miaintl
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:49 am

Most of LH's 744 are in terrible shape. None of them have ptvs and all have very outdated cabins.
 
wilco737
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:51 am

Quoting miaintl (Reply 50):
Most of LH's 744 are in terrible shape. None of them have ptvs and all have very outdated cabins.

Well,

All Lufthansa Widebodys Now Have Avod In Y (by LH422 Feb 7 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Looks like all have the new cabin now, and AVOD in Y class. So your statement is not really up to date anymore.

They are old, but technically in great shape. As I stated above they reliability is amazing.

wilco737
  
 
miaintl
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:56 am

I last flew them in 2010 on the FRA-MIA route, so maybe things have changed since then. But I remember being really surprised that they had not put Ptvs yet.
 
wilco737
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:58 am

Quoting miaintl (Reply 52):

I last flew them in 2010 on the FRA-MIA route, so maybe things have changed since then. But I remember being really surprised that they had not put Ptvs yet.

A lot has changed since 2010 apparently and more to change in the next years.

In 2010 not a lot were refurbished, but now they all are.

wilco737
  
 
travelavnut
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:58 am

Quoting miaintl (Reply 50):

Most of LH's 744 are in terrible shape.

Go wash your mouth! And it's off to bed without diner for you!!
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na
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:00 am

Quoting miaintl (Reply 50):

Most of LH's 744 are in terrible shape. None of them have ptvs and all have very outdated cabins.

Complete rubbish. Terrible shape means they would be in bad condition. Nothing could be further from the truth.
And, they all have new seats now.

What is that everyone is so obsessed about PTV in Eco? Its fine, but not decisive for me when booking. Reading a good book or magazine is as good, or better, than staring at another screen.
 
wilco737
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:02 am

Quoting na (Reply 55):
What is that everyone is so obsessed about PTV in Eco? Its fine, but not decisive for me when booking. Reading a good book or magazine is as good, or better, than staring at another screen.

Amen to that. I totally agree. Shouldn't other factors be more important than AVOD? as everybody has a tablet these days anyway, most doesn't care about it.

When I book a flight I check for other information than the AVOD...

wilco737
  

[Edited 2013-02-07 03:05:05]
 
skipness1E
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:07 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 56):

Amen to that. I totally agree. Shouldn't other factors be more important than AVOD? as everybody has a tablet these days anyway, most doesn't care about it.

Not that's not the case. Any airline in taking a product to market needs to be aware of what the market expects. It *DEMANDS* PTV for long haul nowadays. Now I agree, I read a book or a mag or stare at the wonder of nature. I also get excited in flying on a particular aircraft type. In marketing terms, I, and most peeps on here, are outlyers.

The biggest gripe on feedback is often a lack of AVOD and entertainment on an old school loop.
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Loran
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:41 am

Quoting na (Reply 49):
Two Southern Air 742SF (ex KLM) with around 135.000 hours are the recordholders in hours (and probably of all airplanes as I never heard about a higher number, not even from the sturdy DC-10 of which some also reached 120k)

These are the ones I was referring to, thanks. I think under certain circumstances extensions are granted, sometimes the OEMs also offer life extension kits to extend the cycle or hour limits, not sure if this was the case here though.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 50):
Most of LH's 744 are in terrible shape. None of them have ptvs and all have very outdated cabins.

You didn't get the point of this discussion. It is not about a particular Y product, it is about the technical condition of the LH airframes which is in no doubt excellent.

Quoting na (Reply 55):
What is that everyone is so obsessed about PTV in Eco? Its fine, but not decisive for me when booking. Reading a good book or magazine is as good, or better, than staring at another screen.

Couldn't agree more, my AVOD is the window view. At max I will have the flight info on the screen if available. I actually prefer aircraft without AVOD so that I dont have the annoying IFE box under the seat.

