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Gonzalo
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ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:21 pm

Although we always talk here about discounts in future orders and other similar ways for compensations from Boeing to the customers affected by the 787 grounding, it seems clear that ANA is going to walk a totally different path.

Now, the biggest problem for Boeing with this, is if they agree to pay in cash to ANA, all the other customers could expect and demand the same treatment. On the other hand, ANA was/is one customer that we can qualify as very loyal to Boeing, and a negative answer from Boeing should be a very awkward situation....

So, what do you think should Boeing do with this ??

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1363787902.html


Rgds.
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[Edited 2013-03-20 10:17:35]
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nutsaboutplanes
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RE: ANA Wants Boieng Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:31 pm

I cant say that I blame ANA. I expect compensation will end up being a "hybrid" of future frame discounts and liquid compensation. I don't think it will be all one or the other. By the number of frames in the fleet, ANA would have been the most impacted from a schedule and finance perspective I believe followed by JAL??
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sassiciai
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RE: ANA Wants Boieng Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:39 pm

Perhaps ANA's Boeing loyalty has been stretched beyond breaking point, so they want cash, as they may no longer be planning to order more Boeing aircraft!

In that case, getting the compensation now in cash, means that they are not bound by future discounts on more Boeing product!
 
F9Animal
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RE: ANA Wants Boieng Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:43 pm

Boeing should pay, and pay every customer for this disaster. Boeing has plenty of money, especially airlines money. Pay up!
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blueflyer
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RE: ANA Wants Boieng Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:45 pm

Quoting Sassiciai (Reply 2):
In that case, getting the compensation now in cash, means that they are not bound by future discounts on more Boeing product!

Not necessarily. Boeing lawyers can certainly draft a contract awarding millions in cash compensation in exchange for an order several times the size of the compensation to be placed within so many years. Whether ANA would accept these terms or not is another story.
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phxa340
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RE: ANA Wants Boieng Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:13 pm

Quoting Sassiciai (Reply 2):

Your reading way too much into this. I fully expect Japanese carriers to order Airbus at some time but they will always be loyal Boeing customers for some time to come.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:22 pm

So this story is attributed to "a person familiar with ANA's intentions".

Meanwhile, an ANA spokesperson said "Nothing has been decided regarding future talks with Boeing".

Yawn!
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flyingalex
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:24 pm

I think for ANA it may be a matter of trying to shore up their finances and their bottom line. The 787 grounding has cost them dearly, and the lost revenue/compensation payments to affected customers will have a major impact on their financial results this year. As such, they probably want cash because they need cash.

Order discounts and the like are all well and good, but they don't solve the problem ANA faces, which is that they have a lot less money in the bank now than they thought they would. Cheap new aircraft tomorrow won't really help in addressing weak cashflows today.

[Edited 2013-03-20 10:39:25]
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KarelXWB
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:27 pm

Looks like Air india wants some cash too.

Quote:
"We will obviously ask for cash. We will negotiate once the planes start flying again," said the senior Indian government source, who has direct knowledge of the situation.

"Air India will surely ask for compensation. There is no question about it."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...ng-787-india-idUSL6N0CCF2I20130320
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rotating14
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:33 pm

Quoting Sassiciai (Reply 2):
Perhaps ANA's Boeing loyalty has been stretched beyond breaking point, so they want cash, as they may no longer be planning to order more Boeing aircraft!

While anything is possile, NH IMHO likely won't cancel. They ordered 66 more 787's after their initial order. The main reason why they want cash is because they can't make up lost revenue NOW with discounts LATER. Makes total business sense. Please read the link below and re-calibrate your thoughts on aircraft manufacturing contracts.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...compensation-idUSBRE92J03V20130320

Quote:
Airlines receive a warranty on their 787s, which, while guaranteeing repairs, doesn't obligate Boeing to compensate for lost business.
 
BD338
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:46 pm

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 9):
Please read the link below and re-calibrate your thoughts on aircraft manufacturing contracts.

