Latam (LAN & TAM) Chooses Oneworld

IrishAyes · Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:24 pm

Quoting mvecchi4 (Reply 43):
Hello IrishAyes,

Not sure what you mean right there when PTY's traffic is around 6million and CCS's is around 10million.

Don't mean to be rude but IMHO I don't think Caracas qualifies as ¨tiny¨ being the 8th(ish) busiest airport in South America.

Hola Miguel,

I'm sorry for the confusion, I meant to say that VZ and PTY are weak spot's in LATAM's network, not weak spots for air service in general. As I mentioned, neither LAN nor TAM fly into Panama City, and neither of them are in the top 8 largest carriers serving CCS. (4.2

Quoting mvecchi4 (Reply 43):
OneWorld is very strong in CCS with AA and LA having heavy presence in the market (int'l), also IB is doing pretty good as far as I know. *A presence is heralded by AV, TA and CM with a pinch of LH.

JJ has a single redeye to GRU I believe.

Unfortunately, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point. The sad reality is that none of the major three alliances are very strong in Caracas at all. For this week, according to Innovata, 65.9% of all seats into CCS are on unaligned carriers. Star offers the largest at 15.3%, followed by OneWorld at 10.7%, and trailed by SkyTeam with 8.1%.

Measured on a frequency basis, the numbers grow even smaller. Star offers 218 weekly frequencies into CCS (11.8%) followed by OneWorld with 116 (6.4%) and last with SkyTeam offering 76 (4.2%). Unaligned carriers offer 1,403 weekly frequencies, comprising of 77.6% of overall flights.

mvecchi4 · Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:37 pm

Hi,

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 50):
I'm sorry for the confusion, I meant to say that VZ and PTY are weak spot's in LATAM's network, not weak spots for air service in general. As I mentioned, neither LAN nor TAM fly into Panama City, and neither of them are in the top 8 largest carriers serving CCS.

Gotcha. And I agree on that!.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 50):
Unfortunately, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point. The sad reality is that none of the major three alliances are very strong in Caracas at all. For this week, according to Innovata, 65.9% of all seats into CCS are on unaligned carriers. Star offers the largest at 15.3%, followed by OneWorld at 10.7%, and trailed by SkyTeam with 8.1%.

Measured on a frequency basis, the numbers grow even smaller. Star offers 218 weekly frequencies into CCS (11.8%) followed by OneWorld with 116 (6.4%) and last with SkyTeam offering 76 (4.2%). Unaligned carriers offer 1,403 weekly frequencies, comprising of 77.6% of overall flights.

You got me there. If you have the data it's like my old Six Sigma instructor used to say "In god I trust, all others bring data".

I guess you're absolutely right, having AV, TA and CM (along with P5) with high frequencies (and as for seats, I've seen AV use an A330 in the CCS-BOG segment which is 2hr flight).

Anyways, thanks for clarifying. This data is gold to me!

Regards,

MV

descl · Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:42 pm

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 46):
I think someone at LATAM knows you (and the region in general) have limited options and they are smiling all the way to the bank. Good for LATAM not so good for consumers.

But where are the others? LH, BA, KL?

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 47):
It is very positive for consumers that LAN combined with TAM to create LATAM Airlines. Both carriers have highly complementary networks that offer consumers more choices and flexibility to travel within South America, as well as long-haul destinations, (LAN and TAM only overlap on four regional routes within South America). As one airline group, both carriers will be able to open new routes that neither one could have opened before as a stand alone carrier. LATAM will also be able to compete effectively with other major international carriers that fly to South America.

As a chilean consumer I can tell that the only routes where you find lower prices are the ones to Brazil, nothing else. Before the merge, TAM was allways the cheapest option to Europe, but thats not the case anymore; so I dont care if LATAM will be able to compete with the other airlines, as long as we consumers see a decrease in the prices (or at least not a rise as is the case today).

SCL767 · Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:18 pm

Quoting Descl (Reply 52):
But where are the others? LH, BA, KL?

