Quoting BW424 (Reply 198): Congrats! Awesome picture as well. Love the lighting! Looking forward to more from you.

Thanks BW424!  

Quoting BW424 (Reply 198):

And the US$38MM loss on the Jamaica routes plays no part in BWs weak position?

Do agree that LGW was a mistake and shouldnt have been attempted when the airloine was distracted by difficulties in absorbing its ATRs, and the former JM routes, and didnt even have trained crews and systems to expedite speedy certification of new planes and other regulatory requirments.

I guess BW can think its lucky stars that the former Chairman was fired or it would have been flying empty planes to Mumbai and Lagos.

[Edited 2013-05-01 11:13:20]

Quoting BW424 (Reply 198): Honestly, the 767s and LGW is the entire reason why BW is so much in debt right now. As the report says, pride and widebody fantasies need to be put aside and business discipline must be of the utmost priority.

Obviously you are referring to the wet-leased 767 operation into LGW. Yes, that was extremely expensive as well as loss of revenue by having their own 767s parked in Mexico.

However, the current 767 operation has settled down into a proper system and is well liked by both the crews and passengers.
3xweekly LGW seems to work fine. As a matter of fact, a recent 902 was so overbooked, some passengers were apparently rerouted via BGI to LGW.
POS-GEO-YYZ will be 2xweekly, and POS-GEO-JFK will be increased to 4xweekly as the demand is very high.

I wouldn't be quick to accept these reports as fact. As you can see, the writer gave the impression that the airline went from CEO Brunton to Chairman Moonan. Two completely different positions and no mention of Nicholas III.

Quoting Inbound (Reply 202):

In fact once DL departs the 4x JFK GEO POS will not be enough. JFK flights seem to be almost 100% sold out in coach Whether the YYZ GEO POS needs to be 2X in nonpeak periods is another story.

Quoting Inbound (Reply 202): Obviously you are referring to the wet-leased 767 operation into LGW. Yes, that was extremely expensive as well as loss of revenue by having their own 767s parked in Mexico.

I'm speaking of the entire scenario of acquiring these 767s. Obviously, if Nicholas didn't have his "bright idea" that CAL should go to London because British Airways runs the route with a 777, things would not be so gloomy financially for the airline. I distinctly remember him being quoted in 2011 @ KIN saying "We will not only be flying small planes now, but big planes..".........really??

This statement insinuates that having widebody aircraft validates the airline as a leading or respected carrier. I guess if I had that warped mentality, airlines like SW, CM, B6 and many others are not "proper airlines" because they don't have "big planes" like BA and the rest. It's statements like these that should trigger one's senses as to the validity of such decisions. No planning whatsoever was or could have been done because the self-appointed airline expert demanded a London route at whatever cost, giving impossible timelines to the media as to when the route will be up, therefore forcing the hand of those in the planning/revenue division to make it happen against the odds.

Quoting Inbound (Reply 202): However, the current 767 operation has settled down into a proper system and is well liked by both the crews and passengers. 3xweekly LGW seems to work fine. As a matter of fact, a recent 902 was so overbooked, some passengers were apparently rerouted via BGI to LGW. POS-GEO-YYZ will be 2xweekly, and POS-GEO-JFK will be increased to 4xweekly as the demand is very high.

Well, I'm glad that the flight crews and the passengers love it; I'm sure if we had a 77W/787/747-8, they'd love it to. Don't get me wrong, I adore most, if not all commercial aircraft; however, if it does not fit into the airline's most viable business model for a specific time period, it should not be there. Overbooked flights also do not mean anything when it comes to what you're really trying to achieve on a route; that being a decent yield. I can only imagine the high break-even load factor the LGW route currently possesses. The cost alone of operating the route is hefty, especially with only 3 weekly flights which means lengthy and costly crew layovers. An operation can generate $100 million in revenue, but if it costs $101 million to do so, it doesn't make good business sense. Numbers can be very deceiving if you don't look at the entire picture and know exactly what you're trying to achieve.

At this point, BW has to make the 767s work because they have no choice but to. I'm glad to hear that the 767 is somewhat settling down, but it will never truly "settle down" as it's an aircraft that arrived too soon IMO. Actually, the resources that were put into the LGW route (including mass wet-leasing) and getting those two 767s up and running shifted BW's focus away from;

1) Financing the ATRs which required a simple consultation with the former Lok Jack board and a "signature".
2) Fully integrating the KIN base and combining FF programs.
3) Growing the POS network/frequencies into North/South America; the same for KIN into Central/North America.
4) Further developing GEO and BGI as focus cities.
5) Refleeting and growing the current 737NG fleet with new narrowbodies to offer an enhanced product and bolster corporate image to consumers and the general corporate environement.
6) Investing in IT infrastructure to more efficiently and effectively conduct all aspects of its operations.
6) Initiating plans to drastically improve physical infrastructure with new facilities which would have housed a potential MRO; an extra source of substantial revenue.

These are just a handful of the major things BW had on its plate to accomplish. IMO, under the former management and board, BW had a lot of growing to do closer to home than advancing across the pond with rushed widebodies. CM or LA and now even AV didnt't become what they are today overnight; it was a measured progression, but with a major strategic vision in mind. That doesn't mean they don't have present challenges as they do have some infrastructural and political pains to deal with, but the astute management and ultimate vision is present at those carriers.

If all of these initiatives were implemented at BW, it augurs well for it's employees in terms of promotions and job security and for society/economics in general with robust job creation.

