I recently got a brochure produced by Airbus, featuring an up-to-date listing of their product family. Prominent in it is the A318 - with sharklets - indicating they would still produce them in the event of an order. As we all know, historically the A318 (and also the competing 737-600) have not fared well, suffering from their rather heavy airframes resulting from being a shrink of a much larger basic aircraft. I suppose the increase in fuel costs over the last decade hasn't helped either (similar to the A340-500), pushing them into the economic Twilight Zone.
My question is whether there really is a decent business case for the A318/737-600 in any type of market, meaning one where opting for the slightly larger A319 or A320 would not do the airline much better? I have an old ad showing TWA's A318 (they ordered a bunch, along with some A320s, before being absorbed into AA). I think they planned to operate them on low density routes to the west coast (Moline-LAX) etc. Do you think this would have worked out for them? The Airbus brochure gives a range of 3300 nm for the A318 (no weights specified). This is more than a transcon needs, but not enough for most transatlantic routes, unless ditching is an option. I am kicking myself for not riding one of Frontier's, and now amazingly they have gone to the scrapyard, making them sort of special in a way.
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- brightcedars
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RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
Well, a typical business case that seems to work is to run it from LCY to JFK and back as a banker's bus.
Kind of think of it as the new Concorde, not many of them in service, but damn exclusive.
I guess BA will stop running them on that route once it turns unprofitable, just like with Concorde.
Note: It is sad to envisage the A318 as Concorde's heir.
Kind of think of it as the new Concorde, not many of them in service, but damn exclusive.
I guess BA will stop running them on that route once it turns unprofitable, just like with Concorde.
Note: It is sad to envisage the A318 as Concorde's heir.
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
I have flown it a couple of times on PAR-BES, clearly it didn't make sense, but AF/subsidiaries put every type of single aisle plane they have on that route, great to try them all ! It may be that when half empty anyway (which it was, but I always book middle of the day and middle of the week flights) the A318 is more likely to cover the costs of the flight than the A319.
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
Too put it simply, with the exception of premium service offerings like like the aforementioned BA LCY service, there really is no good justification for operating an A318. Why you ask?....
...Because the A318 trip costs are (almost) exactly the same as the A319 and you have fewer seats availble to fill. It is for this reason that Boeing no longer has a list price for the 737-600 and why less than 125 units of the 737-600 and A318, combined, have been built.
(http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/)
| Quoting Aesma (Reply 2): the A318 is more likely to cover the costs of the flight than the A319. |
...Because the A318 trip costs are (almost) exactly the same as the A319 and you have fewer seats availble to fill. It is for this reason that Boeing no longer has a list price for the 737-600 and why less than 125 units of the 737-600 and A318, combined, have been built.
(http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/)
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- planespotting
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RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
| Quoting CF-CPI (Thread starter): I think they planned to operate them on low density routes to the west coast (Moline-LAX) etc |
I hope this route isn't a real example TWA's plan for the future. DSM-LAX maybe ...
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
The 735 sold close to 400 units. As the replacement, it was probably expected by Boeing that the 736 would sell in similar numbers despite the 736 being heavier.
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
| Quoting planespotting (Reply 4): I hope this route isn't a real example TWA's plan for the future. DSM-LAX maybe ... |
My recollection is that a number of secondary midwest cities were slated for these nonstops, which included (no surprise) many of the Ozark stations. Maybe there's a press release available somewhere, or some real TWA experts could fill us in.
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
This is just my opinion but with fuel and the popularity of larger rjs the 318 was just too early. If trends continue I see it as a mainline alternative to a fleet v. Outsourced ERJ or crj . If already certified and a line is up...why not keep it as an option?
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
| Quoting yyz717 (Reply 5): The 735 sold close to 400 units. As the replacement, it was probably expected by Boeing that the 736 would sell in similar numbers despite the 736 being heavier. |
Brent crude wasn't trading at $110/barrel when Boeing racked up sales for 400 735s. First deliveries of 737NGs occurred when Brent was trading at about $15/barrel.
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
| Quoting metjetCEO (Reply 7): This is just my opinion but with fuel and the popularity of larger rjs the 318 was just too early. If trends continue I see it as a mainline alternative to a fleet v. Outsourced ERJ or crj . If already certified and a line is up...why not keep it as an option? |
The large RJs are signficantly cheaper to operate than the A318. They are much lighter. A318 and 737-600 are dead.
