Quokkas
Topic Author
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Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:31 am

AENA, the organisation which owns many of Spain's airports, has increased fees as it struggles to reduce its €14 billion debt. Fees were raised by an average of 19 per cent last years and a further 8 per cent this year. In response Ryanair threatened to reduce flights to Spain in the hope of a reduction.

The Irish Times reports that FR is saying that it will follow through on its threats at the end of March.

Quote:
The Ryanair move, which takes effect at the end of March, will see the airline reduce its Spanish flights by 12 per cent, with the biggest cuts in Madrid, Barcelona, Seville and Valladolid. It will stop flying from the northern airports of Asturias and Bilbao.

Is it all bluster or will they follow through? Are any reductions that may happen solely linked to increased fees or are the routes simply not as profitable as FR would like?

No doubt other airlines don't like the increased charges but has there been any similar threat from other carriers?


Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...nance/2013/0223/1224330415654.html
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:41 am

Another attempt at free PR from Ryanair. Funny how they only care about increased fees when they don't go in their bank accounts.

[Edited 2013-02-23 01:41:43]
 
kl911
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:08 am

Quoting Quokkas (Thread starter):
Fees were raised by an average of 19 per cent last years and a further 8 per cent this year.

I totally understand them, not only the carriers should protest, but the public as well! But I assume most carriers have already protested.
 
LJ
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:20 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Thread starter):

Is it all bluster or will they follow through?

They probably will.

Quoting Quokkas (Thread starter):
Are any reductions that may happen solely linked to increased fees or are the routes simply not as profitable as FR would like?

Probably the latter, though nobody can know for certain (other than FR). FR is in a business to make money, thus they won't axe a highly profitable route just because they don't agree with the amount of taxes their customers have to pay. I haven't seen many route cancellations where they cite bad performance as the sole reason.

Quoting Quokkas (Thread starter):
No doubt other airlines don't like the increased charges but has there been any similar threat from other carriers?

U2 already reduced capacity in the Spanish market (and they also used the tax argument). However, they also acknowledged that the Spanish market isn't (or wasn't) doing well.


Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
I totally understand them, not only the carriers should protest, but the public as well! But I assume most carriers have already protested.

They can protest all they want but AENA has some serious financial issues. Fees have always been relatively low compared to other airports, thus room for an increase. In the end, what's better, a bankrupt AENA or let your customers pay more for your services? At least for the latter you can still operate the airport.
 
acelanzarote
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:31 pm

Just how many planes could this make spare, and where might they be used instead....
MAD did have 5 based there IIRC etc...
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realsim
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:04 pm

FR should start wondering why they don't operate from LHR, CDG, ORY, FRA, MUC, AMS, ZUR or MXP, and why they do operate from MAD and BCN. AENA is reducing the gap between the taxes of the most important European airports and the taxes of MAD and BCN. The mostly touristict airports, however, won't see a significant increase.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:36 pm

Quoting realsim (Reply 5):
FR should start wondering why they don't operate from LHR, CDG, ORY, FRA, MUC, AMS, ZUR or MXP, and why they do operate from MAD and BCN. AENA is reducing the gap between the taxes of the most important European airports and the taxes of MAD and BCN. The mostly touristict airports, however, won't see a significant increase.

I can't think of any alternative airport for MAD... BCN is another story (GRO and REU).
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:57 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Thread starter):
Is it all bluster or will they follow through?

Haven't they done this in the past at other countries or airports? IIRC, it had some success
 
PanHAM
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:59 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 6):
I can't think of any alternative airport for MAD.

They opened one and closed it before FR cpould be seduced to fly there  

May be MOL feels sorry about that now.
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Eagleboy
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:37 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 1):
Another attempt at free PR from Ryanair
Quoting Quokkas (Thread starter):
Are any reductions that may happen solely linked to increased fees or are the routes simply not as profitable as FR would like?
Quoting LJ (Reply 3):
FR is in a business to make money, thus they won't axe a highly profitable route just because they don't agree with the amount of taxes their customers have to pay. I haven't seen many route cancellations where they cite bad performance as the sole reason.

