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gustywinds
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:04 am

Many of you have ignored the list posted in reply 17. Most F9 cities are already outsourced, so the customer service sky hasn't fallen yet. I find that contractors have more to lose so they go out of their way to do a good job. I have flown F9 out of PHF and been checked in by US. I have flown F9 to GRR and been checked in by AA Eagle. I have flown F9 out of SBA and been checked in by AA Eagle who were also checking in AS and AA at the same time. I have flown F9 to FAI, ANC, SJO, CUN, etc and have received great service from the contractors. Some of the best service I've ever received is by the contractors at BKG. It wasn't that long ago that US ground handled F9 in LAS or CO worked their flights at DFW.

F9 has economies of scale in DEN so it makes sense to have their own employees there. It wasn't that long ago that AS outsourced their entire ramp at their hub in SEA to Menzies. It supposedly saved them $13 million a year. AS outsources the ramp work in most of their cities.

Google Southwest Airlines and outsourcing and see what you get. Most airlines outsource some type of work.

This is not your grandpa's airline. F9 is becoming a ULCC and it must get its cost down to a level so that it can compete with any airline out there. This is certainly not desperation as insuated by some posters. Big business isn't always pretty.
 
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mariner
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:08 am

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 46):
It would not be far fetched in my opinion for Frontier to simply close its doors and cut its losses........management is trying to salvage a sinking ship.

Um - you do understand that Frontier is operating profitably and will report a full year profit for the first time since 2003?

Quoting n7371f (Reply 48):
God bless you, because your positive reaction to this is as expected as the sun rising from the east. If Frontier were to announce they were putting a giant turd on their tails tomorrow, you'd like the move.

And bless you, too.  

I wonder what is inaccurate in anything I have posted in this thread?

mariner
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Cubsrule
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:10 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 50):
I hope they really don't believe that will somehow negate the fact that these people have no real dedication to the airline...no incentive to excel, to go above and beyond, to really give a damn...because they are paid bottom of the barrel wages and are offered little in terms of benefits from the handling company itself, and nothing from the airline.

You are painting with far too broad a brush. Remember a little airline called YX that was renowned for its customer service? News flash - they outsourced most outstations. In BNA, at least toward the end, MQ handled them. There's good outsourcing (save money but enforce standards) and bad outsourcing (spend as little as possible). It's hard to know which path F9 will choose.
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F9Animal
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:10 am

Time to chime. I have been gritting my teeth all day. And I am going to vent. What happened today has been planned for over a year. Cliff left because he knew he could not watch this happen. Bryan Bedford continues to thump his bible, and sell his soul to the devil. I was once a fan of Bedford, but now I see him as another greedy CEO. And please, dont take the time to correct me, or explain to me that this is good business. It will only piss me off more. Many of my friends got knocked to their knees today, and many tears have been dripping. Some of you just crunch numbers, and applaud this move, without giving one shit about the hundreds of lives hurt by this.

Frontier is not a whole different animal anymore. None of the core values of this airline are valid anymore. And sadly, the animals have no character anymore. I have seen many dreams destroyed. Many routes cut. Pathetic leadership come and go. This airline once cherished its guests. Now it cherishes every ancillary fee that passenger pays. Dont expect anymore good customer service, as it is on its way out. I cant defend the airline anymore. I cant cheerlead and argue that this airline will survive. I am jumping ship, and admitting that this airline has officially started taking on water. The ship has hit the iceberg, and it is on borrowed time.

Sorry all.. I am very emotional over this.... Again... Please dont quote me and try sugar coating it. I wont eat sugar coated crap. Nor am I in the mood to argue dollars and cents.
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mariner
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:14 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 50):
I called them out on FB about it, and I got a pretty generic reply about how all the vendors will be trained like current staff.

What - exactly - did you expect?

mariner
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MSYtristar
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:15 am

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 51):
Most F9 cities are already outsourced,

28 left to go. Some bigger stations, too.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 51):
so the customer service sky hasn't fallen yet

Not yet, but it will once they all get transitioned.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 51):
. I find that contractors have more to lose so they go out of their way to do a good job

Maybe cleaning crews. I haven't experienced a time when a contract agent checking me in or working the gate is better or even equal to an airline employee, and I've flown on 40 airlines and have visited 79 airports.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 51):
F9 has economies of scale in DEN so it makes sense to have their own employees there.