Inbound, I'm sure you've gotten a taste of it under the former management at CAL. Fast upgrades and steady hiring during the 2008-2010 period. There was a point in late 2009/early 2010 that the airline had to put aside it's plans to take on an additional 738 because there was a lack of trained crew at the time.

Quoting Inbound (Reply 202): I wouldn't be quick to accept these reports as fact. As you can see, the writer gave the impression that the airline went from CEO Brunton to Chairman Moonan. Two completely different positions and no mention of Nicholas III.

CAPA is world renowned for their expert and bipartisan analysis on carriers. A mistake such as Nicholas not being mentioned is somewhat regrettable, but the article has its facts, analysis and it's opinion on the carrier's present situation and what should be done to curb it's fall dead on centre line. What the article looks at are the slew of poor decisions that has persisted since the exit of the former board and management team. This is what really is important. Unlike a lot of local pundits we have in the Caribbean that miss the tiny details and critical time periods when they write their "expert" take on what is happening at BW, this report has to be by far the best one, especially seeing that it's a complete external entity with no gripe nor favour towards the carrier.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 201): And the US$38MM loss on the Jamaica routes plays no part in BWs weak position?

Yes, those losses do account for BW's current position. It is in black and white to see, however, I do maintain that it was self-inflicted because of woefully misguided intentions and decisions by political appointees. Instead of focusing resources on getting KIN properly integrated and really competing to maintain and grow market share, efforts were directly elsewhere.

This is why it is really angering to see these present individuals at the carrier sitting in the boardroom deciding to blame CAL's position on KIN and the ATRs..........such such poor character on their part, but, that's politics. The CAPA article is as clean cut as you can get and really identifies the true problem.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 197): Hi guys Just wanted to let you know that ive finally gotten one of my photos accepted here in the database: View Large View Medium Photo © Yvan Greenaway Took a long while, but I finally got there . I thank A388 especially for his editing tips along the way. Here's to many more

Great photo Yvan!!! I'm glad to help you. You live close to a very nice airport with lots of movements (MAN) so I'm looking forward to more photos being added 

A388

Quoting BW424 (Reply 204): This statement insinuates that having widebody aircraft validates the airline as a leading or respected carrier. I guess if I had that warped mentality, airlines like SW, CM, B6 and many others are not "proper airlines" because they don't have "big planes" like BA and the rest.

Yes, an airline doesn't need wide-bodies to be considered leading or respected carrier.
But since CM was mentioned, CM is crying for a larger B737 to be used on certain frequency restricted routes. It'd come as no surprise if CM changes one or two of its already ordered B737-800 to B737-900ER.

Quoting BW424 (Reply 204): 3) Growing the POS network/frequencies into North/South America; the same for KIN into Central/North America.

Careful which South / Central American destinations are on BW wish list.
And about that subject, I'd guess a more noticeable and strong presence in CCS, perhaps opening PZO (schedules aimed for MIA traffic) and twice weekly KIN-BZE may seem logical at the moment.

Quoting BW424 (Reply 204):

You make good points here but I would argue that BWs KIN base also distracted from its acheiving the goals that you describe.

This was a risky venture, given the history of Jamaican attitudes towards the Eastern Caribbean, their antipathy towards what they consider to be a TRinidadian take over of much of Jamaica, claims by Jcan manufacturers that Trini and Bajan govts were discriminating against them, and well publicized claims that Jcans visiting ANU and BGI and POS were being shabbily treated by immigration authorities, and even by the public at large. No matter how well run a company might be if the customers do not want it failure is certain, and it was always a high risk that Jamaicans were notwilling to accep BRAND JAMAICA, being collapsed into BRAND CARIBBEAN.

BW initially put in a bid, and I believe were rejected. When Jca came calling again , after the IMF insisted that JM be closed, and when all potential buyers had lost interest in JM, T&T should have stayed away.

So what do we have here. FlyJamaica enjoying full support of the Jcan govt while it aims to replace JM as "that little piece of Jamaica which flies". Those VFR travelers who are less caught up in national excitement will most likely use the foreign brands like B6 and WS and AC.So FJ will get most of their passengers from BW.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 206):

Absolutely no way that there will be any expansion from KIN at a time when its not know if BW even plans to keep that base open. However people manage to travel to BZE they will continue to use those routes.The most efficient way to travel from the E/Caribbean to South/Central America will remain CM via PTY due to low volumes. Maybe Brazil might emerge as a market meriting direct service, but I suspect a Brazilian carrier, rather than BW will be best. I see Venezuelan cities near to POS as being BWs best opportunity to expand its Latin American routes.

Quoting BW424 (Reply 204): 3) Growing the POS network/frequencies into North/South America; the same for KIN into Central/North America.

BW could learn alot by looking at what TA did with SAL and LIM hubs....each complementing each other and serving different markets. The same could be done with KIN and POS hubs.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 207): The most efficient way to travel from the E/Caribbean to South/Central America will remain CM via PTY due to low volumes.

Only serving SXM and POS makes that very difficult. often times it is still easier to go via MIA.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 208): Only serving SXM and POS makes that very difficult. often times it is still easier to go via MIA.

You do know Copa also serves AUA, CUR, NAS, SJU, SDQ, HAV, MBJ, KIN, PAP and ADZ in the Caribbean(?) Even so I do agree with you that it is much more convenient to travel via MIA on AA as their connecting possibilities to South America from MIA are just that big (even though immigration can be time consuming).

A388

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 208):

The horse has already galloped out of the barn when it comes to Jamaica. They have already decided that they dont like BW, FlyJam is there for those who insist on a Jcan airline and now there is AC,WS,B6 and NK in addition to AA into IN.

I really do not know what they can do at this point, because the time of passing themselves off as a "Jamaican" airline has long gone.