They complain about the high costs of DUB and MAN but I don't see them pulling out of those airports in protest.........

....oh yeah, because those routes are profitable for FR.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:57 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):

Ciudad Real was a joke from day 1.

According to Google Maps, it is 227 km. from Madrid. Even for Ryanair standards it is really far. The high-speed train Madrid-Andalucia goes by the airport and there was a plan to do a train station there, but what is the point of saving money with Ryanair to take an expensive high-speed train to get there? (specially MAD is so convenient to get from and to the city with metro or suburban rail).

Secondly, the airport is in middle of nowhere (literally). Ciudad Real is about 70,000 and has 0 touristic interest. Some people make fun about Ryanair's "alternative" airports, but some of them actually serve alternative locations with millions of people. Think about Charleroi, it is quite popular in Southern Belgium, Lille and even Luxembourg. Stansted, close to Cambridge and NW London. Bergamo, same distance to Milan than Malpensa and about 100 km. from Verona or Bologna.

And finally, Madrid (contrary to some other airports in Europe) is far from being to maximum capacity since T4 was opened, and the drop in traffic with the crisis has not helped.
 
MIAspotter
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:59 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Thread starter):

Oh well, MOL, don´t let the door hit ya on yer arse on the way out.

If they go, some routes can be easily picked up by VY or UX and we can support our economy.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 1):
Another attempt at free PR from Ryanair. Funny how they only care about increased fees when they don't go in their bank accounts.

  

Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
But I assume most carriers have already protested.

Assume wrong buddy, I have not read of VY, UX, or any other carrier complaning/bitching/crying over it, except just easyJet that cut MAD and reduced BCN.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 6):
I can't think of any alternative airport for MAD

Burgos... but that is also 2 hours from MAD and midway to BIO.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 10):
Ciudad Real was a joke from day 1.



Yup, just like Castellon... ahh the boom days, millions of € invested in infrastructure nobody uses.

MIAspotter.
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LJ
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:17 pm

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 11):
Assume wrong buddy, I have not read of VY, UX, or any other carrier complaning/bitching/crying over it, except just easyJet that cut MAD and reduced BCN.

I doubt VY and UX weren't complaining (as I recall that AEA also complianed on behalf of their members). They just aren't that vocal and raised their fees.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 11):
Burgos... but that is also 2 hours from MAD and midway to BIO.

Howver that's also an AENA airport, thus you won't gain anythiing.
 
r2rho
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:18 pm

Typical FR protest against fees (which by the way, they are in their perfect right to do, and if higher fees make some routes unviable, ).

AENA's airport fees have been comparably low over many years, and they are now just playing catch up with other comparable EU airports. That FR flies into BCN despite GRO and REU being available is proof of that. (Admittedly, there is no alternative to MAD within FR-distances, so they have no choice but to put up with fees there).

Quoting Quokkas (Thread starter):
It will stop flying from the northern airports of Asturias and Bilbao.

As far as BIO is concerned, they can still choose to fly to EAS or VIT if they want, both within FR-distance, and probably much cheaper fees. Asturias has no real alternate but doesn't have big pax demand, so the higher fees may make it unviable for FR to keep flying.
VY will happily pick up the routes that are still viable...
 
[email protected]
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:23 pm

Late last year I attended a presentation by a former senior FR man. He insisted that they must protest against such increases because if they do not they will set a precedent that suggests that they are willing to pay it. Before long, airports will seek increases and their existence will be undermined. Therefore, and regardless of the reason for cancelling specifc routes or public reaction to it, it's a mandatory reaction.
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Quokkas
Topic Author
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:43 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
not only the carriers should protest, but the public as well!

So how do you suggest that AENA reduce its debt if it can't raise fees? I suppose they could sell-off the odd airport but I don't see a private operator wishing to subsidise FR.

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 14):
Therefore, and regardless of the reason for cancelling specific routes or public reaction to it, it's a mandatory reaction.

