nitepilot79
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Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:15 am

I find it a bit of a surprise that Scotland doesn't have its own airline to at least fly to a couple US destinations, maybe NY and Chicago, with perhaps a few European destinations. It's a shame that such a beautiful and developed country doesn't seem have any presence in the air travel industry outside of its own borders. I realize that there is a lot of competition within the region courtesy of BA and friends, but this is Scotland , not some tiny country that almost nobody has heard about! I think Scotland deserves better.

[Edited 2013-04-09 23:34:36]
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:24 am

Well it DID have BA back in the old days. If i remember correct, at one point BA flew 757s and tristars to new york.
 
DeltaXNA
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:29 am

US and UA fly to GLA from PHL and EWR
 
nitepilot79
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:33 am

Quoting DeltaXNA (Reply 2):

US and UA fly to GLA from PHL and EWR

Should have been clearer. I meant Scotland having its own airline. Will edit post.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:44 am

It was called British Caledonian but IIRC the carrier was based at LGW and later absorbed into BA. A good airline BTW, showing the tartan look, good service on board and Bac 1-11 on European flights.

Lateron it was tried several times to start-up some Scottish based carriers but the market seems to be too small.
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rwy04lga
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:34 am

Quoting DeltaXNA (Reply 2):
US and UA fly to GLA from PHL and EWR

Does not UA operate EWR-EDI? Delta, please come back to EDI.   

PIK-based Highland Express operated one 747 from 1984 to 1987.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
rutankrd
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:21 am

Loganair is the the airline I'd say represents Scotland

The name and genealogy are uniquely Scottish however they currently operate as a Flybe franchise over much of their network.

The Isles and Ambulance flights remain under their own liveries.

As for Trans Atlantic operations for much of the later twentieth century flight were restricted to using only Prestwick and those consisted of near daily Toronto Montreal and JFK services shared with Manchester by BA
BCAL also operated a short programme in the early seventies.

During its existence British Caledonian connected Scottish cities with Gatwick and the only regular and scheduled international service from Scotland that operated for any length of time was a daily Glasgow - Amsterdam via Newcastle BAC1-11 service.

Until the arrival of the LCC -flexible fares operators Scotland was very much deprived of meaningful direct scheduled services to even mainland Europe.

BA routed most via either Manchester or Birmingham with just a daily direct Paris from Glasgow !

Since devolution things have changed especially at Edinburgh

Truth is through beyond the Clyde- Firth lowland strip there isn't a right lot of catchment.
However due to poor roads under developed rail and basic geography domestic air travel in the highland and Islands remains very much a necessity
 
nitepilot79
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:34 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):

It was called British Caledonian but IIRC the carrier was based at LGW and later absorbed into BA. A good airline BTW, showing the tartan look, good service on board and Bac 1-11 on European flights.

nitepilot79: "I'm surprised that Scotland doesn't...."


I meant currently. Not in the past. See self quote above. Thanks for the info though. I always liked the British Caledonian livery.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:39 am

In the days of big carriers and continued consolidation, this is just a pipe dream.

Airlines these days need scale to make things work and Scotland alone can not support a long haul carrier. THeres enough options out there to use already.
 
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moo
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:51 am

Glasgow Airport - 7.1Million passengers in 2012
Aberdeen Airport - 3.3Million passengers in 2012
Edinburgh Airport - 9.1Million passengers in 2012
Prestwick Airport - 1.1Million passengers in 2012

while...

Manchester Airport - 19.7Million passengers in 2012

The entire passenger count of the top four airports together in Scotland only just exceeds one single secondary airport in the north of England.

Thats why there is no legacy airline for Scotland, the market can't support it.
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:57 am

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 7):
I meant currently. Not in the past. See self quote above. Thanks for the info though. I always liked the British Caledonian livery.

It is due to history that we don't currently have a legacy carrier.

It wasn't until 1987 that BA was privatised, up until then they were government run and were the flag carrier for the whole of the UK. Also up until 1989 all transatlantic flights had to use Prestwick airport, and were banned from using EDI/GLA for transatlantic flights. As such BA concentrated on routing passengers via their english hubs in London / Manchester / Birmingham, while other airlines picked up the direct flights.

In 1999 Scotland was given a devolved parliament, and was finally allowed to take control of certain affairs. This resulted in a massive economic boom, primarily in Edinburgh. This led to the creation of a strong financial sector in the city, which drove the demand in air travel.

