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factsonly
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Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:15 pm

Following frequent one-off test flights, as well as a series of regular short-haul pax. flights, Delta and KLM are to commence regular commercial operations using bio-fuel (mixed with A1) on weekly long-haul flights between JFK - Amsterdam for a six month period.

This latest venture results from a cooperation between the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey (Terminal 4), Schiphol Airport and DL/KL.

www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl (in dutch)
 
davescj
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:42 pm

I remember seeing a bio fuel experiement with CO premerger a few years back. The Houston newspaper had an article about it. I think a 737 using bio fuel was the way the experiement worked. I don't remember if jetfuel was mixed with the bio fuel or not.

Dave
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
SASMD82
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:44 pm

I just placed a similar reaction on luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nl-NL/Article.cms/Airlines/Wereldnatuurfonds_prijst_KLM_om_gebruik_biobrandstoffen (only in Dutch) but isn't this all PR and has nothing to do with reducing CO2? Planting extra trees in stead of just removing them is the only way to reduce the amount of CO2 on earth. Also stop flying with MD-11 and B 747 as these planes are real fuel guzzlers.....
 
JU068
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:30 pm

I read somewhere that bio-fuel is still quite expensive, would they really save money by introducing it on more flights? Or is it just to reduce CO2 emissions?
 
SASMD82
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:50 pm

Quoting JU068 (Reply 3):
Or is it just to reduce CO2 emissions?

No, not at all. The only reason I can come up with is that these are not ancient raw materials but food processed to fuel.
 
scutfarcus
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:54 pm

Anyone got an english language source for this? I'm finding things from 2011, but nothing recent!
 
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cjg225
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:33 pm

Very interesting.

I worked on a biojet project about a year ago. My project team was working with Northwest Advanced Renewables Alliance and a private company named Gevo. The team leader worked at 9E for many years and had contacts at DL. When we talked to DL about the supply chain of aviation fuels, we got the sense from the DL folks that DL was too conservative to dive into biojet yet. At the time, UA / CO and AS were the early-adopters from the USA (in the private sector; the military is also big into this).

Now, several European airlines were also running test flights with biojet at the time. Is this more of KLM than DL and DL is just getting lumped in because of its relationship with KLM? Or is DL really making strides in this area?

Quoting JU068 (Reply 3):
I read somewhere that bio-fuel is still quite expensive, would they really save money by introducing it on more flights? Or is it just to reduce CO2 emissions?

It's still very expensive because there are no economies of scale yet. There is much research being done across the globe in the biojet arena, and no one really has the "it" process yet. There are many different processes being developed. The amounts that can be produced right now by a few companies would be enough to satisfy the fuel expenditure of a handful of aircraft for a year at most. The company with which we were working was only able to produce enough fuel for a full flight at this time last year. That is how young a lot of these processes are.

Someone is going to have to go through the wall first and get bloodied, paying a lot of money. The US military could be that first adopter, but... with sequestration, that may not happen. Even without sequestration, the politicians of our country nixed it because, "HOW DARE YOU SPEND SO MUCH ON FUEL!?!?!?!" Let's disregard the fact that there are very, very, very good reasons to adopt this technology now, even though it costs a lot. Most new technologies do cost a lot. Look at DVD players or HDTVs. Everyone remember how expensive they were even 10 years ago? They're a dime a dozen now.
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
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CaptSkibi
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:47 am

English language version.

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 6):
Is this more of KLM than DL and DL is just getting lumped in because of its relationship with KLM? Or is DL really making strides in this area?

I'm guessing that DL is involved because it is likely KLM's ground handler in JFK. DL would need to know to use the bio-fuel blend on KL 642.
Private Pilot, Airplane Single Engine Land / former frequent flyer with 9 straight years being elite on NW/DL
 
factsonly
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:16 am

According to this article, the cooperation is actually between Boeing and KLM:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-to-optimize-flight-196299721.html
 
factsonly
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:14 am

Perhaps interesting to note that KLM admits that bio-fuel is still 4x more expensive than regular A1, so the airline has approached its largest corporate customers - such as - Philips & Heineken to support these 'green' efforts by linking their names to this biofuel programme.
 
b2319
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:35 am

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 6):
there are very, very, very good reasons to adopt this technology now

Personally, I am not so sure. I am all for bio-fuels if their production does not impinge on arable land.

Some facts:

The worldwide population is increasing.
The wordlwide amout of arable land is decreasing.
Despite widespread adoption elsewhere, organisations such as the EU are extremely reticent regarding the adoption of GM technology.
The calorie intake of the developing world is increasing.
The % of meat in a developing world's person's diet is increasing.
Meat is a relatively inefficient use of land, compared to other food types.

If bio-fuels and the ability to feed a grwoing world can co-exist, then I am all for this.

If not, it's not a difficult decision for me to make which one stays, and which one goes.....

Regards

B-2319
 
SASMD82
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:48 am

Quoting b2319 (Reply 10):
Personally, I am not so sure. I am all for bio-fuels if their production does not impinge on arable land.