Regards,
Loran

[Edited 2013-02-07 04:04:33]
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djb77
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:46 am

I flew D-ABVC last back in 2007 Frankfurt > Bangalore in economy and then a couple of days later Bangalore > Frankfurt in business. Although not fitted out with PTV or the likes in economy, the aircraft was like new in every other respect, the then new business product impressed me at the time.

I certainly had no idea then that the aircraft was a 1989 build...

Well done, Lufthansa. And Boeing for creating such a great product in the first place!
 
UALWN
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:48 am

Quoting Loran (Reply 58):
Couldn't agree more, my AVOD is the window view. At max I will have the flight info on the screen if available.

Exactly! For me, the advantage of AVOD is that I can have the flight info on throughout the whole flight!

Quoting Loran (Reply 58):
I actually prefer aircraft without AVOD so that I dont have the annoying IFE box under the seat.

I recently had to endure ZRH-GRU in an LX A340-300 with said box in the A row in Y, and it was not fun.
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FlyingAY
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:19 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 56):
Amen to that. I totally agree. Shouldn't other factors be more important than AVOD? as everybody has a tablet these days anyway, most doesn't care about it.
Quoting Loran (Reply 58):
Couldn't agree more, my AVOD is the window view. At max I will have the flight info on the screen if available. I actually prefer aircraft without AVOD so that I dont have the annoying IFE box under the seat.

The forums always get full of comments from people who know how other people should spend their flight. For me an economy class long haul flight is a 10-hour misery and all means to pass my time are welcome - including PTVs. Travelling on business I've got my laptop and no wish to drag any more hardware (tablet) with me and when travelling on leisure I prefer to not take any computers or tablets with me. Now I don't fly FR myself, but I don't question other people's choice of travelling on that airline - it's their choice and they're free to make it.

My last LH 744 flight was the D-ABVW which is one of the newer 744s. As many have said here, it was maintained meticulously and the cabin was in good shape. Only the design and the colour of the plastic might tell you that it's not from this century.
 
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Loran
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:30 pm

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 61):

I agree with you, its everyone's own choice. I was just - like you are - sharing my own point of view. There is a parallel dicussion live which deals exactly with this topic:

All Lufthansa Widebodys Now Have Avod In Y (by LH422 Feb 7 2013 in Civil Aviation)

I suggest we return to the technical conversation about LH's utilization which is much more interesting.

Regards,
Loran
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Archer
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:37 pm

Just a note to see how amazing this is - I believe there are 8,765 hours in a year (calculator not nearby).

Divide that into the 120,000 and that means this airliner flew time equal to January 1st thru December 31st for. what
was said above, 13 years plus!!! How many gallons of fuel?

Wow!
 
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zkojq
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:27 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 45):
D-ABTK is the one with the least hours: roughly 57,000 hours.

I assume it has the least because of the time it spent in maintenance after the gear collapse incident in 2007?

Quoting Loran (Reply 44):
D-ABVK 747-400 30.11.2011 112'093.00 13'470.00

Does anyone know if the date of D-ABVK's retirement been set yet? Given that it has the 6th highest hours in the 747 fleet, I assume it will be leaving the fleet sometime soon? (D-ABVK is the most recent 747 I've flown on).

Quoting na (Reply 49):
Two Southern Air 742SF (ex KLM) with around 135.000 hours are the recordholders in hours (and probably of all airplanes as I never heard about a higher number, not even from the sturdy DC-10 of which some also reached 120k)

Quite an achievement.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 50):
Most of LH's 744 are in terrible shape. None of them have ptvs and all have very outdated cabins.

I agree that the grey cloth seats look rather ugly and old fashioned, but things have changed. PTVs have been added and the new seat covers look much better than the old ones.

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Quoting na (Reply 55):
What is that everyone is so obsessed about PTV in Eco?

Because carrying around books, magazines and laptops = carrying around extra weight with one's hand luggage. Additionally, us younger folk have very short attention spans when it comes to non-digital entertainment. PTVs in economy is a standard that long-haul passengers have come to expect for the last few years. I'm glad Lufthansa has now fitted all of its widebodies with proper PTVs.