So the fact that DEN is all F9 and every other city will be non-F9 is okay with you? It's called inconsistent.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 51):
Most airlines outsource some type of work.

Pretty sure that's a well known fact.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 51):
This is certainly not desperation as insuated by some posters.

Only people that would know that are probably DS and BB. Otherwise it's all speculation.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 51):
Big business isn't always pretty.

Nope. It's ruthless. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
 
ridgid727
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:16 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 48):
God bless you, because your positive reaction to this is as expected as the sun rising from the east. If Frontier were to announce they were putting a giant turd on their tails tomorrow, you'd like the move.

Too funny!
I almost choked on my diet coke when I read that I was laughing so hard.

This move should be good for the likes of most other airlines.

Wasnt Republic a company that provided outsourcing one time at a bunch of midwester stations?
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:16 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 55):
What - exactly - did you expect?

I expected what I got, basically.
 
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mariner
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:18 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 56):
Only people that would know that are probably DS and BB. Otherwise it's all speculation.

No, it is not. It is public knowledge on Wall Street.

And odd that you would not include the CEO in your list.

mariner
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MSYtristar
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:18 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 53):
You are painting with far too broad a brush. Remember a little airline called YX that was renowned for its customer service? News flash - they outsourced most outstations. I

YX was renowned for its inflight service moreso than its ground service I'd say.

I don't think even Spirit outsources all of its outstations.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:21 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 59):
No, it is not. It is public knowledge on Wall Street.

And odd that you would not include the CEO in your list.

Ok...so it's public knowledge.

Not odd...BB and DS were just the first names that came to my mind. That's about it.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:22 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 60):
YX was renowned for its inflight service moreso than its ground service I'd say.

Maybe so, but isn't the same true of Frontier? I don't think anyone is really renowned for its ground service.

I never had a bad experience on the ground on YX, and the closest I came to bad experiences were probably all in MKE.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
hiflyeras
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:23 am

I worked for a dying airline back in the '80s. We all had a blind eye to what was happening around us....until eventually they gave us one week notice that the company was closing. F9 employees....ground and air...should start their job search now. The writing is on the wall for you...don't wait until the bitter end.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:26 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 62):
Maybe so, but isn't the same true of Frontier? I don't think anyone is really renowned for its ground service.

A long time ago maybe. Inflight service has gone downhill over the past few years, but it has always been, at least, consistent. Renowned might be too strong a word for ground service, but I'm sure you'd agree that some airlines stick out in your mind as better than others in customer facing areas...or at least used to be.
 
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mariner
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:27 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 61):
Not odd...BB and DS were just the first names that came to my mind. That's about it.

The CEO is the most important person is this process. He sees it differently from you:

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...rlines-posted-third-quarter-profit

"Frontier Airlines posted third quarter profit

Frontier Airlines, a subsidiary of Republic Airways Holdings, reported a third quarter pre-tax income of $29.8 million on Thursday. This marks a vast improvement over its pre-tax loss of $1.5 million posted for the same quarter last year."


On December 31st, 2012, guidance was raised for Frontier's 4Q margins and the RJET stock has gone from (about) $5.60 to $8.50 in that month.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-05 19:31:55]
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MSYtristar
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:35 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 65):
The CEO sees it differently from you:

I'm happy they made a profit.

That being said, I do not support this move, regardless of the positive financial impact it may have. The money saved could end up being money lost if people are put off by the new brand of Frontier customer service which is on its way, and choose to go to other carriers. I can't and won't blindly endorse flying F9 like I have for many years. My two cents.
 
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mariner
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:38 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 66):
That being said, I do not support this move, regardless of the positive financial impact it may have.

I got that - many times over.

But - however you feel - the primary responsibility of the airline is to its shareholders and its primary function is to be profitable.

mariner
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kingcavalier
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:39 am

60% of F9's cities are already outsourced. That is a point that so many keep dismissing. When was the last time F9 opened a city with its own employees? Why would the customer service suddenly deteriorate when the remaining non-DEN small cities also go contract?

Supposedly, F9 is offering severance packages to the affected employees, which it doesn't have to do. All of the remaining cities will be phased in, and the employees will get up to 12 weeks notice.