Actually it is not difficult to get to POS using a BW/LI combination, and from there to PTY. Especially now that CM is virtually 2X daily.

Quoting A388 (Reply 209):

MIA will always be more popular, but with US visas becoming harder to get and more expensive PTY becomes relevant.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 210): MIA will always be more popular, but with US visas becoming harder to get and more expensive PTY becomes relevant.

That's true but as you said the number of flights AA offers from MIA to North America makes CM from PTY practically non existant. So yes, CM and their PTY hub indeed are relevant but up to a certain level and AA still wins that battle by far.

A388

Quoting guyanam (Reply 210): Especially now that CM is virtually 2X daily.

That would mean we'd now probably see passengers flying between POS and KIN/MBJ/NAS (maybe PAP too) via PTY.
As for passengers between POS and CUR/AUA/SXM via PTY I've my doubts if any around but hardcore MileagePlus members may want to use their rewards flying via PTY.

PTY-POS is almost twice daily, but I keep repeating, regardless of CM @ POS there's still a market for twice weekly PTY-GEO, PTY-PBM and PTY-BGI.

As I mentioned before and continually keep saying, CAL's Jamaica operations is not the problem as loads have always been decent enough to make money on the increase operations. If Lok Jack was there none of the current situation at CAL would have taken place because the board was very astute, strategic and well focused on how to make money. This current board however, is very clueless as seen by the Chairman's interview recently even about business management.

Now two CAL senior managers left the airline, one passed on and their is now infighting in the airline's management team. Reckless hiring of people, none case business strategies and high levels of corruption are now coming to light in the public that has been known internally for the past 2 years.



Lok Jack, Davies and Brunton would have never allowed this to happen and it is very clear now that this board needs to take a hike. They also need to replace the new CFO in the airline pronto also.

Quote: Mismanagement, in-fighting among bosses and freeloading continue at State-owned CAL which is over one billion in debt. Insiders tell TNT Mirror that CAL executives are allegedly frustrated with the board, “who continue to abuse the airline and provide no substantial guidance on a way forward. “ There are also allegations of in-fighting among the executive team, as some of them feel that enough is enough with the shenanigans of the Government and the board. However, politically aligned factions on the management team thwart the efforts of the fed-up minority. There are several instances of news reaching the Minister and the Chairman before the acting CEO is even aware. ” Some staff have taken to calling the Acting CEO “Alice in Wonderland”, the source stated. Also, a politically appointed human resource official is allegedly one of the major “traitors on board” and the individual keenly keeps the political directorate of the PP, well informed about CAL’s affairs. Since the Mirror first broke the story on CAL’s financial woes weeks ago, the laggard daily press have jumped on the story like hot bread. However, the Mirror continues to be the first with breaking news. Information reaching the Mirror points to continued abuse of travel privileges by senior officials at CAL. Specifically, a senior official and his family -wife, children and grandchildren-continue to use the carrier like a private jet.

http://tntmirror.com/tnt-new3/?p=3053

[Edited 2013-05-07 20:11:17]

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 212):

NAS definitely and BZE if CM starts service. Dont see KIN (BW) or SXM (BW/LI) as competing service already exists. Also dont see CUR/AUA with PY/LI to CUR and easy connections to AUA.

Both BGI and GEO are talking to CM so we will see. The Guyana govt is attempting to build a huge airport, well beyond what the existing market requires. They have some notion that GEO can be developed into some hub, and they hope to attract new carriers, CM among them. Personally I think they will have more luck trying to transport people to the moon as the Guyanas have small populations and the Amazon is thinly populated, and I do not see any where else being conveninet to hub thru GEO. I am skeptical that even POS can evolve into a major hub.

BTW there was a good article on Panama City in last Sundays New York Times Travel Section. With your 15,000 hotel rooms and huge surge in viistors I can see why CM has been successful in building both O&D and intransit traffic through PTY.

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 213):

I really see no proof that Lok Jack would have been any more successful with KIN.

The Trini flavor which BW projects just doesnt sell to Jamaicans. Guyanese, Bajans and Grenadians might be receptive to it, given their high exposure to T&T. Not so for Jamaicans who have their own very powerful sense of who they are. The absorption of these routes began under the Lok Jock.Brunton administration and most assuredly the "on the way to one brand" marketing by this team didnt excite Jamaicans.

I do not think that you know the Jamaican mentality. Let me clue you about it. The fact that we have TWO threads, Jamaica and the rest of the Caribbean, should indicate something. Note that this occurs despite the fact that the type of Jamaicans who posts are more intellectually capable of understanding that Jamaica might benefit from pooling its resources within a larger Caribbean context.

Your average Jamaican VFR traveler doesnt understand this, nor do they care. So telling them that "Air Jamaica is on the way to become some Caribbean something" only indicates that "dem Trini come tek way every ting". Trinidad being some island far over the horizon, much further than Florida and so even more alien. From the time that the announcement was made that JM would be no more there were loud screams of "me nah fly no Trini ting". Never heard any thing that Lok Jack/Brunton planned to do to deal with those sentiments.



If none other than the PM of Jamaica is cheering on Fly Jamaica with the cry that "once again we have OUR own airline", then really whats the point. Note also that she heads a PNP govt, which has always been more CARICOM sensitive than the JLP who shut down JM. Goulding, the then PM, pulled a fast trick on T&T to save the JLP the embarrassment of being forced to do this by the IMF. He did not have an alternative other than wooing T&T to be suckered into that trap. This because every one else who was initailly interested. ran off howling once they saw the mess of JM.