Sounds not dissimilar to many major industrial equipment purchase contracts, i.e you get a warranty on the product for X years but Consequential Damages (the impacts to a business which occur as a consequence say for an issue covered under the warranty, loss of revenue is usually covered under consequential damages) are excluded. Almost nobody will sign a contract that includes responsibilty for consequential damages as they could literally be anything and wide open to interpretation and valuation, and potentially put someone out of business. I've seen a few scenarios when a warranty issue has led to a large impact to the equipment user and a few different remedies :

a) apply any liquidated damages in the contract, though these tend not to be applicable once the equipment is installed and declared operational

b) negotiate future discount terms...as Boeing seems to have done in the past b) negotiate a cash payment as a settlement towards the actual cost loss..., often not strictly a remedy included in the contract but the supplier will often take this as a business decision to protect a relationship or to honor the fact their equipment caused their customer a significant issue

c) the lawyers get to go crazy with all sorts of interpretations of Contract and Tort law and the whole thing takes years of
courtroom battles to solve....these are usually reserved for the mega-million-put-a-company-out-of-business type claims
 
trex8
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:57 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 5):

Quoting Sassiciai (Reply 2):

Your reading way too much into this. I fully expect Japanese carriers to order Airbus at some time but they will always be loyal Boeing customers for some time to come.

Until Airbus gives the Japanese heavies 35% of the airframe like on the 787 and they will be incredibly loyal to A as well!
 
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airportugal310
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:10 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 6):
So this story is attributed to "a person familiar with ANA's intentions".

Meanwhile, an ANA spokesperson said "Nothing has been decided regarding future talks with Boeing".

Yawn!

You know...some people DO know people inside of a company that might be high up there or know a thing or two...

Why is this so hard to believe?
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blueflyer
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:18 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 7):
As such, they probably want cash because they need cash.

They don't need cash.

ANA is sitting on a big pile of cash as they raised over USD 1.8 billions last year to finance aircraft purchases and possible acquisitions.

Some of it has been used to pay for the 787s, but they haven't made any acquisition since. Getting $20 or $40 millions from Boeing in cash isn't a do-or-die situation.
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max999
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:18 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 11):
Until Airbus gives the Japanese heavies 35% of the airframe like on the 787 and they will be incredibly loyal to A as well!

On the contrary, according to a Wall Street Journal article, Japanese airlines paid significantly more than other airlines for the 787 because of the 'too cozy' relationship between their aviation industry and Boeing.

WSJ links don't work on this forum so you need to Google for In Japan, Dreamliner Woes Test Cozy Corporate Ties to see the article.

Quote:
The Japanese carriers traditionally didn't bargain hard with Boeing, partly because their purchases support Japanese manufacturers, according to several people familiar with the market.

As a result, ANA paid significantly more for its Dreamliners than other buyers outside Japan that ordered soon after, as Boeing cut the price after early sluggish sales, according to information reviewed by The Wall Street Journal. The deals were likely renegotiated later after delays stalled the program, according to people familiar with the purchase.


[Edited 2013-03-20 12:19:43]
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Aesma
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 4):
Not necessarily. Boeing lawyers can certainly draft a contract awarding millions in cash compensation in exchange for an order several times the size of the compensation to be placed within so many years. Whether ANA would accept these terms or not is another story.

There is no need for either, ANA has many Boeing airplanes on order, meaning many millions to pay Boeing in the future, that number could be shaved a bit.
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Planesmart
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:56 pm

Two parts to the compensation claim.

First, for aircraft that have been delivered. Airlines will be following very closely what the authorities make of the approval into service and hindsighted (or not), by international airworthiness authorities. If an i hasn't been dotted, or t crossed, this may give a substantive avenue for compensation.

Second, in respect to aircraft not yet delivered, progressively through this, and other programmes, as delays extend, manufacturers obtain airline, leasing and finance company approvals. You can take it as read, that initially, the hard compensation would have been almost zero. As delays multiply, and delivery / service moves out years, the compensation is very much financial.

When approvals were given, and deliveries started, there was a collective sigh of relief. At last, financial arrangements could be firmed. Until then, other than for the earliest deliveries, they had been fluid.

Now you have firm financing, it's seriously costing airlines and financiers, for which they will definitely want compensation. Most lenders will have switched to interest only, and in some cases interest rates will be discounted. Loan syndicate members in some cases will have zero income, but have fully drawn committments. Tax effective lending has to occur before legislation is changed, and within appropriate tax years.

Far more than airlines without aircraft in the seriously out of pocket picture.
 
trex8
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:16 pm

Quoting max999 (Reply 14):
On the contrary, according to a Wall Street Journal article, Japanese airlines paid significantly more than other airlines for the 787 because of the 'too cozy' relationship between their aviation industry and Boeing.