As a result of all of this, up until the mid 90's there wasn't really a lot of demand, and there were a lot of regulations over where airlines could fly. Most of the demand was already catered for by other foreign based carriers.

There were a few attempts to set up Scottish based airlines since then - Duo, Air Scotland and FlyGlobespan, but ultimately all of them failed for various reasons.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:10 am

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 3):
I meant Scotland having its own airline.

I would have thought that since Scotland is still part of Britian they have their own airline, it's called BA  
 
Eurohub
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:21 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 11):
I would have thought that since Scotland is still part of Britian they have their own airline, it's called BA

Exactly, and if they are successful in gaining their independence following next year's referendum then perhaps they can start their own state owned national carrier utilising the existing business model that has worked so well for so many other small nations over the years  
Forget A vs B - Give me E or BAe any day of the week!
 
EZYAirbus
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:22 am

Lets not forget the short lived Air Scotland in the early 2000's


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vv701
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:25 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 6):
Loganair is the the airline I'd say represents Scotland

Note the titling here:

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Scotland's airline for 50 years! But latterly it has operated most flights in flybe and before that BA colours.

And then there was:

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which did not survive for anywhere near 50 years.

BA once operated TriStars, then 767s and finally 752s. from GLA across the North Atlantic until they gave up at the end of Summer Season 1998:

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romeobravo
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:47 am

Scotland does have its own legacy airline: BA.

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 10):
This resulted in a massive economic boom, primarily in Edinburgh.

Certainly not the result of having a devolved parliament.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:43 am

Quoting nitepilot79 (Thread starter):
I find it a bit of a surprise that Scotland doesn't have its own airline to at least fly to a couple US destinations

Well we had BOAC for years and later British Airways up to early 1982 where they served MAN-PIK-JFK / YYZ / YUL at the end, indeed in earlier years fuel stopping LHR-PIK-xyz services were also common. BCAL had tried PIK-US in the early 1970s but this ended with the fuel crisis. We also had Laker on PIK-JFK / MIA / LAX, coupled with strong competition from BA there was no room for a 3rd. Unlike Aer Lingus in Ireland, Scotland is, as I am sure you know, part of Britain and so BA had a dominant market presence.

Former partner and co-founder of Virgin Atlantic (when it was still British Atlantic Airways) Randolph Field's Highland Express came along operating one B747-123 in 1987 serving STN-PIK-EWR and BHX-PIK-EWR, this venture lasted six months, Jul-Nov, and collapsed. It had been badly undercapitalised and unlucky from the start, with the start of operations delayed until the end of June, four weeks of rebooking your customers was not the best start.

After BA left in 1982, we had NW serving PIK until 1990 and then when GLA opened up, NW moved and was joined by AA, BA and UA in 1993. This market was over served and contracted when alliance membership meant UA and BA were better served over LHR. CO pitched up in 1998 on GLA-EWR and later opened EDI-EWR, the latest entrant is US on a seasonal GLA-PHL. DL also had a go on EDI-ATL and then EDI-JFK but neither was a success.

Key point is that with all those majors and alliances in play at one point or another, there wasn't a market big enough for a newcomer to establish themselves in.

Come to think of it there was Donaldson's with B707s but not sure if they ever went long haul?
 
skipness1E
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:49 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 8):
this is just a pipe dream.

  Wardair used to have one meet arriving heavies at Prestwick (PIK / EGPK), United Kingdom">PIK, in full Highland dress.

Quoting ezyairbus (Reply 13):
Lets not forget the short lived Air Scotland in the early 2000's

Way more Greek than Scottish...
flyglobespan showed some promise but managed to screw it up, not for the first time Mr Dalrymple....
G-CDPT

[Edited 2013-04-10 04:05:02]
 
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GCT64
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:51 am

Despite its profile and the awareness of it, Scotland is a fairly small country (5.3M) (only 35%-50% of the population of London's metropolitan area) but that, in itself, is not an impediment to having an airline (Singapore = 5.3M, Hong Kong = 7M). However, the Scottish population is very spread out: 174/sq mi (versus 1000/sq mi in England, 19000/sq mi in Singapore and 16500/sq mi in Hong Kong) [I am fully aware that the central belt is much higher density than the rest] and I think this small and spread out population (reinforced by the GLA-EDI split) made it difficult to get the critical mass for a Scottish airline to get established when there was the chance (there have been a number of failed attempts).

