bwaflyer
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:34 pm

Quoting spud757 (Reply 42):
BD whose aircraft wore the UK flag colours and flew to/from Scotland on international and domestic sectors.

Please don't forget the lovely folks at bmi regional, headquarters in Aberdeen. Still with the Union flag (not jack, it's not a boat) proudly on the tail!
 
asctty
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:01 pm

Quoting JU068 (Reply 23):
Why are people insisting British Airways is the 'national carrier' of Scotland. It is a private company which means that easyJet, flybe or Monarch could be considered the same.

You could also question exactly what a 'legacy carrier' is supposed to be? If it is a state-owned carrier that supposedly 'flies the national flag' then there are hardly any left. If it is one that used to, then Scotland has never had any in the first place and certainly not BCAL, Loganair or Scot Airways which were all only brand names.
BTW, I am Scottish and can suggest that the reason for this is the Scotland wasn't independent at the onset of aviation and still isn't. Maybe that's why there is no legacy flag carrier????  
 
Doona
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:01 pm

Or not. *Sigh*. Anyway, the UK office of national statistics states that Scotland is a country. Should be enough to kill that part of the debate. I dunno, google it or something.

Cheers
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ADent
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:07 pm

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 48):
Scotland ceased to be a country in 1707.

Texas stopped being a country in 1846.

And has its own legislature.

[Edited 2013-04-10 15:09:35]
 
skipness1E
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:08 pm

Quoting nclmedic (Reply 45):
British Airways is the flag carrier of the UK (aka the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland).

Flag carrier is an archaic term and adds nothing to this debate. Wiki is not a source to quote, ever if you're being serious.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 44):

But as things are there is not and we will simply see Loganair and Scot Airways flying in the colours of other more recognisable brands for the time being.

Scot Airways went back to Sucking and has been folded into the Logan AOC with Cambridge HQ now gone alas.

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 48):
Scotland ceased to be a country in 1707.

As did England, however that's your view, not ours. We are two countries, one principality and a provence and we are the United Kingdon of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as a nation state. It's not that difficult and Spud's splended post above made the position clear. Scotland and England very much remain countries within a larger nation state.

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 48):
Scotland ceased to be a country in 1707.

No points from the Norwegain jury again it seems.
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:20 pm

Quoting ScottishDavie (Reply 49):
That's a spectacular example of how to be both ignorant and offensive in only eight words.

Amen to that.
 
nitepilot79
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:32 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 47):
Don't they teach geography where you come from?

Guess I should watch more Jeopardy.   
 
jfk777
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:52 pm

Its is surprising that Emirates flies 777 from all the main UK regional airports but US airlines have such checkered history's at these airports. IS there that much more demand to Asia and Australia then to the colonies ?
 
ScottishDavie
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:10 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 57):
Its is surprising that Emirates flies 777 from all the main UK regional airports but US airlines have such checkered history's at these airports. IS there that much more demand to Asia and Australia then to the colonies ?

I don't pretend to have a definitive answer but the Scottish diaspora largely settled in countries that were part of the post 1783 British Empire. I'm pretty certain that many more Scots will have family in Hong Kong, Australia and New Zealand than in the USA. (I have family in HK and Oz as well as Canada). Transiting through DXB is generally perceived as preferable to LHR and Emirates' publicity department is well aware of that. There is a fair amount of charter traffic from Scotland to US holiday destinations but you're right about direct scheduled services having a checkered history.

[Edited 2013-04-10 17:19:30]
 
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Tugger
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:16 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 25):
If it's made in Scotland, it's 'Whisky'.

And if you call it that, you'd better pronounce it properly (no, not like "Wis-key", make sure that "H" is heard and and the end short).

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 27):
I am Scottish and British,

and not the least bit "Scotch"?    
Quoting bueb0g (Reply 43):
So the reason for there to be a dedicated "Scottish national airline", despite the lack of demand and the fact that it would probably be loss making, is so that Scotland can be "recognized in a positive way". I contend that Scotland definitely doesn't need Scottish Airways to be recongised positively.

