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cloudboy
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Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:33 pm

What is the shortest route the Q400 or ATR operates profitably? What is the shortest distance it would be reasonable to operate with such an aircraft?

There are lots of cases where there are relatively close cities with some traffic between them that are too close for regular airliner service, but which driving becomes a chore. I am thinking those in the 3 to 5 hour range (note I am going by time, as 3 hours in Texas is very different than three hours in Maine). There really is nothing on the market now for an airline ot start servicing real small routes. They would either have to go with used equipment or use larger aircraft. But since it is getting harder and harder to get between these cities, fuel is going up so driving is no longer attractive, and there is no investment in other transport options, how could you service this market?
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
Rufusisgod
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:39 pm

Dublin - Isle of Man is 82 miles. Normally operated by an ATR42 but has the 72 on it sometimes.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:43 pm

LWS-PUW is 26 miles on QX. It's a circle route or tag-on but certainly has to be one of the shortest Q400 routes anywhere.
 
geg2rap
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:43 pm

puw-lws
about 30 miles
 
MountainFlyer
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:48 pm

BLI, EAT, and YKM are 81, 85, and 89 nm from SEA, respectively, and are all flown by AS/QX. BLI is only 1.5 hour drive and EAT and YKM are both only about 2.5 hr drives.
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BestWestern
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:04 am

Air Tahiti fly

Faa'a International Airport (PPT) to Moorea Airport (MOZ) is 12 miles and is operated by an ATR
Bora Bora Airport (BOB) to Raiatea Airport (RFP) is 29 miles and is operated by an ATR

These are their sole 15 minute scheduled services. they have plenty of 20 and 25 minute scheduled ATR services.

Their schedule is located here: http://www.airtahiti.aero/downloads.php
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connies4ever
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:07 am

ACX YVR- YYJ is I believe about 28 miles, and will have a single Q400 on the route daily as of June The other frequencies are a mix of DH1s and DH3s.
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:13 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 6):
ACX YVR- YYJ is I believe about 28 miles, and will have a single Q400 on the route daily as of June The other frequencies are a mix of DH1s and DH3s.

However, YYJ-SEA is always an QX Q400 at 98 miles
 
oosnowrat
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:31 am

QX used to operate IDA-PIH with the Q400, too. 50 miles.
 
Passedv1
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:53 am

HAL's HNL-MKK will be only 48 miles.
 
roberts87
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:18 am

JER-GCI sees a few Q400's from FlyeBe and ATR's from Aurigny Air. That's 24 miles!
 
BrusselsSouth
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:33 am

Quoting roberts87 (Reply 10):
JER-GCI sees a few Q400's from FlyeBe and ATR's from Aurigny Air. That's 24 miles!

Was about to mention that one. Flew the route in 15 minutes back in 2010 in a Jetstream 32, must be one of the shortest ATR routes at 21nm!

http://info.flightmapper.net/en/route/yy_jer_gci

Regards
BrusselsSouth
 
koruman
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:09 am

I've flown PPT-MOZ: ten minutes gate to gate!
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:55 pm

i think the original poster is asking sort of a different question, one in the american context. i.e. where is the limit where driving in the US surpasses air travel for effectiveness.

i think of it this way -- would you rather fly from DC to NYC or drive? i say drive, despite the fact that it's probably a slugfest the entire way up and back. the airport considerations are still too daunting (security, parking, shuttle, car rental, etc.)

i'd like to think that because of our rather well developed high way system, ATRs on short routes between closely placed cities could never be much more than feeder routes. if you're in MKE and need to get to ORD, i'm guessing you drive. but if you're in MKE and need to get anywhere else, you fly to ORD.

i wonder if any smart young person has done some analytics on this... i.e. what is the measured distance at which air travel supersedes driving in the US (or in other countries) in the consumer's mind.
 