Quoting Loran (Reply 58):
I actually prefer aircraft without AVOD so that I dont have the annoying IFE box under the seat.

I think the issue with the IFE boxes causing legroom problems is specific to some IFE systems.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 60):
I recently had to endure ZRH-GRU in an LX A340-300 with said box in the A row in Y, and it was not fun.

Ditto, but it was a Lufthansa A340 (D-AIFF) between HKG and MUC.
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Speedbird741
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:04 pm

Very sad to see these beautiful birds go. They have served us very well and will, thankfully, continue to serve us and grace the skies for another 15-20 years. Bye bye victor charlie, and say hello to my beautiful G-BNLB when you meet him in 747 heaven  

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747classic
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:15 pm

New rules for WFD (Widespread Fatigue Damage ) are limiting the flight hours and cycles of all aircraft as of July 2013.

See this recent article in Boeing Aero about this subject : http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/2012_q4/2/

For all aircraft types (and sub types) a limit of validity (LOV) is (or will be) established.
In fact this is the technical limit for that particular type of aircraft. No technical support is given by the OEM after passing this limit.

For the 744 the LOV is already established at 165.000 hrs and /or 35.000 cycles.(whatever comes first.)
However, the economical lifespan may be lower, because the amount or required structural inspection work during a HMV will increase sharply when the total flight count exceeds 120.000 hours .


AFAIK the high time 747 aircraft at the moment are two ex. KLM freighter aircraft, now retired by Southern Air , both have accumulated approx. 135.000 hrs. (They had already passed the 120.000 hr mark before the new rules were established).

Boeing Group 1 aircraft : Limits of validity
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ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:31 pm

What is the average hourly fuel burn rate for a 744? I want to contemplate the quantity of fuel she has blown out of her tailpipes. I'm assuming the total quantity will be over 250 million gallons over its lifetime.
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edds
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:38 pm

I flew with on of the last ex "Combi" B744 early January FRA-DEN. I wasn't able to catch the registration but one thing I noticed was the (and I have to disagree so some other posts) terrible cabin condition of the aircraft.

The aircraft was however equipped with PTVs but still had the old bulky uncomfortably grey-yellow economy seats. While the PTV was new and more responsive than the PTVs in the updated B744 and B748i, the seats and especially the seat pitch was unacceptable (and I flew on a B757 EWR-STR on UA on the way to Germany). Besides the seat and seat pitch, the cabin lights were flickering, the rear bathrooms where dirty and smelly, the floor was dirty and my seat armrest was broken. I could tell by the passenger's faces and reactions due to the lack of legroom and bad condition of the cabin when entering the plane that most of them weren't happy customers. Furthermore, LH isn't a cheap way to fly either.

I think it is time to retire - old lady! ... at least from a customer perspective.

[Edited 2013-02-07 07:47:00]
 
packsonflight
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:48 pm

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 67):

What is the average hourly fuel burn rate for a 744? I want to contemplate the quantity of fuel she has blown out of her tailpipes. I'm assuming the total quantity will be over 250 million gallons over its lifetime.

10t per hour
 
na
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:04 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 66):

Thanks for this.

Quoting edds (Reply 68):
I flew with on of the last ex "Combi" B744 early January FRA-DEN. I wasn't able to catch the registration but one thing I noticed was the (and I have to disagree so some other posts) terrible cabin condition of the aircraft.

Odd, in all of my flights with LH 744s I have never encountered a single one in less than very good condition, and I have been on about 1/3 of all LH 747s in the past 3 years alone.
I agree with you in respect of the old Eco seats, which indeed were bad. Last year I had a rather uncomfortable flight on one of the older LH A330s and that one was one of the very few LH planes ever on hundreds of flights that were in less than spotless condition.
 
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Loran
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:39 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 66):

Very interesting table. Thanks for sharing. I didn't know that the 744 LOV is in fact 165'000 hours.

