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Dogbreath
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:59 am

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 49):
It's now been established that the rotation point is 4km from the tower view so you wouldn't be able to see detail like a tail striking off the ground.

Ever heard of binoculars??

I'm not, nor have I ever been an Air Traffic Controller, but during my military days, spent quite a bit of time hanging out with my ATC mates in the control tower, and in every case the tower controller had his/her eyes on the departing/arriving traffic from take off roll to airborne and vice versa. Funnily enough they used binoculars from time to time. But hey!! Admittedly I've never been in a Spanish tower, so can't comment on their procedures.


Quoting PW100 (Reply 48):
ATC will not necessarily look at each aircraft during rotation. They do have many things to worry about, and many responsibilities. However visual check confirmation that none of the 700 daily departures experiences a tail strike is definitely not one of them.

Can you confirm that with fact?

Whether we like it or not, the facts are that a departing aircraft suffered a tailstrike and fragged the runway. According to reliable sources several aircraft were then cleared to depart from the same runway. Unfortunately one of those aircraft then suffered nosewheel damage caused by the contaminated runway state. Is this acceptable in this day and age? In my opinion NO not ever.

[Edited 2013-04-18 04:15:10]
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:09 am

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 50):
I'm not, nor have I ever been an Air Traffic Controller, but during my military days, spent quite a bit of time hanging out with my ATC mates in the control tower, and in every case the tower controller had his/her eyes on the departing/arriving traffic from take off roll to airborne and vice versa. Funnily enough they used binoculars from time to time. But hey!! Admittedly I've never been in a Spanish tower, so can't comment on their procedures.

To be fair, I've been in both NATS and RAF towers in the UK, and the procedures in this area do seem to be different. I can't say with any certainty if there are, indeed, different requirements. BUT I have seen RAF controllers watching everything as you describe (yes, with binoculars if necessary) whereas NATS [i.e. civilian] don't. Indeed it appeared to me that NATS controllers won't necessarily even be looking at the runway once they've issued clearance, as they might well have to play with strips etc.
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Dogbreath
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:26 am

Thanks RyanairGuru. I've been informed by a mate that some of the major airfields have a ground based radar that scans the runways for debris. Do they have such a device in Madrid? If so was it being used?

For those who've never seen binoculars in use before.

www.airliners.net/uf/78503/thumbs/phpKGM4SA.png" width="100" height="63" border="0"/>
Big version: Width: 1280 Height: 800 File size: 823kb
Big version: Width: 1280 Height: 800 File size: 823kb


[Edited 2013-04-18 05:27:41]
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:21 pm

Well I did not want to jump for conclusions but there are some facts emerging, PX on that plane:

All of them they were kept out of the loop, meaning there was no announcement from the crew as what was going on. One FA sufered a neck injury due to the strike, the other had a nervous breakdown. (those were the 2 admisions to hospitals in MAD).
There was calm on board but the plane kept going and everyone was nervous, after they passed 10000 feet, the oxigen mask deployed and the 767 headed back to MAD, some pax crying and a very tense atmosphere in the plane and a weird smell. FA running around with oxygen masks and tanks, but ZERO INFO to pax.

They Landed and PAX were cursing the Crew, some were taking pictures of the damage and one noticed extensive damage to the left main landing gear.

I my opinion, the whole ordeal was handle unprofessionally by the crew, and MAD tower must get someone to learn how to use binoculars or change procedures about runway debris.

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/917513.html

Just look at the damage!!! holy cow!

TRB
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Clydenairways
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:17 pm

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 50):

Ever heard of binoculars??

I'm not, nor have I ever been an Air Traffic Controller, but during my military days, spent quite a bit of time hanging out with my ATC mates in the control tower, and in every case the tower controller had his/her eyes on the departing/arriving traffic from take off roll to airborne and vice versa. Funnily enough they used binoculars from time to time. But hey!! Admittedly I've never been in a Spanish tower, so can't comment on their procedures.

I'm sure they have binoculars but i've not seen any busy civilian airport where the entire take-off roll, rotation and initial climb out of each movement is observed in it's entirety by ATC personnel.

The deficiencies of ATC in Madrid are well discussed but i fail to see any of this applying to this incident given the facts available so far.
 
Summa767
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:28 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 53):
I my opinion, the whole ordeal was handle unprofessionally by the crew, and MAD tower must get someone to learn how to use binoculars or change procedures about runway debris.

There is certainly a question as to how the crew managed the situation and in particular with communicating what was going on. If that lack of communication prevented the runway inspection and so caused the Air Europa incident it is serious in itself. After reading the passenger accounts, one by a passenger who claims that he was sitting in the first row, of a loud impact on take off, it cannot be that the crew did not realise there was a tail strike.
If they did intend to go on to cross the pond hoping for the best and only stopped in their tracks by the de-pressurisation, it would be very worrying indeed.

On the MAD ATC, I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to follow with binoculars every take off. The tower is very far away and even with binoculars in rainy or foggy days, any smoke from a tail strike would not be seen.
It is crews that have to report any debris problems that they encounter.
There is still a question on whether there was a delay in getting the runway checked after an Air Europa crew (not the one of the incident) reported seeing objects on it. All of that will have to be investigated.
 