KL would only decrease yields on AF's CDG-SCL service; I guess that's why they won't launch AMS-SCL. Also, what a/c can LH deploy on a hypothetical FRA-SCL service? Would it be economical for LH? Both BA and LAN have shown an interest in launching SCL-LHR; LAN will be receiving 9 more B-787-8s by the end of 2014.

Quoting Descl (Reply 52):
Before the merge, TAM was allways the cheapest option to Europe, but thats not the case anymore;

Perhaps it's due to the fact that since LAN has implemented code-shares on TAM's flights to Europe via GRU and GIG enabling seamless connections for pax originating from destinations such as SCL, TAM's flights to Europe are experiencing strong bookings. That's great news for LATAM since TAM is now able to compete more effectively with the other EU carriers that operate into GRU and GIG. You can always fly on IB and connect via MAD or fly AF and connect via CDG.

LH506 · Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:44 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 53):
Quoting Descl (Reply 52):
Before the merge, TAM was allways the cheapest option to Europe, but thats not the case anymore;

Perhaps it's due to the fact that since LAN has implemented code-shares on TAM's flights to Europe via GRU and GIG enabling seamless connections for pax originating from destinations such as SCL, TAM's flights to Europe are experiencing strong bookings. That's great news for LATAM since TAM is now able to compete more effectively with the other EU carriers that operate into GRU and GIG. You can always fly on IB and connect via MAD or fly AF and connect via CDG.

I guess this is the result of limited competition after JJ and LAN merged.

IrishAyes · Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:16 pm

Quoting mvecchi4 (Reply 51):
You got me there. If you have the data it's like my old Six Sigma instructor used to say "In god I trust, all others bring data".

I guess you're absolutely right, having AV, TA and CM (along with P5) with high frequencies (and as for seats, I've seen AV use an A330 in the CCS-BOG segment which is 2hr flight).

Anyways, thanks for clarifying. This data is gold to me!

Regards,

MV

No problem!

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 53):
KL would only decrease yields on AF's CDG-SCL service; I guess that's why they won't launch AMS-SCL.

I'm skeptical about this assertion. People assumed similar things would happen when AF launched CDGLIM in addition to KL's existing AMSLIM service. While Lima is a larger city than Santiago, passenger volumes in Chile are growing at a HUGE rate.

aerorobnz · Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:09 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 49):
Not to mention that LATAM Airlines S.A. has over 64 wide-body a/c on order...

The whole continent is booming , it's a good time to be LATAM & AV. AV/TA can provide almost the same coverage currently as LA, and the service on AV/TA is on a par with LA and better than JJ.

Ultimately I don't think Star should be too worried, just that they will have to expand along with their Star Affiliates instead of TAM. The same feed cities will still eventually be GRU/GIG once 06 is fully integrated into Star. I suspect it will be fast tracked now. As an airline I always preferred Avianca to TAM anyway. Once carriers like TK expand further in South America there will be enough options to keep most happy.

reffado · Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:18 pm

Regionally speaking, O6 does offer better service than JJ (inside Brazil). But they still have a lot of work to do if they want to compete with LATAM in destinations such as SCL and EZE.

cpqi · Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:06 pm

Quoting reffado (Reply 57):
O6 does offer better service than JJ (inside Brazil)

I'm sorry but I strongly disagree. From route choice to check in to baggage efficiency to the smile and service quality in my experience JJ beats Avianca hands down.

SCL767 · Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:13 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 55):
I'm skeptical about this assertion. People assumed similar things would happen when AF launched CDGLIM in addition to KL's existing AMSLIM service.

And when AF resumed CDG-LIM, AF quickly reduced frequency on the CDG-LIM route to 3x weekly and will only operate the route 5x weekly on a seasonal basis. It is also important to note that the distance between LIM and both AMS and CDG is shorter than the distance between SCL and both AMS and CDG:

AMS-LIM 5676 nm
AMS-SCL 6470 nm
CDG-LIM 5544 nm
CDG-SCL 6291 nm

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 56):
AV/TA can provide almost the same coverage currently as LA,

AV-TA currently serve only one destination in Chile and only one destination in Argentina. These are very important markets. The Chilean domestic market is the fastest growing domestic market in Latin America.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 56):
Ultimately I don't think Star should be too worried, just that they will have to expand along with their Star Affiliates instead of TAM. The same feed cities will still eventually be GRU/GIG once 06 is fully integrated into Star.

