EIDL
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:35 pm

I can remember the media being certain that the end of EU duty free was the guaranteed death of Aer Rianta and that we'd be selling the airports for pennies and keeping the debt... which did eventually happen with Shannon I admit!
 
irishair98
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:32 am

So I'm heading to BHX from DUB on Friday and was never in the gold circle Lounge in T2 and was just wonder should I bother spending €25 to visit the Lounge instead of waiting at the gate.
Dún Na Ngall Abú!
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:05 am

Quoting irishair98 (Reply 51):

So I'm heading to BHX from DUB on Friday and was never in the gold circle Lounge in T2 and was just wonder should I bother spending €25 to visit the Lounge instead of waiting at the gate.

The lounge is well worth a visit, I wouldn't spend that amount of money regularly but every now and then it's fine. It has all the trimmings you'd expect, free wifi, great views and comfortable seating so it's a world away from the busy Pier E gates. The only thing I'd like to see offered in the "flagship lounge" is hot food, I think the EY lounge has it but maybe EI prefer to encourage people to purchase the hot food on board rather than fill them up for free in the lounge!
 
EIBoston
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:26 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 49):
Indeed BA do some cracking fares and hard to beat sometimes. The EI fare to the likes of JFK and BOS are very high at the moment even when there are plenty of seats in all classes. Also EI have not lifted the Sat night stay requirement so alot of the time there can be a EUR 200 difference on a Mon-Fri itinerary between EI and Via LHR options.

Yes the EI fares are high from BOS. Travelling back twice this year with family of 4. Not looking like I will be going with EI for either. BA and UA - saving myself lots of $$$, while I would prefer a direct flight, there is limit on everything. Given that there 3 EI flights on some days in the summer, cheapest fares of $1069 pp is tough to swallow.
 
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OA260
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:46 am

Quoting irishair98 (Reply 51):
So I'm heading to BHX from DUB on Friday and was never in the gold circle Lounge in T2 and was just wonder should I bother spending €25 to visit the Lounge instead of waiting at the gate.

If you can get a few hours in there and take advantage of the bar and snacks then yes worth it once in a while.

Quoting EIBoston (Reply 53):
Yes the EI fares are high from BOS. Travelling back twice this year with family of 4.

Certainly is.

----

Congrats to EY on their 1M passenger :

Etihad Airlines flies 1,000,000 from Dublin to Abu Dhabi

Etihad Airways, the national airline of the United Arab Emirates has today, 28 February, passed a major milestone after flying the one millionth passenger on its Dublin route.

The Abu Dhabi-based airline launched services from Dublin in 2007 and since then the Irish capital has frequently featured in its top 10 most popular routes. The flights have also helped enhance commercial and cultural ties between Ireland and the UAE.

http://www.businessfirstonline.co.uk/?p=10986
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:00 pm

Quoting EIBoston (Reply 53):
Yes the EI fares are high from BOS. Travelling back twice this year with family of 4. Not looking like I will be going with EI for either. BA and UA - saving myself lots of $$$, while I would prefer a direct flight, there is limit on everything. Given that there 3 EI flights on some days in the summer, cheapest fares of $1069 pp is tough to swallow.

BOS needs a good, old fashioned fares war alright. I'm amazed that still no US carrier has seen fit to challenge EI's monopoly on the Boston route. AA and DL do operate TATL services from BOS if i'm not mistaken?
 
EIBoston
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:23 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 55):
BOS needs a good, old fashioned fares war alright. I'm amazed that still no US carrier has seen fit to challenge EI's monopoly on the Boston route. AA and DL do operate TATL services from BOS if i'm not mistaken?

Agreed. EI really have this one all to themselves in terms of direct service. Yes AA and DL do operate TATL service out of BOS. However in AA's case, that is diminishing. As of this month I think, they no longer operate their own metal to LHR. Instead BA have added another 747/777 flight.
I dont see any American airline jumping on the BOS-Ireland routes to be honest.
 
dstc47
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:52 pm

Did someone smile at you in DUB today for no good reason?

A syndicate of 17 Dublin airport authority employees have won last Saturday's €6.4 million lottery jackpot.
Not enough to buy the Governments remaining stake in EI, but nice enough.
 