F9's business model has changed. They no longer fly multiple frequencies every day of the week to every destination. They now fly seasonal, sub daily flights. It's simply too expensive to maintain staff, training, recruiting, benefits, ground equipment, etc. in cities with 1 flight a day or 3 flights a week. In order to make it attractive to the ground handling companies of the world F9 had to offer the larger LAX's and DFW's along with the smaller field stations like FLL and BNA.

It is very sad for the affected ground employees, but in reality, the major faces of F9 will still be there. As the majority of passengers now check in online, is it really that important who they drop their checked baggage off with? Most managers will still be there and will have even more important roles as they become like regional managers with feet on the ground overseeing contractors and ensuring F9 standards. The trainers are still F9. The DEN hub is still F9. Maintenance, reservations, pilots and flight attendants are still F9. With all due respect to my fellow customer service employees on the ground, flight attendants spend the most time with passengers and are truly the face of any airline. None of that has changed.
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MSYtristar
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:40 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 67):
But - however you feel - the primary responsibility of the airline is to its shareholders and its primary function is to be profitable.

Of course it is. And if they feel that decreasing the quality of their product will lead to profitability, more power to them.
 
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mariner
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:45 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 69):
Of course it is.

I'm glad you understand that.

For the longest time, people saying that Frontier was doomed because it wasn't making money. It is bizarre that people are now saying it is doomed because it is making money.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-05 19:50:02]
aeternum nauta
 
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illinoisman
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:50 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 54):
I was once a fan of Bedford, but now I see him as another greedy CEO.

Amen brother! I tried preaching to the choir but it fell on deaf ears!
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:54 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 70):
I'm glad you understand that.

And, monetary issues aside, I take it you understand that this move probably won't have a positive impact on Frontier passengers, correct? Especially folks who travel a lot.
 
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mariner
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:01 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 72):
And, monetary issues aside, I take it you understand that this move probably won't have a positive impact on Frontier passengers, correct? Especially folks who travel a lot.

Because I don't believe it will. But if you think customer service at outsourced MSY is inferior, it's odd that you haven't mentioned it before.

And I'm sure the outsourced staff at MSY would be interested to know that's what you think.

mariner
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gustywinds
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:06 am

MSYTristar - Can you agree that frequent travelers probably check in online and print their boarding passes at home? Or they stop at a kiosk? How much of the overall travel experience is really dedicated to dropping off a checked bag at the counter? Is it not more important where Frontier flies, what it's policies and fares are or what the inflight experience is like? Does any of this really matter if there is no F9? I certainly don't think passengers are flocking to EasyJet, Spirit and Allegiant because their ticket counter experience is so joyful.

All any of you need to do is to look at all of the current F9 contracted cities, like MSY, and ask yourself has anything changed for F9's passengers? What has changed is F9 is currently profitable.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:10 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 73):
But if you think customer service at outsourced MSY is inferior, it's odd that you haven't mentioned it before.

Why would that be odd? I have not flown F9 out of MSY since 2005. My trip to TTN earlier this week was canceled.

Quoting mariner (Reply 73):
And I'm sure the outsourced staff at MSY would be interested to know that's what you think.

Well I can't speak for something I haven't experienced. Like I mentioned earlier, I rarely have experienced a time when outsourced staff was as up to par with everything as airline staff was. Perhaps things are different in your neck of the woods.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:14 am

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 74):
MSYTristar - Can you agree that frequent travelers probably check in online and print their boarding passes at home? Or they stop at a kiosk? How much of the overall travel experience is really dedicated to dropping off a checked bag at the counter? Is it not more important where Frontier flies, what it's policies and fares are or what the inflight experience is like? Does any of this really matter if there is no F9? I certainly don't think passengers are flocking to EasyJet, Spirit and Allegiant because their ticket counter experience is so joyful.

All any of you need to do is to look at all of the current F9 contracted cities, like MSY, and ask yourself has anything changed for F9's passengers? What has changed is F9 is currently profitable.