Thats because the Ministry of International trade and Industry and NH and JL see it as a domestic jobs creation program for Mitsubishi, Fuji and Kawasaki!
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:09 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 17):
Thats because the Ministry of International trade and Industry and NH and JL see it as a domestic jobs creation program for Mitsubishi, Fuji and Kawasaki!

I didn't know that the ties were so strong that can even affect the job market in Japan in a significant way... Can you elaborate or share a link about this ?

Thanks !!

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ikramerica
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:16 pm

Maybe they should pursue compensation from the JAA for grounding the type. Or sue the battery manufacturer, considering the battery that failed in the NH plane leading to the massive over-reaction was a replacement. Heck, maybe they should sue themselves, as the replacement battery may not have been stored correctly before installation.
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sankaps
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:20 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 6):
So this story is attributed to "a person familiar with ANA's intentions".

Meanwhile, an ANA spokesperson said "Nothing has been decided regarding future talks with Boeing".

Yawn!
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 19):

Maybe they should pursue compensation from the JAA for grounding the type. Or sue the battery manufacturer, considering the battery that failed in the NH plane leading to the massive over-reaction was a replacement. Heck, maybe they should sue themselves, as the replacement battery may not have been stored correctly before installation.

Minimization, denial, and preposterous arguments are alive and kicking on this thread too, it seems. From the usual suspects.
 
trex8
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:25 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 18):
Quoting trex8 (Reply 17):
Thats because the Ministry of International trade and Industry and NH and JL see it as a domestic jobs creation program for Mitsubishi, Fuji and Kawasaki!

I didn't know that the ties were so strong that can even affect the job market in Japan in a significant way... Can you elaborate or share a link about this ?

A websearch for Japanese 787 subsidies would be one place to start. Various Japanese government ministries have always operated to promote Japanese industry and exports vis Toyota, Sony in the 60s. More recently the International Aircraft Development Fund funded by the economics ministry has been used as the channel to promote aerospace. Depending on who you read the Japanese govt has provided US$1.5 to 3 billion in low interest loans and non repayable grants to Japanese corporations to allow their participation in the 787 project. The Japanese equivalent of European Repayable Launch Investment except most lawyers apparently say, unlike RLI, nearly all the Tokyo funding is clearly WTO illegal. EU would have had a better case taking Tokyo rather than Washington to the WTO but they only wanted a trans atlantic trade war , not a global one!
 
kellmark
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:57 pm

There are going to be several factors involved here.

Both Boeing and ANA normally would sign what is called an "Aircraft General Terms Agreement" (AGTA) when they agree on the transaction for new aircraft.

Invariably, in these agreements, the manufacturer will warranty that the aircraft is free from defects. However it will usually only be responsible to repair or correct the situation, with the manufacturer choosing whether it will do the actual repairs itself, or contracting the repairs, or providing money damages for the repair to be done. It would normally include any ferry flights to position the aircraft for repairs.This is only payment for what are called DIRECT damages for the repair of the aircraft.

Throughout these contracts, which are normally pretty standard and usually drafted by the manufacturer, there are numerous situations which specifically prohibit CONSEQUENTIAL damages. These would be sometimes called indirect damages, and would include cancelled flights, the hiring of other aircraft where necessary,etc. The contracts are very specific about the manufacturer not being responsible for any of these. That is not to say that the parties could not agree on some form of compensation that is outside these terms. But normally the manufacturer would not be responsible for any of these costs.

Also, disputes that arise, if they cannot be agreed upon, would be subject to alternate dispute resolution, namely arbitration. This is specified in the AGTA as well, and it specifies where and how the arbitration would take place. The contract also spells out which law will apply.

Now, having said that, when Boeing is dealing with a major customer, like ANA, they want to keep their business. This is also an extraordinary circumstance, with the entire fleet being grounded. They can, if they wish, amend the terms of the AGTA. It does open the door to other customers demanding the same treatment. It seems likely that Boeing will initiate a policy that would apply to all customers equally. I don't expect that they will pay all cash. There might be some compensation of cash and future delivery adjustments, etc. But this will all be negotiated out. ANA and Boeing are pretty stuck to each other at this point.
 
neutronstar73
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:41 am

Quoting Sassiciai (Reply 2):
Perhaps ANA's Boeing loyalty has been stretched beyond breaking point, so they want cash, as they may no longer be planning to order more Boeing aircraft!