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spiplane
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:04 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 12):

Does this mean Air Moorea (which I flew several years back) have finally disappeared? Their website still exists, but has been saying they stopped flying the route from October 2010 onwards. Guess someone forgot to remove the page!
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cal764
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:06 pm

A few years back I flew on a CO Q400 EWR-BDL don't know for sure whether its still operated but I seem to recall maybe 15mins in the air..got to fly over my hometown of New Milford roughly 8,000'. Kinda kit home when 3207 went down about a month later.. RIP
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Markam
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:11 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 5):
Air Tahiti fly

Faa'a International Airport (PPT) to Moorea Airport (MOZ) is 12 miles and is operated by an ATR
Bora Bora Airport (BOB) to Raiatea Airport (RFP) is 29 miles and is operated by an ATR

These are their sole 15 minute scheduled services. they have plenty of 20 and 25 minute scheduled ATR services.

Their schedule is located here: http://www.airtahiti.aero/downloads.php

  

I believe that this is the correct answer, or at least I cannot think of any shorter route operated by those types. I am not sure whether VT operate PTT-MOZ with the ATR72 or the ATR42, although my guess is that they probably operate it with both, as if I recall correctly many times this leg is operated as a tag-on on flights to other destinations in French Polynesia from PPT which probably are operated with both types to begin with.
 
ouboy79
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:13 pm

Quoting cloudboy (Thread starter):
What is the shortest route the Q400 or ATR operates profitably? What is the shortest distance it would be reasonable to operate with such an aircraft?
Quoting tockeyhockey (Reply 13):
i think the original poster is asking sort of a different question, one in the american context. i.e. where is the limit where driving in the US surpasses air travel for effectiveness.

Yeah, nearly every single response here totally ignored the actual question. Reading is hard. :-P

To actually address the question I think it is hard to say which route specifically unless the airlines are willing to part with that information - which many won't. As far as what distance would be reasonable, it would come down to drive time versus total travel time (parking to check in to gate to flight and all the ground stuff again). A lot of factors will go into it.
 
Luxair747SP
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:31 pm

LUX-SCN with 50miles is flown every day a couple of times
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 17):
To actually address the question I think it is hard to say which route specifically unless the airlines are willing to part with that information - which many won't. As far as what distance would be reasonable, it would come down to drive time versus total travel time (parking to check in to gate to flight and all the ground stuff again). A lot of factors will go into it.

and of course price... at what level are people willing to pay to give up their cars? yes, gas costs money and tolls cost money, but people don't think about that as they go necessarily.

all i can say is that personally it would be very hard for me to justify a flight if a drive is anything less than four hours. even a 45 minute flight is really a four hour time commitment. and a costlier one at that.

in fact, i remember a time when i flew from hilton head to philadelphia (about a 12 hour drive). because of a connection in CLT, the flight ended up taking 10 hours when you calculated in layover, drive time to the airport, transportation home, etc. driving would have probably been better.
 
cloudboy
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:44 pm

It's been a while since I flew Cape Air. But from what I remember, you didn't really have to go through the full security process. And here is where I am looking at a small aircraft. If the flight were to fly point to point, no connections, different terminal from the rest, would passengers still have to go through the typical screening process?

I suppose you are right on length. There are some cases - the inter island flights, for instance, where the plane is really the only option so it flies absurdly short flights. But in those cases they are not necessarily financially viable, they are simple necessities that the government needs to support. What are the shortest flights where aircraft is just one of the transportation alternatives?
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
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Spacepope
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:48 pm

DEN-COS comes in at 73 miles, flown by Q400s as well as CRJ2/7 and E190 (I think). Sad thing is it used to be flown by a DC-10 way back when.
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ouboy79
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:14 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 21):
DEN-COS comes in at 73 miles

Does that answer the OPs questions? Not singling you out, but it just seems people aren't even bother reading.

Quoting tockeyhockey (Reply 19):
in fact, i remember a time when i flew from hilton head to philadelphia (about a 12 hour drive). because of a connection in CLT, the flight ended up taking 10 hours when you calculated in layover, drive time to the airport, transportation home, etc. driving would have probably been better.