Jamaicans do not see BW as a national carrier, and given the massive interest in KIN/MBJ by foreign carriers, do not even see it as necessary to ensure airlift. True many Jcans will not trust FJ, so they will fly B6 and the others. B6 flies almost 100% full out of FLL while BW is less than 50% occupied.

The Jcans do not want BW. The Jcan govt will not subsidize it. The Jcan govt is demanding that BW pays them what they owe for landing fees, etc. So why keep the KIN base?

Indeed it might be that the BW experiment served its purpose, by allowing JM to be shut down. Now that a new Jcan carrier has emerged then some might wonder why should a FOREIGN airline have the right to use a JAMAICAN brand.

JFK to POS/GEO fully booked, and its not even summer. Surely BW will do more than to re-introduce its 424/425 service when loads really spike. Hopefully this is because they are waiting to see what PY and FJ are up to in terms of JFK GEO service.So do not want to rsik over supply.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 215): JFK to POS/GEO fully booked, and its not even summer.

Where is a DL flight when you need it   

Unfair competition: LIAT denounces Caribbean Airlines subsidy


St. John’s Antigua- LIAT has agreed to challenge the Trinidad & Tobago government for providing “unfair” subsidies to Caribbean Airlines while at the same time pushing for closer linkages with the Port of Spain-owned and operated entity.
LIAT has gone as far as to formulate a legal opinion that Chairman of the LIAT Shareholder governments, St Vincent & the Grenadines Prime Minister Dr Ralph Gonsalves said would be presented to Prime Minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar.
“We will make available also the facts concerning the extent to which LIAT has been disadvantaged as a result of the unfair competition,” Gonsalves told a post-meeting news conference.
He argued that CAL pays US $50 for a barrel of aviation fuel while LIAT forks-up roughly US $120 for the same.
Terming the figures as a “big problem,” Gonsalves added that the “discrepancy was creating challenges for us.”
The subsidy to CAL is expected to be discussed at the political level later this month when Dr Gonsalves meets with his counterpart, Bissessar, in Port of Spain.
The meeting decided that Dr Gonsalves would be the only prime minister going to Trinidad & Tobago.
According to LIAT data presented at the gathering, between 2008 to 2012, LIAT spent US $106.1 million on fuel while CAL for the same period, spent US $46.4 million.
The average cost over that period for LIAT was about US $127 a barrel as compared with US $53 for CAL.
LIAT pointed out that it lost 78,000 passengers as a result of the subsidies provided to its competitor.
“The revenues we would have lost as a result of that unfair competition would be US $10.2 million,” Dr Gonsalves said.
Despite denouncing the Trinidad & Tobago subsidy, LIAT Chairman Dr Jean Holder doesn’t see the disagreement affecting LIAT’s ability to negotiate closer relations with CAL.
“The fuel subsidy doesn’t appear to be doing a great deal to help CAL but it can do a great deal to help LIAT,” he said, adding that LIAT is not placing preconditions on the Trinidad national carrier.
He said the talks toward closer cooperation did not come from LIAT “but from the people of the Caribbean.”
“They say why don’t you fellas get your act together. It is something that the region is saying,” he added.
Dr Holder said the airlines that have survived around the world are those which have formed alliances with others.
But on the question of a full-blown merger, the St Vincent and the Grenadines Prime Minister Dr Ralph Gonsalves said, “we have to date a little first before we can get married.”

http://www.antiguaobserver.com/unfai...ounces-caribbean-airlines-subsidy/

Quoting guyanam (Reply 214): Both BGI and GEO are talking to CM so we will see.

Given the amount of time BZE has invested in talking to CM, while I'd like to see CM to BZE, BGI and GEO within one year, I'm very sceptical that might happen that soon.

Quote: The Guyana govt is attempting to build a huge airport, well beyond what the existing market requires. They have some notion that GEO can be developed into some hub, and they hope to attract new carriers, CM among them... I am skeptical that even POS can evolve into a major hub.

GEO doesn't even have an airline of its own, so chances of becoming a hub, even a regional one are to say negligible.
But CM may fly to GEO someday, as there's a market for GEO-PTY (O/D+hub).
POS - IMHO - does have a greater chance for a regional hub but BW still has to work out its apprehension of having to depend on huge numbers of Spanish and Portuguese speaking passengers thru POS in order to support a hub operation as PBM, GEO, GND, UVF and BGI passenger traffic isn't enough for a sizeable regional hub,

Quote: BTW there was a good article on Panama City in last Sundays New York Times Travel Section. With your 15,000 hotel rooms and huge surge in visitors I can see why CM has been successful in building both O&D and intransit traffic through PTY.

By now, the occupancy of those Panama city 15,000 hotel rooms leaves a lot to be desire.
However, it's a relief for CM that in the event of flight cancellations or delays @ PTY CM doesn't have to worry where to accommodate its passengers.    Also it makes PTY an attractive airport to divert when SJO, MDE or BOG are closed.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 218): Given the amount of time BZE has invested in talking to CM,

That is very right....I believe they have been at it for a few years. On the other hand, BGI and GEO do have one thing going for them that BZE doesn't. a very critical thing.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 218): Quote: The Guyana govt is attempting to build a huge airport, well beyond what the existing market requires. They have some notion that GEO can be developed into some hub, and they hope to attract new carriers, CM among them... I am skeptical that even POS can evolve into a major hub. GEO doesn't even have an airline of its own, so chances of becoming a hub, even a regional one are to say negligible. But CM may fly to GEO someday, as there's a market for GEO-PTY (O/D+hub). POS - IMHO - does have a greater chance for a regional hub but BW still has to work out its apprehension of having to depend on huge numbers of Spanish and Portuguese speaking passengers thru POS in order to support a hub operation as PBM, GEO, GND, UVF and BGI passenger traffic isn't enough for a sizeable regional hub,

I had a look at the model airport at GEO's terminal a few days ago and it's not that huge. They only have 7 "fingers" planned and to think they only have 4 existing gates right now, it's not too much expansion.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 216):

DL wants to rape a poor nation which cannot afford to pay them subsidies on a route where they have almost 90% loads. Do you not think that this is expoitation when DL makes this demand from the POOREST nation in the Englsih speaking Caribbean when the route is PROFITABLE? I mean its not as if any one is asking them to fly a speculative route like ATL GEO.