I agree that less time is spent at the counter. But there's been a huge push to get as many bags checked as possible, and that involves a lot of interaction with passengers who are at the kiosk and try to go right to the gate with a a large bag that will have to be gate checked. And then at the gate, there is more customer interaction than there ever has been. So I think the overall quality of the employee is still paramount, and seasoned travelers can certainly tell the difference between people who want to be there and people who are just there for a check.
 
brilondon
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:15 am

I rarely if ever have to go to the counter and when I do, it is just to drop off my bag and to say hello. I believe that would be the reason that airlines are using the kiosks and have on line check in where you can print boarding passes and get seat assignments. I can see why the airlines are doing this and the blame should be put on the passengers who demand low ticket prices. It is a competitive market for sure and any way the airlines can reduce their costs, they are doing it.
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MSYtristar
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:18 am

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 74):
All any of you need to do is to look at all of the current F9 contracted cities, like MSY, and ask yourself has anything changed for F9's passengers?

I still think it's going to be a huge consistency issue once all the stations are outsourced while DEN will not be. We can agree to disagree.
 
m11stephen
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:21 am

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 68):
With all due respect to my fellow customer service employees on the ground, flight attendants spend the most time with passengers and are truly the face of any airline. None of that has changed.

That couldn't be any more false. Anytime a passenger has a problem it is always the CSA that handles it. Delayed flight? CSA. Cancelled flight? CSA. Change flight? CSA. Stranded overnight in a strange city? CSA. Ticketing issue? CSA. Lost bag? CSA. Family seated all over the plane? CSA. What major customer service issues do F/As completely handle on their own without the assistance of the CSA?
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
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mariner
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:22 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 75):
I have not flown F9 out of MSY since 2005.

Oh, well, in that case, Frontier has been outsourced at MSY for a very long time. It doesn't seem to have had any adverse effect.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 75):
Perhaps things are different in your neck of the woods.

I can't say. I seldom use the check-in desk - it's almost all self service in my neck of the woods, no lines, quick and easy - and I never know whether staff are outsourced or not, nor do I see any reason to ask.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-05 20:32:37]
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LAXintl
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:28 am

I think we knew this was on the way a few months ago.

I posted in one of the Frontier threads they had been quietly seeking handling binds in large stations like LAX and SFO while not back filling some vacant positions.

Now it makes sense.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
mci10
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:06 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 48):
No wonder why Cliff VanLuven escaped a few months ago. This was coming down the line...

Exactly! I think it was the writing on the wall. When you have your VP of Customer Service leave, its not a good sign of whats to come.
 
FRNT787
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:10 am

At the risk of sounding like one who would applaud a turd on a tail or worship at the ground of Frontier executives, I can't see how this is such a problem. The largest stations will have 4 flights a day. Many airlines would have outsourced those stations. Why should an airline keep a staff on for 3 flights a week?

I read this thread and the one thing that sticks in my mind is that this effects 40% of stations. 60% are handled by other companies already. This does not represent a gigantic change.

Frontier's business model has evolved significantly over the last few years. That is a welcome change to me, as the previous business model was largely unsuccessful. Love them or hate them, the management team in place has accomplished something few Frontier teams in the past have: A full year profit.
 
mci10
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:19 am

Now I know in the business world making profits is what a company is gauged on. And I understand that Frontier had to make this choice. But if Frontier had to cut this much cost to make a profit, it does not say much for the revenues there are expecting. I am thinking Frontier is not doing as well as we think right now.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:39 am

Frontiers business model? You call it a friggin model? Really? Seriously? Lets see how this model became what it is. Not necessarily in chronological order. Nor even logical. This was piss poor leadership here.

Buy Midwest. Buy Frontier. Keep them seperate. Merge them. Have the public decide what name stays. Build up MKE. Cut the RJs. Cut the 170s. Slash MKE. Slash MCI. Reduce the Q400. Keep a few Q400s. Remove the Q400s. Remove the 190s. Build up COS. Cut COS. Keep the cookie. Remove the cookie. Move Frontier Corporate to IND from DEN. Move Frontier Corporate back to DEN. Order the C Series for Frontier. Decide the C Series would not go to Frontier. Add this city. Remove this ciry. Add another city, remove that city. Buy Frontier. Sell Frontier. Build up Trenton............................. Layoff all outstation employees, replace with cheaper vendors.