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OA260
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:38 pm

Quoting dstc47 (Reply 57):
Did someone smile at you in DUB today for no good reason?

A syndicate of 17 Dublin airport authority employees have won last Saturday's €6.4 million lottery jackpot.
Not enough to buy the Governments remaining stake in EI, but nice enough.

That's great . Fair play to them. I love it when syndicates at a work place win the lotto. Great to see it shared by many who will all benefit and hopefully use it wisely to improve their Families lifestyle.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 58):
That's great . Fair play to them. I love it when syndicates at a work place win the lotto. Great to see it shared by many who will all benefit and hopefully use it wisely to improve their Families lifestyle.

Yup, there was a palpable buzz in Terminal one on sunday, with one Spar employee saying "it's not you then?" as I paid for my purchase. Dare I say if i'd just won 6.5 mill, i'd wouldnt have been at work, that's for sure.

In other news, Aer Lingus and El Al have now signed an interline agreement to faciliate connections at Heathrow.
 
kaitak
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:17 pm

Nice photo of 'ELA on the front page, landing in BOS:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Tony Printezis



A hugely welcome development today from the Dept of Transport:

http://irishaviationresearchinstitut...t-of-transport-launches-irish.html

Do our eyes deceive us? No ... it actually is ... an attempt to develop an aviation policy, something which should have been done years ago (particularly by the last government). It is vital to ensure that we tap every possible avenue of growth. Aviation still has a lot to give and I would definitely encourage those of us interested in aviation policy (hopefully most of us!) to make submissions to this - an email address is given on the attached website (which is also part of an excellent blog - well worth keeping an eye on!)

I think one key point should be co-operation between different departments, particularly enterprise/employment and tourism, to make sure that these three departments (and the DAA) work together when developing new markets. Ideally, I'd like to see all three work together to develop a "proforma" which could be adapted for different markets, i.e. how do you develop trade with emerging markets, how do you increase our visibility in these markets? You cannot say that aviation alone is the answer, but it's a big part of it.

Air freight needs to be looked at again; if the DAA won't do it, find someone who will. As a country which looks to exports as part of its climb out of economic gloom, air freight should be part of that solution.

Environmental issues must be considered; unlike the UK, we need to avoid the silly environmental taxes which do nothing for the environment, but merely act to raise revenues for central govt; we can develop means to lessen the negative effects of aviation on the environment without undermining the effectiveness of aviation as a catalyst for growth.
 
Phen
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:00 pm

A new subliminal advertising campaign by FR?



What next - "Don't fly EI"?  
 
irishair98
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:31 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 54):
If you can get a few hours in there and take advantage of the bar and snacks then yes worth it once in a while.

im in northwest Donegal and its a pain in the ass getting to DUB could i book lounge access at Check in with EI ?
Dún Na Ngall Abú!
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:59 am

Quoting irishair98 (Reply 62):

im in northwest Donegal and its a pain in the ass getting to DUB could i book lounge access at Check in with EI ?

I think you can walk in and pay for it at the lounge desk if I am not mistaken.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
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OA260
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:56 am

Quoting irishair98 (Reply 62):

Yes you can pay at the lounge reception.

----

Good news for Waterford !

Regional carrier Flybe is to launch a new service between Waterford and Manchester from May 22.

Flights will depart Manchester at 1150 on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, arriving into Waterford at 1310, with the return leg leaving the Irish city at 1335 and landing back into Manchester at 1450.

An additional Sunday service will depart one hour earlier in both directions.

The Waterford-Manchester route had been served by Aer Arann under its Aer Lingus Regional franchise agreement up until this January, when the carrier withdrew from its base at Waterford (see online news November 7, 2012).

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...nounces-waterford-manchester-route
 
EIDL
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:30 pm

Very good news for WAT, even if it starts quite late in the season. Is there any indication of whether it's seasonal or not?

They really need to recover a LON flight, to any of the original 5 airports (e.g. not OXF/SEN), to guarantee the airport's survival though.
 
