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United727
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ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:47 am

In my opinion, this is a most blatant, knock-off of the DC9-80/90 series aircraft. Will this type ever be embraced / see service in the US by current MD operators or is it predestined to remain only in Asia with their B737/A320 style entry, the C919? Although there will be differences, would current MD crews be able to transition to the ARJ with ease?

[Edited 2013-04-09 18:47:45]
 
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yyz717
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:53 am

There was a recent article in AWST about the ARJ21 suggesting its certification in China is indeed in doubt. it may never enter service anywhere.
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bohica
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:18 am

Quoting United727 (Thread starter):
In my opinion, this is a most blatant, knock-off of the DC9-80/90 series aircraft.

It's definitely a reverse-engineered DC-9.

Quoting United727 (Thread starter):
Will this type ever be embraced / see service in the US

The ARJ21 will be lucky it it even sees the USA. I seriously doubt an ARJ21 will ever land at an airport in the USA.

Quoting United727 (Thread starter):
is it predestined to remain only in Asia with their B737/A320 style entry, the C919?

To be honest. I don't see much of a future for either aircraft. The Embraer 170/190 series has been in service for almost 10 years, and the CRJ-700/900 even longer than that. Also the C-series and MRJ are around the corner, both with quite a few orders. Even the SSJ is getting some orders. The market is getting saturated.
 
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zkojq
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:29 am

Quoting bohica (Reply 2):
I seriously doubt an ARJ21 will ever land at an airport in the USA.

Surely one will eventually land in VCV, GYR, TUP or MHV for its appointment with the scrappers?

Quoting bohica (Reply 2):
The market is getting saturated.

  
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:39 am

Quoting bohica (Reply 2):
It's definitely a reverse-engineered DC-9.

I'd be hard pressed to call it reverse-engineered. I'd say its using the MD-90 tooling because they have it.

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Acheron
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:45 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 4):
I'd be hard pressed to call it reverse-engineered. I'd say its using the MD-90 tooling because they have it.

With wings designed by Antonov.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:01 am

For a plane that was supposed to enter service in 2007 and failed wing static testing and now has some sort of landing gear issue...

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 1):

There was a recent article in AWST about the ARJ21 suggesting its certification in China is indeed in doubt. it may never enter service anywhere.

Do you have a link? I did not find anything Googling.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 4):
I'd be hard pressed to call it reverse-engineered.

When its that badly done, I agree. But it is still stolen technology.

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StickShaker
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:08 am

Quoting bohica (Reply 2):
The market is getting saturated

There are quite a few contenders out there but the list of types from credible manufacturers (for whom finance and reliable support is available) would be restricted to the MRJ, E-jets and C Series.

I couldn't see major western airlines buying anything else.


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roseflyer
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:59 am

I doubt the FAA or EASA will ever certify it. COMAC does not have the delegated authority to design an airplane that the FAA will certify until the C919 and even that is in question since they are not following the typical certification process. They are outsourcing it to suppliers because they do not have the in house experience to do it themselves. Even Boeing kept it all in house on the 787 despite outsourcing design work.
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AirbusA6
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:18 am

No

But then, leaving aside the issues raised in the emails above, I doubt it was ever the intention to seriously sell it in the West. When you've got a semi captive domestic market of 1.4bn people, it makes sense to build up your airliner industry slowly. Less embarrassing if it all goes wrong too...
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r2rho
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:49 am

The question is rather, will it ever see success anywhere at all? IMO no... FAA or EASA certification are out of the question, too many things have been done wrong. Even Chinese certification is uncertain, though may happen after enough redesigns.
Doesn't matter. I see the ARJ21 as primarily a learning experience for the Chinese industry. If they have learnt something from it, and they can build a better (and most of all, certifiable) C919, then it will have been a relative success.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:07 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 10):
I see the ARJ21 as primarily a learning experience for the Chinese industry. If they have learnt something from it, and they can build a better (and most of all, certifiable) C919, then it will have been a relative success.

I used to think that way. However, there are indications the program is more political than technical. Thus, few true 'lessons learned' that will be implemented for the C919.

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virgin747
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:17 pm

Haha reminds me of when Jeremy Clarkson and James May from Top Gear went to China to look at all those knock off cars....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz1LsXwATig

[Edited 2013-04-10 09:31:09]
 
United727
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:37 pm

You would think they would have actually learned since their days with the "chinese" version of the 707/720 that they so badly flopped.

I was under the impression that a prototype was actually flying and has several hours on it. Is this correct?
 
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Francoflier
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:07 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
But it is still stolen technology.

I can't remember exactly how the MDD Chinese venture fiasco unraveled exactly, but I wouldn't call it outright theft.

MDD left the tooling there, probably sold it to a local company. I'm guessing they have been handed the greasy handle of that particular deal. Still, MDD brought these tools into China in the first place.

It would be interesting if anyone had more insight on that story...

In any case, the MD-80 was hardly new tech even when the ARJ21 was just an engineer doodle.
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brilondon
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:35 pm

I started a thread about this aircraft a while ago and was informed that the tooling was sold to the Chinese after the final 717 was built. I don't know the accuracy of that information but I seriously doubt if the technology was in fact stolen but more or less was allowed to be borrowed.
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lightsaber
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:42 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 15):
I started a thread about this aircraft a while ago and was informed that the tooling was sold to the Chinese after the final 717 was built.

That depends if any of the Douglas drawings were used. Its not the tooling per se, but did they just build douglas parts without paying licensing (to, ironically, Boeing)?

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ADent
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:56 pm

the ARJ21 was planned to get FAA certification. In fact it was stated that the C919 certification would be after the ARJ21 certification.

One source said the ARJ21 was being built in the same building the MD-80 Trunkliners were built in. So if there was any tooling left over .....
 
aeronut
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:49 pm

Guess it takes a lot more than ripped off drawings and tooling to successfully create an aircraft program.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:10 am

Quoting aeronut (Reply 18):
Guess it takes a lot more than ripped off drawings and tooling to successfully create an aircraft program.

Which explains my career.  

Lightsaber
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airways1
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:52 am

Ever seeing the ARJ21 in commercial service is in doubt, but it seems Joy Air is still holding out hope as they announce that the ARJ21 will be entering service with them "next year". They've been saying that for the last few years though.
 
r2rho
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:53 am

Quoting aeronut (Reply 18):
Guess it takes a lot more than ripped off drawings and tooling to successfully create an aircraft program.

Yes it does, and that expertise is the main competitive advantage that Western manufacturers still have and must hold on to. It takes a long time to build up that know-how (but little to lose it..). The Chinese are good at manufacturing lots of components of all sorts, but in terms of integrating and certifying complex safety-critical systems, let alone bring them together on a whole aircraft, there is much much to be learned.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: ARJ21 - Will It Ever See Success In The US?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:57 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 21):
(but little to lose it..)

You wouldn't believe who cannot do landing gear anymore in the Western aircraft vendors. Sort of appropriate for an ARJ21 thread.  
Quoting r2rho (Reply 21):
but in terms of integrating and certifying complex safety-critical systems, let alone bring them together on a whole aircraft, there is much much to be learned.

They also lack the knowledge on design trade offs and why one switches from one design to another at certain conditions.

Lightsaber
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