Now, of course, a new Scottish airline would have to get established in the face of tough competition from EZY, FR, BE, BA, AF/KL, LH etc. (many of whom have Scottish crew bases) and I am pretty sure that would be impossible (even long established airlines elsewhere in Europe are failing against this intensity of competition - CY, Malev, OK etc.).

I am sure Scotland's best approach is to keep attracting more and more service from existing airlines rather than wasting money trying to create a new competitor.
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nitepilot79
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:06 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 15):
Scotland does have its own legacy airline: BA.

So technically they do. Although, Scotland is the last place that comes to mind when I hear the name British Airways. I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't the only one who felt this way. There should be a more blatantly Scottish airline out there. IMHO
 
brilondon
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:10 pm

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 10):
There were a few attempts to set up Scottish based airlines since then - Duo, Air Scotland and FlyGlobespan, but ultimately all of them failed for various reasons.

There is just not a large enough market to warrant their own airline to fly to Scotland.

If you believe the Movie "Trainspotting", Scotland is just a crap hole full of Heroin addicts. Seriously, I have spent a few weeks in Scotland one summer and as long as you don't mind the cold, damp rainy weather it is a nice place. Whiskey helps, but reality is that BA is the British Airline and apart from the Scottish separatists, they are still part of Britain and thus have British Airways.
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26point2
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:18 pm

Scotland is not a "Country" any more than Texas is a country.....although folks from either would be happy to secede.

I do wonder why Scotland/Wales/England represent themselves as independents in World Cup play but not in the Olympics.
 
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cosyr
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:31 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 9):
Glasgow Airport - 7.1Million passengers in 2012
Aberdeen Airport - 3.3Million passengers in 2012
Edinburgh Airport - 9.1Million passengers in 2012
Prestwick Airport - 1.1Million passengers in 2012

while...

Manchester Airport - 19.7Million passengers in 2012

The entire passenger count of the top four airports together in Scotland only just exceeds one single secondary airport in the north of England.

Thats why there is no legacy airline for Scotland, the market can't support it.

Except that Glasgow and Edinburgh from above there are each roughly half the size of Manchester, and Manchester has more than 2 daily transatlantic flights, meaning that they should be able to support more than 1 each. No one is claiming that GLA and EDI should have the same service as MAN, just something that is actually based there.

Personally, I would love to see and Icelandair type operation, where EDI or GLA could support some small transatlantic flights in order to connect to Europe though a lower hassle airport than LHR, CDG, etc., but I understand the competition would be fierce. Just surprised no one has tried it. It seems like every dumb idea has been tried at some point in the airline industry.
 
JU068
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:37 pm

Why are people insisting British Airways is the 'national carrier' of Scotland. It is a private company which means that easyJet, flybe or Monarch could be considered the same.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:51 pm

I do love a good flame war so let me add that the stereotype of Scots not enjoying putting their hand in their pocket is TRUE - ask all the airlines that have tried serving Scotland - they always say the same thing when they axe the service a season or two later - loads were great but yields were a disaster.

Plenty of Scots like to travel - the trick is getting them to pay you enough that you male a profit. Many are called, few are chosen.
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rwy04lga
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:59 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 20):
Whiskey

If it's made in Scotland, it's 'Whisky'. Made anywhere else and it must be named 'whiskey'. Only whisky made in Scotland is called 'Scotch'. Also, a person from Scotland is called 'Scottish' or 'a Scot'. It is incorrect to call a person 'Scotch'. That's akin to calling someone a 'Berliner'.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
vv701
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 21):
I do wonder why Scotland/Wales/England represent themselves as independents in World Cup play but not in the Olympics.

Probably history.

The first international soccer match was between England and Scotland in 1872. Ever since its formation the "home nations" - England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - have remained individual members of FIFA.

On the other hand Great Britain was one of thirteen initial members of the International Olympic Committee founded in June 1894. In itself this created an anomaly as Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom but not Great Britain. So Northern Irish nationals may now elect to compete as a member of the Great Britain or of the Republic of Ireland Olympic teams.

A further apparent anomaly is Rugby Union. The Irish Rugby Football Union was formed in 1874. Ever since then it has drawn its players from what are now the Republic of Ireland and from Northern Ireland. And in a few weeks The British and Irish Rugby Union Lions will start their 2013 tour of Australia. This a combined Republic of Ireland / England / Scotland / Wales rugby team.

