management issues plague the airline definitely, but only affect the customer-facing product significantly during labor actions...

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 41): The ground experience both pre-departure and post trip each play a crucial role in the overall customer experience lifecycle as a less-than-stellar experience can have a irreversible detrimental affect on the future of passenger purchase behavior. Such was the case for my Mum, who was happy to trash her flying returns miles after what happened to her on the ground. A customer lost is a customer lost. Just look at UA: this year's revenue performance SHOULD have reflected gains from merger synergies, yet they took a dive while YoY revenues grew 10 PERCENT each at US Airways and Delta.

     

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 41): Back to the AI situation, put simply, there no real gains from flaunting characteristics like like good catering, comfy seats, IFE, pretty air hostesses, new planes and cheap fares to overcompensate for blatant flaws when these only represent some parts of the whole

Correct. But as I mentioned, customers don't care about mangement, HR, or financial issues the carrier is facing. The primary customer-facing flaws are lack of service culture (gov't organization) and awful ground services and IRROPS handling. Those things need to be worked on if AI wants to attract high yielding customers

However, there is a reason that AI has a lot of corporate contracts domestically - reliability is far superior, and the customer facing product is good. Internationally, the combination of more competition and worse reliability puts AI at a disadvantage.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 41): Exactly. With this kind of information in place, and without real, compelling evidence that AI has truly turned the corner in recent years from a financial and operational performance perspective, I just cannot see, for the life of me, why people still feel justified in defending this airline!?

Between 2007 and 2012 (not including strike period), Air India's on time record went from 51% to 86%. That is real, compelling evidence that AI turned the corner operationally.

Financially, the airline has not turned any corner, and is not likely to in the near future either. The only way AI is going to be turning the corner financially is:

Quoting infinit (Reply 43): if it is privatised.

  

Quoting infinit (Reply 43): AI can learn a thing or two from the Garuda story.

Air India can learn many things from the Garuda story. Sadly, nobody in the Indian government is interested in learning anything which doesn't involve increasing the balance of their own bank accounts.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 32): . As of yesterday, AI has had to issue a contingency plan against the strike threat from the 800-member Indian Commercial Pilots Assn (ICPA) by operating wide-body aircraft on domestic and short-haul international routes, taking 15 a/c on wet lease and requesting the Indian Air Force for pilots on a short-term basis. 2. AI is expected to post a USD $1.3 BILLION dollar loss, if not more, for the FY ending 31-MAR-13. The four remaining private carriers in the Indian commercialization market (GoAir, SpiceJet, IndiGo, Jet Airways/JetLite) are each expected to post profits, if they have not already. 3. AI may CURRENTLY have the highest-yielding domestic traffic in India, but there is little to no veritable proof out there that this is sustainable over the long run, especially with the current management in place. With the risk of your pilots going on strike, aircraft substitutions (using an inane strategy of deploying large-density planes on routes that can only support smaller-configured planes, which will tank yields) and the 787 grounded, the future looks pretty bleak. 4. LCCs like SpiceJet and IndiGo are successful, profitable, and gaining traction quickly.

There is no contigency plan. As per last directive issued by Ministry of Civil Aviation Goverment will not give into blackmail by any of the pilots union be it ICPA or IPG. They will be more than happy to keep the carrier shut for couple of more days. With things being bad in aviation sector i doubt pilots would like to do such a thing. (Remember Kingfisher staff has not been paid salaries, Jet Airways pays its flight crew in mid of the month so salary is effectively delayed by 15 days.)

As per profitability of domestic operations is concerned please note routes are profitable. I can put you up for a meeting in AI,s Rakabganj Office to clear your so called notions.

Spicejet/Indigo are making money simply by sale and lease back of their new aircrafts. Due to taxation structure none of the airlines are making money .

And last but not the least just because your mom couldnt manage to fight for her rights ie getting her ticket endorsed on an alternative carrier when her flight got cancelled doesnt mean the airline is bad. Service failure can happen with any airlines. I have been in a such situation i got my ticket endorsed on LH but it wasnt easy had to flight for it. None of the airlines will spread a red carpet for its flyers and be liberal in booking you to an alternative carrier each time a flight is cancelled as they would typically try to keep you on their own metal by changing the dates.

Quoting infinit (Reply 43): if it is privatised

It will never be privatized. Even if Indian Air Force takes over VVIP transportation, there are thousands of VIPs who prefer having a national airline which can cater to their requests.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 46): there are thousands of VIPs who prefer having a national airline which can cater to their requests.

That is why AI must be privatized. Having those seats go for free is killing AI.

Lightsaber

Quoting VIDP (Reply 45): Remember Kingfisher staff has not been paid salaries

Again, standard AI apologist defense mechanism to point outwardly to mask its own failures.

Mid month, 6 months, no months....it doesn't matter. AI pilots have not been paid!

Quoting VIDP (Reply 45): As per profitability of domestic operations is concerned please note routes are profitable. I can put you up for a meeting in AI,s Rakabganj Office to clear your so called notions.

Clearly, you don't bother to read my sentences fully before making accusations. I never said AI's domestic routes were unprofitable. In fact, I even said they were rather high yielding.