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AmricanShamrok
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:45 pm

Quoting EIDL (Reply 65):

Just looking at CAA traffic figures for SEN and the WAT-SEN route carried around 30,000 passengers in 2012; just 6,000 less than DUB-SEN (operated at a substantially higher frequency) so there must be a good market, as you point out, for WAT-LON. My question is, why not SEN?
 
EIDL
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:21 pm

SEN had significantly lower pax than LTN had, from what I've heard. Slightly more awkward location and very little chance of connecting traffic.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:55 pm

SEN is probably still finding it difficult to convince London and the rest of the South East that it's a suitable alternative, it's only been about a year since it really hit the headlines as London's newest airport and it's going to take a while for it to build its profile. If the task of raising its profile in London is an uphill battle then it must be like climbing Kilimanjaro to get that message across to Waterford and Dublin.

LTN was well established and perfectly located, there's plenty of Irish around the west and north of London so it was right on their doorstep. The east end of London has been really popular with Irish in the past few years, Cara magazine even did a piece on it last year but it may never be enough for SEN to become one of the big London airports for people travelling to Ireland, it's location and poor transport links let it down. It'll be interesting to see if the DUB-SEN schedule changes have any impact, it's now focused on Dublin originating passengers so may have a chance. I'd be surprised to see it dropped for winter but next summer might be in doubt.

Congratulations to WAT on regaining that MAN link. There's proven demand for a London route so it must be around the corner, maybe it's just a matter of sorting out a suitable schedule for LTN.
 
tonystan
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:28 pm

I ended up in SEN in January following a diversion on an AGP-LCY flight because of the snow. I was trying to get to my other halfs place in South London and I have to admit, SEN is not a suitable alternative to the greater London area. Ideal for east London and parts of central but for the rest I just don't believe the rail service (although brilliantly located by the terminal) is fast enough!!!!!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
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aerdingus
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:37 pm

The Urbus link between Blanchardstown/Castleknock to DUB/Swords has ceased since 1/3/13. Very sad, it was a great link between D15 & the airport, without having to go through town on Dublin Bus. They even got me hat back when I left it on the bus! I really thought they had a little niche service there, but obviously the recession is still hitting businesses hard. I took me last trip with them on 28/2/13, close enough!

Best of luck to all the staff.

http://urbus.ie/

    
A306 A313 A319 A320 A321 A333 A346 A359 ATR42 ATR72 B734 B737 B738 B744 B772 B789 C152 MD80 RJ85 S340
 
kaitak
Topic Author
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:43 pm

Aer Lingus figures (traffic) were marginally down - just by 1.5% - on last year, a fact put down to the leap year (last Feb having one extra day).

Any further updates on the 757 reports?
 
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OA260
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:18 pm

Quoting shamrock350 (Reply 68):
SEN is probably still finding it difficult to convince London and the rest of the South East that it's a suitable alternative

Yes very true . Its excellent for areas such as Stratford/Olympic Village and Central parts of London but for West London and down to Surrey its a long way often with three trains.

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 70):
The Urbus link between Blanchardstown/Castleknock to DUB/Swords has ceased since 1/3/13. Very sad, it was a great link between D15 & the airport

Sign of the times. Some survive others dont. The decline has effected numerous Airport services with cuts to schedules and a rise in fares.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:15 pm

Wizzair pulling out of Cork from April/May with three routes dropped:

Katowice-Cork
Poznan-Cork
Gdansk-Cork

Seems Ryanair have done the job they set out to do. Now you have to wonder how long they remain on the routes.
 
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OA260
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:40 pm

Quoting shamrock350 (Reply 73):
Wizzair pulling out of Cork from April/May with three routes dropped:

Was only a matter of time. There is only so much capacity it can sustain from ORK .

Still with a record number of seats on offer to other destinations this Summer from ORK its a case of you win some you loose some.

----

On a positive note the new BFS-SZG flights for Winter 2013 are now on sale with Jet2.
 
Rufusisgod
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:02 pm

Evening,

Did Minoan Air start their Oxford service today? i see it listed on the dublin aiport website.
 
JAmie2k9
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:35 am

AA will be operating DUB-JFK 4 weekly in winter effective 27 October.