The above is proof of terrible, stupid, idiotic leadership choices. Millions upon millions wasted. Terrible knee jerk reactions. Constant shafting, constant unsure of themselves leadership. While this appears to be a business model to some, I see it as a business disaster. An absolute business disaster. The icing on the cake for me was todays announcement. While some obviously applaud it, I absolutely hate it. Take the animals off the tails. Remove all the whole different animal slogans. This is not Frontier Airlines anymore. Today struck my last nerve. Spiegel will do like he did at US Airways, and jump with a beautiful golden parachute. This ship is taking on water, and workers are being thrown overboard. Anyone thinking they are safe in DEN better get their resumes updated. The writing is on the wall.
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nutsaboutplanes
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:46 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 47):
Help me with how outsourcing stations with two flights a day - something most other carriers did years ago - is necessarily "last ditch." I don't see it.



First, its not just stations with two flights a day and second, you can not judge an airline or any business for that matter by their financial performance during a single year. If one looks at trends and the fact that this has been a very successful year for most major airlines, the small profit that is expected will not be good news. While a profit is of course a positive, the small profit will be an indicator of the depth of the financial issues at F9.

I defend this move by F9 leadership but I also see it as extreme and aggressive.....hence the "last-ditch".
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:12 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 60):
YX was renowned for its inflight service moreso than its ground service I'd say.

Which I would think proves the point to a degree that the ground handling is not necessarily going to make or break the airline. If it were, and if they outsourced, it would seem like they would not have been as popular with their passengers. I chose not to use the word successful because obviously things didn't work out for them too well.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 62):

Maybe so, but isn't the same true of Frontier? I don't think anyone is really renowned for its ground service.

True.

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 68):
The DEN hub is still F9.

Some of my least favorite ground handling experiences have been by Alaska Airlines in Seattle - their home. Great employees at most of their outstations (I have no clue if they were contract or company employees) but in Seattle I've seen it all.

I would also go out on a limb and say that sometimes these smaller stations have far better service on the ground than some of the bigger stations, and I can't imagine that all of those operations were in-house.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 85):
I absolutely hate it. Take the animals off the tails. Remove all the whole different animal slogans. This is not Frontier Airlines anymore. Today struck my last nerve.

I actually appreciated your reply #85. I think you made a good case for why you feel the way you feel, and I think in many respects people that are cool to Frontier or it's recent history would point to your litany of failures as the reason why. I would just say that I think one thing that would help eliminate - or at least mitigate to a degree - the emotional vitriol towards them would be to not be so vested emotionally in them to begin with.

That's not to say that we shouldn't like these airlines or these empoyers, or shouldn't expect to be treated well as an employee or as a customer, but at some point I believe that we as enthusiasts and/or workers become enamored with how we "feel" about an alrline and what it "stands for" and how "great" they are - until one day we wake up and things have changed, and now we are suddenly feeling let down, betrayed, etc. In the end, it's a business. It's marketing to the customers. It's marketing to the employees. It's marketing to the shareholders. It's marketing to the communities it serves. It's striving to make a buck. Expecting something "special" from that, while certainly noble and endearing, might be setting oneself up for a huge emotional disappointment. I've done it. I get vested in companies in that way. I'm probably that way at times with my own employer. I'm not criticizing. I just think we are expecting too much from these businesses in meeting our own personal expectations.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 85):
Anyone thinking they are safe in DEN better get their resumes updated. The writing is on the wall.

Frankly, with all due respect to Frontier and Republic, they should have done this a long time ago. LIke somewhere up near the beginning of your list of Frontier Fouls. Failing to do so given the roller coaster that has been going on there would seem to me that they either don't care, aren't aware, or are somehow blindly hoping that things will always go right. I wish them the best with that. My last employer was a great place to work and very successful, but outside factors cut them off at the knees. Forty-five days after I left the employees all showed up to locked doors. Game over.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
b737100
Posts: 129
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 7:29 pm

RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:23 am

I shall always remember the words on the back of my first airline ID card.."AN AIRLINE IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE PEOPLE THAT WORK FOR IT"..that was a long time ago and the world has changed. All the best and good luck to the F9 staff being laid off.
Boeing 737 sunjet service
 
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mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:55 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 81):
I posted in one of the Frontier threads they had been quietly seeking handling binds in large stations like LAX and SFO while not back filling some vacant positions.

Now it makes sense.

Indeed, and I assume it is a step towards fuller automation of the check-in process, as already happens in so many places. Kiosks (and Smartphone apps) rule.

Ryanair in the UK charges for manual check-in and Air New Zealand actively discourages it when kiosks are available. I've had two trips to Australia in the past few months- three airlines, eight check-in's and I never had the need to do it manually.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MSYtristar
Topic Author
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:44 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 87):
Which I would think proves the point to a degree that the ground handling is not necessarily going to make or break the airline.