Also, it seems the 737-200 may fly more than the quoted threshold. Didn't have the cabrio-732 from Aloha have 88'000 cycles at the time of the accident?

Regards,
Loran
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richierich
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:29 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 27):
I have flown on D-ABTB, D-ABVW, and D-ABVY. It appears from the database that the latter two now have upgraded amenities. The first one, D-ABTA (Brandenburg) was retired in August 2012. The name "Brandenburg" now appears on a new 747-830, D-ABYA.

D-ABTB is/was Brandenburg

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amirs
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:42 pm

Anyone have any info on the El Al 744's?
I bet they should be high, doing TLV-NYC-TLV-LON--BKK-TLV
But they only joined at 1995
 
manny
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:07 pm

I have flown D-ABVC twice. Once in 2002 and once as recently as November 2012. In 2002 i remember it had a beautiful cabin although no IFE. But on the lats flight the cabin looked tired, there were no PTV's and had the old economy seats. The carpets were showing some sign of wear. And on landing in FRA we had fire trucks and emergency vehicles follow us to the gate. There was no issue in deboarding the A/C for all passengers and there was no fire fighting going on. But still wonder why the emergency vehicles were following this aircraft all the way to the gate.

At the end of the day it's great to know this bird is being gracefully retired after such a great service provided over its lifetime.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:03 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 66):
For the 744 the LOV is already established at 165.000 hrs and /or 35.000 cycles.(whatever comes first.)

To supplement what 747classic offered, it's important to note that an airliner's LOV is different from its design service goal (DSG), after which operators have to develop special aging aircraft maintenance programs that will considerably increase maintenance expense. From an economic perspective the DSG is more likely to represent the feasible limit. As an example, the 744 LOV is 35,000 cycles and 165,000 hours, while the 744 DSG is 20,000 cycles and 120,000 hours.
 
falconkutscher
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:08 pm

PH-BUH 21110/271 B472 is stored in KMHV as N748SA (Southern Air Transport) with 130.000 h in the log...
 
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:07 pm

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 29):

3 years back I recall Lufthansa reporting that they had 5 CF6-80 series engines with more than 100.000 hours on wing, and 8 engines with more than 99.000 hours on wing out of total of 120 engines on the 744 fleet.

Do you have a link?

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 48):
Yes, this 130,000 would required a D6 Check (IIRC) and that costs a hell of a lot money and is usually not worth it.

That makes sense. Scrap the plane at the end of the economic life.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 66):
However, the economical lifespan may be lower, because the amount or required structural inspection work during a HMV will increase sharply when the total flight count exceeds 120.000 hours .

Is it 120,000 or 130,000 or will it be 120,000 hours as of July 2013?

Quoting na (Reply 55):
What is that everyone is so obsessed about PTV in Eco?

Because it distracts the idiot next you oneself. Most people no longer consider reading 'doing something' and will interrupt or even worse a large fraction of the population wants me to justify what I'm reading. Now I turn on the PTV, flip on my Kindle, put the earphones in and ignore everyone. Oh, sometimes I have a great conversation. Usually with a 'grey hair,' but my last flight with a lovely bright lady and the flight before that with an amazingly interesting Australian man in the helicopter conversion business.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 66):

New rules for WFD (Widespread Fatigue Damage ) are limiting the flight hours and cycles of all aircraft as of July 2013.

Interesting. Thank you. I believe this is to cut Boeing's liability.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 66):
For the 744 the LOV is already established at 165.000 hrs and /or 35.000 cycles.(whatever comes first.)

So LH is leaving 40k+ hours of life left?!?  
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daviation
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:44 am

Quoting richierich (Reply 72):
D-ABTB is/was Brandenburg

Your are absolutely correct. I made a typo, of course. It was indeed D-ABTB Brandenburg.