Aer Lingus Feb traffic very good considering capacity down 9.7% (SH) and 3.4% (LH) because of one less day and Belfast route changes. LF also increased.
 
Aer Lingus
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:06 am

Metroliner accident at DUB this morning. Looks like nose gear failed.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/03/07/meanwhile-at-dublin-airport-16/

[Edited 2013-03-07 01:12:54]
 
EIDAA
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:11 am

It seems there was an incident at DUB within the last 30 minutes. Photos on broadsheet.ie show what appears to be a Metroliner (?) with a collapsed nose gear. Various aircraft in the holds and likely diverting.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/03/07/meanwhile-at-dublin-airport-16/
Most Flown:- G-BUVA (20 Flights), EI-DEB (12 Flights), EI-JFK (11 Flights)
 
Aer Lingus
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:17 am

EI124, EI151 diverting to SNN along with two FR flights from EDI and BHX. It looks like various a/c are now intitiating approaches to Runway 16.
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:18 am

Quoting EIDAA (Reply 78):
Various aircraft in the holds and likely diverting.

I think they are opening runway 16 now.

Has it been confirmed a metroliner? Operator?
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:23 am

Quoting Aer Lingus (Reply 79):
EI124, EI151 diverting to SNN along with two FR flights from EDI and BHX. It looks like various a/c are now intitiating approaches to Runway 16.

Looks like those flights ran out of time and had to divert. A steady flow of arrivals now heading for 16 on flightradar.
 
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OA260
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:32 am

Bound to have an effect on all flights today .
 
EIDAA
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:40 am

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 80):
Has it been confirmed a metroliner? Operator?

Looks like Binair's D-CAVA to me, which has been to DUB before.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nik Deblauwe

Most Flown:- G-BUVA (20 Flights), EI-DEB (12 Flights), EI-JFK (11 Flights)
 
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anfromme
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:40 am

Some news about the UK Competition Commission's investigation of Ryanair's near 30% share in Aer Lingus. Not a big news item, so I'm putting it into this thread rather than opening a new one.
Britain's Competition Commission has announced that - with the EU Commission's investigation of the proposed takeover now over - it has resumed its investigation into Ryanair's current share in EI. Findings will be published by July 11th. The authority has the power to order FR to sell its stake in EI.
(Source)
42
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:59 am

 
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OA260
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:40 pm

I think this was already mentioned in the previous thread but EI is rumoured to be close to the B757 deal to use on SNN-BOS/JFK which will then free up the A330 for YYZ and SFO. Would be great to see if that happens.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:58 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 86):

I think this was already mentioned in the previous thread but EI is rumoured to be close to the B757 deal to use on SNN-BOS/JFK which will then free up the A330 for YYZ and SFO. Would be great to see if that happens.

It does seem to be gathering more momentum and doesn't just seem like wishful thinking/rumours.

http://www.ittn.ie/bulletins/aer-lin...pand-flights/#.UTiaFEAKPWI.twitter

The next A319s should be appearing soon and of course there's the Virgin Atlantic 'Red' aircraft hopping over the Irish sea at the end of the month.
 
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aerdingus
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:11 pm

Quoting EIDAA (Reply 83):
Looks like Binair's D-CAVA to me, which has been to DUB before.

Binair...kind of appropriate name...  

It does seem to be gathering more momentum and doesn't just seem like wishful thinking/rumours.

http://www.ittn.ie/bulletins/aer-lin...pand-flights/#.UTiaFEAKPWI.twitter
[/quote]

I really hope they come with winglets  
A306 A313 A319 A320 A321 A333 A346 A359 ATR42 ATR72 B734 B737 B738 B744 B772 B789 C152 MD80 RJ85 S340
 
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anfromme
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:25 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 86):
I think this was already mentioned in the previous thread but EI is rumoured to be close to the B757 deal to use on SNN-BOS/JFK which will then free up the A330 for YYZ and SFO. Would be great to see if that happens.

Would be interesting indeed. Any word on whether the 757s would be limited to SNN only, or if there'd be any chance of some transatlantic routes from ORK as well?