A318 OEW is 87,000 LBS
737-600 OEW is 80,200 LBS
VS
CS100 OEW is 73,500 LBS
(717-200 OEW is 70,000 LBS)
ERJ195 OEW is 63,900 LBS
CRJ1000 OEW is 51,300 LBS
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lightsaber
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RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
| Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 9): The large RJs are signficantly cheaper to operate than the A318. |
That sums it up. Now with the CS100/CS300, why would anyone consider the A318/736? There is a reason there is no business case for a MAX/NEO of either. Heck, the business case of the -7MAX/A319NEO is weak. Mostly due to:
| Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 9): A318 OEW is 87,000 LBS 737-600 OEW is 80,200 LBS VS CS100 OEW is 73,500 LBS (717-200 OEW is 70,000 LBS) ERJ195 OEW is 63,900 LBS CRJ1000 OEW is 51,300 LBS |
The A318 and 736 simply carry weight that needs more passengers to pay for. Except for a few long thin routes such as LCY-JFK, there isn't the revenue for the types.
| Quoting metjetCEO (Reply 7): the 318 was just too early. |
It it was any later, the E190/E195 would have still finished it off. B6 had the option of the A318 or the E190, it says something that they chose to add a 2nd fleet type with less range... Any outsourced flying will be with lighter (cheaper) planes.
Each kg of weight adds $500 of costs per decade. So the added 16,300lbm of the A318 over the E195 is $3.7M USD in costs (plus a higher purchase price) every decade. Its probably more actually, I'm just doing 'rule of thumb' accounting.
Lightsaber
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
As a business jet, the 318 makes perfect sense in regard price vs benefit. In airline ops, its obsolete like the 736, BUT i dare to say there is an exception - operating it in a single class high density, on high yielding routes with high load factors (yes they still exist in certain parts of the globe), by airlines that operate other A320 family aircraft.
[Edited 2013-03-13 17:28:03]
[Edited 2013-03-13 17:28:03]
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
Part of the business case may have surrounded certain legal and contractual rules. Back when fuel was less of a cost component, some airlines may have wanted a mainline aircraft with exactly 100 seats so it could be operated with only 2 FAs. Some airlines may have had lower pilot's rates at that aircraft size. Niche need at best but obviously Airbus thought there was some kind of market, enough to justify the probably moderate development costs.
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- Viscount724
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RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
doesn't Westjet have 13 of them 736s in service flying to secondary destinations like Kelowna, Victoria, Thunder Bay, etc from hubs like YVR, YYC and Top
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- Viscount724
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RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
| Quoting YLWbased (Reply 14): doesn't Westjet have 13 of them 736s in service flying to secondary destinations |
Correct. The 736s are also used on most YYZ-LGA-YYZ flights where their new regional operation's Q400s would probably make more sense. They also use the 736s on many other routes when demand is lower. For example their single daily YUL-YYC nonstop is a 736..AC is 3 x daily on that route, mostly E-190s
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- NWAROOSTER
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RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
| Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 3): Too put it simply, with the exception of premium service offerings like like the aforementioned BA LCY service, there really is no good justification for operating an A318. Why you ask?.... |
| Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 9): The large RJs are signficantly cheaper to operate than the A318. They are much lighter. A318 and 737-600 are dead. |
The A318 is simply a shrink of the A320 and A319. It carries extra weight and carries fewer passengers. Things like the center wing box and fuel tank can't be smaller. The landing gear may be lighter, but I don't think that structure that supports it can be made lighter or smaller. The A318 if it was essentially a new design from the ground aircraft, would be a fine aircraft and have some commonality with the A319 and A320. But is not a new design aircraft and its only advantage is its commonality with the A319 and A320 for airlines that already have them or want an A318 for a very specialized use similar to what British Airways uses theirs for.
Otherwise, they are a fuel hog and are uneconomical to fly.
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
| Quoting brightcedars (Reply 1): |
LCY-JFK is not a business case for the A318. In fact it's such an odd route it pretty much shows there isn't a stri g market for the A318. What I'd like to know is how much lower are the block hour costs for the A318 v A319.
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
| Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10): Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 9): The large RJs are signficantly cheaper to operate than the A318. That sums it up. Now with the CS100/CS300, why would anyone consider the A318/736? |
| Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10): It it was any later, the E190/E195 would have still finished it off. |
| Quoting AADC10 (Reply 12): |
| Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15): The 736s are also used on most YYZ-LGA-YYZ flights where their new regional operation's Q400s would probably make more sense. |
Taking these to the lower capacity end, and with the restrictions of LCY still at play...would Embraer's E175G2 definitely come up a winner?