HAHAHA! That's a laugh. Sure. You wait till Kawasaki, IHI, and Mitsubishi have a little chit-chat with ANA and JAL. Boeing jets will be bought by Japan's airlines for decades to come.
 
FlyingAY
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:49 am

Quoting kellmark (Reply 22):
Throughout these contracts, which are normally pretty standard and usually drafted by the manufacturer, there are numerous situations which specifically prohibit CONSEQUENTIAL damages.

Let's say that it would take a total redesign and it takes 5 years before the plane flies again. The contract would not still give a possible way out for the airline? Or if the plane would never fly again? If that is the situation, I'm sure some airlines will be wording their contracts more carefully in the future...

Note that I'm not saying that the 787 will not fly soon again, this is purely hypotethical question.
 
blueflyer
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:20 am

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 23):
You wait till Kawasaki, IHI, and Mitsubishi have a little chit-chat with ANA and JAL. Boeing jets will be bought by Japan's airlines for decades to come.

I wouldn't argue that Japanese carriers will be buying Airbus from now on, but at the same time I'd like to know in all seriousness what leads you to believe that Japanese manufacturers can somehow "force" ANA and JAL to buy from Boeing against their own wishes if it came to that?

[Edited 2013-03-20 21:38:32]
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spacecadet
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:34 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 19):
Or sue the battery manufacturer

Boeing is responsible for every single component on the airplanes they sold to ANA, and every other carrier.
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sierra3tango
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:40 am

Well ANA's 787 engines are Rollers, are they not?

Wasn't that a 'first' non US aircraft engine supply?
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:04 am

Quoting sankaps (Reply 20):

On the contrary. So far, this story is nothing more than unsubstantiated rumor from an anonymous 'source', and should be treated as such.

Until ANA makes an official statement, this story has no more substance than an alien abduction story.
What the...?
 
sweair
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:05 am

I think ANA actually likes the 787 so much that they ordered more last year. When this grounding is over they will still like their 787s. JAl has not said much about their 787s, but I guess they are happy too.

AI has been very quiet during this grounding, did it give them some time to fix their finances?

QR too has been quiet, that is a surprise.
 
sankaps
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:51 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 29):
AI has been very quiet during this grounding, did it give them some time to fix their finances?

AI has asked for cash compensation too. See http://www.firstpost.com/business/ai...s-from-boeing-over-787-669258.html

Rest assured QR is not just watching on the sidelines, though they have been quiet in public,
 
777law
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:20 am

Quoting kellmark (Reply 22):

That is generally accurate. I think the thing to remember though is that ANA clearly has liquidated damages (LD's) claims against Boeing for delayed delivery of the 787. Typically the liquidated damages will be charged at some portion of the overall purchase price - for example 0.25% of the contract price per week / month of delay up to a maximum of 10-15% of the price.

ANA's rumored (and that's all it is at this point) demands for cash settlement may in part come from the LD's claim for the delayed delivery. It could be that the LD issue had not been settled before the 787 was grounded. Where, prior to the battery issue ANA may have been willing to settle the LD's in the form of discounts against future purchases, after the grounding they may not be willing to take that deal.

Instead, if the LD's issue had not been settled, ANA would be perfectly within its contractual rights to reject the Boeing offer for discounts and demand that the LD's (or the outstanding, unsettled LD's) be paid out in cash. The point is that the battery fiasco has soured ANA's willingness to work with Boeing on the 787 issues. And rather than accommodating Boeing by agreeing to settle outstanding damages for discounts - ANA is demanding that all damages and claims available under the contract be paid in cash.
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max999
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:16 pm

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 23):
HAHAHA! That's a laugh. Sure. You wait till Kawasaki, IHI, and Mitsubishi have a little chit-chat with ANA and JAL. Boeing jets will be bought by Japan's airlines for decades to come.

If NH and JL are willing to continue subsidizing Japanese industries by paying higher prices to Boeing than other airlines...then I say they will be loyal Boeing customers for many years to come.

Quote from Wall Street Journal's article entitled 'In Japan, Dreamliner Woes Test Cozy Corporate Ties'

Quote:
The Japanese carriers traditionally didn't bargain hard with Boeing, partly because their purchases support Japanese manufacturers, according to several people familiar with the market.