A 4-year lease seems a good start - during that time they can see how the routes and plane sizes work for them, and then they can decide whether to buy/lease A321neo or 737-9MAX.
42
 
eirbus06
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:12 pm

EI715 currently diverting to SNN after circling ORK. Any idea's?
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting eirbus06 (Reply 90):
EI715 currently diverting to SNN after circling ORK. Any idea's?

Low visibility being the reason reported on Twitter.
 
f1eddie
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:58 pm

Anyone on here have any idea when the WIFI will be activated on EI. Im flying out to MCO on Tue to hour build... Cant wait.
Flown on EI, FR, BMI, TG, PG, FD, JQ, DJ, LA, NZ, SQ, DL, LX, LH
 
EIBoston
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:44 pm

Quoting f1eddie (Reply 92):
Anyone on here have any idea when the WIFI will be activated on EI. Im flying out to MCO on Tue to hour build... Cant wait.

May 2013 is the start date with the A330 fleet. I think the widebody fleet is been configured with the infrastructure to support this currently.(last 2 330's are in maintenance now).
 
eicvd
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:11 pm

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 88):
I really hope they come with winglets

100% certain they will.
COYBIB
 
styles9002
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:39 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 71):
Aer Lingus figures (traffic) were marginally down - just by 1.5% - on last year, a fact put down to the leap year (last Feb having one extra day)


Load factor is not a good measure to judge how well or poorly an airline is doing as it gives no indication of how profitable the carrier is at transporting its passengers and I think is better to look at the RASM. EI could have had a higher RASM in Feb 2013 than Feb 2012 and thus been more profitable despite having a lower load factor.
It is what it is.
 
tonymctigue
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:26 am

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 88):
It does seem to be gathering more momentum and doesn't just seem like wishful thinking/rumours.

It certainly does seem to be gathering momentum. Still no word on whether this will see a return of year round EI transatlantic services from SNN. Hopefully this comes off as it is clearly the besy way forward for EI transatlantic services from SNN as well as opening up other possible thinner long haul routes from DUB.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 89):
Would be interesting indeed. Any word on whether the 757s would be limited to SNN only, or if there'd be any chance of some transatlantic routes from ORK as well?

I very much doubt it. EI will be unwilling to further split the market even further. The current capacity on transatlantic routes from SNN seems to be a perfect fit to while at the same time, avoiding the scenario of EI's SNN services competing with their own DUB services to the detriment of their yield. However, throwing ORK into the mix as well will change everything and it is hard to imagine that there is enough demand to offer transatlantic services from all three. EI will also be reluctant to withdraw services from SNN and move the whole operation to ORK as in spite of everything, SNN has the history and has proven that certain targeted transatlantic flights are sustainable and can be profitable provided the right aircraft and frequencies can be put in place. ORK has no such history and is therefore is a huge gamble for EI.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
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OA260
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:00 am

I guess a fair reward for a job that has been quite hard?

Aer Lingus chief executive Christoph Mueller saw his combined pay, bonus and pension rise by 4 per cent to almost €1.3 million last year.

According to the airline's annual report, Mr Mueller's basic salary was unchanged at some €475,000, while his bonus rose to €647,000, the company's pension contribution on his behalf was some €119,000 and other benefits amounted to pre-tax profit to €40.6 million, roughly half the level of 2011.



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2013/0308/breaking10.html
 
Phen
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:07 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 97):
I guess a fair reward for a job that has been quite hard?

He has s tough job and has clearly been leading EI in the right direction so he does deserve to be rewarded. The amount however is large but I suppose thats par for the course these days.
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Irish 3/13: Winging It ...

Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:12 am

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 96):

The current rumours seem to suggest the fleet will be deployed
SNN-JFK
SNN-BOS
DUB-YYZ

DUB-SFO is the speculated use for The freed up A330 capacity.

I imagine the SNN services would operate between 10 and 14 weekly, they might need just a little slack in the schedule to operate a reliable timetable. Again, I'm not sure if YYZ would stay daily year round, maybe 4-6 weekly. I suppose some of it depends on what AC does with their seasonal service. Could they leave the Irish market altogether, or maybe send "Rouge" to DUB and leave business traffic to EI or withdraw entirely?

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