In flying terms the apparent anomalies continue. The Common Travel Area (CTA) includes all of the British Isles including the Republic of Ireland. It is not equivalent to a homogeneous domestic market. But neither is travel between its constituent parts equivalent to international travel. So, for example, UK Border Control treats all passengers arriving at LHR from the DUB as they would if they had started their journey at EDI. But going the other way is just a little different. Those interested will find more detail here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area
 
skipness1E
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:10 pm

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 19):
So technically they do. Although, Scotland is the last place that comes to mind when I hear the name British Airways. I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't the only one who felt this way. There should be a more blatantly Scottish airline out there. IMHO

We have already explained why there isn't, and to behonest, Scotland is pretty British and about to vote to remain so. Unless you have a compelling business need for "Tartan Airways" then you're just playing armchair CEO. Also to state the really obvious, it's WAY to close to London to start building any koind of hub, DUB has partly as trains to LHR always arrive wet....

Quoting brilondon (Reply 20):
If you believe the Movie "Trainspotting", Scotland is just a crap hole full of Heroin addicts. Seriously, I have spent a few weeks in Scotland one summer and as long as you don't mind the cold, damp rainy weather it is a nice place.

Oh please stop, the weather is fine in summer often times, poor in winter and on a par with Ireland. Trainspotting is representative of nothing, what a ludicrous and offensive analogy to draw. Borderline trolling now, I am sure Irving Welsh could have set it just as easily in Los Angeles, Amsterdam or Berlin and not changed a beat of the plot.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 21):
Scotland is not a "Country" any more than Texas is a country.....although folks from either would be happy to secede.

An basic search would have shown you Scotland to be a nation state under David I from the 11th century, a competitor to a stronger England which would remain until the Union of 1707 and the creation of Great Britain and Ireland from the component states. Scotland and the home nations are just that, nations within a nation state, not federal and not central. I am Scottish and British, it's a notion the non British really struggle to get, however your lack of understanding ought not to prevent recognition of the fact.

Quoting cosyr (Reply 22):

Except that Glasgow and Edinburgh from above there are each roughly half the size of Manchester, and Manchester has more than 2 daily transatlantic flights, meaning that they should be able to support more than 1 each. No one is claiming that GLA and EDI should have the same service as MAN, just something that is actually based there.

Your conclusion missed the fact that without a hub airport the market fragments, meaning no critical mass. This was why many argued for a Central Scotland airport. I must say I am astonished that so many people are so knowledgable about my home. I wonder how many have spent any time on the ground......BLIMEY!

Quoting cosyr (Reply 22):
No one is claiming that GLA and EDI should have the same service as MAN, just something that is actually based there.

The market will not, has not and cannot support that.

Next?

[Edited 2013-04-10 08:11:51]

[Edited 2013-04-10 08:14:46]
 
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:19 pm

I note that the authority on countries, the UN, does not recognise England, Scotland, and Wales as independent countries. As such, they aren't separate members of the UN. Instead, it is simply the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."

[Edited 2013-04-10 08:24:34]
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nitepilot79
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:19 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 20):
but reality is that BA is the British Airline and apart from the Scottish separatists, they are still part of Britain and thus have British Airways.

My mistake. I was thinking Great Britain is made up of Wales and England only (thus the name" BA" not representing Scotland), and the United Kingdom as being made up of Wales, England, and Scotland. This I still contend:

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 19):
Scotland is the last place that comes to mind when I hear the name British Airways. I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't the only one who felt this way. There should be a more blatantly Scottish airline out there. IMHO
 
nitepilot79
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:23 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 21):

Scotland is not a "Country" any more than Texas is a country.....although folks from either would be happy to secede

   South Carolina too.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:35 pm

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 29):
My mistake. I was thinking Great Britain is made up of Wales and England only (thus the name" BA" not representing Scotland), and the United Kingdom as being made up of Wales, England, and Scotland. This I still contend:

You know SO little about our country yet you are still arguing???? Surely some basic context and knowledge is a pre-requisite?
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:06 pm

Quoting cosyr (Reply 22):
Except that Glasgow and Edinburgh from above there are each roughly half the size of Manchester, and Manchester has more than 2 daily transatlantic flights, meaning that they should be able to support more than 1 each. No one is claiming that GLA and EDI should have the same service as MAN, just something that is actually based there.

it's not simply about population size. if all of those millions of scots are sheep farmers, there isn't much need to jet off to NYC.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:10 pm

Quoting tockeyhockey (Reply 32):
it's not simply about population size. if all of those millions of scots are sheep farmers, there isn't much need to jet off to NYC.

