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zhiao
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Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:16 am

With AA 77Ws replacing single and sometimes two 772s at a time, what new routes or existkhb
will utilize these spare aircraft? I think it's a great opportunity to use the 777 to places like Colombia, Spain, Chile, France, and where 767s are used. But of course then that begs the question as to where the 763s will go.

They can also open new routes like TLV and Lagos.
 
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777222LR
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:02 am

With the new US Air deal, I expect some of those 777's will go on high-demand US Airways routes that need something larger than an A330.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:05 am

Quoting zhiao (Thread starter):
But of course then that begs the question as to where the 763s will go.

As mentioned in other threads, some of the 763s could be used for Caribbean routes where passenger and cargo space was lost with the retirement of the A300 fleet.
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N243NW
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:18 am

In the very short-term future, AA has plans sometime this spring to get 3 paint lines going simultaneously on the 777s, so for a while there will be 3 (!) frames out of service at any one time, not counting maintenance checks and operational spares.
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
hoons90
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:24 am

Are there any immediate plans to retrofit the J class cabins on the 772s? I'd like to know as I'm planning to upgrade to J class on my flight to ICN.
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crAAzy
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:32 am

Quoting N243NW (Reply 3):
In the very short-term future, AA has plans sometime this spring to get 3 paint lines going simultaneously on the 777s, so for a while there will be 3 (!) frames out of service at any one time, not counting maintenance checks and operational spares.

        

The take home point here with the new ICN route, painting schedules, maintenance checks, operational spares, charters, a decreasing number of 763s available, and reconfigurations of all the 772s into a three class J,W,Y is that it will be quite a while before AA has any "spare" 777s.
 
N243NW
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:33 am

Quoting hoons90 (Reply 4):
Are there any immediate plans to retrofit the J class cabins on the 772s?

Last I heard, the plans to develop an entirely new J seat for the 772 and 763 were still on track, but I don't know what the timeline is...sorry  
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
hoons90
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:39 am

Quoting N243NW (Reply 6):
Last I heard, the plans to develop an entirely new J seat for the 772 and 763 were still on track, but I don't know what the timeline is...sorry

Thanks! Interesting to know that the 772s and 763s will be getting entirely new seat designs for J.

I still look forward to trying the older J class seats and the famous sundae.
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dank
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:46 am

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 1):

With the new US Air deal, I expect some of those 777's will go on high-demand US Airways routes that need something larger than an A330.


Not exactly much of a capacity bump over the 330-300 (and not one in their respective configurations). Now it could potentially be a replacement for some longer routes that require a 200 instead but with extra capacity (not sure us actually has any of those).
 
b2319
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:43 am

Quoting zhiao (Thread starter):
They can also open new routes like TLV and Lagos.

I've got a feeling TLV isn't going to happen due to some unresolved issues connected to TWA redundancies (or lack of) around 2008. Neither the USA nor Israel are parts of the world that I'm paying much attention to, however, I am sure there are others here who can prove/disprove this, and if the former, provide all the background, data, links and so on.....

Cheers

B-2319
 
phlwok
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:48 am

Quoting dank (Reply 8):
Not exactly much of a capacity bump over the 330-300 (and not one in their respective configurations). Now it could potentially be a replacement for some longer routes that require a 200 instead but with extra capacity (not sure us actually has any of those).

PHL-TLV perhaps - the 332 flies it as it has the range that the 333 doesn't, and the flight does very well but US could only increase capacity via either increasing frequency to more than daily (requiring 2 more aircraft) or introducing a new aircraft type to the fleet. Otherwise, US seems to have its capacity figured out pretty well versus demand in the European routes, though those routes should gain more domestic feed after integration.
 
AR385
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:06 am

Quoting PHLwok (Reply 10):
PHL-TLV perhaps - the 332 flies it as it has the range that the 333 doesn't, and the flight does very well but US could only increase capacity via either increasing frequency to more than daily (requiring 2 more aircraft) or introducing a new aircraft type to the fleet.

Which begs the question: Will the new merged airline be able to continue the routes to TLV due to the unresolved redundancy issues in Israel?
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 11):
Will the new merged airline be able to continue the routes to TLV due to the unresolved redundancy issues in Israel?

The claim has been made numerous times in past threads that AA could simply write a check to clear the judgment if they wanted. To my knowledge, that situation hasn't changed.
International Homo of Mystery
 
oc2dc
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:25 pm

Quoting hoons90 (Reply 4):
Are there any immediate plans to retrofit the J class cabins on the 772s? I'd like to know as I'm planning to upgrade to J class on my flight to ICN.

AA stated that it won't start re-configuring/installing the new J class on the 777 until 2014. So unless you plan on taking a journey to ICN next year, you won't see the new J class product.