Some facts:

The worldwide population is increasing.
The wordlwide amout of arable land is decreasing.
Despite widespread adoption elsewhere, organisations such as the EU are extremely reticent regarding the adoption of GM technology.
The calorie intake of the developing world is increasing.
The % of meat in a developing world's person's diet is increasing.
Meat is a relatively inefficient use of land, compared to other food types.

If bio-fuels and the ability to feed a grwoing world can co-exist, then I am all for this.

If not, it's not a difficult decision for me to make which one stays, and which one goes.....

Regards

B-2319

I agree with you B-2319. Beside getting media attention, I cannot find any other reasons why we should be flying on bio fuel (except that we will finally run out of ancient raw material/oil). A lot of people in Africa, Asia and South America haven't got any food and we convert food into fuel.....

And....like I have stated now for the 3th time: it does not solve the CO2 problem.....
 
MH017
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:42 pm

KL0641/2-08mar13 was operated by PH-BQG...heard the mix was 50/50...
don't throw away tomorrow !
 
factsonly
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:00 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 11):
Beside getting media attention, I cannot find any other reasons why we should be flying on bio fuel (except that we will finally run out of ancient raw material/oil). A lot of people in Africa, Asia and South America haven't got any food and we convert food into fuel.....

And....like I have stated now for the 3th time: it does not solve the CO2 problem.....


SASMD-82 perhaps you need to read the entire Boeing / KLM article linked above. This clearly states.........

''Each flight is being powered in part by sustainable aviation biofuel sourced from used cooking oil. Boeing is at the epicenter of the industry's efforts to develop and commercialize renewable fuel sources that don't compete with food, water or land resources.'''

I believe Boeing's position reflects KLM's position, which is inline with the official Aviation Industry's position as endorsed by IATA, ACI and CANSO!
 
rwessel
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:12 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 3):
Or is it just to reduce CO2 emissions?

It won't reduce the CO2 emissions from the aircraft, but the hope is that the overall amount of CO2 released is reduced. The idea being that most of the Carbon in the fuel was actually extracted from atmospheric CO2 by the growing plants doing photosynthesis. IOW, the hope is that much of the CO2 released into the atmosphere by burning the fuel was just recently pulled from the atmosphere by the growing plants, hence that CO2 is not increasing the total amount in the atmosphere.

The downsides are cost, the use of arable land for fuel production, the water needed to that fuel production, and the amount of energy needed to grow, harvest and process the crop into fuel, and whether or not the energy required comes from carbon emitting sources.

The scenario that the United States military is mainly concerned about is a little different, they care less about CO2 emissions than supply, and would be willing in a crisis to use an expensive *and* CO2 inefficient fuel, rather than have nothing at all. OTOH, they’d be perfectly happy to be green too.
 
davescj
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:08 pm

Quoting b2319 (Reply 10):
Personally, I am not so sure. I am all for bio-fuels if their production does not impinge on arable land.

In the example I used above, the CO flight that was an experiementt, Algae was used to make the bio-fuel. One of the great advantages of algae - you grow it anywhere.

Dave
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
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cjg225
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:25 am

Quoting b2319 (Reply 10):
Personally, I am not so sure. I am all for bio-fuels if their production does not impinge on arable land.

Some facts:

The worldwide population is increasing.
The wordlwide amout of arable land is decreasing.
Despite widespread adoption elsewhere, organisations such as the EU are extremely reticent regarding the adoption of GM technology.
The calorie intake of the developing world is increasing.
The % of meat in a developing world's person's diet is increasing.
Meat is a relatively inefficient use of land, compared to other food types.

If bio-fuels and the ability to feed a grwoing world can co-exist, then I am all for this.

If not, it's not a difficult decision for me to make which one stays, and which one goes.....

Regards

B-2319

I agree with you.

The most promising fuels for both CO2 reduction and for scalability in the future are those that do not use land that is suitable for growing food. The company with which my team was working is developing a fuel that uses woody biomass as feedstock. It'll, ideally, come from existing forested areas in the Pacific Northwest that would be unsuitable for turning into farmland. As another post mentions above, another promising process involves algae as a feedstock, and, like the poster said, growing algae hardly impinges on food farming.

The corn/sugar alcohol processes are basically worse for the environment than just continuing to chug fossil fuels, anyway. That's why so much research the last few years has gone into processes that try to take advantage of unsuitable-for-food land.

Quoting CaptSkibi (Reply 7):

I'm guessing that DL is involved because it is likely KLM's ground handler in JFK. DL would need to know to use the bio-fuel blend on KL 642.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks.

[Edited 2013-03-10 19:26:18]
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
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Aesma
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RE: Delta/KLM Commence Regular Bio-fuel Flights Ex-JFK

Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:03 am

Quoting b2319 (Reply 10):
Despite widespread adoption elsewhere, organisations such as the EU are extremely reticent regarding the adoption of GM technology.

A small proportion of people are against any kind of GMOs here, the same proportion that is against planes and airports anyway. A majority isn't against GMOs in general but GMOs as food, genetically engineered plants for fuel would not be a huge problem. Well, the small proportion I mentioned would probably cause trouble by attacking the fields, so algae are more promising.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams

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