But if it did have a airline to represent it, it would have to be loss making wouldn't it? I mean to properly represent Scotland..... OK I'll runaway now   

And I had better note that I very proudly claim the Scot part of me. My mum was full Scot (my dad's Dutch, and yes I am one of the cheapest people you could ever possibly meet   ), my gran'dad wore nothing under his kilt (except the time he tried to sneak that pineapple back to Scotland), and I grew up reading the Oor Wullie and The Broons. Great, great country it is, I have been fortunate enough to have visited there (mostly the Glasgow and Edinburgh portion) almost every year during my youth.

Tugg
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mpsrent
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:30 am

My wife proudly notes that she is both English and British. My friend proudly notes that he is both Scottish (Ranger supporter) and British. While the Brits are "United", they remain fiercely independent and proud of their respective nations. This dual nation mindset is a unique situation that many of us just aren't familiar with. It doesn't make it right or wrong, it's just different.

Me, I'm just Canadian.

While Scotland doesn't have a legacy carrier, fortunately it's a popular destination for airlines of the world. I've flown to Glasgow on Air Transat and Air Canada "rouge" is launching service soon to Edinburgh.

As for those who have some misguided impression that Scotland is a land of cold, rain and sheep, I've travelled extensively throughout the country and while it may be a small nation, it offers a wide range of amazing scenery and the people are wonderful.
 
tonystan
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:00 am

Quoting ScottishDavie (Reply 58):
I don't pretend to have a definitive answer but the Scottish diaspora largely settled in countries that were part of the post 1783 British Empire

I think you'll find that a lot of the traffic EK transports to/from its UK stations is as much to cater for the local diaspora as it is to cater for the Asian communities that have themselves settled in the UK.

From my own experience of watching the EK and EY flights departing from DUB in recent years I have been amazed at how half of the flights are catering for non nationals, I never realised how large our expat population was until these flights began to operate.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
nitepilot79
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:14 am

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 43):
So the reason for there to be a dedicated "Scottish national airline", despite the lack of demand and the fact that it would probably be loss making, is so that Scotland can be "recognized in a positive way". I contend that Scotland definitely doesn't need Scottish Airways to be recongised positively.
[/quote]

I truly never meant to be insulting and condescending. I had no idea how "recognized in a positive way" came across until it was already posted. I'm truly sorry.          



[quote=nitepilot79,reply=30]Quoting 26point2 (Reply 21):

Scotland is not a "Country" any more than Texas is a country.....although folks from either would be happy to secede

   South Carolina too

The part of this post that led to a response on my part was purely directed at South Carolina, in which I lived for 15 years. I have earned the right to talk some smack about SC and its secessionist tendencies.  
Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 56):
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 47):
Don't they teach geography where you come from?
Guess I should watch more Jeopardy.

nitepilot79:"Guess I should watch more Jeopardy" Pretty good self-flame  

[Edited 2013-04-10 19:18:07]
 
VC10er
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:03 am

A few tid bits...

My first flight in life was JFK to Prestwick on a BOAC VC-10 in 1966.

My first cousin was an "air hostess" for B-Cal. She had many stories. She was on a 3 holer to Rio once. (Did B-Cal actually fly from Scotland to GIG?) her BEST story was about a pax out of Iran I believe, but it's too disgusting to tell you all. Let's just say it included a bucket of soapy water and a brush handed to the pax by the Captain!