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...year-service-entry-in-2018-383416/
Probable LCY compatibility straight-out-the-box is offset by later availability.
| Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 16): It carries extra weight and carries fewer passengers. |
Was the stillborn ARJ Airbus worked on with the Chinese any lighter?
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
The only scenario I can think of, and it's just a guess
On overwater South Pacific routes like AKL-VLI, AKL-HIR that never generate enough load for a full A320 - being small island nations, but which require EDTO/ETOPS to operate which in general rules out the RJs. The benefit of an A318 over other members of the family is that no loading equipment except a belt loader is necessary (unlike A320)
On overwater South Pacific routes like AKL-VLI, AKL-HIR that never generate enough load for a full A320 - being small island nations, but which require EDTO/ETOPS to operate which in general rules out the RJs. The benefit of an A318 over other members of the family is that no loading equipment except a belt loader is necessary (unlike A320)
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
| Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13): According to Boeing and Airbus orders/deliveries data, 69 737-600s and 79 A318s have been delivered. That's 148, not "less than 125". |
I wasn't including private operators. My bad. Less than 125 were ordered by airlines.
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
I wonder if there will be much of a secondary market for these aircraft... Perhaps their current owners will sell them off dirt cheap to smaller carriers in the developing world. Or is there a use for them for parts for other A320 family aircraft? Is there enough part commonality?
Yes, but I find it hard to note a pattern of where the 736s fly (besides the obvious routes like LGA). Some "secondary destinations" get both the 736 and 738 on the same route (YYJ-YYC, for example). On the other hand, the 736 can often be found on routes you may consider more "major," such as YYC-YOW (I have been on a 736 on this route - 100% full), or YOW-YYZ.
I've also seen them operate down south on routes like YXX-PVR, while "secondary" destinations like YQQ-PVR from Mexico get the 73G. Obviously Abbotsford is a smaller airport, but it definitely draws traffic from the whole Vancouver area, so I was surprised to see a bigger aircraft on the Comox route.
I'm sure WestJet has some sort of method to where they send the 736s, but I just haven't been able to note a pattern personally.
| Quoting YLWbased (Reply 14): doesn't Westjet have 13 of them 736s in service flying to secondary destinations |
Yes, but I find it hard to note a pattern of where the 736s fly (besides the obvious routes like LGA). Some "secondary destinations" get both the 736 and 738 on the same route (YYJ-YYC, for example). On the other hand, the 736 can often be found on routes you may consider more "major," such as YYC-YOW (I have been on a 736 on this route - 100% full), or YOW-YYZ.
I've also seen them operate down south on routes like YXX-PVR, while "secondary" destinations like YQQ-PVR from Mexico get the 73G. Obviously Abbotsford is a smaller airport, but it definitely draws traffic from the whole Vancouver area, so I was surprised to see a bigger aircraft on the Comox route.
I'm sure WestJet has some sort of method to where they send the 736s, but I just haven't been able to note a pattern personally.
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lightsaber
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I think so.
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- longhauler
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RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
I remember about 10 years ago, AC was looking for a ~100 seat aircraft, J/Y to replace the B737s and DC-9s. A part of that process was to assess Customer acceptance, and the manufacturers interested brought competing aircraft to YUL for people to try out.
Higher levels of Frequent Flyers were invited, as were any interested employees. Naturally, I jumped on a Rapidair flight and head to YUL. Parked at the hangar was a B717, A318, E170 and a CRJ-900. Each had stairs attached, and sales personnel on board to point out each aircraft's advantages. At the end of each walk-through, one was invited to fill out a questionnaire.
I remember talking to one of the Airbus sales reps, and I pointed out first that my opinion means nothing, as I presently flew the A320. He candidly stated that the only advantages of the A318, were mostly operational. Namely crew and maintenance commonalities.
But he said, it really comes down to the type of J class passenger you are expecting. Looking puzzled, he explained ... "If your J passenger is a FF upgrade, or last minute upgrade, then the J cabin really doesn't matter. But ... if your J passenger is a full J paying passenger, then he wants/demands the most comfortable cabin, and the A318 was far ahead of the competition."
Looking 10 years later, it makes sense. AC chose the E175/190, for the Y cabin, and had a Customer preference toward it, over competing narrow bodies. It appears BA agrees, and offers a premium product with the A318. With 10 years of hind-sight, I see very little other business cases for the aircraft.
