Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:32 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 249):
I would think that DEN is a godfathered route with LGA, but not with DCA.

Good catch, when I was typing that post I used a bad example, and confused LGA/DCA for a moment.

[Edited 2013-02-14 13:36:16]
International Homo of Mystery
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4726
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:54 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 249):
godfathered

Point of note: the correct term is grandfather.  
Quoting ckfred (Reply 235):
I just came across a Reuters report about the possible routes affected by the merger. DOJ would probably want some limits on flights between the former US hubs and current AA hubs, such as LGA-CLT or PHX-DFW.

As was said, typical crappy journalism by people who know nothing about aviation asking people who think they know something but actually know less that the reporter... I think that came out right....

We'll probably see some DCA slots given up, maybe a few LGA but not many.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 242):
I could certainly see PHX being reduced to 1 or 2 and the "extra" slots simply being eliminated until there is another DOT hearing to determine the assignment of those, plus perhaps a few additional ones.

I would think if anything, the LAS slot pair would go.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2778
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:13 pm

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 245):

Are you saying that the largest carrier at a hub, the DC, has some control over that airports costs which can be passed on to other carriers thereby cutting costs to the DCs passengers? Or is it as simple as the DC passing along a volume discount?

No, they do not, although in some cases they can negotiate better gate lease rates, but that really wouldn't be significant.

What I meant is that some routes, namely those connecting through (let's say DFW in this case), will be operated at or below cost, generally to be determined based on competition. The DC in this case, then charges more for O&D flights involving that hub to offset this. They can get away with this as they have a captive market, which they do not have for connecting traffic.

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 245):
I'm in SEA so if I understand your post, this does not apply to me...but how do you do it right on AA?

Right, AFAIK, a flight you book from SEA, connecting through DFW will have a cost based on competition, which very likely would be less per mile (by quite a bit) than a flight on the same airline originating from DFW. Such is the nature of fortress hubs.

I was mainly being tongue in cheek on the last bit. AA is notoriously pricey out of DFW, so to do it "right" would either involve flying someone else, or have your company pay for it,  

There are a few exceptions; notably AA's price-dumping along routes like DFW - LAX whenever someone new enters the market, as VX did not so long ago. But that's really the exception more than anything else...


None of this is a slam on AA in particular; all legacies do this at the fortress hubs, DL & UA are little better (if any) in this way.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
point2point
Posts: 2093
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:01 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 251):
Point of note: the correct term is grandfather.

LOL...... typing out the whole response I only thought of the technical issues of the airports involved..... and not the term itself.......

And you are correct.... it is grandfathered........ using godfathered...... I guess we would expect to see Marlon Brando as Vito Corleone somewhere in the picture, eh?


 
 
Philly65
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:15 pm

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:03 am

I am amazed at the amount of PHL bashing and pontificating as though everyone has some inside knowledge of what changes will occur once the two airlines are integrated. AA and US have both given up on the NYC market long ago; neither one nor both combined are in a position to regain preeminent status in NYC. UA and DL have long secured the top spots in NY and lets not forget B6 building up as the 3rd premier airline in NYC. US has traded a good chunk of their slot portfolio to DL and AA is a mere shadow of it what it once was at all 3 NYC airports. Didn't AA just sublease slots at EWR to VX? I can't tell you how many times I was at JFK and saw the AA terminal as vacant as any lot in Detroit. How can the combined carrier buy back share in NYC? Can someone explain? I am all ears...

Nevertheless, I will chime in as well. There will no doubt be some shifting of routes and frequencies over the long term. PHX will be the immediate loser. How much? We don't know yet. CLT will also see a good % of flights eliminated. Most of that service will shift via DFW or MIA. How big will CLT be? TBD, but it won't be as big as it is today. ORD, not so sure what will become of this hub as well. So much has been eliminated or replaced by RJs let alone WN building up MDW as their largest hub (or one of) which replaced a lot of service that AA once operated. So again, what becomes of ORD? TBD. PHL, yes I will defend it. You might not like the city (nor know a lot about the place) but the airport is not only the best geographically positioned in the Mid-Atlantic. Also the the facility is not that bad either. Better to connect there than any of the NY airports that is for sure. Although DL's investment at JFK is something to watch out for. Yeah, PHL has ATC issues but nothing like the NYC airports. Playing devils advocate here, can you imagine if US shifted all flights to JFK. LOL! What a fuster cluck that would be. JFK will remain a top focus city with minimal int'l service and west coast to keep the loyal customers/corporate accounts happy, but it will not be the mega gateway a few here are suggesting. What routes if any are transferred or added to JFK? TBD.

I copied the above over from the Routes discussion. I also wanted to add PHL is one of the few facilities where you can connect under one roof between multiple carriers without clearing security again and again. That will be a huge appeal to keep the airport as the main hub in the NE USA. In addition the shopping at airport also is tax free for clothing and has very decent food other than normal fast food chains. Hello, Chicky & Pete's!!
 