O6 will face significant obstacles in expanding its operations from certain airports in Brazil, including CGH, SDU, GRU. Also, LATAM has a size-able long-haul network; whereas AV currently operates long-haul flights only from Colombia. This is why AV desperately needs TAP. It will be interesting to see how AV-TA competes with LATAM and other carriers on long-haul routes between South America and both North America and Europe, especially from GRU i.e. GRU-JFK, GRU-MIA, GRU-CDG, GRU-FRA, GRU-LHR, etc.

Quoting reffado (Reply 57):
But they still have a lot of work to do if they want to compete with LATAM in destinations such as SCL and EZE.

Under the current bilateral between Argentina and Brazil, O6 will have issues opening routes into Argentina...In Chile (as well as in Perú) they have to deal with LAN's low-cost model which offers pax very low fares since LAN significantly reduced its operating costs years ago on various domestic and short-haul flights. We've already seen TA reduce frequency on the LIM-SCL route to 7x weekly and the LIM-GRU route to 7x weekly. Whereas LAN operates SCL-LIM 8x daily and LA/JJ will soon increase frequency on the LIM-GRU route to 17x weekly.

[Edited 2013-03-13 14:18:13]

reffado · Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:37 pm

Quoting cpqi (Reply 58):

Just goes to show that the experience may vary! I flew O6 only about 4 legs, but the flights were really comfy. The a/c were in better shape than JJ's, had IFE, and the meals were nice. Crew service was on par, I'd say.

SKY1 · Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:45 am

Quoting offloaded (Reply 39):
Does this mean BA, sorry I mean IAG, can get rid of IB now???

Is IB the one who should get rid of BA

teme82 · Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:57 am

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 61):
Is IB the one who should get rid of BA

Or IB to go belly up and start again

ETinCaribe · Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:04 pm

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 56):
Ultimately I don't think Star should be too worried, just that they will have to expand along with their Star Affiliates instead of TAM.

Yes, but that will take time. in the meantime, LATAM will do great.

leonardoq · Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:29 pm

Does anyone know about possibilities of a AKL-GRU non-stop with JJ metal?
Or even a GRU-SYD with a stop for refueling in AKL? I would love to see JJ planes in oceania!

prchan · Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:48 pm

GRU-AKL on JJ metal will take a long time (if ever) to start. JJ has chosen to expand their international routes on destinations already served.
With LATAM and LA's SCL-AKL-SYD flight, JJ will probably fly its passengers through SCL. This is the same way LA is flying some of their passengers to Europe through GRU, on JJ metal.

SCL767 · Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:03 pm

Quoting prchan (Reply 65):
GRU-AKL on JJ metal will take a long time (if ever) to start. JJ has chosen to expand their international routes on destinations already served.
With LATAM and LA's SCL-AKL-SYD flight, JJ will probably fly its passengers through SCL.

TAM won't be flying to either AKL and/or SYD for the reason you mentioned. SCL is South America's gateway to both AKL and SYD for LATAM. Passengers already have the option of flying GRU-SCL-AKL-SYD, GRU-SCL-SYD, GIG-SCL-AKL-SYD, GIG-SCL-SYD on flights operated by LATAM and code-share flights operated by Qantas.

SKY1 · Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:27 pm

What happened with the TAM's 340-541?

reffado · Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:35 pm

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 67):

They were leased from AC while the first 77W's didn't arrive. They've been parked for a couple of years now, IIRC.

