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nema
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Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:23 pm

This is not a new idea where passengers could be charged by their weight for their flight ticket.

I personally think it is both fair and just for such a scheme in an industry that weight is a serious cost consideration.

Here is an article from todays news about it, what do you A-netters think?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/airlines-ch...engers-more-014228443.html#aRT8UTR
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0newair0
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:32 pm

I doubt it'll ever fly. If it ever does, you probably won't see discounted flying for "light" people... Only fees charged to people who are over the average weight.

That being said, some small aircraft operators and helicopter operators do weigh their passengers (discreetly). The question is, how well would that translate to a large airline with 200 pax per flight? Maybe not so well?
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SCQ83
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:36 pm

I think it is fair but it will never work. It would never be unacceptable in the US just because discriminatory issues.

For me the major implementation issue is how to weigh the passengers in a commercial flight. Do you have balances where passengers are weighed before boarding like they are cattle?
 
Mir
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:37 pm

It would be a PR disaster, that's for sure.

Quoting nema (Thread starter):
I personally think it is both fair and just for such a scheme in an industry that weight is a serious cost consideration.

Except when it comes to passengers, it really isn't. Airlines use a standard weight program that uses average weights for the passengers (the alternative would be to weigh each passenger, which would be logistically difficult). So how heavy a passenger is has no effect on the amount of fuel that will be loaded onto the plane (as opposed to a checked bag, which would). So the only real difference is in the amount of fuel burned during the flight as a result of a passenger being heavier. Which, on an aircraft the size of an airliner, is negligible. You'd be talking less than a dollar of difference on most flights, maybe a few dollars difference on a long-haul flight. The negative PR would more than outweigh that, and the airline would end up losing money on the program.

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aloges
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:40 pm

It's a horrible idea and would (hopefully) fly in the face of all sorts of anti-discrimination legislation. Many people are tall and unless they started dieting to a dangerously unhealthy degree, they would always have to pay extra just because of that. It would do nothing but add insult to the injury that is an economy class seat.
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sierra3tango
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:43 pm

Imagine what would happen on airline web sites.

Everyone (or most people) would downgrade their weight to book on the web site and get their card charged accordingly
(probably promising themselves to lose weight before the flight)

Then they would turn up at the airport & hey presto they owe more for the fare - imagine the arguments & furious PAX

Remember Aurigny Airlines Islanders between GCI & JCI in the 60's & 70's, you had to be weighed to get your boarding card
otherwise it was - sorry can't carry you!
 
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:47 pm

AFAIK this used to be the case in the early days of commercial aviation in some places. But it's a lot of trouble to weigh 550 pax for an a380 flight. I don't see it coming back.
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:45 pm

LOL I can see it now....This week's round-trip specials at Delta- Miami $2.69 per pound, Chicago $2.49 per pound, and London England only $4.99 per pound..... Shop now and save.
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:49 pm

I guess I will have to do sports in the future
 
sk601
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:55 pm

Today, it's March 25.....next Monday the date is....  Wink

[Edited 2013-03-25 08:56:26]
 
mmedford
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:20 pm

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 7):
LOL I can see it now....This week's round-trip specials at Delta- Miami $2.69 per pound, Chicago $2.49 per pound, and London England only $4.99 per pound..... Shop now and save.

Actually; that ain't a bad idea, and include the weight of baggage too.
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gabrielchew
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:21 pm

Whilst I think this is quite fair, I can't see it ever being introduced (same a pay for toilets or standing room "seats").
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:40 pm

It's not fair, you don't chose to be small or big (not even discussing obesity). If a passenger is very large there are more and more rules forcing them to buy two seats. Those are already causing problems.

The first proposition only taking weight into account is ludicrous, unless big persons also get a bigger seat, more consideration from the F/As, a bigger meal, and the opposite for petite Sandy !
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:48 pm

Quoting gabrielchew (Reply 11):
Whilst I think this is quite fair, I can't see it ever being introduced (same a pay for toilets or standing room "seats").

I don't think such an idea is necessarily fair. I'm 1.95m /6.4ft and so every time I fly in Y I am subjected to sitting in seats designed for people 1.79m/5.9ft tall. While one's weight is obviously more controllable then height - the idea to charge by weight isn't a fair one because basic human dignity demands that accommodation be made for more then one body type.
Also, the idea of having the passenger weigh themselves(with or without outside assistance) as part of the check-in process seems awful impractical and VERY hard to implement on a mass scale!

[Edited 2013-03-25 10:50:55]
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motif1
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:07 pm

Since airlines do not charge according to distance flown or CASM then it makes no sense to charge by passengers' weight.
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mcogator
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:33 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 4):
It's a horrible idea and would (hopefully) fly in the face of all sorts of anti-discrimination legislation. Many people are tall and unless they started dieting to a dangerously unhealthy degree, they would always have to pay extra just because of that. It would do nothing but add insult to the injury that is an economy class seat.

lb(kg) per inch(cm) would be a much better method.

Someone 2 meters tall and 100 kgs would be charged the same amount as someone who is 1.5 meters and weighs 75 kgs.

In high school, I was on the weightlifting team, and I weighed 220 lbs, but was 6'6 tall. I would go up againt balls of muscle who were 5'11 and my same weight that would just kill me on the bench press competition. Not fair, imo.
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Jet-lagged
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:34 pm

If this were adopted industry wide, it would put some airlines at disadvantage, in theory. E.g. those whose home markets serve on average taller, larger, or more fat/obese people.

But I can't imagine this ever actually being adopted.
 
flyingalex
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:23 pm

I think charging passengers by weight is logistically too complicated. The payments alone would be a nightmare. Do you enter a guess when you book the ticket, and pay accordingly, with an additional charge or refund if you weigh more/less on the day of the flight? Or do we want to go to airlines not collecting the money until the day of the flight (passengers would love this, airline CFOs, not so much)? It would also be difficult to do in a timely fashion.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 12):
It's not fair, you don't chose to be small or big (not even discussing obesity). If a passenger is very large there are more and more rules forcing them to buy two seats. Those are already causing problems.

I am a big fan of those rules. I once spent a longhaul flight squished against the aircraft wall because the fat §£fi^¶# next to me was too big for his seat and was spilling over into mine. It was a full flight and there was nowhere to move to. Had those rules been around at the time, he would have been forced to buy two seats and I would have been seated somewhere else.
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:27 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 6):
AFAIK this used to be the case in the early days of commercial aviation in some places. But it's a lot of trouble to weigh 550 pax for an a380 flight. I don't see it coming back.

Passengers were weighed but fares weren't based on weight.



Some related history.
http://www.airspacemag.com/history-o...ht/Then--Now-A-Weighty-Matter.html
 
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:21 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
Passengers were weighed but fares weren't based on weight.

It was for aircraft weight and balance purposes back then, wasn't it?
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romeobravo
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:47 pm

If a company wants to try it i have no problem with it.

Quoting jet-lagged (Reply 16):
If this were adopted industry wide, it would put some airlines at disadvantage, in theory. E.g. those whose home markets serve on average taller, larger, or more fat/obese people.

How so? These airlines are already at a disadvantage.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 12):
It's not fair, you don't chose to be small or big (not even discussing obesity).

Of course it's fair. Airline has to use up more fuel lugging around fat people so why shouldn't it be able to charge more?
 
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:07 pm

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 1):
That being said, some small aircraft operators and helicopter operators do weigh their passengers (discreetly). The question is, how well would that translate to a large airline with 200 pax per flight? Maybe not so well?
Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 2):
For me the major implementation issue is how to weigh the passengers in a commercial flight. Do you have balances where passengers are weighed before boarding like they are cattle?

I flew China Airlines about a year ago (LAX-TPE) and I was asked to step on the scale with my carry-ons. This was done at the front counter check-in desk. I was not the only one I noticed after I checked in that other were being asked to do the same thing.

But that was the only time I ever had to do something like that.


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SCQ83
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:34 pm

Quoting jet-lagged (Reply 16):
If this were adopted industry wide, it would put some airlines at disadvantage, in theory. E.g. those whose home markets serve on average taller, larger, or more fat/obese people.

But I can't imagine this ever actually being adopted.

Maybe that is the reason why some US airlines went or are going bankrupt while Asian airlines are doing pretty well  
 
harleydriver
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:40 pm

Back in the late '80's and early 90's I worked the check-in desk for a regional airline that was contracted to check-in passengers for a small airline flying Piper Navajos. We had to ask each passenger their weight for weight and balance purposes and it was AWKWARD. I know some people completely lied and I would add a few pounds to the weight and balance manifest. I know people were embarrassed and I can understand why. We explained why we asked that question.
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Mir
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:41 am

Quoting harleydriver (Reply 23):
Back in the late '80's and early 90's I worked the check-in desk for a regional airline that was contracted to check-in passengers for a small airline flying Piper Navajos. We had to ask each passenger their weight for weight and balance purposes and it was AWKWARD.

For a Navajo it makes sense, since the weight of each individual passenger is a much larger component of the total weight than on even a regional jet.

-Mir
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flightsimer
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:10 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):

average weights do not help with small airliners. How many times have people been removed from flights due to weight issues? How about the 21 people that died in the Air Midwest accident when their Beech 1900 took off nearly 600lbs overweight even though they were within weight based off the old FAA approved averages? Now granted being overweight and out of CG was on 50% of The cause, but still.

Even if passengers don't pay by weight, it wouldn't hurt for everyone to have to be weighed before their flight. Heck with computers these days it could be fully automated with nobody having to know their weight.

Quoting aloges (Reply 4):

Charging by weight IS NOT discrimination if everyone is charged the same rate per lbs. If I pay say $2/lbs and weigh 150lbs and someone who weighs 450lbs pays $4/lbs then that would be discrimination.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 12):

Life isnt fair. Why isn't this fair though? It's entirely more fair than the system we use today in which the person who books 3 months prior pays a tenth of the fair of the person who books 3hrs prior. The flight is going no matter what, why should the last people to purchase their tickets have to pay any more than the people before them?

Quoting mcogator (Reply 15):

Thats not better at all. Volume and density does not come into play for any flight planning except in cargo. Whether your 3ft tall or 8ft tall, your still sitting in the same ammount of space. However your weight will affect the CG and your weight does affect the performance and requirements for the flight.
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Boeing717200
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:13 am

Airlines should never take advice from an academic who has never stepped foot out of the bubble of the classroom.

That is all.
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Skywatcher
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:25 am

What would happen is that mostly thin people would fly the airline that charged by weight to take advantage of lower fares. That would make the whole idea unprofitable since the airline in question would have a far too low average yield per passenger and would be forced into bankruptcy or to scrap the policy.
The policy simply wouldn't be sustainable.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:44 am

What would the costs be to weight everyone? Would you go on an airline that weighed you? Yes, an airline that weighed would save some money in fuel, they would also lose a lot of premium (older) passengers who tend to weight more.

I have a friend who is thin and his wife... isn't. She picks the airline already.

I'll let MOL try this.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 25):
Charging by weight IS NOT discrimination if everyone is charged the same rate per lbs. If I pay say $2/lbs and weigh 150lbs and someone who weighs 450lbs pays $4/lbs then that would be discrimination.

Not discrimination. Just not a good business case.

Let's take myself. I've gained enough to be above average weight, but not obese and I'm above average in height. My two daughters each weight below 50lbm (very young kids, but too old to not have a seat). They would fly at the nominal price, I'm sure I'd have to pay more. Now how much less revenue would the airline make as I'm the one picking the ticket? For the same money, I'll fly the less hassle airline...

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 1):
you probably won't see discounted flying for "light" people... Only fees charged to people who are over the average weight.

   But there could be a business case for *one* airline to do this. Say G4 or Spirit. Or FR.   

Quoting mcogator (Reply 15):
lb(kg) per inch(cm) would be a much better method.

I'm suddenly 4" taller.   

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 27):

What would happen is that mostly thin people would fly the airline that charged by weight to take advantage of lower fares

   There could be a business case though. My cousins who travel light fly G4 and other ULCCs much more than I would. With children, I quickly find the ULCCs cost much more than the LCCs that allow a free bag per ticket.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 25):
why should the last people to purchase their tickets have to pay any more than the people before them?

Err... a lot of LCCs sell by bin. First 10% of tickets at price #1, second 10% at price #2, and so on. If you don't want to pay more buying last minute, buy a ticket 3 months out. Since the system is well known, why are you worrying about it?


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Jet-lagged
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:19 am

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 20):
Quoting jet-lagged (Reply 16):If this were adopted industry wide, it would put some airlines at disadvantage, in theory. E.g. those whose home markets serve on average taller, larger, or more fat/obese people.
How so? These airlines are already at a disadvantage.

If you are moving more pounds, it takes more fuel to do so. I was thinking specially about international flights, but neglected to say so.

Let's take a back of the envelope, at what carrying those extra pounds cost.

Let's say in LargerPeopleCountryAirlines people are on average 20% overweight versus recommended healthy weight, or simply larger than in ABitSmallerPeopleCountry. At an average of say 150 lbs, that makes an extra 30 pounds, if 200 people on the airplane that makes 6,000 lbs. A few thousand $ of lost cargo to be sold.

Another way . .. . an airplane is roughly 50% plane, 40% fuel and 10% passengers IIRC. Say the plane plus people portion is 62% (50 plus 12) vs. 60%. So you need roughly an extra 62/60*40 of fuel, that's around 41.33 instead. If the plane is 500,000 lbs GTOW, the additional 1.33 is around 6,665 lbs (I'm making this up as I type, so surprised how close to the prior figure). 6,665 is around 1850 gallons, which at $4/gall (?) is $7,400 in extra fuel to ferry the large-of-body-mass.

These are simple arithmetic, smarter people here could do them more elegantly.

Spread those numbers 200 passengers, and that's around $10 to $30 per passenger, which I think is enough to factor into yield management computations if you were so inclined.
 
Mir
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:25 am

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 25):
your weight does affect the performance and requirements for the flight.

No they don't. Because average weights are used, the performance will be calculated the same, and the numbers will come out the same, whether a passenger on the plane is 160lbs or 260lbs.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 25):
The flight is going no matter what, why should the last people to purchase their tickets have to pay any more than the people before them?

Supply and demand. Which is an actual economic principle - charging people differently because of gender and body type isn't.

-Mir
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anthsaun
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:38 am

If I buy a ticket according my weight and size (I'm a big guy), do I get a better seat and better meal than the pax paying for less?

In my case I usually buy a business class seat because the economy seats are too small. But not always there are seats available.
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:17 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 30):
No they don't. Because average weights are used, the performance will be calculated the same, and the numbers will come out the same, whether a passenger on the plane is 160lbs or 260lbs.

Depends on what you mean by performance. If standard weights are being used, (and the airline HAS to prove standard weights are accurate by random audit), then take off performance and fuel burn performance will be predicated on that standard.

However, if the weights are higher than standard, the aircraft WILL use more runway for take-off and WILL burn more fuel.

For example, for a B767-300 flying from YVR, for every 1000 pound increase in weight, the aircraft will burn 160 pounds more fuel. So using your example, if you had 10 passengers weighing 260 pounds replacing 10 who weighed 160 pounds, then the aircraft WILL burn 160 pounds more fuel flying from Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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longhauler
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:22 am

Arrgghgh, the crappy edit function of a-net did it again. I'll try this again.