AAplat4life
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:14 am

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:14 pm

Quoting Philly65 (Reply 254):
I also wanted to add PHL is one of the few facilities where you can connect under one roof between multiple carriers without clearing security again and again.

I'm not sure why that is such an advantage for AA. Other than international flights, that is also true for most of its other hubs.

However, I think PHL will do well along with ORD. I wouldn't be surprised to see 10 to 12 flights a day between the two hubs and more mainline service. If the EU routes are profitable out of PHL, passengers can be funneled from ORD connections where AA's EU routes have been decimated (either due to costs or bad management decisions depending on one's point of view). Conversely, connections from PHL could feed AA routes out of ORD to the west coast and Asia. We might see some slight reductions of PHL flights to some west coast markets that can be connected through ORD, but certainly not eliminations.
 
Philly65
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:15 pm

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:52 pm

Quoting Moderators (Thread starter):
I'm not sure why that is such an advantage for AA. Other than international flights, that is also true for most of its other hubs.

I was referring to connections across carriers (alliance or non-alliance related). And yes,exactly regarding int'l to domestic flights...that is done under one roof, which is a disadvantage for ORD amongst other airports. There may be exceptions (CLT/DFW/IAD) but comparing PHL as a connecting gateway versus BOS/EWR/JFK, PHL is a much better facility to connect thru be it a single carrier, alliance partners or between non-alliance carriers.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14841
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:01 pm

Quoting Philly65 (Reply 256):
There may be exceptions (CLT/DFW/IAD) but comparing PHL as a connecting gateway versus BOS/EWR/JFK, PHL is a much better facility to connect thru be it a single carrier, alliance partners or between non-alliance carriers.

For single carrier connections, what's the difference between PHL and EWR/JFK? In PHL, you take the bus from A to F. In EWR, you take the train from B to C (inbound international) or the bus from A to C. Two of the three single carrier "hubs" at JFK are under one roof.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Philly65
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:15 pm

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:24 pm

Quoting Moderators (Thread starter):
For single carrier connections, what's the difference between PHL and EWR/JFK? In PHL, you take the bus from A to F. In EWR, you take the train from B to C (inbound international) or the bus from A to C. Two of the three single carrier "hubs" at JFK are under one roof.

You can take the bus from A to F but they also have moving sidewalks. Aren't the trains at EWR pre-security? It has been a while since I have connected there. Connections at JFK require terminal changes and reentering security.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14841
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:29 pm

Quoting Philly65 (Reply 258):
You can take the bus from A to F but they also have moving sidewalks.

Sure, but it's a long walk; it's probably longer than C to L at ORD, and no one is arguing that's an easy connection.

Quoting Philly65 (Reply 258):
Aren't the trains at EWR pre-security?

The bus is within security, the train is outside.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Philly65
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:15 pm

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:52 pm

Quoting Moderators (Thread starter):
The bus is within security, the train is outside.

Didn't realize EWR had bus service between terminals A & C but the point I am making is that although the trains are convenient you do have to exit and re-enter security, which is a drag and hassle.

Quoting Moderators (Thread starter):
Sure, but it's a long walk; it's probably longer than C to L at ORD, and no one is arguing that's an easy connection.

Don't forget the moving sidewalks. The bulk of connections made are between terminals A thru D at PHL, which ins't too bad of a walk. In addition, the marketplace offers better food options than quite a few US airports in addition to tax-free shopping on clothes and other items, which is rare in the NE USA.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14841
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:04 pm

Quoting Philly65 (Reply 260):
but the point I am making is that although the trains are convenient you do have to exit and re-enter security, which is a drag and hassle.

The only reason to take the train is if you are arriving on an international flight and outside security anywhere.

My point isn't that PHL is a bad place to connect. It's not, and I'd probably pick it over IAD and DL/JFK. But to pretend that PHL is vastly superior to EWR, AA/JFK or B6/JFK is silly.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Philly65
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:15 pm

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:37 pm

Quoting Moderators (Thread starter):
My point isn't that PHL is a bad place to connect. It's not, and I'd probably pick it over IAD and DL/JFK. But to pretend that PHL is vastly superior to EWR, AA/JFK or B6/JFK is silly.

I didn't say it was superior and not giving that impression, but as you note is not a bad place to connect and it is a better facility than IAD and others. Yes, PHL has its advantages and disadvantages, but I think it is a better connecting hub than many may realize.
 
AAIL86
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:00 am

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:57 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 237):
DFW presents some issues, because of the constraints that WN has at DAL, both in terms of current flying under the Wright Amendment, as well as the hard cap on operations. When the Wright Amendment restrictions disappear, flights to new destinations will mean some cuts in flights to current destinations.