That's complete garbage. We do not have millions of sheep farmers, try some basic research please.
 
romeobravo
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:24 pm

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 19):
Although, Scotland is the last place that comes to mind when I hear the name British Airways.

Really, the last place that comes to my mind when i hear the name British Airways would be Chad, certainly not one of the constituent countries and "founding members" of the Kingdom of Great Britain (as was).

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 21):
I do wonder why Scotland/Wales/England represent themselves as independents in World Cup play but not in the Olympics.

Basically because the teams of the home countries of the UK were too established by the time Fifa came along.
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:28 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 21):
Scotland is not a "Country" any more than Texas is a country.

Ridiculously ignorant to even suggest. Being part of a kingdom or union does not make the constiuent contries anything less. Here, first line and everything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland
 
romeobravo
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:35 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 35):
Being part of a kingdom or union does not make the constiuent contries anything less

What does the U stand for in USA again?

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 33):
We do not have millions of sheep farmers, try some basic research please.

Exactly, the Welsh are the ones with a strong affection for sheep. Scots are the Skirt-wearers   
 
SXDFC
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:43 pm

I am surprised no one mentioned Aer Lingus         I learned that one the hard way..

I've always thought it was British Airways, however that seems to be the debate here.. Maybe BA will take a few A320s and put the Scottish flag on the tail instead of the Union Jack.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 31):
You know SO little about our country yet you are still arguing????

From what I've seen ( I've never left the US ), Scotland seems like a beautiful country, and I hope to visit there one day.
 
brilondon
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:53 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 37):
I've always thought it was British Airways, however that seems to be the debate here.. Maybe BA will take a few A320s and put the Scottish flag on the tail instead of the Union Jack.

If you look at the Union Jack you can see that the Scottish flag is part of the Union Jack.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
romeobravo
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:01 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 37):
Maybe BA will take a few A320s and put the Scottish flag on the tail instead of the Union Jack.

The Scottish flag is in the Union Flag if you look very closely.

There was a tartan effort during the world flags period...


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nitepilot79
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:01 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 31):
You know SO little about our country yet you are still arguing???? Surely some basic context and knowledge is a pre-requisite?
Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 29):
My mistake. I was thinking Great Britain is made up of Wales and England only (thus the name" BA" not representing Scotland), and the United Kingdom as being made up of Wales, England, and Scotland. This I still contend:

I didn't conduct research because I thought I had the facts, plain and simple. I thought Scotland should have its own airline ONLY because the country APPEARS to have some unique and wonderful qualities that deserve to be recognized in a positive way, such as an individualized airline. No marginalization intended. No offense either.
 
nitepilot79
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:24 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 34):
Really, the last place that comes to my mind when i hear the name British Airways would be Chad,

Ok, you got me. I was being a bit dramatic, but when I hear the name "British", I think of England and Wales. Ignorant as this may be, NO marginalization or offense is intended towards anybody else, by me.
A lot of non-British people share this same misconception.
 
spud757
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:20 pm

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:46 pm

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 41):

A lot of British nationals don't fully understand the UKs historical and current geo-political structure.
I am both British and English.
But we are the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Great Britain (GB) being England, Scotland and Wales. Scotland has it's own devolved parliament from the UK. Wales and N.Ireland both have a devolved Assembly to govern from the UK. England, the largest of the GB/UK home nations, doesn't have a parliament or assembly. Confused? There's more...

The islands of jersey, guernsey and Isle of Man are all part of the British isles but not part of GB or the UK. They are independent with their own governments. But as British Crown dependencies the islanders are British citizens with a Britsh passport. These islands join the UK and the Republic of Ireland (Eire) to form the Common Travel Area (CTA) which is a similar arrangement to the Schengen travel area within mainland Europe. Although no passport is required within the CTA customs controls exist when travelling into Jersey & Guernsey.

Going back to the original post. Scotland has a couple of 'flag' carriers. On BA the flag of Scotland is incorporated within the UK flag colours carried on all BA aircraft. VS also fly the UK flag within aspects of their livery and they, unlike BA, fly (limited) international and more recently domestic routes to/from Scotland. We also had (until recently) BD whose aircraft wore the UK flag colours and flew to/from Scotland on international and domestic sectors.
Last but not least we have a Scottish airline, Loganair, flying for a British airline, BE.
 
bueb0g
Posts: 656
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:57 pm

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:02 pm

Quoting nitepilot79 (Thread starter):
I find it a bit of a surprise that Scotland doesn't have its own airline
Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 19):
There should be a more blatantly Scottish airline out there. IMHO

Even if the market doesn't support it? And there are "blatantly" Scottish airlines, just not the type you want.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 21):
Scotland is not a "Country" any more than Texas is a country.....although folks from either would be happy to secede.