DL made their decision and there is nothing that Guyana can do about it. And please do not mention fuel subsidy as DL quite happily competes with BW on JFK MBJ, which is a lower yielding route than is JFK GEO, now that EZjet is gone. DL made their decision and some say that it is more to do with overall corruption in Guyana which means that there are scant controls against drug trafficking.

Guyanese are the third largest Caribbean group in the NY, behind Dominicans and Jamaicans. The vast majority of the 100k+ people traveling between the USA and GEO are traveling into JFK.

Honestly there are routes and destinations which merit a subsidy because the market is small and speculative. GEO JFK is NOT one of them.

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 217):

People need to stop being dishonest. BW competes against LI on the POS SLU and the POS GND routes only. BGI POS was always a BW route, and was also a BA route when they served POS via BGI out of LHR.

LI has a virtual monopoly elsewhere, especially since BW reduced service into ANU. This opens up ample space for LI for possengers traveling from BGI and POS. As does the demise of Eagle.

So why is the fuel subsidy made to be an excuse for LIs failures? Why dont folks be honest. They want T&T to subsidize LI instead, and rather than being honest about it they make up this rant. Even if BW discontinues its service to SLU LI will still have problems.

T&T has no need for LI. If LI collapses then BW adds POS SVD. The other LI routes are of no benefit to T&T.

For those who think that BW is unnecessary (the SVG PM being one of them, though he will beg BW when majors demand millions to service the new airport). Just look at GND in nonpeak periods and GEO year round. Major carriers fly routes that benefit theur macro goals. They squeeze subsidies when they can out of small and vulnerable nations. For destinations which do not have large leisure traffic BW is of vital importance. Ralph Gonsales will quickly find Kamla's address when B6/DL/AA tell him millions in escrow for guarantees or no service.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 218):

Why will Spanish and Portuguese people travel through POS, a hub that cannot even properly service its GEO passengers? POS is not designed to be a hub for intransits and that has NOTHING to do with BW. In any case the failure of SJU as a hub should be a lesson to all those who think that intransits alone will support a route. PTY works because it has emerged as the alternative to MIA for commerce. POS is no where near that.

BW needs to focus on its core O&D markets until its financial situation improves. Speculating that Latins MIGHT use POS, when they are quite familiar with PTY and MIA, is pure folly, and even worse than its LGW route.

Quoting Inbound (Reply 220):

It costs US$150 million. Quite a lot for a poor nation and these funds should instead be spent on improving travel in the interior to reduce the costs for eco tourists, and then promoting the nation to those markets. Guyana is acountry with no roads outside of the coast,k and yet domestic air service is very scanty. Yes GEO needs expansion but not at US$150 million. Why 7 gates for 3 BW flights arriving simultaneously?

If flights from POS to Africa and Asia are being laughed at then what do you call similar flights from GEO?

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 219):

Whats that? BZE is way more integrated into Latin America than GEO and BGI will ever be. The only tourist market I can see working into BGI is from Brazil and Argentina. GOL is struggling on that route.

PTY GEO passengers can easily fly CM to POS and then BW to GEO. In fact I will argue that BW is missing an opportunity to have some sort of functional cooperation with CM to integrate the E/Caribbean with Latin Am via hubs at POS and PTY. This will provide an alternative to MIA at a time when US visas are hard to get, but the volumes are not sufficient for BW to attempt this.

Given the low salaries earned by even middle class Guyanese I do not see them traveling in large numbers to Latin Am to merit stand alone service. Clearly GEO will not be a destination for Latin travelers.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 221): POS is not designed to be a hub for intransits and that has NOTHING to do with BW.

I've not been to POS, so I ask, when international passengers come out of the jetways, do they go to the same are where the departing passengers are waiting or they're immediately directed to POS immigration and customs areas?

Quote: In any case the failure of SJU as a hub should be a lesson to all those who think that intransits alone will support a route.

IMHO, U.S. visa requirements for international-international transits kill AA SJU hub and AA SJU Caribbean routes. But SJU-CCS wasn't stopped because of that same reason.

Quote: The only tourist market I can see working into BGI is from Brazil and Argentina. GOL is struggling on that route.

The day CM makes it to BGI (if it happens) G3 may very likely stop its BGI flight.

Quote: Given the low salaries earned by even middle class Guyanese I do not see them traveling in large numbers to Latin Am to merit stand alone service.

Even Haïtians do travel to Panama for shopping and they'd travel more if Panama wasn't that tough granting them visitor visas. Numbers may not be huge, but some Guyanese may travel to PTY attracted by shopping and Colon Duty Free Zone, specially if they won't need to connect @ POS because a CM non-stop. GEO is also a frequent destination for Colon Duty Free Zone salespersons - quite important CM local PTY O/D market - and I bet they're also lobbying CM for a non-stop to GEO (and PBM, BGI too).