As a result, ANA paid significantly more for its Dreamliners than other buyers outside Japan that ordered soon after, as Boeing cut the price after early sluggish sales, according to information reviewed by The Wall Street Journal. The deals were likely renegotiated later after delays stalled the program, according to people familiar with the purchase.


[Edited 2013-03-21 06:20:08]
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TheRedBaron
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:28 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 11):
Until Airbus gives the Japanese heavies 35% of the airframe like on the 787 and they will be incredibly loyal to A as well!

Airbus gives Aircraft for free, that is why the *sell* so much. (traditional Anet lore)         

Quoting sankaps (Reply 20):
Minimization, denial, and preposterous arguments are alive and kicking on this thread too, it seems. From the usual suspects.

In my view it makes Anet a lot more interesting, reading how a battery issue can make so many posts and circular reasoning and arguing !

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 26):
Boeing is responsible for every single component on the airplanes they sold to ANA, and every other carrier.

Ding DING ! We have a winner. 100% accurate. The responsible for all the 787 program is BOEING.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 28):
Until ANA makes an official statement, this story has no more substance than an alien abduction story.

True, but after all the things that have happened to the 787 program since its flamboyant launch AGES ago, I guess some of us might entertain the idea that Aliens might be behind the delays and problems the 787 has had.

Now on a more serious note, how long are Boeing customers willing to wait and have economic compensation for the grounding of the 787? will they make public the agreements? I really doubt it. we can only speculate.

Best regards
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theaviator380
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:17 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 30):
AI has asked for cash compensation too. See http://www.firstpost.com/business/ai...s-from-boeing-over-787-669258.html

Rest assured QR is not just watching on the sidelines, though they have been quiet in public,

  I was thinking about it to be honest, how come 787 users are still quiet about this grounding, specially compensation point of view. AI will demand, I am not surprise. Let's wait and see how QR react to it..Has any one heard anything from LOT or Ethiopian carrier?
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Quoting Sassiciai (Reply 2):
Perhaps ANA's Boeing loyalty has been stretched beyond breaking point, so they want cash, as they may no longer be planning to order more Boeing aircraft!

Boeing really needs to offer some nice sorry cash and or major/crazy discounts on future orders. Boeing has really messed up and caused the airlines who ordered them alot of pain and needs to compensate.

Can you blame any airline for being mad at boeing at this point?
 
sweair
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:33 pm

What other options are there besides A332 for the 788? Its not as easy for airlines to tell B to shove it even if they wanted.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:42 pm

A number of the airlines that were flying the Boeing 787 were using the aircraft to replace aircraft, like the 767 which they may no longer have or have the ability to lease back on a short term lease until Boeing resolves the problem with the 787 and the FAA along with other foreign regulators restore the Boeing 787s operating certificate. Operators of the grounded 787s are loosing money. Who is is making the lease payments or other payments while the 787s are grounded? Who is paying the storage or parking fees that airports require? Until the 787 returns to service they are just an object costing money and not earning their keep. Boeing is going to have to pay the operators of the grounded 787s financial compensation for the lost revenue and other expenses until the aircraft is again airworthy. The mater may have to go to the courts, but Boeing will pay, the attorneys will get paid and Boeing may have to pay them also.
Boeing has a very bad image with the 787 and it is going to cost them cash and possible future sales.   

[Edited 2013-03-21 08:47:22]
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theaviator380
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:49 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 35):


I don't know why AI got so much of blame ! To me they did nothing wrong asking for compensation. We don't know what was discussed during an agreement (compensation point of view), only news we heard was, AI were asking for lot of money as 787 was delayed. Business point of view who will show sympathy and will say ''ok it's alright few months delay we can adjust our fleet without 787'' and move on !! I doubt any one will do that.
 
phxa340
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:51 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 36):

Amen to that. The reason that we really don't hear much from any of the airlines is because they desperately want this aircraft. Even with its missed 1-2% spec and 3 year delay - the plane is extremely efficient.
 
sweair
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:55 pm

AI although has had a constant issue to finance their frames, even before this happened. I feel for those airlines that really were serious, AI is not one of them, B even had to bridge a loan for one frame iirc.