Higher levels of Frequent Flyers were invited, as were any interested employees. Naturally, I jumped on a Rapidair flight and head to YUL. Parked at the hangar was a B717, A318, E170 and a CRJ-900. Each had stairs attached, and sales personnel on board to point out each aircraft's advantages. At the end of each walk-through, one was invited to fill out a questionnaire.
I remember talking to one of the Airbus sales reps, and I pointed out first that my opinion means nothing, as I presently flew the A320. He candidly stated that the only advantages of the A318, were mostly operational. Namely crew and maintenance commonalities.
But he said, it really comes down to the type of J class passenger you are expecting. Looking puzzled, he explained ... "If your J passenger is a FF upgrade, or last minute upgrade, then the J cabin really doesn't matter. But ... if your J passenger is a full J paying passenger, then he wants/demands the most comfortable cabin, and the A318 was far ahead of the competition."
Looking 10 years later, it makes sense. AC chose the E175/190, for the Y cabin, and had a Customer preference toward it, over competing narrow bodies. It appears BA agrees, and offers a premium product with the A318. With 10 years of hind-sight, I see very little other business cases for the aircraft.
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
| Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 8): Quoting yyz717 (Reply 5): The 735 sold close to 400 units. As the replacement, it was probably expected by Boeing that the 736 would sell in similar numbers despite the 736 being heavier. Brent crude wasn't trading at $110/barrel when Boeing racked up sales for 400 735s. First deliveries of 737NGs occurred when Brent was trading at about $15/barrel. |
That might account for some of the shortfall in expected orders, but not all. By your argument, the 73G would have sold v poorly also, but it has sold well. The market "sweetspot" for the 737 is growing. The 733 outsold the 734 & 735 combined, meanwhile the 738 has outsold the 73G and 739/739ER combined. There are many factors why the 736 did not sell and I'm sure Boeing and Airbus expected the 2 babies to sell more than they did. It looks like both Boeing and Airbus miscalculated the low end of the market.
| Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 21): I wonder if there will be much of a secondary market for these aircraft... |
Not likely. 9 of the 79 A318's have already been scrapped, as have 9 of the 69 736's.
| Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 21): I'm sure WestJet has some sort of method to where they send the 736s, but I just haven't been able to note a pattern personally. |
They are used heavily on YYZ-LGA/YUL/YOW. Also intra-Western Canada. A few YYZ-YVR/YYC/YWG flights will schedule the 736 to likely rotate the fleet. YWG-YUL is a long-time 736 daily route.
Prior to YYZ-LGA and the beefing up in summer 2011 of the YYZ-YOW/YUL routes, the 736 was not even common in YYZ.
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
Avianca Brazil operates a handful of A318, is it due to operation restrictions at certain south american airports?
YLWbased
YLWbased
RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
| Quoting YLWbased (Reply 25): Avianca Brazil operates a handful of A318, is it due to operation restrictions at certain south american airports? |
Nope. AV Brasil operates A-319s and A-320s throughout its network. The A-318s are replacing their fleet of aging F-100s. LAN Airlines was not pleased with the performance of the A-318s even though LAN got the A-318s at a discounted price for purchasing four A-343s back in 1999. LAN secured a deal whereby Airbus would buy back LAN's 15 A-318s when LAN placed an order for additional A-320 family a/c during 2010. AV Brasil is now the recipient of LAN's 15 A-318s.
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- Viscount724
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RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
| Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 21): I wonder if there will be much of a secondary market for these aircraft... Perhaps their current owners will sell them off dirt cheap to smaller carriers in the developing world. Or is there a use for them for parts for other A320 family aircraft? Is there enough part commonality? |
Some A318s have aleady been parted out. Not certain but I believe that's also the case for a few 736s.
| Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 20): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13): According to Boeing and Airbus orders/deliveries data, 69 737-600s and 79 A318s have been delivered. That's 148, not "less than 125". I wasn't including private operators. My bad. Less than 125 were ordered by airlines. |
Assume you're referring only to the A318? As far as I know all 69 736s were ordered by airlines (or leasing companies).
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- NWAROOSTER
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RE: Is There Ever A Business Case For The A318?
Frontier Airlines has had nine A318s that have been retired. Most, if not all, have been broken up for parts as they may be worth more as parts than as an airworthy aircraft. They still have two, I think they will suffer the same fate.
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