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 222): I've not been to POS, so I ask, when international passengers come out of the jetways, do they go to the same are where the departing passengers are waiting or they're immediately directed to POS immigration and customs areas?

I deplaned twice there, once I had to go through customs, as I was arriving in the country the second time we used the tarmac and deplaned directly to the hall, I saw they have second lay of xrays before the waiting area, so I believe the re-scann everyone in transit, CUR does it too! but someone here said the guyanese arriving had to use a sort of elevator to avoid customs....

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 222): The day CM makes it to BGI (if it happens) G3 may very likely stop its BGI flight.

I HONESTLY never understood G3!!!! SXM was working for them, nearly EVERYONE in brazil knows or heard of Saint Martin! then they say they'd return their 767's and decided to drop some caribbean islands, PS- they used to fly 737 to SXM, my mom took this flight and it was packed!

Now if you ask about BGI, people will be: where the hell is this? maybe they only market it to GRU, because never heard of this destination in northern brazil.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 222): quite important CM local PTY O/D market - and I bet they're also lobbying CM for a non-stop to GEO (and PBM, BGI too).

on the day CM starts these routes, it will be twice a week with Embraers FOR SURE.

cheers from SEA

PS- If you ever considered flying WN, think twice, just had an horrible whole experience with them.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 222): I've not been to POS, so I ask, when international passengers come out of the jetways, do they go to the same are where the departing passengers are waiting or they're immediately directed to POS immigration and customs areas?

No, when passengers deplane via the jetways they descend stairs to the Immigration and Customs areas which are on the ground floor. The departures level is on the upper floor. Passengers transiting are diverted from the Immigration area and make their way back to departures. As such it is designed for transiting and connections.

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 223): I saw they have second lay of xrays before the waiting area, so I believe the re-scann everyone in transit, CUR does it too!

I have not transited as such through POS but isn't such rescanning practised everywhere these days?

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 222): But SJU-CCS wasn't stopped because of that same reason.

SJU - CCS was not stopped because AA cannot increase frequencies into Venezuela and so they hold on tenaciously to what they currently have.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 221): So why is the fuel subsidy made to be an excuse for LIs failures? Why dont folks be honest. They want T&T to subsidize LI instead, and rather than being honest about it they make up this rant. Even if BW discontinues its service to SLU LI will still have problems.

Once again LI rant about BW's fuel subsidy. I've got to agree with you Guyanam, why do they keep hitting on this issue? To be honest LI's travails are very unfortunate and I do not like to see any Caribbean airline suffering like they are but LI face a number of problems, many of which are beyond their control.

Let's take a different approach to the current LI situation. LI serve inter-island routes, on many of which they are the sole service. The inter-island markets regionally have comprised a mixture of VFR passengers, business visitors and regional tourists (with T&T and Barbados being major origins and virtually all the islands being destinations). In the 1990s a new, sizeable passenger stream emerged as overseas visitors to one island took side trips to others - and LI benefited from this by and large. I recall visitng BGI in 1998 and seeing travel agents displaying posters and placing adverts offering trips to SLU, DOM, SVD, GND and TAB - all then served by LI from there - and the Grenadines, often by boat trips. In like fashion, in TAB trips to BGI and GND were offered. To add to all of this, LI have long fed passengers into their BGI and ANU hubs to connect with flights overseas.

From the 1990s, let's come to 2013. The global economy has slowed drastically and this has meant many people have less money to travel. Regionally, this means that local-origin inter-island travel has shrivelled up considerably. The business people are still travelling as the economies of the region are becoming increasingly linked - but the volumes in the Caribbean are nowhere near those in places like North America or Europe or even from the Caribbean region to MIA. Tourism has dropped cataclysmically in many islands and the people who visit are far more budget-conscious than ever. As a result, the side-trip visits have declined as many more people go for all-inclusive holidays where their hotel(s) form the entirety of thir vacations. Those people who would rather island-hop are largely turning to cruises to do so.

When one considers LI feeding ANU and BGI long-haul services with their regional flights, I would suggest that they remain more relevant in ANU where many of the neighbouring Leeward Islands have few or no international services. To add to the overall picture, the Leewards appear to be more highly interdependent than the Windwards, which are more self-contained entities. BGI's neighbours for the most part have long-haul services of their own and thus there is little need to connect via BGI anymore. The main exception is SVD and guess who is a major LI shareholder?

Now all of these developments have affected LI - but nobody seems to mention any of this. Another possible factor is that recently POS has grown as a connection hub, particularly because the large local market and the business economy have led to the growth of a wide range of air services (think CM, PY, UA and others) which are not replicated elsewhere. For this and other reasons POS has stolen some of BGI's thunder as a hub. That BW have benefited in developing their regional network is certainly true but then LI have a POS hub too! BW though can offer same-airline connections and through checking-in, even if originating in TAB and continuing elsewhere one can check-in there for the final destination.

So LI's problems are multi-faceted and not really addressed by hankering away at BW and fuel subsidies.

Trintocan.

Quoting trintocan (Reply 224): I have not transited as such through POS but isn't such rescanning practised everywhere these days?

in PTY they NEVER re-scan, only if you clear customs and decide to return! but there are special checks for the USA bound flights, don't even need to mention.... LOL.

Quoting trintocan (Reply 224): let's come to 2013. The global economy has slowed drastically and this has meant many people have less money to travel.

and also because life is getting very expensive today! I'm now in SEA visiting! (not going to visit Boeings factory because they don't let us take pics or record or whatever so i will feel fooled) and here you can buy a iphone for 199 usd, backhome it will cost you at least 1 thousand usd, 4 tomatoes 5 usd, trolley car for you baby 300 usd and so on, so even middle class will have hard time to travel abroad etc... crises just makes it worse for people who had cuts etc... and caribbean is EXPENSIVE.