When I last flew on D-ABVY, Nordrhein-Westfalen, I actually saw an iceberg in the Atlantic on the daylight route from FRA to EWR. At first I thought it was a ship, but then I used my camera's zoom lens and I snapped a photo of it. Now that's a good reason to look out the window instead of the PTV!
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:23 pm

Quoting FalconKutscher (Reply 76):
PH-BUH 21110/271 B472 is stored in KMHV as N748SA (Southern Air Transport) with 130.000 h in the log...

Here sister-ship , former PH-BUI (21111/274) and retired in December 2009 as N746SA, has accumulated a total of 134.694 hours and 23.911 cycles, very close to the LOV limit of 135.000 hrs for the 747-100/200/300 series.

When PH-BUH left Martinair for Southern Air in Dec 2006 it had already accumulated 127.867 hours and a total of 23.399 cycles.
The last flight as N748SA with Southern Air was SOO9748 at July 13 2011 from JFK to MHV.

Does somebody knows the exact final hour/cycle count of N748SA ? Did she exceed the 135.000 hrs, before this new limit was active ?

[Edited 2013-02-08 05:33:06]
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ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:04 pm

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 69):
10t per hour

Wow. That's over 350 million gallons of fuel consumed over its lifetime. That's impressive.
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factsonly
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:22 pm

Quoting na (Reply 49):
PH-BFA is even older than D-ABVC, its been flying 23 years 9 months and surely must be well over 100.000 as KLM is also known for good utilization. Still KLM holds on to their older 744s, no rumours when the first will leave the fleet. PH-BFA though had her last D-check in early 2007, so the next would be in about a year´s time. I assume thats the day it´ll go into well deserved retirement then.

Just found a surprising piece of information about PH-BFA. Apparently this aircraft returned to AMS as KL812 on 29 January 2013 from yet another D-Check in Kuala Lumpur. So KLM may have extended the life of this early built 1989 B747-400 for another 6 years, taking it to close to 30 years and possible to 135.000 hours or higher.

It seems KLM is heading for another lead in ageing B747s, following on from the two B747-200Combi PH-BUH & PH-BUI that went to Southern Air and reached 135.000 FH.
 
na
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:03 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 82):
Just found a surprising piece of information about PH-BFA. Apparently this aircraft returned to AMS as KL812 on 29 January 2013 from yet another D-Check in Kuala Lumpur. So KLM may have extended the life of this early built 1989 B747-400 for another 6 years, taking it to close to 30 years and possible to 135.000 hours or higher.

It seems KLM is heading for another lead in ageing B747s, following on from the two B747-200Combi PH-BUH & PH-BUI that went to Southern Air and reached 135.000 FH.

Thats indeed a bit surprising and certainly means it´ll fly about 5 years more. By then it should indeed beat LHs record! Assuming KLM utilization is similar to LHs, and that can be expected from all we know it can be assumed its somewhere between 100.-115.000 hours. 5 years more mean about 20.-25.000 hours more, taking it indeed towards 135.000, or even higher.
 
flyingalex
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:37 pm

Quoting BA174 (Reply 25):
G-BNLE has never been stored long term, it even survived the desert in the thick of the credit crunch with much younger examples e.g. G-BNLU heading to the desert for a while. LE is a high J example so many of its missions will be east coast US/middle east and India which might explain why some mid Js which do some of the longer runs to SYD and Africa are ahead hours wise.

Funny you should mention South Africa, because those runs are actually among the worst in terms of aircraft utilisation. One example:

BA57 LHR-JNB 20:45-09:40+1 (10:55 hours block time)

The aircraft then sits at JNB all day, before operating the following flight home:
BA54 JNB-LHR 21:40-06:45+1 (11:05 hours block time)

The aircraft is away from base for 34 hours to achieve 22 hours.



Compare that to, say, a LAX run:

BA269 LHR-LAX 15:00 - 18:05 (11:05 hours block time)

BA268 LAX-LHR 20:40-14:50+1 (10:10 hours block time)

This has the aircraft away from base for about 24 hours, clocking over 21 hours in the process.