SKY1 · Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:33 pm

With some A345 stored, it should be much cheaper for any carrier re-used once again. It burns more fuel, right ...but with a much lower price for renting or leasing the A345 could have a new oportunity to fly intercontinental ETOPS-free routes within southern hemisphere where on most air routes more than 180' ETOPS are required. Those 340-500 stored are also relatively new.

Gonzalo · Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:08 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 55):
While Lima is a larger city than Santiago, passenger volumes in Chile are growing at a HUGE rate.

And the traffic growth in Chile is a two digits figure for some years already. The difference in total population between LIM ( 8.4 M ) and SCL ( 7.3 M ) is not so big, and I would risk the bet with a lot of confidence saying that Chile has a stronger middle class, that has learned and enjoys to travel outside borders since the '90s, while the Peruvians are still behind in that matter ( although they are doing the things good lately in terms of the macro economy, which finally will benefit the middle class and rises the chances of the people flying away for holidays ).

Quoting realsim (Reply 40):
IB also flies to EZE, MVD, GIG, CCS, BOG, PTY, SJO, GUA, SAL, HAV, SDQ, SJU and MEX in Latin America. Some of these routes are being cut because of Iberia's cost problem, but I'm sure that they will be launched again once the current situation is solved.

With all due respect, you are being optimistic here. Once IB leaves some of this markets, other carriers will make the necessary to fill the gap ( AF is doing the move with MVD already ), and to be honest, I doubt the passengers will be running to the arms of IB when they decide to come back....

Rgds.
G.

SCL767 · Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:11 am

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 69):
With some A345 stored, it should be much cheaper for any carrier re-used once again. It burns more fuel, right ...but with a much lower price for renting or leasing the A345 could have a new oportunity to fly intercontinental ETOPS-free routes within southern hemisphere where on most air routes more than 180' ETOPS are required. Those 340-500 stored are also relatively new.

LATAM is not interested in operating anymore routes with the A-340s and has already begun to phase them out of the fleet. By the end of this year, LATAM's remaining A-340s will be deployed only on one route, the SCL-AKL-SYD route.

leonardoq · Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:41 pm

An interesting flight would be SCL-POA non-stop. It is intriguing why neither JJ or LA have no direct flights on this route... G3 used to do it, but cancelled... not to mention that the flight's timetable was horrible, the flight departed at 12am from POA and returned from SCL at 3 am!

Hope to see LATAM flying that route soon...

SCL767 · Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting leonardoq (Reply 72):
It is intriguing why neither JJ or LA have no direct flights on this route...

If LA/JJ were to operate SCL-POA in the near-term, it would only operate on a seasonal basis; just like the SCL-FLN route. LAN operates SCL-FLN 4x weekly during the high season. LATAM routes pax traveling between SCL and domestic destinations within Brazil such as POA primarily via the GRU hub. LA/JJ currently operate the SCL-GRU route 9x daily and the SCL-GIG route 3x daily.

LA5951 14:30 SCL 18:05 GRU 77W
LA8114 19:35 GRU 21:12 POA A320

LA8433 06:00 POA 07:35 GRU A321
LA5950 09:05 GRU 13:05 SCL 77W

PDPsol · Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:29 am

POA is definitely not just a seasonal destination, but a thriving business center as well, with a population of over 1.5 million. The city is one of Brasil's wealthiest and POA handles over 8 million passengers annually. It is a major metropolis in Brasil. A SCL-POA route could be very successful, indeed.

RAGAZZO777 · Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:15 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 70):
And the traffic growth in Chile is a two digits figure for some years already. The difference in total population between LIM ( 8.4 M ) and SCL ( 7.3 M ) is not so big, and I would risk the bet with a lot of confidence saying that Chile has a stronger middle class, that has learned and enjoys to travel outside borders since the '90s, while the Peruvians are still behind in that matter ( although they are doing the things good lately in terms of the macro economy, which finally will benefit the middle class and rises the chances of the people flying away for holidays ).

First of all, I must say that your English leaves a lot to be desired. Seriously, it took me a while to figure out your post.