Quoting trintocan (Reply 224): SJU - CCS was not stopped because AA cannot increase frequencies into Venezuela and so they hold on tenaciously to what they currently have.

Yes, I also wasn't aware that the SJU-CCS flight was stopped as it is a very lucrative flight for AA!!!

A388

Quoting guyanam (Reply 221): DL wants to rape a poor nation which cannot afford to pay them subsidies on a route where they have almost 90% loads.

And BW is doing what? I would argue the very same thing!

Quoting A388 (Reply 226): Yes, I also wasn't aware that the SJU-CCS flight was stopped as it is a very lucrative flight for AA!!!

I wan't either. I thought AA would hang on to this tooth and nail simply because of the CCS rights which are almost harder to get than LAD.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 227): I thought AA would hang on to this tooth and nail simply because of the CCS rights which are almost harder to get than LAD.

Very foolish from AA part to stop SJU-CCS. There is an interesting CCS-SJU O/D traffic which could alone have supported the daily flight, albeit maybe w/smaller aircraft.

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 225): in PTY they NEVER re-scan, only if you clear customs and decide to return! but there are special checks for the USA bound flights, don't even need to mention....

I believe there're special checks for Europe- and Canada-bound flights too.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 222):

Guyanese have complained on numerous occasions that when they disembark they are directed to an elevator, not an escalater, and that there are often no airport or airline personnel to direct people. When they are they, they are often surly. .

What ends up happening is about 60-100 passengers, loaded with kids and carry-ons, must wait several trips, as the elevator can only accommodate a few. This is not what people who are intransit expect. In addition (and this might be beyond the control of POS authorities) passengers who buy duty free at their point of origin have it seized at POS if they are intransit, as the arrangements arent "secure"?

The govt of Guyana has approached CM, and so they are fully aware as to whether GEO represents market potential for them. I do not see how an E190 can be used if most of the passengers are informal traders who usually travel loaded with bags. Further Guyanese are insulated from Latin America (lacking the historic ties that Jcans, Bajans and Trinis have,and not even using SJU), so I remain skeptical that any but the nmost sophisticated will travel to a distant and foreign speaking country to shop.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 227):

PLEASE ITEMIZE EXACTLY HOW CAL IS EXTORTING FUNDS FROM Guyana. Indeed I will argue that Guyana is getting a free ride as it gets the benefit of a national carrier without putting in one penny, and certainly not the variety of financial supports that T&T offers.

DL made their decsion for reasons that suit DL. The excuse of the TRINIDAD (not Guyana) fuel subsidy has NOTHING to do with this as DL recently expanded its JFK MBJ where they compete against BW.

I need to ask you a question. What do you think that Guyana is NOT offering DL that its offering BW. If the fuel subsidy is such a major problem why does AA undercut BW on the JFK POS, for people willing to travel via MIA? Also AA is almost always cheaper on the MIA POS than BW is. Ditto WS which way undercuts BW on its YYZ KIN and YYZ POS runs.

Quoting trintocan (Reply 224):

These are LIs problems.

1. regional govts have raised taxes to astronomical levels, indeed making themselves look like hypcrites as they criticize the UKs APD. A fare ANU SKB ANU (52 miles) is almost Us$300, of which 40% of the fare are govt taxes. There was a time when people from nearby islands used to visit each other at a whim, as in a big party in SKB so scores of Antiguans fly over. Fares used to be US$100. And the only taxes were the then low departures taxes, usually less than US$15 for CARICOM residents.

2. LI does not integrate its fares with international carriers so they have lost most of their international feed, except to DOM and SVD where there are no alternatives.

3. Islands like SLU, SKB and GND have vastly improved international connections so no longer need the LI feed to nearby hubs. NEV is accessed via ferry from SKB, even on flights from LGW. And AXA is now accessed via SXM, except for flights from LGW. The only islands which depend heavily on ANU for US/Canada traffic are DOM, and MNI, both very small markets. Indeed BA has cut out LI by running its 2X LGW ANU SKB, when previously they would have used LI for the sector into SKB/NEV. One can only wonder what will happen if and when SVD finishes its international airport.

4. I can well imagine that weak economies and improved IT has reduced the need for intra regional businss travel, this being a bread and butter for LI in soft periods.


It is clear to me that the screams about T&T are based, not on a notion that the fuel subsidy hurts LI, it does not as the two compate on only TWO routes. Its because they want T&T to offer the same subsidy to LI.

What is indeed noticeable is that regional govts refuse to address the issue of high taxes and how they have seriously hurt intra regional travel. First they blamed LI, which showed them the taxes. Now they blame T&T for not subsidizing LI, even though they do not put it that way.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 228): Very foolish from AA part to stop SJU-CCS.

Again AA didn't stop the SJU-CCS flights.

A388

Quoting A388 (Reply 230): Again AA didn't stop the SJU-CCS flights.

They're planning to do so.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 229): What ends up happening is about 60-100 passengers, loaded with kids and carry-ons, must wait several trips, as the elevator can only accommodate a few. This is not what people who are intransit expect. In addition (and this might be beyond the control of POS authorities) passengers who buy duty free at their point of origin have it seized at POS if they are intransit, as the arrangements arent "secure"?

thank for explaining, I knew it was going on, but didn't know how.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 231): Quoting A388 (Reply 230): Again AA didn't stop the SJU-CCS flights. They're planning to do so.

Do you have a source on this? What is the reason they want to stop this route?