My second cousin is a Scottish engineer (like Scotty on the Enterprise) for over 20 years he flew non-stop to Dubai with hoards of his mates to work on oil machinery. I will ask him more about those flights.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
shuttle9juliet
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:06 am

I cannot wait to get shot down for this but my idea for a Scottish Airline, would perhaps be keep it small, have some sort of partner airline? Middle East one? Not an alliance but somebody to work with or bail you out!!!
A handful of used 757s and 767s flying to North America, Carribean, ie Toronto, Vancouver for the ex pats, and Orlando, Dominican for the average bucket and spade holidaymakers.( I am thinking along this new AirCanada concept)

Keep most of the Longhaul out off GLA and have a Norwegian concept out of EDI using a fleet of 738s ( not too big) but sustainable.
Ok can we steal the Caledonian ( BA livery) back ? Or will we call it ScottishAirlines with a classy logo, none of this blue and white St Andrews cross but something classy to stand out!!

Ok for the regional outfit we can call it??? Ok that's going too far!!

Ha ha you can dream can't you?
 
skipness1E
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:58 am

Google the central Scotland airport. Neither set of City Fathers would contemplate losing "their" airport. This was the reason Renfrew was replaced by Abbotsinch and not Prestwick.
Strategically it makes good sense but it's politically unaccapetable.

BCAL's only long haul from Scotland was JFK briefly from PIK in the 1970s and YYZ charters with DC10-10s in the 80s. GIG was never served believe me.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:33 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 69):
Google the central Scotland airport.

I like the proposed name Willaim Wallace International.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottis...t-william-wallace-airport-1-798269
 
VC10er
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:06 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 69):

Could B-Cal have done a charter run to Rio? I vividly recall my Scottish cousin, Lisa, flying there as an FA and being robbed as she entered her hotel. I must admit my cousin was prone to telling tall stories, but I think the Rio story was real. It would have been about 1977.

R
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
nclmedic
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:12 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 54):
Flag carrier is an archaic term and adds nothing to this debate. Wiki is not a source to quote, ever if you're being serious.

Will the Economist do you? http://www.economist.com/node/1011322 or http://www.economist.com/node/1957401

Archaic or not, the term 'flag-carrier' is often used to refer to (usually) pre-State owned airlines.

My point is that BA is generally regarded around the world, and within the UK, as *being* the flag-carrier (alright, national airline) of the UK, being previously nationalised.

And the real thrust of the post was not about that. BA *is* the legacy airline for Scotland (and England, Wales, and Northern Ireland).

But thanks for the sourcing tip - I'd hate to fall short of your editorial standards in future.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:46 pm

Quoting nclmedic (Reply 72):
Will the Economist do you?

After last week's comedy of errors on Heathrow? Actually, no.

Quoting nclmedic (Reply 72):

My point is that BA is generally regarded around the world, and within the UK, as *being* the flag-carrier (alright, national airline) of the UK, being previously nationalised.

Round the world, people think Scots wear skirts, talk like William Wallace in a rain sodden land with bonnie lassies and shortbread. Meanwhile those brave Irish rebels fight for freedom from the evil English and Wales is an enormous sea dwelling mammal. As for England, well that's all red phone boxes and jolly Policeman. None of this is in any way accurate either, British Airways is not the UK flag carrier in any sense of the word that is accurate.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 71):
Could B-Cal have done a charter run to Rio? I vividly recall my Scottish cousin, Lisa, flying there as an FA and being robbed as she entered her hotel. I must admit my cousin was prone to telling tall stories, but I think the Rio story was real. It would have been about 1977.

Only one I can think of is Argentina with Allie MacLeod and the national squad for the 1978 World Cup. I think it was a DC10-30 from PIK.
"We're on the march with Allie's Army,
We're going to the Argentines,
It'll really shake them up,
When we win the World Cup,
Oh Scotland are the greatest football team."

OK, we lost.
 
tonystan
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:55 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 65):
My first cousin was an "air hostess" for B-Cal. She had many stories. She was on a 3 holer to Rio once. (Did B-Cal actually fly from Scotland to GIG?) her BEST story was about a pax out of Iran I believe, but it's too disgusting to tell you all. Let's just say it included a bucket of soapy water and a brush handed to the pax by the Captain!
Quoting VC10er (Reply 71):
Could B-Cal have done a charter run to Rio? I vividly recall my Scottish cousin, Lisa, flying there as an FA and being robbed as she entered her hotel. I must admit my cousin was prone to telling tall stories, but I think the Rio story was real. It would have been about 1977.