In terms of utilisation, Australia's better than South Africa, but not so great either, considering that an aircraft doing LHR-SIN-SYD-SIN-LHR spends 10 hours on the ground in Sydney before starting the journey home again. The aircraft is away from base for 56 hours, and spends about 40 of those in the air. The long ground time at SYD is compensated somewhat by the two quick stopovers in Singapore, but if your goal were to put lots of hours on the frame in the least time, other routes are better. Something that takes an average of 9.5 hours each way, and operates with an immediate turnaround. Something like LHR-DEN or LHR-BOM, for example.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 33):
Apparently the last revenue flight of this a/c was from EWR to FRA. Was this a regular route for this a/c during it's life or where else were it regular routes ?
LH rotate their aircraft all around the network, there are no set routes. That aircraft will have been in EWR countless times, but also in HKG, JFK, GRU, ORD, NRT, BOM, SIN, LAX, PVG, etc. (I realize that many of these are no longer B744 destinations for LH, but they used to be, for many years)

[Edited 2013-02-08 10:41:47]
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar!
 
c5load
Posts: 344
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:07 pm

I've always wondered, what is harder on airframes, the hours spent in the air or cycles? A smaller aircraft like the DC-9 will be retired with thousands of cycles but not many hours all things considered. So is 120,000 hours just as hard and fatiguing on the metal as half the hours but ~80,000 cycles?
"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
 
LH707330
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:25 pm

Quoting c5load (Reply 85):
So is 120,000 hours just as hard and fatiguing on the metal as half the hours but ~80,000 cycles?

Your question is missing the number of cycles for the 120k frame, but if we assume 120k hrs/15k cycles versus 60k/80k, the latter will have more fatigue. You get most of your airframe fatigue from the cabin pressurization.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 6636
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:31 pm

Quoting c5load (Reply 85):
I've always wondered, what is harder on airframes, the hours spent in the air or cycles?

I believe it's the cycles due to pressurization.
 
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135mech
Posts: 411
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:02 pm

Quoting Loran (Reply 58):
Couldn't agree more, my AVOD is the window view. At max I will have the flight info on the screen if available. I actually prefer aircraft without AVOD so that I dont have the annoying IFE box under the seat.

Regards,
Loran

Agreed, I flew (4 times) NW A332's Trans-pac, and while the AVOD was nice, the box under the seat took up so much room that it was uncomfortable to try and stretch out my legs. My "avod" is also the window! LOL

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 77):
Interesting. Thank you. I believe this is to cut Boeing's liability.

Could it also be, to prevent low cost carriers from over-extending their usefulness with out having adequate $$$ to care for the older frames?

Quoting c5load (Reply 85):
I've always wondered, what is harder on airframes, the hours spent in the air or cycles? A smaller aircraft like the DC-9 will be retired with thousands of cycles but not many hours all things considered. So is 120,000 hours just as hard and fatiguing on the metal as half the hours but ~80,000 cycles?

Cycles are usually a lot harder on the frame then the hours. That would be one reason for the 35,000 cycles per lifetime of the 744 on that chart.

Regards,
135Mech
135Mech
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:19 pm

Quoting 135mech (Reply 88):
Quoting c5load (Reply 85):
I've always wondered, what is harder on airframes, the hours spent in the air or cycles? A smaller aircraft like the DC-9 will be retired with thousands of cycles but not many hours all things considered. So is 120,000 hours just as hard and fatiguing on the metal as half the hours but ~80,000 cycles?

Cycles are usually a lot harder on the frame then the hours. That would be one reason for the 35,000 cycles per lifetime of the 744 on that chart.

The 19-year-old Aloha 737-200 that lost much of it's roof on a flight from ITO to HNL in 1988 only had a little over 35,000 hours but almost 90,000 cycles.

 
rwessel
Posts: 2448
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:47 pm

RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:49 am

Quoting c5load (Reply 85):
I've always wondered, what is harder on airframes, the hours spent in the air or cycles? A smaller aircraft like the DC-9 will be retired with thousands of cycles but not many hours all things considered. So is 120,000 hours just as hard and fatiguing on the metal as half the hours but ~80,000 cycles?