In the second place, what do you exactly mean by "Peruvians are still behind in that matter" ? Are you saying that Peruvians don't like travelling overseas for holidays at all ?! Good God !, this is 2013, not 1993 !

Perhaps you should take a look at this article:
http://www.arecoa.com/protagonistas/...-nosotros-cobramos-menos%E2%80%9D/

In that article LAN Perú's CEO explains that the average Peruvian is making more money these days and that the fast-growing Peruvian middle class is one of the reasons for LAN's success within the Peruvian market.

Last but not least, Lima is far larger than Santiago, that's a fact.

SCL767 · Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:15 am

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 75):
In that article LAN Perú's CEO explains that the average Peruvian is making more money these days and that the fast-growing Peruvian middle class is one of the reasons for LAN's success within the Peruvian market.

LAN Perú's CEO is referring primarily to the Peruvian domestic market in the article that you posted. In the article, LAN Perú's CEO clearly states that a main factor in the increase in domestic travel is due to the low fares that LAN offers in that particular market. Similarly, in Chile the low fares that LAN offers, as well as the robust economy, has led to a significant increase in domestic flights. The Chilean domestic market is the fastest growing domestic market in Latin America and is larger than the Peruvian domestic market; even though Perú has a larger population compared to Chile. Chile continues to invest and plans to expand airports through out Chile. Airports such as SCL, CCP, CJC, IQQ, LSC, PMC, PUQ, etc. will expand. LAN Perú is very interested in launching direct services between LIM and cities such as AYP, HUU, JAU, etc. However these airports are very small and cannot handle A-319/A-320 operated flights and they require new terminal buildings ASAP! Also, the longer that Perú takes to build a second runway at LIM is bad news for everyone...

RAGAZZO777 · Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:39 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 76):

I'm sorry, but what does the Chilean domestic market exactly have to do with the Peruvian one ?

airlineaddict · Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:43 am

Will the US government have any concerns with AA and TAM controlling a major portion of the US to Brazil market?

SCL767 · Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:22 am

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 77):
I'm sorry, but what does the Chilean domestic market exactly have to do with the Peruvian one ?

I'm simply responding to the article that you posted which specifically referred to LAN Perú's planned increase in services in the Peruvian domestic market. It may be 2013, but Perú still has a long way to go compared to Chile. Also, during the past few months, have you noticed that LAN bolstered flights from SCL to destinations such as COR, CUN, GIG, GRU, IPC, MIA, MVD, PUJ, etc. for the high season? Oh and LAN decided to increase frequency on the SCL-MAD route instead of the LIM-MAD route and is not dropping FRA as you've previously stated. Also, SCL-LHR is the next long-haul route to Europe from SCL. You clearly underestimate the potential of the Chilean aviation market since LIM is a much larger city than Santiago. The fact of the matter is that more passengers originating from SCL do prefer non-stop flights to intercontinental destinations and more non-stop flights will increase in the future. Hopefully by then LIM will have a second runway...

Gonzalo · Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:44 am

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 75):
First of all, I must say that your English leaves a lot to be desired. Seriously, it took me a while to figure out your post.

Really ?? Oh thank you very much for the advice !! I will run to my Dictionary and my Google translator to learn more, and I will try to make the things easier for you next time

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 76):
such as SCL, CCP, CJC, IQQ, LSC, PMC, PUQ, etc. will expand.

You forgot ANF, where there is work in progress as we speak. The expansion includes new lounges and a fourth bridge.

Rgds.
G.

SCL767 · Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:02 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 80):
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 76):
such as SCL, CCP, CJC, IQQ, LSC, PMC, PUQ, etc. will expand.

You forgot ANF, where there is work in progress as we speak. The expansion includes new lounges and a fourth bridge.

Also, CPO, ZAL and ZCO will be expanded. Chile would also like to expand IPC to include a taxi-way. LAN has decided to slash the LIM-IPC route and will increase frequency on the SCL-IPC route due to the fact that it's a high yielding route via SCL and cargo demand from LIM to IPC is weak compared to the demand from mainland Chile.

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