BCAL where London Gatwick based at this time and all its South American (infact all of its Longhaul I think) operated from here!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:58 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 74):
BCAL where London Gatwick based at this time and all its South American (infact all of its Longhaul I think) operated from here!

I think RIO was a swap with BA just before the Falklands war for some African routes so not sure if they even flew to South America in the 70s.
 
tonystan
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:05 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 75):

Quoting tonystan (Reply 74):
BCAL where London Gatwick based at this time and all its South American (infact all of its Longhaul I think) operated from here!

I think RIO was a swap with BA just before the Falklands war for some African routes so not sure if they even flew to South America in the 70s.


They actually had a very profitable route network to South America that was established before the 80s to
Argentina, Peru, Brazil, Venezuala and Colombia. Unfortunately the Falklands war hit them hard and the ban from Argentina and Peru resulted in a lot of their network to that part of the world being curtailed and a look east for expansion!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:10 pm

Are you sure? Was it BA then that got the short straw with the pre Falklands swap, maybe I am misremembering. I recall they got the TriStar500s for the South American routes.
 
divemaster08
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:34 pm

Quoting cosyr (Reply 22):
Except that Glasgow and Edinburgh from above there are each roughly half the size of Manchester, and Manchester has more than 2 daily transatlantic flights, meaning that they should be able to support more than 1 each. No one is claiming that GLA and EDI should have the same service as MAN, just something that is actually based there.

I think this is your big reason that is a huge factor, the current locations of scotlands 2 major airports, are under 45 miles apart as the crow flies. With just a population of just around 5 million in the whole country thats a small amount of people to make these airports compete for, now try to think how an airline will compete for this!

To put it simple, as long as GLA and EDI exist, its a hard fight for a local airline to start up ops and fly to Europe and Internationally across the pond. Competition between the 2 airports would be hard for each. hence why some airlines find it easier to just serve one destination, but not the other. Also when you try and fly to the same destination from both airports, you better have a great yield on it!

If they had built the central Scottish airport (CSA) then things would be a different ballgame! CSA was to have great connections to both Edinburgh and Glasgow, and also would be easy for links from Stirling and Perth. This would also make it easier for routes to have better yields (due to the pulled catchment area for the new CSA airport).

Now with the greater catchment area, an airline would have probably no problem starting up the LCC ops and even LH ops. Other airlines would probably also look into flying into Scotland with the CSA.

HOWEVER, now that these plans were made around 30 years ago and nothing was done, I highly doubt it is now suitable to start the CSA airport. Same argument now about LHR and LGW, 30 years ago if London started building its Estuary Mega Airport, it would probably make sense now. However these are probably at least 5-10 years away from being an actual airport, which IMO is probably too far away in the future now to make these changes
My dream, is to fly, over the rainbow, so high!
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:36 pm

During the 1980's Northwest Orient flew JFK-SNN-PIK and BOS-SNN-PIK and some days each week there were nonstops between PIK and either JFK or BOS. We flew them with 747-100/200's and boy, were they full! Later, NW made the decision to move operations to GLA with the DC-10's and traffic just sort of went away and so did we, eventually. I am not sure if AA flies 757's from GLA to BOS. NW always claimed there was "no yield" even though the planes were full.

PIK is a vastly underutilized resource! And the beautiful little towns around there--Ayr, Kilmarnock, etc are full of the nicest most generous people you will ever meet. We laid over in Ayr and had a blast--lots of good shopping, decent restaurants and gorgeous views over the water towards Northern Ireland. I miss the place. The lady who ran the little gift shop in our hotel would handknit Argyle sweaters for us--I still have mine.