That question only really makes sense in the context of the design mission of the aircraft. If someone were to design and build an aircraft to handle 10,000 cycles and 30,000 hours, assuming an average three hour mission, each cycle will take 1/10,000th of the life of the aircraft, and each hour 1/30,000th. If the actual aircraft flies shorter or longer missions, its structure will be unbalanced, being overbuilt in one dimension, and underbuilt in the other.

Boeing *could* build a 747 that would last 100,000 cycles, but it would be far heavier, and in practice the additional structure would be wasted as essentially no aircraft would come anywhere close to that many cycles before running out of hours. IIRC, the 747 domestics have beefed up structure in some critical area to give them a larger practical number of cycles in their many short flights between the Japanese islands (which is an unusual mission for a widebody).
 
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747classic
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:04 am

Quoting rwessel (Reply 90):
IIRC, the 747 domestics have beefed up structure in some critical area to give them a larger practical number of cycles in their many short flights between the Japanese islands (which is an unusual mission for a wide body).

In the 747-SR and 400D aircraft some parts (landing gear, etc.) are beefed up to allow more cycles with less maintenance, however the LOV limit of all 747's is 35.000 cycles.

AFAIK the limiting factor for all 747's is the amount of pressurization cycles at the oval part of the fwd fuselage, caused by the unique 747 upper-deck structure.

In the mid eighties it was discovered that parts of the structure at section 41 developed numerous fatigue cracks, caused by the pressurization cycles. (the pear shaped fuselage wanted to become an apple under pressure).

All 747's had to be inspected at regular intervals and before passing 20.000 cycles the entire structure had to be beefed up (section 41 modification), a very expensive AD.

In later built classics, the 400 and -8 series the relevant structure was beefed up, but is still limiting the number of cycles.

[Edited 2013-02-09 01:08:11]
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 6636
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:38 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 89):
The 19-year-old Aloha 737-200 that lost much of it's roof on a flight from ITO to HNL in 1988 only had a little over 35,000 hours but almost 90,000 cycles.

90,000 cycles, and in a humid and salty environment.
 
na
Topic Author
Posts: 9732
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:57 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 92):
90,000 cycles, and in a humid and salty environment.

That 737 was exactly 19 years old when the accident happened. If it really had done 90.000 cycles, it must have done 13 flights a day, 24/7/365! Is that realistic, even if its just 15-30 minute Island hopping? 90.000 is 15.000 above the design limit.

I know of a South American 737-200 which was taken out of service by the officials not very long ago because it had exceeded the design limit of cycles, not hours.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 91):
In later built classics, the 400 and -8 series the relevant structure was beefed up, but is still limiting the number of cycles.

Have there been any problems with old 744s in that section 41 respect?

To build a large jet as sturdy as a small one it needs an excessively heavy structure, and as big jets usually fly much longer routes thats not necessary. After about two and a half decades technology usually has developed that much further that a plane is obsolete for many purposes after calender years in the first place, not after cycles or flight hours anymore.

There was a huge technological step between the 741/2/3 and the 744, amazing before all is the increased safety of the 744. Look at the safety record of both, they are incomparable.

[Edited 2013-02-09 01:57:41]
 
rwessel
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:55 am

Quoting na (Reply 93):
That 737 was exactly 19 years old when the accident happened. If it really had done 90.000 cycles, it must have done 13 flights a day, 24/7/365! Is that realistic, even if its just 15-30 minute Island hopping? 90.000 is 15.000 above the design limit.