The same goes for the 767. It won't be reconfigured until 2014. We have yet to see what type of new J class they will install on the 767. I'm quite curious because it is clear the new J on the 777's won't be able to fit on the 767.
I'm not complaining, I'm critiquing...
 
TWACaptain
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:55 pm

The "left-over" 772s will be put on to the routes currently flown with 7673s, allowing them to be deployed elsewhere.

DFW-FRA (AA70/71) returns to being a 772 on 7/2/13 for example.

Glenn
TWA-Gone, but not forgotten...
 
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redzeppelin
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:29 pm

Loan them to JAL to fill in for the 787s for a while?  
 
airDFW
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:43 pm

Quoting N243NW (Reply 3):

In the very short-term future, AA has plans sometime this spring to get 3 paint lines going simultaneously on the 777s, so for a while there will be 3 (!) frames out of service at any one time, not counting maintenance checks and operational spares.

How long is this painting/plane?
 
Dldiamondboy
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:03 pm

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 1):

PHX is under utilized for international flights. I know of no direct flights from PHX to Asia. I only know of one direct flight from PHX to Europe, BA runs a 744 into PHX. The 777 could be used on PHX-NRT, PHX-PVG etc. where the A332 nor 763 has the legs for these routes. I would imagine most of the originating international passengers from PHX go to LAX first.
 
brilondon
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:56 pm

Quoting DLDiamondboy (Reply 17):
PHX is under utilized for international flights. I know of no direct flights from PHX to Asia. I only know of one direct flight from PHX to Europe, BA runs a 744 into PHX. The 777 could be used on PHX-NRT, PHX-PVG etc. where the A332 nor 763 has the legs for these routes. I would imagine most of the originating international passengers from PHX go to LAX first.

Maybe there is not enough demand for direct international flights from PHX. What kind of demand is there for international traffic that originates from PHX and connects through other hubs?

[Edited 2013-02-23 14:56:37]
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silentbob
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:16 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 11):
Which begs the question: Will the new merged airline be able to continue the routes to TLV due to the unresolved redundancy issues in Israel?

Yes, they will cut a check and add JFK and MIA to TLV service within 18-24 months.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:29 am

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 13):
Quoting hoons90 (Reply 4):
Are there any immediate plans to retrofit the J class cabins on the 772s? I'd like to know as I'm planning to upgrade to J class on my flight to ICN.

AA stated that it won't start re-configuring/installing the new J class on the 777 until 2014. So unless you plan on taking a journey to ICN next year, you won't see the new J class product.

The same goes for the 767. It won't be reconfigured until 2014. We have yet to see what type of new J class they will install on the 767. I'm quite curious because it is clear the new J on the 777's won't be able to fit on the 767.


We have yet to see what the 772 J product is. The 77W seats will not be installed on the 772.
a.
 
JoePatroni707
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:42 am

Quoting TWACaptain (Reply 14):
The "left-over" 772s will be put on to the routes currently flown with 7673s, allowing them to be deployed elsewhere.

DFW-FRA (AA70/71) returns to being a 772 on 7/2/13 for example

Just a temp upgrade. Reverts back to a 763 on Nov 21
 
Dldiamondboy
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:34 am

Quoting brilondon (Reply 18):

Good question. There either is not that much or there is unmet demand due to US Airways in ability to provide it. There has to be some European demand if BA runs a daily 744 even if it is seasonal.
 
Sydscott
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:41 am

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 13):
We have yet to see what type of new J class they will install on the 767

The US Airways A330 premium product would fit in a 777 and, like on AC's 767's, on an AA 767. Maybe they could standardise the fleet on that?
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:45 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):
The 77W seats will not be installed on the 772.

I know that was the PMAA plan, but with PMUS Envoy product being practically identical to the 77W product, I wonder if that plan will change. After all, it would makes sense to have a largely uniform product across the 330/777 fleet.

The 767s are, of course, a different story.
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fraspotter
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:54 am

I was really happy when I read that

Quoting TWACaptain (Reply 14):
DFW-FRA (AA70/71) returns to being a 772 on 7/2/13 for example.

until I came across this...  
Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 21):
Just a temp upgrade. Reverts back to a 763 on Nov 21

In the last 6 years I flew this route more times than I care to remember and it was always on a 772. I imagine I probably flew on half the 772 fleet of AA in that time frame. Have passenger numbers on DFW-FRA-DFW really dropped that much or is there another reason? I understand LHR is AA's baby but is that a reason to pull a 772 from FRA?
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."

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PHX787
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:27 am

Quoting DLDiamondboy (Reply 17):
PHX is under utilized for international flights. I know of no direct flights from PHX to Asia. I only know of one direct flight from PHX to Europe, BA runs a 744 into PHX. The 777 could be used on PHX-NRT, PHX-PVG etc. where the A332 nor 763 has the legs for these routes. I would imagine most of the originating international passengers from PHX go to LAX first.