A388

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/...011.html?m=y&smobile=y&clmob=y&c=n

CAL BOARD AXED!

Here we go again  

Think they'll get it right this time?

Taking bets......

Quoting guyanam (Reply 229): PLEASE ITEMIZE EXACTLY HOW CAL IS EXTORTING FUNDS FROM Guyana

Check the ticket price....

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 231): Quoting A388 (Reply 230): Again AA didn't stop the SJU-CCS flights. They're planning to do so.

Nope.

there should be an announcement for BZE later this week.....

some of my a.net friends might want to dig up their comments from the OAG thread a few months ago and review carefully cause they are in for a shock 

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 237): Nope.

Very wise move from AA part not to plan to stop SJU-CCS.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 236):

Dont know where you are getting your info from. Checked fares for travel in June. $750, including taxes and fees. The SAME fare that DL used to charge for travel in a similar period. Yes high for BW, but just about what DL used to do. Given that there are very few seats in coach it is no suprise. That is how airlines price.

In fact its good that BW is charging such fares as it increases the probability that a competitor will enter at some point. Indeed there were reports some time ago that AA was looking to start a MIA GEO route. Now I can more easily justify some sort of incentive for that route, as its success is less guaranteed than a 4X JFK GEO run.

BTW fares on the JFK POS are also higher for the same reasons. NO SEATS! DL tried to undercut BW on that route and failed.


Now here is the rub. DL wanted Guyana to buy aviation fuel at market, and then sell it to them at the same subsidy which BW got from T&T. I got this from some one very close to the Guyana govt.

Of course with T&T one state owned compnay is selling at doscount to another, an gets reimbursed by its OWNER!

Does Guyana own or produce aviation fuel?

I am just shocked that you really believe that it would make good sense for Guyana (only Haiti, Bolivia and Nicaragua are poorer in the Americas) to use scarce govt funds at a time when it suffers massive flooding due to rising ocean levels! How many jobs does DL create in Guyana?

Will any one who flew DL not travel to Guyana? Will its tourist industry risk collapse by losing a brand carrier? No because they are all Guyanese!!!

So you think that rice farmers and home owners should face major looding just so that DL can fatten itself by intimidating a poor country? Well I normally do not support that govt, but I back them up on this ludicrous demand that they buy jet fuel for DL.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 240): Dont know where you are getting your info from. Checked fares for travel in June. $750, including taxes and fees. The SAME fare that DL used to charge for travel in a similar period.

Yet, you accused DL of raping the consumer in GEO

Quoting guyanam (Reply 240): In fact its good that BW is charging such fares as it increases the probability that a competitor will enter at some point.

Why did you not think it was when DL was charging the fare (as per your comparison above), but now that BW is charging it is good because it will spur entrance of a competitor.

You had a competitor. it is now gone. enjoy the monopoly.


AA is nowhere near launching GEO. Of that I am sure.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 241):

I really do think from your ardent defense of DL that you really think that DL was right to demand that Guyana should buy expensive jet fuel and then sell it to DL cheap.

I remain to see any evidence that BWs fuel subsidy in any way impacted DLs operations into GEO. The culprit impacting profitablility last year was EZjet and BW raised their fares as soon as EZ had gone. So how does the subsidy hurt DL? It was a case of DL figuring that if they can get it why not, and if not, so what, as GEO matters little to a giant like DL.

In fact Guyaneee not only criticized DL for high fares, but also BW, comparing the JFK GEO with its JFK POS fares at that time. .

Up to early last year you boasted that DL was doing well into GEO, making money hand over fist? Indeed LFs of 85%, on top of high yields, did suggest that DL was perfectly fine on that route so I had no reason to disbelieve you.

So why this manc rant by DL to steal funds from impoverished farmers?


With DL off the route PY will replace them, and maybe Fly Jam. So Guyana will get additional; JFK service from later this year, subject to US approvals. The JFK GEO can comfortably take 2 carriers.

If PY doesnt demand ransom from Guyana as DL does then that makes them better. What does DL offer Guyana that PY doesnt? Why is this worth millions of dollars in subsidies? Dont say tourists or investors because DL brought none of those. All DL did was replace North American, a charter outfit.

[Edited 2013-05-20 14:41:42]

Quoting guyanam (Reply 242): With DL off the route PY will replace them, and maybe Fly Jam.

PY....they got their own problems trying to take care of PBM burgeoning tourism industry. As for FlyJam, they believe (rightly so) in Jamaica first..so they got lots of other low hanging fruit before they even contemplate GEO to the USA.

So for the time being....its BW or bust buddy!

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 243):

Fly Jam is owned by a Guyanese who definitely wants to serve his country. Why are they going through the expense of applying for route rights?

PY has made noises up to a few months agoi about GEO and in fact they see growth based only on PBM as limited so need new markets and GEO is the opbvious one available.


DL ought to be ashamed of themselves by screaming like a spoiled child because Guyana refused to buy fuel at market rates and sell it to DL cheap. Its a pity that you think so little of Guyanese that you think that DL should be allowed to hold that nation to ransom when it has major problems with se defense, given rising oceans.


DL does NOT want GEO so I do not know why you continue to pretend that they do. Asking a non oil producer to subsidize fuel to the extent that an oil producer does is basically the same as when DL told TAB some years ago that "we do not care how much you pay us we are dropping you".


Comments by PY. http://www.guyanatimesgy.com/?p=5486

[Edited 2013-05-20 17:43:04]

New forum up.

Changing Tides - Caribbean Aviation Thread 105 (by BW424 May 20 2013 in Civil Aviation)