Yet again, you're glamorizing one aspect of the operation while failing to acknowledge that another part is hemorrhaging cash, aka AI's international operations. If you want to loop me in some talk points on how AI plans to solve that crisis, then I'll definitely take you up on the meeting offer, I'm damn curious to know what the carrier has planned!

Quoting VIDP (Reply 45): Spicejet/Indigo are making money simply by sale and lease back of their new aircrafts. Due to taxation structure none of the airlines are making money .

Source please. IndiGo is making money because it has a sound business model, and sticks to it. It is not immune to the same challenges that every other carrier faces in the Indian market: weak rupee, high taxes, escalating airport fees and fuel costs.

If you're going to pin its successes on aircraft, then you need to back it up with a credible source.

Quoting VIDP (Reply 45): And last but not the least just because your mom couldnt manage to fight for her rights ie getting her ticket endorsed on an alternative carrier when her flight got cancelled doesnt mean the airline is bad.

Quoting VIDP (Reply 45): None of the airlines will spread a red carpet for its flyers and be liberal in booking you to an alternative carrier each time a flight is cancelled as they would typically try to keep you on their own metal by changing the dates.

Again, you're jumping to conclusions and distorting facts without even fully reading my recollection of the story, clearly. It wasn't so much the end result that stung, but rather the correspondence with AI that was beyond egregious.

For starters, they never informed her, via e-mail notification nor system-generated response, that the nonstop ORD-DEL flight had been re-routed and re-timed to involve the FRA stopover after her itinerary was confirmed and ticketed. I was the one who had to call ahead of time and re-confirm the new flight times and we were assured that her connection would be protected.

After the delay and missed flight mishap, we aired our grievances to AI and they out-right LIED to us by telling her that the system generated an e-mail to her inbox after the flight times changed. We checked the spam inbox, everything and asked AI to send PROOF of this e-mail. They never followed through. It was a "cover-your-ass" move.

The biggest insult was that we not only would have to send reminder e-mails to AI to ask for them to follow-up on the case, but also that they didn't even BOTHER to check her records to realize that she was a frequent Flying Returns member who traveled on full-fare Premium class tickets several times a year. The bulk of the e-mail correspondences (since nobody would pick up the phones for the local AI ticket offices) would glamorize irrelevant details, such as AI's generous checked baggage allowances (very similar to what all of your apologists like to do on these threads) and failed to answer her questions.

When they suggested she enroll in Flying Returns, it was infuriating. As I stated earlier, definition of laziness beyond all measurable doubt that clearly indicated the airline places ZERO stock into valuing their high-revenue paying clientele, and then lies to them on top of it all.

It is a third-rate carrier and that is that.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 48): Mid month, 6 months, no months....it doesn't matter. AI pilots have not been paid!

Neither have 9W pilots... If the argument is that 9W should join *A instead of AI because pilots get paid, the argument is flat out wrong.

9W pilots are threatening strike for not being paid for multiple months by the way:
http://www.livemint.com/Companies/Zv...lack-bands-pilots-call-for-me.html

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 48): Clearly, you don't bother to read my sentences fully before making accusations. I never said AI's domestic routes were unprofitable. In fact, I even said they were rather high yielding. Yet again, you're glamorizing one aspect of the operation while failing to acknowledge that another part is hemorrhaging cash, aka AI's international operations. If you want to loop me in some talk points on how AI plans to solve that crisis, then I'll definitely take you up on the meeting offer, I'm damn curious to know what the carrier has planned!

AI and IC are still run as essentially seperate companies, as this merger was a total fail in every way imaginable. The point is that AI loses tons of money, while IC makes money, is reliable, and generally has a better reputation.

At one point last year, I flew IC twice a week. However, I still wouldn't fly AI unless there were no *A options which worked for me.

As far as I'm concerned, AI international would be better off shut down, or at least scaled down significantly. Other than maybe LHR or NYC, there's no reason that AI should be flying any further than SIN or HKG. It's simply not workable from a cash-flow perspective.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 48): Source please. IndiGo is making money because it has a sound business model, and sticks to it. It is not immune to the same challenges that every other carrier faces in the Indian market: weak rupee, high taxes, escalating airport fees and fuel costs.

http://articles.economictimes.indiat...1_1_rahul-bhatia-indigo-net-profit

As stated:
"But industry insiders feel that the profits reflected in IndiGo's balance sheet are not operational profits alone. Most aviation analysts and industry experts say IndiGo's rising profits are due to its sale and lease back income. Sale and lease back is a process where airlines sell aircraft to a leasing firm which then leases aircraft back to the original owner, helping the airlines to save on capital expenditure and improve balance sheet.

"The benchmark is SpiceJet and we can compare IndiGo to them. SpiceJet has 13% of passenger traffic share and it is likely to post a profit of 175-180 crore this year. These profits will be operational profits alone without the sale and lease back income. IndiGo has a 20% market share if we give it a premium of 1.5% for operational efficiency, it is most likely that their operational profits will be in the range of 370-400 crore for 2011, realistically speaking," said IDFC Securities MD Nikhil Vora."

6E is a well-run airline with a good business model, but the awful operating environment of India quells even that.