I used to laugh when I was picking up dinner trays and these lovely Scottish ladies would apologize for not having finished their peas because they gave them gas. Never had a passenger issue on a PIK flight.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
jfk777
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:45 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 69):

BCAL's only long haul from Scotland was JFK briefly from PIK in the 1970s and YYZ charters with DC10-10s in the 80s. GIG was never served believe me.

British Caledonain had extensive routes to South America, including a northern route to Caracas and Bogota plus a South one to Rio, EZE and SCL. BA and British CAL switched the South American routes for Saudi Arabia in the early 1980's.
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:49 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 33):
That's complete garbage. We do not have millions of sheep farmers, try some basic research please.

i never said you did.

my point was that it's more than just population size. it's industry. if the dominant industries in a particular country do require international travel in order to thrive, then it doesn't matter how big your city/country is in terms of population. there are cities in china, for instance, with tens of millions of people who don't have international service. because they don't need them. and then there are places like hong kong and singapore, where there are only a few million people but they have massive international travel.
 
SKAirbus
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:05 pm

The problem Scotland has is that it has no hub capabilities at the moment. Edinburgh and Glasgow airports split the traffic between them and the set-ups at both airports is not really transfer-friendly.

In addition compared to some cities like HEL, with only one international airport, there are not as many overflying opportunities. Most flights froms the most populated areas of Europe are more likely to overfly central and southern England as opposed to Scotland although there could be opportunities for some West Coast US/Canadian flights.

I've always said that Scotland should ditch GLA and EDI and built a stronger hub-airport between the two with a high-speed rail link connecting to both cities. This will almost double the catchment area and thus attract more international routes to more destinations. It could also provide more of a transfer hub for any airline that chooses to set up there.

However, the Scottish government are not known for successful investments with Holyrood and the Edinburgh Tramway being prime examples so maybe this could be more of a sound investment! Close GLA and EDI and open a dual-runway Scottish hub airport where traffic can be concentrated and connectivity expanded.
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vv701
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:23 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 37):
Maybe BA will take a few A320s and put the Scottish flag on the tail instead of the Union Jack.

The blue on the tail of BA's aircraft is directly derived from the Scottish Saltire - the flag of Scotland - which is, of course a significant part of the Union Flag:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Scotland

Quoting spud757 (Reply 42):
The islands of jersey, guernsey and Isle of Man are all part of the British isles but not part of GB or the UK. They are independent with their own governments.

To confuse everybody even more none of these "British" islands are part of the EU! This becomes even more confusing if you look at a passport issued to, for example, a Jersey resident. It looks like an EU passport because it is the same colour and size as passports issued to EU citizens. Indeed on the front cover it reads "European Union. British Islands. Balwick of Jersey." But inside it says "holder is not entitled to benefit from European Community Provisions relating to employment or establishment" because Jersey passport holders are not EU citizens!

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 47):
Great Britain is the name of the island, it's the 9th largest island in the world and the largest in Europe, it's also the largest of the British Isles, which includes Ireland and a few thousand others. Don't they teach geography where you come from?

Apparently not.

Great Britain is not the name of an island. In addition to mainland Great Britain, Great Britain also includes 53 other inhabited islands. These include the Inner and Outer Hebrides and the Isle of Arran off the west Scottish coast, the Orkney and Shetland Islands off the north Scottish coast, Anglesey off the north Welsh coast, the Scilly Islands off the southwest of England, the Isle of Wight off the south English coast and the Isle of Sheppey in the Thames estuary.
 
ghYHZ
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:52 pm

For years Air Canada stopped in Prestwick on the Halifax–Heathrow route before it was transferred to GLA around 1990. Originally a Super Constalation......then DC8, L1011 and finally a '767. Now it's non-stop YHZ-LHR with a connection to GLA.

Gary (ghYHZ)
New Glasgow, New Scotland (Nova Scotia)
 
Baexecutive
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:31 pm

I think the old saying if it ain't broke why fix it springs to mind.

Scotland does have its own airline, albeit a small regional one flying under the colours of a more recognised brand flybe.