It can though. Especially if it wasn't contracted out from the start. If you had your own staff for years, and then go the low road, of course people will notice...especially those who fly frequently. I'm certainly not the only one who feels this way.

In conclusion, I don't have much more to say except that there has always been, and always will be, a noticeable difference in the overall quality of service provided by people who work for the airline and people who are just there to make a paycheck. Are there exceptions? Sure. But they are few and far between. At least some stations (28, which is a decent number) were hanging on to F9 staff. And what's worse, you'll have an inconsistent experience if you're flying Frontier...which is something I've always hated, and which is something an airline airline like Southwest, for example always has never offered. They are as consistent as it gets. Corporate can spin it as much as they want...the fact is, it will be inconsistent. Some may say this is much ado about nothing or that as long as the airline makes a profit, who cares how they get there. If you degrade service quality, the airline will eventually suffer. But don't just take my word for it. Go read some comments on the F9 facebook page for starters talking about the "wonderful" service offered by contract staff. I've always prided myself on customer service, so every time I travel, I notice things. It makes a huge difference if you have your own people. More power to F9 management if this was the best they could come up with or if they think this is the way of the future for the airline. I just happen to think it's pathetic. Carry on.
 
FRNT787
Posts: 377
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:00 pm

Quoting F9animal (Reply 85):
You call it a friggin model?

Many of those moves were the right ones. Merging Frontier with an airline giving it eastern hubs fixed a problem frontier always had: DEN. Yes, that's their home, but their needed to be more. Every F9 management team ha tried to find something more. Getting rid of the Q400s made sense. They did not need those and the E-Jets. They came back because the contract fell through, and RAH could find anyone to even lease the planes, odd considering how magical people here find it. As to dropping and adding cities: airlines do this all the time. Can we really expect a small airline to fly nonprofitable routes. Perhaps they should just fly LAX 5 times a day, and LAS 6 times a day, and lose buckets of money like they used to. Yes, many of republics decisions needed changing, but at least they did change them. They have been a very aggressive company trying to improve Frontier. Without them: Frontier would not exist. Besides, there have been many poor strategic decisions prior to republic. I have work in an hour, so no time to list them all.

The fleet change back to only airbus is a critical phase of the transition to ULCC. That transition as proven critical as well. Frontier of old failed. It is naive to keep wishing for its return.

Just like I said in the old thread: Like them or not, this management team has achieved something few F9 management teams have before: A full year profit.

That result seems better for the airline, than sticking out unprofitable routes, keeping an operation that did not add to the brand (Lynx), and flying routes like they used to.

This is still Frontier Airlines. It is just not the old frontier anymore. And seeing where the old frontier got them, that would seem a good thing to me.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 77):
I can see why the airlines are doing this and the blame should be put on the passengers who demand low ticket prices. It is a competitive market for sure and any way the airlines can reduce their costs, they are doing it.



Blaming the customer! For what spending money! The customer can only buy a ticket priced by an airline, they don't make up the fare they are going to pay. If said airline offers low fares to attract customers then is it the customers fault for buying the ticket. I just don't understand the logic in blaming a customer for business.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
nkops
Posts: 2237
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:04 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 77):
and the blame should be put on the passengers

Bold... blame the ones that are paying the bills....
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 6073
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:12 pm

Realistically guys, F9 in its current form is not long for this world.

This company will be bought, merged, or cease to exist at some point in the near future. This is yet another step in that direction.

5 years ago, this airline was modeled as a B6 of the mountain west. The model caused them to lose a lot of money. Since then it has been reinvention after reinvention.

Allegiant has proved that you can run a small airline profitably by flying to tertiary airports from vacation hot spots like LAS.

F9 is now trying this approach with Trenton. It already failed in COS. Aviation history shows that Allegiant is the exception to the rule due to relevance. How relevant is F9 in its market place today? What is its marketplace? I think those 2 questions need to be answered.

In the meantime, they will continue to trim all fat possible to make themselves lean and mean.

I can not help but think a staple to the bottom of the WN pilot list would have been better for these guys
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:39 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 95):
Realistically guys, F9 in its current form is not long for this world.

This company will be bought, merged, or cease to exist at some point in the near future. This is yet another step in that direction.

