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Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1): Sounds similar to KL and AF. Its like the beautiful women (BA and KL) that married the fat ugly slobs (IB and AF). |
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2): Anyone care to try and explain what they were playing at when they made that decision? |
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2): |
Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 4): Basically I think BA were very late in getting married , should have really hitched up with KLM earlier on |
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2): It is similar. Somehow, though, I feel more sorry for KL than BA. Not sure how accurate my impression is, and it's only an impression - I'm no expert, but it seems that KL is probably at more risk than BA in terms of maintaining their identity and product. |
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2): I have never understood even slightly why on earth they thought it was a good idea to join with IB. My immediate reaction when I heard it was happening was to question why the hell they did it, because there was little obvious reason. |
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 6): Secondly, Iberia is the leading carrier between Europe and the South Atlantic. Allegedly, only 8 of IB's 24 long-haul routes are profitable. Although I'm not exactly sure *which* ones those are, I would not be surprised if the majority of those hail from Latin America. |
Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 4): But all was not lost as the ugly girl came with benefits, her folks owned a lovely new home in Madrid, and she had relatives in South America.. |
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1): Sounds similar to KL and AF. Its like the beautiful women (BA and KL) that married the fat ugly slobs (IB and AF). |
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9): The problem is that BA, KL and LH (and actually LX as well) serve the same markets (in general). That's why KL was never a serious option for LH and that's why BA and KL failed twice to agree upon a partnership. Both KL and BA are doomed with the large airlines from southern Europe -> AZ, IB and AF. From which I think AF has the least worst performance. Without any doubt we can't prevent take overs (aka merger) such as the ones in the US in the last decades. They have to occur in Europe too. Simply an economy of scale to protect against the power of FR and U2 who have gained a huge market share in southern Europe. I think there will be no space left for an individual operating carrier of the size LX, IB, KL, TP, AZ, OA etc. |
Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 3): If you go back three years ago, BA had no scope for growth at LHR and had to look elsewhere and Iberia had a complementary route network. At the time, it was not expected that the Eurozone crisis would be so bad and at least Spain seems to have got through the worst of it with better than expected debt/GDP figures recently. |
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 6): However, I think it all really boils down to macro factors, which all European network airlines are suffering from. The Spanish and Eurozone economic crisis have impacted all European carriers. |
Quoting PDPsol (Reply 8): The IB acquisition had less to do with Spain and more to do with Latin America and the key markets in the region, especially MEX, GRU, EZE, BOG, GIG, LIM, SCL. |
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9): Without any doubt we can't prevent take overs (aka merger) such as the ones in the US in the last decades. They have to occur in Europe too. Simply an economy of scale to protect against the power of FR and U2 who have gained a huge market share in southern Europe. I think there will be no space left for an individual operating carrier of the size LX, IB, KL, TP, AZ, OA etc. Only four or five big airlines will exist in Europe in 2020. No room for nationality or whatsoever. We are talking about loads of Euros and not about the national flag on a tale. |
Quoting airbazar (Reply 11): In addition, IB's problems are cost related, not market related. Their coverage of Latin America, a fast growing market, and brand awareness in that market is second to none. Their MAD hub is vastly superior to LHR and is very well positioned as a TATL and intercontinental hub. If/when IAG can get IB's costs to come down, this company will be very strong. The business case to merge BA and IB is very strong, IF Iberia can get its costs under control. |
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2): It is similar. Somehow, though, I feel more sorry for KL than BA. Not sure how accurate my impression is, and it's only an impression - I'm no expert, but it seems that KL is probably at more risk than BA in terms of maintaining their identity and product. |
Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 4): |
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 17): I'm guessing the great KL product will be dragged down badly in the future. |
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1): Sounds similar to KL and AF. Its like the beautiful women (BA and KL) that married the fat ugly slobs (IB and AF). |
Quoting TheAviator380 (Reply 22): I recently flown on BA (DEL-LHR) 777-200. Very average product to me, honestly. |
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 6): Airport-wise, MAD is a vastly superior airport to transfer through (moreso than LHR). In contrast, CDG is a nightmare (compared to AMS). So there are some flip-flops there. |
Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 28): As for BA, I have read and heard pretty nasty things about their purchase of IB, mostly they are trying to move the South America traffic towards the UK instead of letting it go through MAD, which both culturally and practically makes little sense. Instead of helping IB develop its brand and hub, they are sucking the blood out of it. |
Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 28): An example is the shuttle service that exists between AMS and CDG: hourly flights. Is LHR MAD anywhere near this? |
Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 28): AF is going through rough years but it also has had it good ones. KL voluntarily joined AF after giving it a very long thought, and before that they had given an even longer thought at joining BA, and they chose. KL needed AF to get better access to a large market, one can think that they are much better off with AF than without, having now critical size not only for passenger access but also for aircraft and engine purchases and many other synergies. On top of it the AF management was bright enough to leave a lot of autonomy to KL, thus sparing the pride of its employees and more generally the Dutch. People can claim all they want that KL married an ugly girl, in my view it was and still is a very beneficial move for both. |
Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 19): All legacy European Airlines should merge with LH, leaving only LH and Ryanair. |
Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 30): BA and IB have their own management, who have to decide what is best for each carrier. Yes, ultimately both have to operate within the parameters set out by the parent company, but it is for each company to decide how to achieve the goals. |
Quoting 1400mph (Reply 35): One thing to ponder... When LH group released their results the share price tanked. When AF-KLM released their results the share price tanked. When IAG released their results the share price went up 8%. As is always the case with the airline industry its more about reading between the lines. It's as good as it's going to get for LH group from here on in but their market is only going to get tougher. Air France-KLM are in one hell of a mess. |
Quoting babybus (Reply 36): I f there were money in them there south american routes BA would be trying to operate those routes themselves. |
Quoting babybus (Reply 36): IB is a dreadful airline but to be honest BA isn't exactly leading the world in terms of in-flight service these days either. |
Quoting Azure (Reply 37): AFKL share price : roughly + 100 % in 1 year |
Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 30): BA and IB are now jointly located in T5 at LHR, with IB operating most of the flights to MAD |
Quoting Azure (Reply 34): IAG was not created with the fiscal year 2012 in mind but with a long term perspective ! |
Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 28): As for BA, I have read and heard pretty nasty things about their purchase of IB |
Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 28): An example is the shuttle service that exists between AMS and CDG: hourly flights. Is LHR MAD anywhere near this? |
Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 31): LHR-MAD has 13 flights a day. |
Quoting panamair (Reply 12): Geographically speaking, MAD is only well-positioned for Europe-Latin America flows; LHR is a superior hub for North America-Europe traffic flows... |
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 41): BA - KLMwould have been heavenly. |
Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 23): On the other hand, I've flown about 50 times across the Atlantic on IB (Business and Economy, and quite a few short haul flights too) and my overall experience has always been satisfactory. |
Quoting 1400mph (Reply 38): The market cap for an airline the size of AFKL is abismal by any standards. |
Quoting jumpjets (Reply 39): Quoting Azure (Reply 34): IAG was not created with the fiscal year 2012 in mind but with a long term perspective ! Well said, concise and accurate. |
Quoting Azure (Reply 45): AFKL market caps is not even worth the price of their 6 A380s, which does not mean this airline is a mess as you previously wrote. |
Quoting Azure (Reply 34): IAG was not created with the fiscal year 2012 in mind but with a long term perpective ! |