AR385
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:59 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 53):
I my opinion, the whole ordeal was handle unprofessionally by the crew,

So far the only basis you have to say that, are statements from passengers and maybe a hysterical FA. So far you have no idea how complicated the situation was for the cockpit crew.

1) Maybe they had no time to communicate with the passengers
2) Maybe the PA system was disabled, as the impact with the runway if we are to believe the passengers, was very hard.

Just two plausible scenarios I´m throwing out there.

I´m not saying you are wrong. Maybe they WERE unprofessonal. I´m just saying it´s too early to say that.
 
AM744
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 53):
I my opinion, the whole ordeal was handle unprofessionally by the crew,

I'm extremely worried and upset by this. Would the unions have something to do with this? As in 'save yourselves and we'll deal with it later'. By all accounts, the crew left the passengers on their own in the DC-9 accident in MTY that overran the runway and most tragically in a DC-9 that caught fire after landing in CUU in the 80s. There's a pattern here. Sad.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:18 pm

How does an incident that happened in 1980-something under a completely different ownership and management (and likely different union leadership too) and a situation that took place in 2013 where facts have not been yet ascertained and liabilities have not been established make a pattern?
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bennett123
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:31 pm

IMO, any failure to report this incident lies on the flight deck.

Surely they knew that a tail strike had taken place.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:47 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 59):
IMO, any failure to report this incident lies on the flight deck.

Surely they knew that a tail strike had taken place.

That is MY POINT !!!
Of course the Captain and the F/O are complete morons (and I know quite a few of them and consider them good friends and great pilots), in this situation MAD tower doesnt have to look for tail strikes on every flight, but the crew reported the problem to tower??? I bet my left nut they did not because if that was the case MAD tower would have checked the runway and also used binoculars to check the AM002 .

I can be certain the silence for the cockpit is a liability in this case, I have been to 2 emergency landings and both were handled by the crew informing us about the situation the emergency landing procedures, positions, removing sharp objects and such. Even they explained the F/O would open a panel in the floor to see if the gear was down, so we would not freak out of a guy with a wrench popping up the floor !!! My point is that the more info and reasurance the PAX have the better, if you see as a PAX a FA loosing its marbles it only adds to the fear and confusion.

The PAX reporting were on rows 1 and 2 and if they heard the strike, it was heard everywhere....

Sad thing because that bird will go to the scrappers .... the damage is quite extensive and I bet LOTS of debris were droped by this 762.


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TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
AM744
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:37 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 58):
How does an incident that happened in 1980-something under a completely different ownership and management (and likely different union leadership too) and a situation that took place in 2013 where facts have not been yet ascertained and liabilities have not been established make a pattern?

The MTY accident happened in the Aerovias de Mexico era, but I agree, let's wait for the facts. I'll leave it at saying that in general, our companies seem to do ok when everything goes as expected, but training must be upgraded. The apparent inaction on behalf of the crew doesn't sound right.
 
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intsim
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:25 pm

Would a tail strike like this be visible to other aircraft on the ground in the area if someone happened to be watching that aircraft rotate?
 
Gatorman96
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:56 pm

Quoting intsim (Reply 62):

Would a tail strike like this be visible to other aircraft on the ground in the area if someone happened to be watching that aircraft rotate?

Absolutely. There would've been sparks and smoke associated with this tail strike that anyone watching in the vicinity could've noticed...
 
TC957
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:51 pm

What ! No spotters there at the time to witness this ??
 
bueb0g
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:19 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 53):
All of them they were kept out of the loop, meaning there was no announcement from the crew as what was going on. One FA sufered a neck injury due to the strike, the other had a nervous breakdown. (those were the 2 admisions to hospitals in MAD).

This is what I don't understand - if the FA's were actually injured during the tailstrike, surely they would have informed the cockpit crew? In that case, I couldn't imagine the pilots ignoring it.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 59):
IMO, any failure to report this incident lies on the flight deck.

Surely they knew that a tail strike had taken place.

Agreed that it was probably their failure but you'd be surprised at the amount of severe tail-strikes that happen without the crew being aware.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 60):
Of course the Captain and the F/O are complete morons

... Of course? We know that for sure, do we?
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Gatorman96
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:39 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 53):

Well I did not want to jump for conclusions but there are some facts emerging, PX on that plane:

All of them they were kept out of the loop, meaning there was no announcement from the crew as what was going on.

As reassuring as it might be for the pax to hear from the flight deck in this situation, they have other priorities to take care of in an emergency situation. I want the captain and the FO to be completely focused on assessing the situation and determining how to best handle it than make small talk over the P/A system to appease the pax.
 
Summa767
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:58 pm

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 66):
As reassuring as it might be for the pax to hear from the flight deck in this situation, they have other priorities to take care of in an emergency situation. I want the captain and the FO to be completely focused on assessing the situation and determining how to best handle it than make small talk over the P/A system to appease the pax.