I think a lot of these factors tend to play into the ability for any short hop airline to get going using these aircraft to do a point to point network.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:25 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 22):
Quoting Spacepope (Reply 21):
DEN-COS comes in at 73 miles

Does that answer the OPs questions? Not singling you out, but it just seems people aren't even bother reading.

Perhaps the title could have been better worded then.

Quoting cal764 (Reply 15):
Kinda kit home when 3207 went down about a month later.. RIP

It was 3407.  
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:42 pm

Quoting tockeyhockey (Reply 13):
i think the original poster is asking sort of a different question, one in the american context. i.e. where is the limit where driving in the US surpasses air travel for effectiveness.

i think of it this way -- would you rather fly from DC to NYC or drive? i say drive, despite the fact that it's probably a slugfest the entire way up and back. the airport considerations are still too daunting (security, parking, shuttle, car rental, etc.)
Quoting Kgaiflyer (Reply 7):
YYJ-SEA is always an QX Q400 at 98 miles

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay.

YYJ-YVR by ferry is just under 2 hours.

YVR-SEA at 140 highway miles -- including a stop at the Canada-USA border crossing of undetermined length -- would be about 3 hours. So that's 5 hours altogether.

So the QX Q400 (40 minute -- 98 air mile flight across Puget Sound) is a real time saver.
 
ouboy79
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:49 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 23):
Perhaps the title could have been better worded then.

Agreed. Should probably be Shortest Q400/AT7 Profitable Route or something of that nature..
 
BestWestern
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:42 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 26):
Should probably be Shortest Q400/AT7 Profitable Route or something of that nature..

Probably still the Air Tahiti example - flown three times a day.
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Spacepope
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:11 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 22):
Does that answer the OPs questions? Not singling you out, but it just seems people aren't even bother reading.

Well, it is amongst the shortest Q400 routes, so it is on topic...

And reading is for nerds and stuff anyway.  
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koruman
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:24 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 12):
I've flown PPT-MOZ: ten minutes gate to gate!
Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 17):
Yeah, nearly every single response here totally ignored the actual question. Reading is hard. :-P
Quoting cloudboy (Thread starter):
What is the shortest route the Q400 or ATR operates profitably? What is the shortest distance it would be reasonable to operate with such an aircraft?

I answered the question.

There is a ferry from Papeete to Moorea, yet still Air Tahiti flies it three times daily in an ATR-72 because there is enough profit to be made. There is nothing stopping them from reducing frequency or pulling out if they so wished.
 
cloudboy
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:18 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 22):

Does that answer the OPs questions? Not singling you out, but it just seems people aren't even bother reading.

I appreciate the support. But in a way I think it does. I probably should have better formulated the title of the post, but I was looking for actual flown routes, not just theory. I did not think about inter island routes initially, which I now realize makes up a whole sub-category of short haul flights. However it seems like some of the AS routes do fit into my original question.

Interesting about the DEN to COS route. Is that a profitable route, or just a way to increase aircraft utilization?
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:54 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 28):
There is a ferry from Papeete to Moorea, yet still Air Tahiti flies it three times daily in an ATR-72 because there is enough profit to be made. There is nothing stopping them from reducing frequency or pulling out if they so wished.

i don't think that should count, since it's not competing with rail or road traffic.
 
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yellowtail
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:02 am

CO used to operate ATRs on intra-houston flights...IAH-HOU/EFD.
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Spacepope
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RE: Shortest Q400 Or ATR72 Route

Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:52 am

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 29):

Interesting about the DEN to COS route. Is that a profitable route, or just a way to increase aircraft utilization?

It's mostly to get people to F9s hub from COS. By road, it can easily take an hour and a half (I'm on the north side of town, and it's 114 miles to DEN by road), plus tolls and the inevitable traffic jams. Looks like I quoted statute miles, it's actually 63NM DEN-COS.
The last of the famous international playboys

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