Totally incorrect. Scotland is a country, Texas is not. Fact is fact. And *some* folks from either would be happy to secede, but certainly not a majority.

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 28):
I note that the authority on countries, the UN, does not recognise England, Scotland, and Wales as independent countries. As such, they aren't separate members of the UN. Instead, it is simply the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."

The UN is not the "authority on countries". Scotland is not a sovereign nation state and so would have no purpose being in the UN, as it is represented there by the legally superior UK, which is a sovereign nation state. Scotland is still, however, a country.

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 29):
and the United Kingdom as being made up of Wales, England, and Scotland. This I still contend:

You missed out Northern Ireland.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 31):
You know SO little about our country yet you are still arguing???? Surely some basic context and knowledge is a pre-requisite?

     

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 36):
What does the U stand for in USA again?

What does the S stand for in USA again?

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 40):
I thought Scotland should have its own airline ONLY because the country APPEARS to have some unique and wonderful qualities that deserve to be recognized in a positive way, such as an individualized airline. No marginalization intended. No offense either.

So the reason for there to be a dedicated "Scottish national airline", despite the lack of demand and the fact that it would probably be loss making, is so that Scotland can be "recognized in a positive way". I contend that Scotland definitely doesn't need Scottish Airways to be recongised positively.

Quoting spud757 (Reply 42):
I am both British and English.


     
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
tonystan
Posts: 1689
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:10 pm

The aviation industry is well developed. I'm sure if there was a sustainable market for a flagship carrier in Scotland there would be one.

But as things are there is not and we will simply see Loganair and Scot Airways flying in the colours of other more recognisable brands for the time being.

IMHO I would consider BA to be the 'Flag carrier' of Scotland as it would be for Northern Ireland, Emgland and even Wales even though it operates no services to it (although runs a significant maintenance operation there!).
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
nclmedic
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:25 pm

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:18 pm

Quoting JU068 (Reply 23):
Why are people insisting British Airways is the 'national carrier' of Scotland. It is a private company which means that easyJet, flybe or Monarch could be considered the same.

Because it *is* the flag carrier of the UK. e.g. The first sentence of this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 19):
So technically they do. Although, Scotland is the last place that comes to mind when I hear the name British Airways. I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't the only one who felt this way. There should be a more blatantly Scottish airline out there. IMHO

Why? British Airways is the flag carrier of the UK (aka the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland). Why should Scotland have it's 'own' airline, any more than Wales or Northern Ireland - we're all the same country. BA may be based in London but that's because most traffic is concentrated there.
 
User avatar
HELyes
Posts: 1637
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:26 am

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:26 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 18):
Despite its profile and the awareness of it, Scotland is a fairly small country (5.3M) (only 35%-50% of the population of London's metropolitan area) but that, in itself, is not an impediment to having an airline (Singapore = 5.3M, Hong Kong = 7M). However, the Scottish population is very spread out: 174/sq mi (versus 1000/sq mi in England, 19000/sq mi in Singapore and 16500/sq mi in Hong Kong)

Scotland and Finland have around the same population, but Finland is even more spread out, a lot more actually: 41/sq mi, the area is larger than UK. But yes, there is more competition in Scotland.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12559
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:04 pm

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 29):
I was thinking Great Britain is made up of Wales and England only

Great Britain is the name of the island, it's the 9th largest island in the world and the largest in Europe, it's also the largest of the British Isles, which includes Ireland and a few thousand others. Don't they teach geography where you come from?
 
User avatar
speedygonzales
Posts: 656
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:01 pm

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:35 pm

Quoting nitepilot79 (Thread starter):
It's a shame that such a beautiful and developed country doesn't seem have any presence in the air travel industry outside of its own borders.
Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 35):
Ridiculously ignorant to even suggest. Being part of a kingdom or union does not make the constiuent contries anything less.

Scotland ceased to be a country in 1707.
Ignorance kills. :tombstone:
 
ScottishDavie
Posts: 216
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:48 pm

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:24 pm

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 48):
Scotland ceased to be a country in 1707.

That's a spectacular example of how to be both ignorant and offensive in only eight words.

[Edited 2013-04-10 14:30:07]

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