5 years ago, this airline was modeled as a B6 of the mountain west. The model caused them to lose a lot of money. Since then it has been reinvention after reinvention.

Allegiant has proved that you can run a small airline profitably by flying to tertiary airports from vacation hot spots like LAS.

F9 is now trying this approach with Trenton. It already failed in COS. Aviation history shows that Allegiant is the exception to the rule due to relevance. How relevant is F9 in its market place today? What is its marketplace? I think those 2 questions need to be answered.

In the meantime, they will continue to trim all fat possible to make themselves lean and mean.

I can not help but think a staple to the bottom of the WN pilot list would have been better for these

You hit the nail on the head and are dead on the money. Well said. The bottom line is, they need to pick a model and stick with it. From the looks they are between a NK and G4 right now.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2868
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:10 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Thread starter):
Anyone know what's up?

Reply 65 has a link regarding Frontier's Profit. These two are specifically regarding the outsourcing:



Courtesy: Denver Business Journal

Frontier Airlines Outsourcing Hundreds Of Jobs

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/mo...airlines-outsourcing-hundreds.html


Courtesy: The Denver Post

Frontier Airlines To Outsource Some Jobs At Stations Outside Denver

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...urce-some-jobs-at-stations-outside
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:40 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 90):
At least some stations (28, which is a decent number) were hanging on to F9 staff. And what's worse, you'll have an inconsistent experience if you're flying Frontier...which is something I've always hated, and which is something an airline airline like Southwest, for example always has never offered.

But there is this:

Southwest Wants To Begin Outsourcing Employees (by swa4life Jun 19 2012 in Civil Aviation)

And this:

http://www.timesdispatch.com/busines...1-156a-5362-90fc-05900a6b4005.html

"Southwest outsourcing RIC ground workers' jobs"

And this:

http://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/uni...est-wants-outsource-164336219.html

"Union says Southwest wants to outsource some jobs

Union workers protest against Southwest, say airline trying to outsource some jobs"


As to the complaints on Frontier's Facebook, go back a bit further in time and read some of the extremely negative posts about the in-house CSA's.

Facebook is sound-off - a place to vent, about anything - as you did yesterday.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-06 09:43:59]
aeternum nauta
 
rampart
Posts: 1800
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:58 am

RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:47 pm

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 71):
Amen brother! I tried preaching to the choir but it fell on deaf ears!

I say this not as grammar policeman of mixed metaphors but as message critic. Based on your stance compared to others on the "life and times of Frontier" threads, this was not your choir. Your choir was elsewhere. Secondly, choirs don't have deaf ears. Rather the opposite, preaching to your choir they hear everything you say and agree. But this wasn't your choir. And before anyone goes into an "I told you so!" celebration dance, remind yourselves that you are celebrating in front of employees losing jobs, customers striving to make good consumer decisions by encouraging choices, and corporate leaders giving heart and soul to make things work. There, but for the grace of God (Amen brother!), go you.  

-Rampart
 
MSYtristar
Topic Author
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:52 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 98):
Facebook is sound-off - a place to vent, about anything - as you did yesterday.

And quite a few people seem to have agreed with what I wrote. I didn't just go there to vent. I went there to share my opinion, as I did here. People can agree with it or disagree.

As for the links you've posted, I've never denied the fact that other airlines outsource. I just think the degree in which F9 has decided to do it is a poor, reactionary move. And again I'll throw out the word inconsistent, because that's the service Frontier passengers will get once all the stations are outsourced. Corporate can spin it all they want, but the service will decline.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7111
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:58 pm

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 68):
60% of F9's cities are already outsourced. That is a point that so many keep dismissing.

Even if 60% of outstations are now outsourced, it's still likely that a majority of passengers in the outstations are currently served by actual F9 employees. If we make the not unreasonable assumption that the average outsourced station sees one daily flight, while the average insourced station sees three daily flights, then two-thirds of passengers in the outstations are still served by F9 employees on the ground. (0.4x3 = 1.2; 0.6x1=0.6, 1.2/(1.2+0.6) = 2/3)

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 91):
Merging Frontier with an airline giving it eastern hubs fixed a problem frontier always had: DEN.

Except they tried to merge it with an airline with even bigger problems and that ended up being a disaster. And where exactly are those eastern hubs now?

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