On that route, yes. I did some work there many years ago, and had to commute between islands. It wasn't on a 737 (it was a turboprop I can't now remember), but the airline basically had several aircraft running back and forth along the chain of islands, at least during the busy times. They even sold books of non-dated tickets, you just ripped one out and handed it over when you wanted to go. And turns were probably no more than 20 minutes either.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 6636
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:17 am

Quoting na (Reply 93):
That 737 was exactly 19 years old when the accident happened. If it really had done 90.000 cycles, it must have done 13 flights a day, 24/7/365! Is that realistic, even if its just 15-30 minute Island hopping? 90.000 is 15.000 above the design limit.

Remember, it was Aloha, an island hopping airline. That aircraft was delivered to Aloha in 1969, spent two or so with AirCal hopping around in California (1981-1983) then was back in the Islands for 5,5 more years. Aviation Safety Net reports it had logged: Total airframe hrs: 35496; Cycles: 89680
 
bennett123
Posts: 9209
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:53 pm

I have figures of 140,000 Hours and 23,339 Cycles for N748SA.

However, I do not have a record of the source, (it was probably on this forum).
 
na
Topic Author
Posts: 9732
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:18 pm

Quoting nrt1011 (Reply 18):
I would imagine some of the BA and Qantas 747's would be logging hours such as above.
Quoting na (Reply 19):
BA, yes, probably, KLM also, but QFs 744s are often sitting on the ground for long hours. In FRA

As I suspected, QF makes much less of the dollar with their longhaul planes than LH. According to http://www.aussieairliners.org/b-747/aust747index.html only one of the 744s retired so far by Qantas, VH-OJG, has reached more than 100.000 hours, two or so were even retired with less than 80.000, which is very low for a 747. But some of the early-builts are still flying for QF, I am pretty sure VH-OJA, -OJC and -OJD are beyond 100.000 by now, as they are older than the plane retired with that number. -OJB, the original Wunala Dreaming, was retired with 95.000 hours almost a year ago.
 
Speedbird741
Posts: 404
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:13 pm

RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:37 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 74):
But still wonder why the emergency vehicles were following this aircraft all the way to the gate.

Possibly abnormally hot brakes after landing and deceleration.

Speedbird741
Boa noite Faro, Air Portugal 257 climbing flight level 340
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9602
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RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours

Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:07 pm

Quoting c5load (Reply 85):
I've always wondered, what is harder on airframes, the hours spent in the air or cycles? A smaller aircraft like the DC-9 will be retired with thousands of cycles but not many hours all things considered. So is 120,000 hours just as hard and fatiguing on the metal as half the hours but ~80,000 cycles?

That is a great question. The answer is both, plus another. Cycles, Flight Hours, and Calendar Time all matter. If you are familiar with aircraft maintenance requirement, there are requirements in Flight Hours, Cycles and Calendar time depending on each system.

For example Flight controls equipment is usually based on Flight Hours. The actuation mechanisms, and control systems are almost always analyzed with Flight Hours being the determining factor. Of the 100 or so maintenance requirements within Flight Controls on a 747, almost all are based on Flight Hours. Many of the systems are based on flight hours since they are used continuously during the flight.

For structures it is usually both Cycles and Calendar Time. For aircraft loads it is based on cycles. However corrosion is based on calendar time. Most of the structural maintenance requirements have a limit on number of cycles and calendar time and the airline has to do maintenance according to whatever comes first based on their utilization.

For Landing Gear, for example, everything is based on cycles. Landing gear is only deployed once per flight, so it is based on cycles.

So in total, all three are factors. Airplanes are designed with targets for cycles and hours. The 747 is designed for 100,000 Flight Hours and 20,000 Cycles. That means that the design engineers used that as a lifetime for how long the parts should last. Each airplane has different design targets for its predicted lifetime. It’s ok for the airplane to exceed the lifetime that it was intended for as long as it follows the approved maintenance program, but the numbers are used to determine how strong, stiff, robust, etc each component needs to be. There are elaborate safety assessment documents that have to be approved by the FAA where the manufacturer demonstrates that the airplane does meet its intended lifespan.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!

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