Personally I was more intrigued about the lack of proper communication with ATC.
According to spanish media, MAD ATC have criticised AM's crew for not reporting of the tail strike, the injured crew and not requesting emergency services.
http://www.telemadrid.es/noticias/so...e-provocar-una-tragedia-en-barajas
 
Gatorman96
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:05 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 67):
Personally I was more intrigued about the lack of proper communication with ATC.
According to spanish media, MAD ATC have criticised AM's crew for not reporting of the tail strike, the injured crew and not requesting emergency services.

I was really just referring to the flight deck communicating with the pax. They are the lowest on the totem pole in a situation like this (hopefully because the captain/FO are working with ATC)! I do completely agree with you if what is stated in this article is true. The AM crew is quite lucky the Air Europa plane following them only blew a tire. Imagine if that had been worse...
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:54 am

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 66):
I want the captain and the FO to be completely focused on assessing the situation and determining how to best handle it than make small talk over the P/A system to appease the pax.

It may be a non event for you, but believe me, people get really anxious when things get out of the ordinary. Example: you are relaxed and then all oxygen masks, drop, and when you took off, you hear a very loud BANG!, I guess you would be as calm as a fish? NOPE I guarantee you you wont, The 727 that did not lower the gear (that I WAS ON) was full of pilot on F dead heading to MIA, they were very anxious and one of them had its seat all wet from his hands!!!! And he was a Pilot !!!.... Sorry I dont buy it, You would really want to know what is going on, and it takes 1 minute to explain to the CREW what is going on and they relay the info to the PAX in case things are busy on the flight deck.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 67):
Personally I was more intrigued about the lack of proper communication with ATC.

This is the most glaring part and why I called them morons, because they endangered not only the plane and PAX by their mistake (mistakes happen and that is not part of my blame since I am 100% sure they did not try to have a tail strike), but their failure of communication about the tailstrike and the posibility of debris on the tarmac, then later on not informing the Tower to check with binoculars if there was any damage, and more so if they had injured Crew to ignore... hence Ii called them morons, I have the utmost respect for pilots because we put our lives in their hands, but in this case i CANT imagine all the nervousness they felt when they were ignored and did not know what was going on.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 68):
The AM crew is quite lucky the Air Europa plane following them only blew a tire. Imagine if that had been worse...

My thoughts exactly, procedure review for these guys is in order, more so after seeing that a very large part of the outer skin was ripped offf...

No wonder PAX were angry and vocal, about this.

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
Gatorman96
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:56 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 69):
It may be a non event for you, but believe me, people get really anxious when things get out of the ordinary. Example: you are relaxed and then all oxygen masks, drop, and when you took off, you hear a very loud BANG!, I guess you would be as calm as a fish? NOPE I guarantee you you wont, The 727 that did not lower the gear (that I WAS ON) was full of pilot on F dead heading to MIA, they were very anxious and one of them had its seat all wet from his hands!!!! And he was a Pilot !!!.... Sorry I dont buy it, You would really want to know what is going on, and it takes 1 minute to explain to the CREW what is going on and they relay the info to the PAX in case things are busy on the flight deck.

You missed my point. I never said anything about not being concerned if this happened on an aircraft I was on. I would be nervous as hell, but I want the pilots to be focused on managing the situation and not wondering how the passengers feel. What would they say anyways? "We smashed the hell out of the tail of our aircraft and the plane won't pressurize. Enjoy the rest of the flight!"
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:02 am

I dont expect the crew to come personally and calm me down, but a 30 sec announcement from the cockpit does wonders, They could have said, that they are going to return to MAD, to check the aircraft since they think the tail struck the runway, just a safety measure, thanks ....

In my flight the pilot said, " We seem to have a problem with the landing gear, we executed a missed aproach so the tower could check with binoculars if we had lowered landing gear, but since its late they could not be sure, so the Co pilot will take a small wrench and open a panel in the floor to check it visually from the cabin, its standard procedure so you dont need to worry about, just a safety measure" He said it non chalantly, with very clear words, no hurry, everyone on board was a lot more tranquilized, then he proceded to tell us we would dump fuel and if we saw the wings it should look great with the moon light outside. !!!

The main thing is that they did fail to comunicate to the tower, and then failed to comunicate with their crew... not good in my book.

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
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ssteve
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:56 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 71):
I dont expect the crew to come personally and calm me down, but a 30 sec announcement from the cockpit does wonders, They could have said, that they are going to return to MAD, to check the aircraft since they think the tail struck the runway, just a safety measure, thanks ....

Make sure whatever is said, is said with a West Virginia drawl.
 
mtyfreak
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:12 pm

The Economy cabin configuration of the XA-TOJ is so uncomfortable that if the insurance company decides to call it a W/O it would do a big favour for passengers.
Only here for the beer...
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:11 am

Quoting mtyfreak (Reply 73):
The Economy cabin configuration of the XA-TOJ is so uncomfortable that if the insurance company decides to call it a W/O it would do a big favour for passengers.

Jadec reports as a possible Write off... maybe it is a blessing in disguise !!!

I guess they can lease another torture chamber for 9 months till the 787 arrives

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
Marcus
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:58 pm

Are there any more news on this incident? preliminary report? pilots comments?
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