Given the serious debt levels, what likelihood of that strategy being successful is there? If AENA accommodate FR then there will be pressure for similar accommodations from other carriers. FR's strategy might work when facing a single airport but can they expect the same success on a country-wide basis?
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
SCQ83
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:14 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 13):
As far as BIO is concerned, they can still choose to fly to EAS or VIT if they want, both within FR-distance, and probably much cheaper fees. Asturias has no real alternate but doesn't have big pax demand, so the higher fees may make it unviable for FR to keep flying.
VY will happily pick up the routes that are still viable...

I don't think EAS is viable for a B737. VY flies there their A319 because of restrictions. Also, EAS is quite close to BIQ (which could be as well San Sebastian-East) and SDR is at all effects "Bilbao-West" (certainly the reason they maintain so many European routes from Santander, otherwise the local market is even smaller than OVD). Ryanair already flew to VIT in the past. I guess the issue with VIT is that they cannot keep MAD (too close by train) and BCN (small market for such large planes), so for secondary Spanish and international destinations from Bilbao... they already got SDR well set.
 
PHX787
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:24 pm

Wait...really? FR wants to cut Spanish routes due to tax hikes?

Well well well, looks like some fliers in Spain are going to be happy about the tax hikes now that it scared of FR...
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sabenapilot
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:37 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 10):
Some people make fun about Ryanair's "alternative" airports, but some of them actually serve alternative locations with millions of people. Think about Charleroi, it is quite popular in Southern Belgium, Lille and even Luxembourg.

You're kidding right?

Some background information about Charleroi:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...es-more-depressing-by-the-day.html

If it wasn't for the millions in taxpayer's money wasted on a prestige project like CRL, the success of FR at this airport would be non-existing, because litterally nobody in his right mind would think about going there on holiday or business!
 
SCQ83
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:01 pm

Quoting sabenapilot (Reply 18):
You're kidding right?

Some background information about Charleroi:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f....html

And? What are you trying to say?

Airports are commonly in "depressed" neighbourhoods or areas (wealthy people don't want to live with the noise of plains, land is cheaper so you can "waste" it in land strips, etc.) so I don't know what is the issue with that.

The fact (like it or not, as what I assume from your nickname), CRL is very popular in Benelux and Northern France, and the number of passengers, growth and all the complaints from Brussels Airlines are a good indication.

Of course BRU serves better Flanders and Brussels. But even CRL is a mere 60 km. from downtown Brussels, not much further than some airports from other major cities worldwide. CRL is very convenient from Lille... only 1 hour by car. The only other option from Lille is CDG, 2 hours by car or less than 1 hour with (expensive) high-speed train, or BVA, 2 hours as well. For Luxembourg, it is the same distance as HHN, but there is a market since there is even regular bus service CRL-Luxembourg. And even Wallonie, despite being one of the most economically depressed regions in Central Europe, has a few million people. I have flown in and out CRL a few times, and I was even surprised there was a good number of Dutch (!!) carplates... I know this is completely anecdotical but it seems that CRL can even attract people from as far as Netherlands.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:20 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 19):
What are you trying to say?

That your remark about Charleroi allegedly being such a popular destination is to be taken with a grain of salt: almost nobody flying to CRL is actually doing so to go to Charleroi itself, nor to the region around it: most passengers head out to Brussels, Flanders, France or even the Netherlands (as you have noticed yourself), so this just proofs CRL perfectly fits the profile of a typical 'alternative' FR destination, contrary to what you think of it.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Ryanair To Cut Spain Routes In Tax Protest

Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:39 pm

Quoting sabenapilot (Reply 20):

My comment was regarding the comparison with Ciudad Real in Spain. CR is a small town of 70,000 is sparsely populated Castille (probably one the least densest populated regions in Western Europe). Madrid is 225 km. away from Ciudad Real airport. I would be surprised you even have 500,000 ppl in a 100 km. radius from that airport. That airport had a fail label on it.

Some airports like CRL are more "secondary" to the main city (in this case Brussels), but in a 100 km. radius from CRL you have most of Belgium and Lille/Nord Pas de Calais, and for some people (millions) that is the closest/most convenient airport (case of Lille... their airport sees little service).

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