As I routinely say at least 20 times a week, there is a huge push to get a flight to Asia from PHX. It all depends on how much backing that the city gives this.
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MAH4546
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:00 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 24):
[I know that was the PMAA plan, but with PMUS Envoy product being practically identical to the 77W product, I wonder if that plan will change. After all, it would makes sense to have a largely uniform product across the 330/777 fleet.

And throw away the millions AA has already invested creating a custom-built product with the manufacturer? Doubt it. Uniform products are nice, but when you have a varied long-haul fleet that can't all handle the same seat, there's zero point as long as they all lay flat. The seat could be announced soon, maybe late spring. It was just in focus group testing.

PMAA plans are so far along in development - including the new 772 J seats and the A321 config - the merger isn't going to change a thing.

Further, the two airlines aren't even likely to be merged by the fall, and AA needs to continue doing what's it doing solo until then. PMAA still exists, and will exist for at least nine months.
a.
 
OB1504
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:37 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 27):
And throw away the millions AA has already invested creating a custom-built product with the manufacturer? Doubt it. Uniform products are nice, but when you have a varied long-haul fleet that can't all handle the same seat, there's zero point as long as they all lay flat. The seat could be announced soon, maybe late spring. It was just in focus group testing.

Why can't the same J seat be used in the 772 and 77W fleets? The most frustrating thing about AA has to be its product inconsistency.
 
jayunited
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:50 am

Quoting DLDiamondboy (Reply 17):
The 777 could be used on PHX-NRT, PHX-PVG etc.

How big is the PHX to Asia market?
When you start talking about flights places like NRT O&D traffic really becomes an issue do to the fact that both AA and JL (they are in a JV) already serve NRT nonstop from a host of key cities so the potential for AA to get decent feed for a daily PHX-NRT route seems rather small because their customers already have options and most people traveling internationally prefer to take a nonstop or a one stop if it is available. So can PHX realistically support daily year around 777 service to NRT without having to rely heavily on feed from connecting traffic?
 
PHX787
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:04 am

Quoting jayunited (Reply 29):
How big is the PHX to Asia market?

A few articles so I don't have to keep spouting the same thing every time someone asks about the PHX to Asia market:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...-aiport-international-flights.html

There's also an article which says that the airport directive talked to JL:

Quote:
Deputy airport director Deborah Ostreicher said Sky Harbor executives are talking to Japan Airlines and other Asian airlines about flights to Phoenix.

“In fact, I just returned from a visit to JAL and other Asian carriers. There is potential there, but currently no news to announce,” Ostreicher said. Former Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon worked to get flights from the Middle East to Phoenix during his tenure in office, but no such flight came to fruition.
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n...bs-first-asia-flight.html?page=all

Basically, to put it in other words, there's a sizable demand, but some of the PDEW numbers don't show it.

I went to the Arizona Japanese Matsuri this afternoon, and the Japanese consul present stated there's over 20 companies in PHX alone, and many others present in other parts of the valley, and that the Japanese business market in the valley is growing indeed.

At the same time, this isn't counting the other Asian nations with presence in the valley. Surely it's nowhere near as much as Cali but it's still a large market.

I believe once a flight to Asia is added, those PDEW numbers will skyrocket.
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jayunited
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:41 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 30):

Both of your articles are good and the list of airlines that PHX is trying to convince to start international service from the the airport is good. The problem I see when reading these articles is that from the airlines perspective the passenger traffic is not there to support daily international operations. I thought it was interesting that PHX airport officials brought up the fact that Delta's PDX-NRT flight is subsidized by PDX airport. So what that means is Delta knows that with the subsidy they can probably break even on that route with just O&D traffic.
With the high cost associated with international travel and the cost of jet fuel airlines need more than just the assurance of city officials that there is enough passenger traffic to make an international route profitable especially when you are so close to LAX and most of those airlines already have flights out of LAX. If a city like PHX is to be successful in their bid they probably will have to offer a sizable subsidy much more than the $285,000 - $900,000 dollars they currently have on the table if they are going to get airlines to start international service to Asia and that probably includes the soon to be merged AA/US.
 
AA77W
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:52 am

Does RDU-LHR stand a chance of being operated by a 772 again?
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:02 am

Quoting jayunited (Reply 31):
I thought it was interesting that PHX airport officials brought up the fact that Delta's PDX-NRT flight is subsidized by PDX airport. So what that means is Delta knows that with the subsidy they can probably break even on that route with just O&D traffic.

That article refers to the situation from a few years ago. The Port of Portland no longer subsidizes the DL flights to NRT and AMS.

Port's gamble on Delta pays off
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PHX787
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:58 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 33):
That article refers to the situation from a few years ago. The Port of Portland no longer subsidizes the DL flights to NRT and AMS.

Sounds like that it could be a plan PHX could use to their advantage. Subsidize a transpac flight and see if it pays off! Thanks for that link.
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bobnwa
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:17 pm

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 1):
With the new US Air deal, I expect some of those 777's will go on high-demand US Airways routes that need something larger than an A330

Isn't a A333 larger than a B772 already?
 
dank
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:56 pm

Quoting AA77W (Reply 32):

Does RDU-LHR stand a chance of being operated by a 772 again?

As far as I know, the only reason it had seasonally been a 772 was the fact that they rotated planes through LGW (i.e., it was a 772 when both DFW flights were 772s and a 763 when one of the DFW flights was a 763) since there were no other transatlantic flights out of RDU. Once they switched to LHR, this wasn't needed. Y was empty every time i flew it, so I'm not sure there's a huge demand for a bigger plane.
 
dank
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:58 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 35):
Quoting 777222LR (Reply 1):
With the new US Air deal, I expect some of those 777's will go on high-demand US Airways routes that need something larger than an A330

Isn't a A333 larger than a B772 already?

Approximately the same size. The only value (for replacing US metal) would be for increased capacity on flights outside the range of the 333 (that the 332 can now handle) or rebalancing of aircraft. But from a capacity standpoint on say PHL to western Europe...
 
777STL
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:10 pm

With DFW and LAX both already having service to Asia, I sure don't see PHX receiving service to Asia as a part of this merger. I'd imagine NRT is the only halfway viable Asian route for PHX, and I don't see a combined AA taking away a slot from DFW or LAX to start service out of PHX.

LAX is just too close and has plenty of service between LAX and PHX with both airlines, DFW isn't terribly far away either.
PHX based
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:25 pm

Quoting fraspotter (Reply 25):
In the last 6 years I flew this route more times than I care to remember and it was always on a 772. I imagine I probably flew on half the 772 fleet of AA in that time frame. Have passenger numbers on DFW-FRA-DFW really dropped that much or is there another reason? I understand LHR is AA's baby but is that a reason to pull a 772 from FRA?

DFW-FRA historically used to be one of AA's best performing routes, bolstered by military traffic. I'm not really sure what exactly has happened over the years, since the flight has been seasonally downgauged to a 763 during lower seasons and lost daily frequency. It could be because of the economy/Europe, but also just by the nature of Star Alliance owning Frankfurt.

My guess would be that once AA reconfigures the 777s to a 2-class layout, with MCE, the route will see a year-round 777.
 
winginit
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:36 pm

Quoting 777STL (Reply 38):

With DFW and LAX both already having service to Asia, I sure don't see PHX receiving service to Asia as a part of this merger. I'd imagine NRT is the only halfway viable Asian route for PHX, and I don't see a combined AA taking away a slot from DFW or LAX to start service out of PHX.

LAX is just too close and has plenty of service between LAX and PHX with both airlines, DFW isn't terribly far away either.

Agreed. It seems hardly an inconvenience to simply connect in LAX or DFW from PHX to head to Asia as opposed to having to weigh the up and downside of having the city subsidize a route in hopes that it will break-even or prove profitable.
 
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fraspotter
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:07 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 39):
I'm not really sure what exactly has happened over the years, since the flight has been seasonally downgauged to a 763 during lower seasons and lost daily frequency.

It's no longer daily? When did this happen and how many times per week does DFW-FRA-DFW AA 70/71 fly?
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."

— Gunter's Second Law of Air Travel
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Where Will Spare AA 777s Be Used?

Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:01 am

Quoting fraspotter (Reply 41):
It's no longer daily? When did this happen and how many times per week does DFW-FRA-DFW AA 70/71 fly?

It is back to daily this winter, but last year, it, along with DFW-CDG, was operated 6 weekly. DFW-CDG is also daily again.

DFW-FRA, however, has gone from 6w last year (down from daily during the peak summer) to 5w this winter   It will return to daily the 1st week of April. American will up-gauge DFW-FRA to a 777 in July.

DFW-MAD will convert from a 767-300 to a 777 the second week of June, around the same period that DFW-EZE will be downguaged from a 777-200 to a 763 for the Southern Hemisphere winter.

DFW-LHR this summer will consist of 3x 777s (AA) and 1x 747 (BA) with AA 50/51 on the 77W throughout the summer and AA 78/79 alternating between the 777 and 77W at various points  

Interestingly, last year AA ran 4x daily DFW-LHR flights during S12, in addition to the BA flight.

S10 was the peak for DFW in that DFW-CDG/MAD/FRA/LHR were all on 777s, with the exception of 1 DFW-LHR flight that was on a 763.

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