DFW presents no issues that haven't already been hammered out in prior mergers. It was a fortress hub before the merger and will will continue to be one after.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 252):
I was mainly being tongue in cheek on the last bit. AA is notoriously pricey out of DFW, so to do it "right" would either involve flying someone else, or have your company pay for it,

IAH actually has the highest average fares in the country. DFW certainly isn't cheap, but having lived in both cities I find AA from DFW a bargin compared to UA at IAH.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 241):
And you can file that article under the heading "Clueless Journalism".

     
" Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness ... Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. ” - Mark Twain, 1869
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6225
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:25 pm

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 263):
IAH actually has the highest average fares in the country. DFW certainly isn't cheap, but having lived in both cities I find AA from DFW a bargin compared to UA at IAH.

Unless youre flying from DFW to CID.  
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
chexp77w
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:45 am

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:11 am

So is CLT gong to be bigger then ORD? As a Hub. Right now its DFW and ORD in second place. with the merger will it be DFW, CLT & then ORD?
 
Jonathanxxxx
Posts: 345
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:48 pm

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:17 am

Quoting chexp77w (Reply 265):

It depends on your view. I personally believe that CLT will be reduced (Not dehubbed as some say on here) and right-sized to be able to compliment MIA and DFW. I personally see it being around a total amount of flights around 400-450 which is pretty generous. To answer your question, no it will not as AA will probably be expanding at ORD with the addition of E175's and A319's.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26468
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:28 am

[

Quoting chexp77w (Reply 265):

So is CLT gong to be bigger then ORD? As a Hub. Right now its DFW and ORD in second place. with the merger will it be DFW, CLT & then ORD?


Yes, but MIA is AA's second largest hub, not ORD.
a.
 
deltaflyertoo
Posts: 1501
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 3:18 pm

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:26 am

Quoting Philly65 (Reply 254):
AA and US have both given up on the NYC market long ago; neither one nor both combined are in a position to regain preeminent status in NYC. UA and DL have long secured the top spots in NY and lets not forget B6 building up as the 3rd premier airline in NYC.

Agree w/ everything except I argue AA never gave up on NYC. I've seen all the numbers for US hubs and how they pace, but I'd love to see what AA REALLY does at JFK. I suspect they lose there. It will be interesting turning point, w/out JFK but all of PHL I think they'll be just fine in long run-but will the ego of the Hollywood contracts from LA to JFK and whatever random high profile mogul they manage to fly to LHR now and then be worth keeping what they have now at JFK (or as peeps here suggest growing it). It will be interesting to see what Parker really thinks.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26468
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:37 am

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 268):
Agree w/ everything except I argue AA never gave up on NYC. I've seen all the numbers for US hubs and how they pace, but I'd love to see what AA REALLY does at JFK. I suspect they lose there. It will be interesting turning point, w/out JFK but all of PHL I think they'll be just fine in long run-but will the ego of the Hollywood contracts from LA to JFK and whatever random high profile mogul they manage to fly to LHR now and then be worth keeping what they have now at JFK (or as peeps here suggest growing it). It will be interesting to see what Parker really thinks.

AA has the highest average fares of any airline at JFK and second highest proportion of O&D after B6. Those "ego" contracts are exactly what DL has been desperately trying to get - still to little avail (although DL did grab one big customer from AA two weeks ago). I don't think AA is too worried about JFK, especially now that PHL will act as a reliever for feed to markets like ORF that AA can drop.
a.
 
chexp77w
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:45 am

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:07 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 267):

Really I didn't know that I was told ORD was at 500+ flights a day and MIA was around 300+ so my apologies if I was incorrect In this maybe someone might know the numbers to this ?
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26468
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:10 am

Quoting chexp77w (Reply 270):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 267):

Really I didn't know that I was told ORD was at 500+ flights a day and MIA was around 300+ so my apologies if I was incorrect In this maybe someone might know the numbers to this ?


But MIA is mostly mainline jets and ORD largely regional jets, so MIA is a larger operation, with less daily flights.
a.
 
User avatar
SANFan
Posts: 5526
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:10 am

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:16 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 271):
But MIA is mostly mainline jets and ORD largely regional jets, so MIA is a larger operation, with less daily flights.

And how do the hub operations compare as far as number of domestic routes from each? (And intl as well if that data is handy.) I know I've seen the numbers recently but I can't locate them right now.

bb
 
BDL757
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:49 am

AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:33 am

I don't think CLT is going to be as drastically cut as some people say. I think it will get a haircut thought. I see it being like DL's MSP hub: lots of domestic flights and connecting opportunities and a few international flights to partner/joint venture hubs like LHR, MAD, BCN (seasonal), and perhaps something in Germany. I could also see flights to the popular destinations in the Caribbean. It won't be as large as it is now but still big and valuable to the new company.
 
moderators
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:33 am

RE: AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)

Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:01 am

As this thread has become quite long and in some cases difficult to follow, it will now be locked for further contributions. Any posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.

Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 2 which is available here: AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 2)

Enjoy the forums.

The Moderators
Please use [email protected] to contact us.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos