technobie
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Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:26 pm

What are your thoughts? Would you consider this family to be disruptive to warrant a diversion? Personally, I think their request was valid (United should do better screening when movies are shown on the overheads, as opposed to PTV's) and it appears they did what they could as parents to distract their kids. It seems the pilot overreacted a bit?

http://consumerist.com/2013/04/04/un...family-off-flight-for-complaining/
 
travelavnut
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:31 pm

Quoting technobie (Thread starter):
It seems the pilot overreacted a bit?

We weren't there, so we really cannot say, now can we?

But a diversion is not a little thing, I would be surprised if a diversion was initiated after;

"The parents maintained they were never rude or angry with the crew, that no threats were made and “the atmosphere was collegial"
Live From Amsterdam!
 
raffik
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:33 pm

I think the truth is missing from this article. The pilot would not divert an aircraft for absolutely no reason, especially if the atmosphere was collegial! Somebody isn't telling the truth here- I expect the father probably gave the flight attendants quite a bad time. Who knows
- Alec
 
lhcvg
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:43 pm

I think Consumerist hits it on head: either there is more to this story, or UA totally blew this out of proportion. I can't imagine a pilot diverting just because of complaints about the IFE, but on the other hand, I wouldn't raise much of a stink myself and just roll with it by distracting my kids through other means.

We bash IFE enough on all these aviation boards that I think travelling with kids and NOT having some alternative IFE -- for whatever scenario might crop up -- isn't a good idea itself. I would have alternatives in case my kid was bored by the onboard IFE just the same as if I didn't want them watching whatever was shown.

But none of that defends what appears to be an overzealous pilot.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:57 pm

Bizarre.

I sat through "Diary of a Wimpy Kid" on an SNA-IAH flight and thought I would vomit -- but no "Oh Flight Attendant, Sirrah, remove this piece of trash from the plane" from me.

DEN-BWI is usually a pretty educated, prosperous crowd, so I'm a bit surprised this happened on that route.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:01 pm

Diverting an a/c is not cheap. The fact they were put on another flight (it sounds like the same day) tells me someone on the UA side of things overreacted.

Normally, movies shown on flights like this one are PG or heavily edited. Perhaps UA missed a headshot or two in this R rated movie?  
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:15 pm

Why divert just to put them on the next flight? What an absolute waste of money and a terrible inconvenience to everyone. If I was delayed on a flight just so the airline could move a family from one flight to the next, regardless of what was "said", it certainly wouldn't make me happy about dealing with that airline again. It seems US airline employees are loving this power to remove people for every little incident and the faster that they're stopped from abusing this power, the better off the industry will be.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:25 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 5):
Normally, movies shown on flights like this one are PG or heavily edited. Perhaps UA missed a headshot or two in this R rated movie?

In all seriousness, this is a very violent movie pitting a gratuitous serial killer against an obsessive-compulsive detective. The violence is very graphic. And on top of that, it's a little bit on the kinky side.

I'd think hard before I showed it in church.
 
727LOVER
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:36 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 4):

Im curious------what would you consider a trailer trash route????  
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:45 pm

The family does have a point, though, about not being able to avoid the movie...which is why I love AVOD over the drop-downs.
I'm sure they weren't quite as "cordial" as they say, but I still think the pilot overreacted...
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:46 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 7):
In all seriousness, this is a very violent movie pitting a gratuitous serial killer against an obsessive-compulsive detective.

Sorry but that is not a movie which should be shown on screens all over an aircraft. It wouldn't be a big deal on an IFE equipped a/c as the parents could simply ensure the kids weren't watching that particular channel. Parents have no options on the overhead screens.

Poor choice by UA and the fact the flight attendants were apparently ignorant of the issue then overreacted and convinced the Captain to engage in an expensive diversion shows that common sense is missing from the equation.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:46 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 8):
Im curious------what would you consider a trailer trash route????

One that doesn't fly to "The People's Republic of Maryland."  
 
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CrimsonNL
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:52 pm

The fact that UA offloaded them, only to book them on the next available BWI flight, makes me think that the error is actually on UA's side.

Even if the family had been rude to the flight attendants, why would that be reason to divert an entire airplane? Assuming that they weren't aggressive or threatening of course. I believe this is another one for the ever increasing list of crew overreactions in the USA.

Martijn
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:54 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 11):
Im curious------what would you consider a trailer trash route????

One that doesn't fly to "The People's Republic of Maryland."

Second answer: If you were to stand in the C concourse at BWI and watch any NK flight unload, you'd see the difference.
 
strfyr51
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:57 pm

whatever the movie WAS I'm almost SURE it wasn't that bad or that good because of how they manage to chop the heck out of the onboard movies to the point that I rarely ever watch one. But I will say that with the NEW Pax Entertainment system?
You won't Have to watch or listen to anything you find objectionable because you'll be PAYING for everything you get!
NO free Movie, NO free Music NADA! Zilch!!
All I want is for XM "Watercolors" to be part of the lineup. all the rest they can KEEP !!
 
rfields5421
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:07 pm

I for a second don't believe the fathers version. I'm sure he was disruptive, rude and threatening to the flight attendants.

But Alex Cross is totally inappropriate movie for the overhead on any flight. United has now admitted the movie should not have been available.

However I do not disagree with the decision of the pilots to divert.
 
technobie
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 6):
Why divert just to put them on the next flight? What an absolute waste of money and a terrible inconvenience to everyone. If I was delayed on a flight just so the airline could move a family from one flight to the next, regardless of what was "said", it certainly wouldn't make me happy about dealing with that airline again. It seems US airline employees are loving this power to remove people for every little incident and the faster that they're stopped from abusing this power, the better off the industry will be.

I agree. Also, no one has really mentioned it yet, but why did the FBI get called to interview the family after they diverted? Airport police, ok, but FBI?? Again, it all seems like a non-issue (family re-booked on next flight) and UA overreacted and is at fault here.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:13 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 5):
this R rated movie

It's actually a PG-13 rated movie, the news item got the rating incorrect:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1712170/

Nevertheless, this current atmosphere of everyone being a security risk is starting to wear a bit thin.
International Homo of Mystery
 
technobie
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:14 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 15):

I for a second don't believe the fathers version. I'm sure he was disruptive, rude and threatening to the flight attendants.

But that is your opinion. Without any comment from United, we just have their word. It says that other passengers agreed *along with the flight attendants and purser* that the content was not appropriate. So, however it was reported to the Captain and whatever transpired between the crew, the Captain made the decision to divert. Until we have United's side of the story, we're all going to just make assumptions.
 
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Polot
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:14 pm

Quoting technobie (Reply 16):
I agree. Also, no one has really mentioned it yet, but why did the FBI get called to interview the family after they diverted? Airport police, ok, but FBI?? Again, it all seems like a non-issue (family re-booked on next flight) and UA overreacted and is at fault here.

The FBI were probably called for jurisdiction reasons. Airport police are in charge of policing behavior at the airport, not for the behavior of people on board airplanes in flight. Disrupting crew operations is a federal crime, so naturally it will be the feds investigating.

[Edited 2013-04-05 08:20:21]
 
26point2
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:35 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 8):
Im curious------what would you consider a trailer trash route????

Anything to KLAS....or KMCO.
 
psa188
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:55 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 3):
either there is more to this story, or UA totally blew this out of proportion.

Normally I'd agree with you but the this is the second time this year that a UA crew overreacted to a passenger comment, the first being that blogger who was recently booted off a flight. That was discussed in a archived thread on this forum.

Here is the original story; the link above appears to go to the follow-up.
http://consumerist.com/2013/04/03/pa...-complained-about-in-flight-movie/

quote: "The interrogation, for want of a better word, lasted only five minutes, according to the passengers, but they were stuck waiting for hours until they were able to get on the next available flight to Baltimore."
"They say that everyone at the airport — FBI, police, United staffers, basically everyone except the pilot — 'were incredulous, and explicit in their condemnation of Captain [XX]‘s actions.”'


Sounds to me like UA needs to revise its instructions to crew re: how to handle these things.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:04 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 12):
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 8):
Im curious------what would you consider a trailer trash route????

One that doesn't fly to "The People's Republic of Maryland."

This is a serious misconception. Marylanders are not trailer trash, they are goody-two-shoes.
 
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Coronado990
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting technobie (Reply 18):
It says that other passengers agreed *along with the flight attendants and purser* that the content was not appropriate.

There's your problem right there. In the 21st century, anytime a few people (read crowd) are in agreement with anything, even if they are right, it becomes a security threat.
We're up.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:15 pm

Quoting psa188 (Reply 21):
Sounds to me like UA needs to revise its instructions to crew re: how to handle these things.

Not to mention, (if the story is accurate), they flew for an hour before the diversion was announced. Clearly security was not a big concern, as line one of the "Disruptive Passenger" checklist is LAND ASAP.

It almost looks like the flight crew "wanted" to go to ORD to time out, and was looking for an excuse.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
psa188
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:23 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 24):

It almost looks like the flight crew "wanted" to go to ORD to time out, and was looking for an excuse.

Good point. Maybe the Captain had a girlfriend there that he wanted to visit.  

Seriously, why do we continue to hear horror stories like this that revolve around UA? Is there something wrong with the corporate culture there?
 
sierra3tango
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 17):
It's actually a PG-13 rated movie, the news item got the rating incorrect:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1712170/

Nevertheless, this current atmosphere of everyone being a security risk is starting to wear a bit thin.

Would have thought its quite simple

If the airline showed 'knowingly' showed a PG13 rated film to cabin which contained under 13s then whatever happened thereafter is a very good defence for anything that might have occured after the event; assuming (of course) the father didn't breach the local law (even if he did, then he has a defence of provocation)

If the crew on board weren't aware of the PG rating or indeed the age of their passengers, then that is the airline's problem. Its hardly as if they don't have the information

The fact that the family were subsequently carried on leads to the thought that the airline's lawyers (or someone with some common sense) concluded that their position was indefensible

Game, set & match to the PAX and the end of PAX drop down entertainment in anything relating to meaningfull 'entertainment'.

[Edited 2013-04-05 09:34:29]

Remember the peanut


[Edited 2013-04-05 09:41:22]
 
lhcvg
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:30 pm

Quoting psa188 (Reply 21):

Fair enough, but isn't that still blowing things out of proportion? I think we're getting at the same thing here -- that UA (at some level, whether procedural or through an error on the crew's part) mishandled it if indeed there is no further information to bring forward.
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:32 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 6):
It seems US airline employees are loving this power to remove people for every little incident

It seems that you're throwing all US airline employees into one group. A bit much, don't you think?

If I said something like that about the employees of a 'certain country's' airline, all hell would break loose. Alas, that 'certain country' doesn't even have its own airline.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
wingnutmn
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:44 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 3):

As a pilot, if we get word of a disruption in the back, we have procedures which usually include not leaving the flight deck. All we get to go by is what the flight attendants tell us. If they say it is a disruption and they need the people off, we don't argue. Because if we decide to plow on and something bad happens, it is our butts dancing in front of a chief pilot or review board. Also, we are trained to fly and flight attendants are trained to deal with disruptive passengers. They say land, we say OK. That is called good CRM. If anything, this may be a case of an over zealous flight attendant.

Wingnut
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
 
psa188
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:47 pm

Quoting wingnutmn (Reply 29):
If anything, this may be a case of an over zealous flight attendant.

Point taken. That's why I said " UA needs to revise its instructions to CREW" regarding these incidents.
 
strfyr51
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:55 pm

Quoting psa188 (Reply 21):

since 9-11 the cabin crews have been Big on discipline. Since they don't HAVE to take much they DON'T and if they say it''s a matter of safety? Then it's all bets are OFF. The crew diverts and they take care of the problem. Unless there are OTHER methods then they can't do much else Nor would I expect them to. Parents who can't control their Kids are as much of a hazard as a Drunk or a terrorist. My kids grew up traveling . They KNEW what would happen if they misbehaved in public on a flight.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 31):
Parents who can't control their Kids are as much of a hazard as a Drunk or a terrorist.

I would rethink that statement from a practical application viewpoint.
International Homo of Mystery
 
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longhauler
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:59 pm

I think what a lot of people on here do not understand, is that when a Captain makes a decision to divert, that decision is reviewed internally. Diversions are expensive and bad PR, airlines do not take kindly to diversions that were not needed.

I imagine that as we speak, United is reviewing this incident.

These diversion investigations are not with the intent of discipline, but with the intent of avoidance. If during the investigation they can see the chain of events that led the Captain to make an incorrect decision to divert, then they attempt to avoid those events again. Bulletins are issued, and if warranted, checklists are amended.

But also understand, if they feel the Captain's decision to divert was correct, the investigation stops there.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
sierra3tango
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:03 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 33):
But also understand, if they feel the Captain's decision to divert was correct, the investigation stops there.

Always assuming the PAX doesn't sue
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:15 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 20):
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 8):Im curious------what would you consider a trailer trash route????

Anything to KLAS....or KMCO.

Folks departing G4 and NK flights wearing Crocs and no-show socks?
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:26 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 22):
Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 12):Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 8):
Im curious------what would you consider a trailer trash route????

One that doesn't fly to "The People's Republic of Maryland."

This is a serious misconception. Marylanders are not trailer trash, they are goody-two-shoes.

I would think that any social description using a broad brush would be inaccurate.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:29 pm

Quoting wingnutmn (Reply 29):
they say land, we say OK. That is called good CRM. If anything, this may be a case of an over zealous flight attendant.

So the F/A's are the ones who choose whether to divert or not.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
lhcvg
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:29 pm

Quoting wingnutmn (Reply 29):

Thanks for that. I didn't mean to imply it was all on the pilot, as the FAs certainly play a big part in that decision for the reasons you state.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:32 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 22):
This is a serious misconception. Marylanders are not trailer trash, they are goody-two-shoes.

I flew MCO-BWI a couple of weeks ago, and when the FA said "bla bla arriving to Baltimore-Washington Airport" half the plane yelled "Baltimore, Maryland"  

Anyway I feel that flights in the US tend to be quite calm.... European airlines tend to be much more relaxed about drunk passengers yelling or singing (i.e. UK or Russia to holiday destinations in the Mediterranean... that can be an experience of its own).
 
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longhauler
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:33 pm

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 34):
Always assuming the PAX doesn't sue

No, if the employee is working within the guidelines of his airlines SOPs, then that employee does not get involved if an ambulance chaser decides to attempt an early retirement.

Most checklists and SOPs are approved by the government overseeing the airline, in this case the FAA. If checklists are followed, and the airline agrees the employee worked within the tools he had, then a lawsuit, while naming everyone, ends up against the governing body, and is usually unsuccessful.

This is the case in the United States, (and Canada) ... but not in the country where you appear to live, the UAE, where employees have virtually no rights.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:35 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 39):
Anyway I feel that flights in the US tend to be quite calm.... European airlines tend to be much more relaxed about drunk passengers yelling or singing (i.e. UK or Russia to holiday destinations in the Mediterranean... that can be an experience of its own).

Try being on a RyanAir flight from Rome to Stansted, running two hours late (so we leave at 2330) with folks stampeding to board the aircraft to the point some little kid got pinned against the air stair rail as the staff looked on. Fun times.
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 28):
It seems that you're throwing all US airline employees into one group. A bit much, don't you think?

Then you understand wrong. It's not an unfair statement, however, to say that whenever an airport/airline employee abuse their power or become ridiculously paranoid about the slightest thing, it's usually in the US.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:43 pm

They didn't want to see the movie. The only way to accommodate that was to let them off of the plane.
 
wingnutmn
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:43 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 37):

No, but the FA can initiate security procedures and once initiated that greatly influences pilots decisions. Once a security situation is started, the company is notified and they then start assisting in making decisions. Is the captain the final authority? Yes, but a captain that doesn't listen to his crew is not a good one. That is just how I work.

Wingnut
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:49 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 13):
Second answer: If you were to stand any airport and watch any NK flight unload, you'd see the difference.

Fixed it for ya  
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:50 pm

Quoting wingnutmn (Reply 44):
No, but the FA can initiate security procedures and once initiated that greatly influences pilots decisions. Once a security situation is started, the company is notified and they then start assisting in making decisions. Is the captain the final authority? Yes, but a captain that doesn't listen to his crew is not a good one. That is just how I work.

Wingnut

I see part of the Captain's analysis hamstrung by the mandate that he/she not leave the flight deck. This post 9-11 (I assume) rule means well but takes away the Captain's ability to assess the issue for him/herself and tamp the issue down without diverting.

Absent a shouting match and threat, tell the FA to shut down the movie, issue over.

[Edited 2013-04-05 10:52:34]
 
sierra3tango
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:53 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 40):
Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 34):
Always assuming the PAX doesn't sue

No, if the employee is working within the guidelines of his airlines SOPs, then that employee does not get involved if an ambulance chaser decides to attempt an early retirement.

Most checklists and SOPs are approved by the government overseeing the airline, in this case the FAA. If checklists are followed, and the airline agrees the employee worked within the tools he had, then a lawsuit, while naming everyone, ends up against the governing body, and is usually unsuccessful.

This is the case in the United States, (and Canada) ... but not in the country where you appear to live, the UAE, where employees have virtually no rights.

I'll (mostly) ignore the bit about the UAE and no rights.... you obviously don't know

To the grist of the subject, do the SOPs allow?, or do they NOT allow? PG13 films to be shown to under 13 year olds ? If they allow then the airline is not you're family friendly airline (safe in family value terms), if the SOP's do not allow then the airline has got it wrong

Its quite simple, all else follows therefrom
 
eastern747
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:57 pm

For petes sake folks...It's BAL TE MuRE . I was born and raised there and attended Univ. of Md. Go back sometimes for steamed crabs. Want to see trash routes? Try every flight to LAX.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Family Kicked Off United Flight...

Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:07 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 41):
Try being on a RyanAir flight from Rome to Stansted, running two hours late (so we leave at 2330) with folks stampeding to board the aircraft to the point some little kid got pinned against the air stair rail as the staff looked on. Fun times.

I was not talking about Ryanair (which is a circus by itself), but about some flights from some European countries where heavy drinking is quite socially accepted (like the UK or Russia) to sun&beach destinations. Heck, I even remember one AMS-LTN (not your average "holiday" flight in Europe) on a Sunday afternoon where half of the plane was very "happy" singing (I wonder if they had smoked something in the Netherlands   ).

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 42):
Then you understand wrong. It's not an unfair statement, however, to say that whenever an airport/airline employee abuse their power or become ridiculously paranoid about the slightest thing, it's usually in the US.

It is not about being paranoid, if UA was playing a PG-13 rated movie (if it was R rated it would have been even worse) and there are children on that flight there is certainly a case to sue United Airlines... What about for instance an UM?

Quote:
Rated PG-13: Parents Are Strongly Cautioned to Give Special Guidance for Attendance of Children Under 13 – Some Material may be Inappropriate for Children Under 13.

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