With regards to its own 'legacy' airline, what would be the point or buy-in for people to fly it when they have the choice to fly full fare with one stop to more International destinations than anywhere else from LHR with BA or conversely direct to Europe with a LCC? Taking into account many Scots are driven by price, why would they choose to fly with an inevitably more expensive Scottish brand?

From a company point of view, where would they be based? Like so many have said, there are two airports within a relatively short distance of each other (three if you include PIK) with different markets, EDI more business/tourist oriented and GLA more charter market based, both with frequent flights to London (Flyglobespan couldn't make a GLA/LON route work). This new airline would need to offer frequent flights to make it a credible alternative to the existing carriers not to mention a loyalty programme for frequent flyers, what alliance if any would it join?

I am from Glasgow and remember the days when Loganair flew Fokkers and 146s all over the UK, even claiming to fly to more destinations from MAN than anyone else. I would like nothing more than to see Scotland having its own strong 'National carrier' similar to Aer Lingus, however with strong LCCs and a flag carrier already in place it is very unlikely to happen.

From a personal point of view, I would love to see Loganair in their own colours again, the aircraft could be named after famous scots and have their faces on the tail similar to Norwegian, with an investment from another airline operating a similar set up to that of BA Cityflyer at LCY. A handful of jet aircraft to start with (perhaps EMB 190s) flying to Europe during the week and chartered out to Holiday destinations on the weekend. Both GLA/EDI consolidated into one airport, by closing one and providing a fast train link to the other city.

As far as long haul goes, I don't see a strong market for this and it is also very expensive to maintain (I think this is where Flyglobespan went wrong).

Just out of interest, does anyone know what percentage of transatlantic passengers flying Aer Lingus/Icelandair actually originate in Ireland/Iceland?
 
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Tugger
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RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:53 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 65):
My first flight in life was JFK to Prestwick on a BOAC VC-10 in 1966.

Wow, that brings back memories (and probably where I developed my love and fascination with aviation). I flew BOAC several times before they disappeared. The VC-10 for my first fight over to Scotland, then the Super VC-10 the next year. I still count the VC-10 as one of my favorite aircraft. My last BOAC flight was on a 747.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 83):
The problem Scotland has is that it has no hub capabilities at the moment. Edinburgh and Glasgow airports split the traffic between them and the set-ups at both airports is not really transfer-friendly.

What always surprises me is just how close the two airports are, just over 40 miles apart. I can drive that much just getting around town in a day.

As others have mentioned I think it would really change and improve things if they could actually develop a "central" airport between the two cities, but I suspect politics and local pride will not make that happen easily.

Tugg

[Edited 2013-04-11 11:46:23]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:23 pm

Scotland has a "legacy" airline: BA. The Scotish are just as British as the English are.

Some people are confusing "legacy" airline with Flag Carrier. That is BA too.

The simple fact is that Scotland does not have the people, J-class market, and geography to have its own true airline; that is why there are none.

Longair is under the BE brand.
 
Baexecutive
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:29 pm

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:33 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 89):

I agree with you, BA operate more services to Scotland than any other airline, has a maintenance base at GLA and a crew base for BA Cityflyer in EDI...not to mention employing many Scots who commute to London as crew!

Loganair is a separate entity from flybe, it flies under their colours in a franchise agreement. Loganair is a Scottish airlone based in Glasgow, serving Scotland primarily due to its geography!
 
COEWR787
Posts: 364
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:37 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 5):
Does not UA operate EWR-EDI? Delta, please come back to EDI.

UA flies twice a day EWR - EDI on many days of a week. Not sure if it is daily.
 
David_itl
Posts: 6396
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:59 pm

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 90):
BA operate more services to Scotland than any other airline

Do they serve any other cities other than London?
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12562
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:27 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 85):
I don't think it is.
Trust me it is. It's also the largest island in Europe, the 9th largest in the world and the largest island in the British Isles.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 85):
The land mass is the British Isles unless your Irish in which case it's not.