Not a word from ET, they seem to be a quiet airline.
 
phxa340
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:59 pm

Airbus supposedly declined to pay operators for lost revenue due to the cracks. EK threw a fit and Airbus ended up paying which I expect Boeing to do the same.
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:58 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 40):
I feel for those airlines that really were serious

I'm surprised by the silence of LAN management about this. Probably they think that talking too much about this could cause some degree of distrust for the average passenger about the 787 being "unsafe"... we have our own share of media circus here in Chile ( I still remember when a few years ago, during a report about FIDAE, one poor guy said three times on national TV something about the BOING planes on display... probably half of the people expected that plane will start to bounce on the nose gear ...)

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
sweair
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:03 pm

LAN and ET seem to be the quiet airlines, not saying they take it on the chin, however they probably keep negotiations behind closed doors, not going through media. I kind of like that style more.
 
Carpethead
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:46 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 43):
LAN and ET seem to be the quiet airlines

Both airlines were smart to order 763s or 777s.
NH ordered both as a stop gap measure but no where near enough. Plus in the last year as the 787 deliveries came in earnest, they continued to retire the old 744Ds, 763s, and both new/old A320s. A few sit in the American desert but they are either no longer airworthy or require very expensive maintenance checks.
Poor ANA, personnally I still hope for a A330 order/lease.
For sure ANA won't be the launch customer nor early client for the 777X.
 
LJ
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting TheAviator380 (Reply 34):
I was thinking about it to be honest, how come 787 users are still quiet about this grounding, specially compensation point of view

The media or internet is not the best place to negotiate about damages. Moreover, the grounding hasn't been lifted and the 787s aren't yet in the air. Thus why start negotiations when you don't know the complete impact of this grounding? Better wait until the 787 flies again.
 
SKY1
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:03 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 19):

It's impossible being more wrong, mate. Do you take some special training course for getting it?

Quoting sankaps (Reply 20):
Minimization, denial, and preposterous arguments are alive and kicking on this thread too, it seems. From the usual suspects

  

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 26):

Boeing is responsible for every single component on the airplanes they sold to ANA, and every other carrier.

I fully agree but don't forget many 767's that ANA has is due to a compensation because the Boeing's earliers delay on its own schedule. It's pretty reasonable NH can be very upset with Boeing ...and not just NH  
Time flies! Enjoy life!
 
oldeuropean
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:16 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 39):
Amen to that. The reason that we really don't hear much from any of the airlines is because they desperately want this aircraft. Even with its missed 1-2% spec and 3 year delay - the plane is extremely efficient.

No, it's because the grounding isn't over. Nobody knows how long it will last. Be sure that all of them will demand compensations, when the 787 finally flies again. They have every right for that.
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:39 pm

A little off topic question : I've got a mail from a person who read this forums, he lives under the flight path to one of the SCL runways, and according to him he saw some of the LA 's 787 doing circuits in recent days over his house.
Despite every country has its own laws and regulators, the FAA grounding has ( in practice ) global effect, and both Chile's DGAC and LA are extremely serious about safety and fulfillment of the requirements.... so.... Are some non revenue flights ( like crew training, specific test to a given airframe ) allowed under this grounding ? Or is this person confusing aircraft types and he saw a 767 or 777 ??

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
kellmark
Posts: 558
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2000 12:05 pm

RE: ANA Wants Boeing Compensation For 787 In Ca$h

Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:48 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 48):
Despite every country has its own laws and regulators, the FAA grounding has ( in practice ) global effect, and both Chile's DGAC and LA are extremely serious about safety and fulfillment of the requirements.... so.... Are some non revenue flights ( like crew training, specific test to a given airframe ) allowed under this grounding ? Or is this person confusing aircraft types and he saw a 767 or 777 ??

Each country has its own jurisdiction and its own Civil Aviation Authority. When the FAA issues an airworthiness directive, it sends them to any country who flies that type of aircraft. But the registration of those aircraft may be under a foreign registration and sovereignty. Therefore, those countries may follow the FAA's lead, or not. It is their choice. The Chilean CAA (DGAC) can grant flight authorizations to Lan Chile as it sees fit. Most likely, if they are a 787, they are some form of test, which could be related to the grounding, or due to some major maintenance work which requires a flight test afterwards. It is likely that various CAAs are working together to resolve the 787 problem. Pilot training would normally be done in a simulator. It is not required to use the aircraft for training these days.

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