Quoting Mir (Reply 30):
No they don't. Because average weights are used, the performance will be calculated the same, and the numbers will come out the same, whether a passenger on the plane is 160lbs or 260lbs.

Depends on what you mean by performance. If standard weights are being used, (and the airline HAS to prove standard weights are accurate by random audit), then take off performance and fuel burn performance will be predicated on that standard.

However, if the weights are higher than standard, the aircraft WILL use more runway for take-off and WILL burn more fuel.

For example, for a B767-300 flying from YVR to YVR, for every 1000 pound increase in weight, the aircraft will burn 160 pounds more fuel. So using your example, if you had 10 passengers weighing 260 pounds replacing 10 who weighed 160 pounds, then the aircraft WILL burn 160 pounds more fuel flying from YYZ to YVR.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Mir
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:33 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 32):
Depends on what you mean by performance. If standard weights are being used, (and the airline HAS to prove standard weights are accurate by random audit), then take off performance and fuel burn performance will be predicated on that standard.

Which is what I was talking about. Airlines aren't going to add any more fuel just because the aircraft is a bit heavier than average weights would indicate. Nor would they remove revenue-generating cargo. So from a standpoint of whether the flight can depart or not and what it can be loaded with, the weights of the passengers don't matter.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 32):
However, if the weights are higher than standard, the aircraft WILL use more runway for take-off and WILL burn more fuel.

But as you showed, the difference is almost negligible.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 33):
For example, for a B767-300 flying from YVR to YVR, for every 1000 pound increase in weight, the aircraft will burn 160 pounds more fuel. So using your example, if you had 10 passengers weighing 260 pounds replacing 10 who weighed 160 pounds, then the aircraft WILL burn 160 pounds more fuel flying from YYZ to YVR.

So each heavier passenger's share of that would be 16 lbs. Or about 2.5 gallons. Or about $10-15. On an increase of 100lbs. And that's on a decent size trip length - on a shorter trip the difference would be even less.

Which just goes to show how little money we're talking about.

-Mir
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Aesma
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:27 am

I remember some years ago (before I was on this forum) seeing a report on the TV news about an airline weighing passengers, but it wasn't to charge them accordingly, so it was probably about weight & balance (I didn't know of this at the time). It wasn't small planes though, but rather ATR or similar. Suffice to say that if it made the news, it's not because it was popular !
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MeCe
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:53 am

LCC s will jump on this. But surely there will be charge for overweight but no discount on small people  
 
romeobravo
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:25 am

Quoting jet-lagged (Reply 29):
If you are moving more pounds, it takes more fuel to do so. I was thinking specially about international flights, but neglected to say so.

Both airlines are competing for the same people on a route.
 
Gasman
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:44 am

Weight = Fuel. Simple as that. Therefore currently, light people are subsidizing heavy people.

Whether this is "fair" or even morally right is of course debatable. I suspect the answer depends on one's own body mass index.

What I personally have a problem with is this situation. The 50kg woman pays the same fare as the 150kg KFC-gobbling obese man. Fine (you might say). But then the 50kg woman gets pinged hundreds of dollars because she's 3kg over the baggage limit. Where's the fairness in that?
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:02 am

IMHO, this would boil down to the question if being overweight is a personal choice or not. Nobody choses to be fat, but being fat is very often the unintended consequence of other lifestyle choices.

This will cause very furious passengers at the check-in because many people can't think that far. Cognitive dissonance kicks in - in the dispute between the facts and one's thoughts, the facts are readily re-interpreted in a different light to maintain "sanity" and a calm state of mind.

The airlines are discriminating against my exercise of my personal liberties! Agh! Kill them all!

But a company can discriminate against some of my freedoms. I want to spend my whole life naked? They don't have to transport me.

The real problem is discriminating against body height and sex. But the airlines could offer equal fares for a 1.75 meters and a 1.90 meters sized person, provided they have the same weight as the average person stratified by body size.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 5):

Everyone (or most people) would downgrade their weight to book on the web site and get their card charged accordingly
(probably promising themselves to lose weight before the flight)

Then they would turn up at the airport & hey presto they owe more for the fare - imagine the arguments & furious PAX

This would make for a great reality TV show, however... 
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 19):
It was for aircraft weight and balance purposes back then, wasn't it?

When an expedition team in Alaska or somewhere like that charters a helicopter to do some flying, they have to weigh each piece of baggage and tag it. Much less hassle for the crew.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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WesternDC6B
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:27 am

Anthsaun, in Reply 31 said "If I buy a ticket according my weight and size (I'm a big guy), do I get a better seat and better meal than the pax paying for less? "

A good question indeed. Not everyone who is over the weight the life insurance tables expect is fat. I freely admit to being overweight, but my overflowing my allotted seat space is due to my shoulders, not my belly. As I approach my ideal weight, I've not noticed a change in their width.

If the airlines want to start this sort of patty-cake game like they have done with everything else, then, fine. But for that surcharge, I expect a seat where I have enough room for my shoulders, and my fellow row partners are not inconvenienced by them.

Airlines that insist on jamming ever more seats into a row is a big part of the problem. How much narrower will the seats become? Many on here say that the average Joe shops by price. Not me. I shop for seat pitch and width at least for trans-oceanic flights. I cannot afford business class.

(I'm new; I'm not sure how to insert quotes the proper way. Sorry.)
Never employ grandios verbiage when the utilisation of diminutive phraseology will suffice.
 
Gasman
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:46 am

Quoting WesternDC6B (Reply 40):
Airlines that insist on jamming ever more seats into a row is a big part of the problem. How much narrower will the seats become? Many on here say that the average Joe shops by price. Not me. I shop for seat pitch and width at least for trans-oceanic flights. I cannot afford business class.

Totally with you on this. It is one of my major bugbears that economy class is becoming progressively more "economical" even on the legacy carriers - 10 abreast on the 77W on NZ is one such example.

Check out the lovely ambience on this historical photo of an NZ DC-10 in Y

http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6939048&nseq=0

....and this was after they went from 8 abreast to 9 - so this is the cramped version!
 
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WesternDC6B
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:10 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 41):
Totally with you on this. It is one of my major bugbears that economy class is becoming progressively more "economical" even on the legacy carriers - 10 abreast on the 77W on NZ is one such example.

Check out the lovely ambience on this historical photo of an NZ DC-10 in Y

That's how it should still be. I flew Eastern and Delta L1011s a bit when I was in the Navy back in the late 70s. Y at that time was FAR better. Sure, I weighed less in those days, but still the same shoulders as I have now.

I contrast this with a flight I had on KLM from AMS to BAH. Jammed in tighter than a drum, and no place for my feet because the box for the IFEs was there. Can't they find a way to make those smaller?
Never employ grandios verbiage when the utilisation of diminutive phraseology will suffice.
 
peterinlisbon
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:47 am

Maybe in large planes it doesn't make too much difference how much an individual person weighs because with over 100 pax it averages out, but when you are flying a Cessna 172 you've got four seats but can't necessarily fill them - it depends how big the guys are. If you had 4 very slim girls at 50kg each, I think that would be ok, but with big guys weighing in at close to 100kg you could perhaps only have the pilot and 1 passenger.

This reminds me of when I was once flying a Cessna 152 in LA and this really big guy came in and asked if he could join me for a flight. I said to him I'd have to do a weight and balance check first and he just stared at me as if I'd insulted him, which wasn't my intention at all. I could just see that this tiny plane that could hardly get of the ground by the end of the runway as it was perhaps would not make it with him on board.
 
ytz
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:28 pm

I get that this is an April Fool's joke.

But the problem with the idea (if considered seriously), is that it would be largely discriminatory towards adult males. Unless you start assigning target weights by age and gender.

If it becomes a single target (ie. charges for those over 200lbs), then most non-Asian adult males are going to get dinged.
 
jcavinato
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:38 pm

Besides the security stuff with shoes, liquids, taking laptops/iPads out of briefcases, etc., etc, (my wife was patted down yesterday) this would be one more deterrent to commercial travel. Those who have companies that will pay will fly private aircraft, and we'll start to see more use of electronic live video meetings.

The airlines will be left with personal travel where people spend hours searching for a fare that is a dollar cheaper than one they saw before.

This is NOT a good idea.
 
harleydriver
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:59 pm

Since weight and balance is determined by an average passenger weight, are there different numbers for charter flights that carry, say, an NFL team? I guess those numbers would be rather easy to figure out since you can go to ESPN.com and see that each players weights are public record.

My question is, would the chartered airline still use the standard passenger weights, a revised average passenger weight or does the team or organization provide a manifest with total passenger weight?
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longhauler
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:01 pm

Quoting harleydriver (Reply 46):
My question is, would the chartered airline still use the standard passenger weights, a revised average passenger weight or does the team or organization provide a manifest with total passenger weight?

An airline has to justify to its governing body that the standard weights being used (if not actual weights) are representative of the passengers themselves. As a result, airlines are subject to either random audits, or will do occasional self audits of the weights.

On a few occasions, I have had to step on a scale attached to a computer when boarding the aircraft, as were all passengers and crew. This is to verify the accuracy of the weights.

Standard weights used also vary by route, time of day and time of year, and are adjusted accordingly. So they are not always the same. For example I recently flew a MBJ-YYZ flight that diverted to YOW due to weather. With absolutely no change in passenger load, on the initial load release, the passenger load was about 2200 Kgs lighter, as the load computer defaulted to standard weights on that route. It had been determined that MBJ-YYZ passengers are heavier than a businessman flying YOW-YYZ. Of course it was adjusted back to the heavier weights, just an interesting phenomenon.

For sports teams, a different set of standard weights are used, and yes, they too have to be justified and verified.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:45 pm

The day that airlines charge passengers by body weight, will be the day that passengers will retaliate by demanding that airlines, in return, pay heavier aircrew LESS (since their additional body weight is adding to the cost of the flight).

Can you imagine union negotiations for differential pay for the same jobs based on body weight bands? Yikes...

I'm actually very much in favour of ancillary fees to cover ACTUAL incremental (and current variable) costs by airlines, but charging by body weight is a step way too far. Even Spirit charging for carry-on baggage is ridiculous.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 44):
If it becomes a single target (ie. charges for those over 200lbs), then most non-Asian adult males are going to get dinged.

No kidding. I'm a very fit 6-3 205# male. Any such theoretical fee though should be based on body weight+baggage. Since I can spend an entire week on vacation wearing one pair of cargo shorts and not much else, my baggage requirements will counter my body weight nicely.

Though, from a pure cost argument, charging by body weight would be no different than the formulas freight carriers and couriers use. It's a discussion point for passenger airlines but nothing more (unless oil hits $300/barrel).
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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exFWAOONW
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RE: Pax To Pay By Their Weight - Could It Work?

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:25 pm

Quoting harleydriver (Reply 46):
Since weight and balance is determined by an average passenger weight, are there different numbers for charter flights that carry, say, an NFL team?
Quoting longhauler (Reply 47):
For sports teams, a different set of standard weights are used, and yes, they too have to be justified and verified.

When doing manual weight & balance calcs there were summer weights, winter weights and NFL charter weights. There is also an average domestic bag weight, too, so every checked bag did not have to go on a scale. IIRC, those were 165, 175, 225, and 24.5, respectively. This was back in the 90s, so it may (certainly should have) changed by now.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 35):
so it was probably about weight & balance (I didn't know of this at the time). It wasn't small planes though, but rather ATR or similar.

I've seen that in real life. It was operating at the hairy edge of the aircraft's max take-off weight and the pilot wanted to know excaclty how much fuel he could add due to a potential (expected) weather hold en-route.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?

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