The British Isles even if you are Irish includes Great Britain, Ireland, Shetlands, Channel Islands, Isle of Man and several thousand more.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9700
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:32 pm

Here this might help (or it might not):


Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
User avatar
speedygonzales
Posts: 657
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:01 pm

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:17 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 82):
Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 48):
Scotland ceased to be a country in 1707.

No, it did not. It is still a country.

In that case so is Bremen.
Ignorance kills. :tombstone:
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4646
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:26 pm

Ireland does not consider itself part of the British Isles 
Honestl

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 96):
In that case so is Bremen.

I think your cheeky wee signature

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 96):

Las Malvinas son Argentinas

tells us what you think so I don't see any point debating with the nice man from Norway. If the Falklands are Argentine despite having never been settled by them and by having a British civilian population, then the Channel Islands are French   England and Scotland came together as two independent countries into a new nation state in which both remain. Both maintain seperate legal systems and indeed now have semi-seperate legislatures, share a single currency, a single central bank and numerous banks printing currency. I am a Scot, British citizen and a Londoner. The order changes depending on where I happen to be.

Why does a Norwegian have a signature provoking reaction about a war between Britain and Argentina btw?
 
tonystan
Posts: 1689
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:39 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 97):
Ireland does not consider itself part of the British :

Yeah we do!!! We're just not British, we can decipher the difference between being part of the British Isles or being part of Britain! It seems to be the rest of the world that has difficulty with that one!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4646
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:38 pm

Sorry Tony, I got a bollocking from some Irish mates for suggesting Ireland was part of the British Isles as a land mass and they went to town on me   seems to be a recent thing? Maybe they're just getting PC.
 
rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:21 am

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:56 pm

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 96):
Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 82):
Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 48):
Scotland ceased to be a country in 1707.

No, it did not. It is still a country.

In that case so is Bremen.

I'll take your word for it since I really don't care.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 97):
Why does a Norwegian have a signature provoking reaction about a war between Britain and Argentina btw?

And the username of a Mexican mouse?

[Edited 2013-04-11 17:52:09]
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
TeamintheSky
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:18 am

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:16 am

Another conversation gone awry....

I will say, I work in London and work with a number of financial firms based in Glasgow and Edinburgh. For Scotland's relatively small population and economy, they have an impressive amount of private equity and hedgefund investment, which is growing rapidly. Inevitibly in discussion with Scottish clients, they whinge about the lack of direct service from GLA or EDI. Interestingly, even when going to the US, they typically transit through AMS on KL even though they will openly conceed that BA's product is much better.

They contend it is still too difficult to connect through LHR and that flight connections are not as ideal for their purposes. I haven't pressed them any further, but I thought that flights from Edinburgh and Glasgow to LHR were fairly regular as to make connecitons easy. Is my assumption not correct?

Regards,

Team
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG, AA, JL, W6
 
tonystan
Posts: 1689
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:40 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 99):

Yeah but we're born wind up artists too.....anything to wind up the Toffs!!!!!
Top tip, were part of the British Isles, but if you're British don't remind an Irish man of it !
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
26point2
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:10 am

Boy..this really touched a nerve.

Sorry about my lack of Scottish history and the "..Scotland is not a country.." remark. When I think of an independent country I imagine a dedicated passport, a currency (I remember years ago seeing a Scottish Pound Sterling note..not sure if this is still legal tender), stamps, border/immigration control, and all the rest.

I respect the Scotsman's independence but from the outside Scotland doesn't appear to be a country...even though it is.

Standing by for aggressive retort.
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2339
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:06 am

What an awesome thread  
Quoting moo (Reply 9):
Prestwick Airport - 1.1Million passengers in 2012

And even FR cant really make a go of this place today.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 16):
Come to think of it there was Donaldson's with B707s but not sure if they ever went long haul?

They did, JFK & YYZ and also Far East, but equally from LGW (where they were latterly anyway officially based) as GLA. Seems they were a bit of a shambles for most of their existance.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 54):
Scot Airways went back to Sucking

Hired F/A's from GLA? Sorry   
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
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nighthawk
Posts: 4867
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 2:33 am

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:24 am

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 94):
They contend it is still too difficult to connect through LHR and that flight connections are not as ideal for their purposes. I haven't pressed them any further, but I thought that flights from Edinburgh and Glasgow to LHR were fairly regular as to make connecitons easy. Is my assumption not correct?

This might be a historic thing more than anything else. Prior to the construction of Terminal 5, transferring through heathrow was a nightmare. Domestic flights arrived at T1(?) (in the center of the airfield) while international flights left from T4 (side of the airfield), getting between the two was not easy, and as such many people chose to avoid LHR for connections.

Now that T5 has opened, most flights have been consolidated in the one terminal, and now you can connect much easier, however many people still choose to avoid LHR and hold on to the image of it being a place that is difficult to connect through.

BA currently operate about 12 flights a day from Edinburgh to Heathrow, and quite a few from Glasgow too, do frequency isnt an issue. KLM only operate about 4 flights for comparison.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 96):
I respect the Scotsman's independence but from the outside Scotland doesn't appear to be a country...even though it is.

Scotland and England were two separate countries, who decided to set up a joint parliament to run both countries. Scotland and England were then considered to be "constituent countries" of the United Kingdom.

Don't feel bad - even the lawyers seem to be arguing over whether we are a country or not. There is a lot of debate going on at the moment over whether an independent Scotland would automatically be a member of the EU or not, and it all hinges on whether Scotland is currently a country or not. Some argue we are NOT a country, but part of the UK. As such on becoming independent we would "succeed" from the UK and become a new country - and would need to re-apply to be an EU member.

Others argue that we are already a country, and that we simply entered an agreement to have a joint parliament with another country, so to become independent we would end this agreement, and return to being a separate country - in such a case we would remain part of the EU.

It's interesting to see that most people here seem to agree that Scotland is currently a country, in which case we would remain part of the EU on independence.

This thread is already way off topic, so lets not turn it into a debate about Scottish independence as well!

EDIT: There seems there is not really a universally agreed definition of the term "country".
http://geography-site.co.uk/pages/countries/country_definition.html

Although Wikipedia has a good definition:

A country is a region legally identified as a distinct entity in political geography. A country may be an independent sovereign state or one that is occupied by another state, as a non-sovereign or formerly sovereign political division, or a geographic region associated with sets of previously independent or differently associated peoples with distinct political characteristics. Regardless of the physical geography, in the modern internationally accepted legal definition as defined by the League of Nations in 1937 and reaffirmed by the United Nations in 1945, a resident of a country is subject to the independent exercise of legal jurisdiction.

Sometimes the word country is used to refer both to sovereign states and to other political entities,[1][2][3] while other times it refers only to states.[4] For example, the CIA World Factbook uses the word in its "Country name" field to refer to "a wide variety of dependencies, areas of special sovereignty, uninhabited islands, and other entities in addition to the traditional countries or independent states".[5][Note 1]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country

[Edited 2013-04-12 01:44:22]

[Edited 2013-04-12 01:46:44]
 
sierra3tango
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:59 pm

RE: Why No Legacy Airline For Scotland?

Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:04 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 53):
Texas stopped being a country in 1846.

And has its own legislature.

Thought Texas was the only State in the Union that had the right (on certain conditions) to succeed

There is / was a building in London's Trafalgar Square which is / was called Texas House. It was the country of Texas embassy in Great Britain. My information might be out of date but in the 1990's this building was rented out mostly as offices and all rental agreements had a clause in them, words to the effect, if Texas becomes an independent country then you (as tenant) have ?? months to vacate!

Also seem to recall that Bavaria (in Germany) had or has the right to succeed from Germany, but again my info might be out of date with re unification

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