All of a sudden the FAA is advertising massive flow control programs all over the country... It's a Sunday so it's probably not traffic and there is not much weather... Is this the beginning of the Sequestration delays due to mandatory controller furloughs? It's not going to be a fun summer if delays on a good day can go up to 200+ min. Throw in a line of thunderstorms and I could see that going over 400+ minute maximum delays.
1. AFPS
AFTER 1100 -FCAJX5 EXPECTED SOUTHBOUND
AFTER 1100 -FCATL2 EXPECTED WESTBOUND
AFTER 1100 -FCAID2 EXPECTED WESTBOUND
AFTER 1100 -FCAMP2 EXPECTED WESTBOUND
AFTER 1400 -FCAMP1 EXPECTED EASTBOUND
AFTER 1400 -FCAAU1 EXPECTED EASTBOUND
AFTER 1400 -FCATX1 EXPECTED EASTBOUND
MESSAGE:
CTL ELEMENT: FCATL2
ELEMENT TYPE: FCA
ALTITUDES INCLUDED: FL110 TO FL600
ADL TIME: 0954Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: UDP
ENTRY ESTIMATED FOR: 21/1100Z - 22/0059Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 21/1100Z - 22/0059Z
PROGRAM RATE: 97
FLT INCL: ALL FLIGHTS IN FCATL2 DYNAMIC FLIGHT LIST
DEP SCOPE: (MANUAL) ZAB ZSE ZFW ZKC ZME ZTL ZOA ZLC ZLA ZAU ZMP ZDV
ZID ZMA ZHU ZJX ZBW ZOB ZDC ZNY
ADDITIONAL DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED:
EXEMPT DEP FACILITIES: PHL LGA DCA
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYTZ CYYZ CYUL CYOW CYQB CYHZ
MAXIMUM DELAY: 215
AVERAGE DELAY: 13
IMPACTING CONDITION: OTHER / OTHER
COMMENTS:
CTL ELEMENT: FCAID2
ELEMENT TYPE: FCA
ALTITUDES INCLUDED: FL110 TO FL600
ADL TIME: 1004Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: UDP
ENTRY ESTIMATED FOR: 21/1100Z - 21/2359Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 21/1100Z - 21/2359Z
PROGRAM RATE: 125
FLT INCL: ALL FLIGHTS IN FCAID2 DYNAMIC FLIGHT LIST
DEP SCOPE: (MANUAL) ZAB ZSE ZFW ZKC ZME ZTL ZOA ZLC ZLA ZAU ZMP ZDV
ZID ZMA ZHU ZJX ZBW ZOB ZDC ZNY
ADDITIONAL DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED:
EXEMPT DEP FACILITIES: PHL DCA LGA
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYYZ CYTZ CYOW CYUL CYQB CYHZ
MAXIMUM DELAY: 225
AVERAGE DELAY: 8
IMPACTING CONDITION: OTHER / OTHER
COMMENTS:
Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
DH1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30/50/80 717 727 735/6/7/8/9 744 762/3 77E/W 788/789 E40/75/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150
J/S DH8D 736/7/8 763
J/S DH8D 736/7/8 763
-
- PHLapproach
- Posts: 1070
- Joined:
Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
I'm sure a lot of sectors in the Z's are gonna be combined up. EWR apparently will not be able to run 29 today with the planned staffing which they could certainly use with the wind forecast the way it is. ORD posted a GDP at 5:30am. I think that's the earliest I've ever seen one. But it was cancelled at 6am already.
Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
The only programs I see out at the moment are delay programs for FLL (average 45 mins due to thunderstorms) and SFO (average 40 mins due to construction).
www.fly.faa.gov/ois
From what I heard on the frequencies last night, it starts on Monday. So I guess we'll see then.
-Mir
www.fly.faa.gov/ois
From what I heard on the frequencies last night, it starts on Monday. So I guess we'll see then.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
At MIA they closed runway 8L/26R its been closed for the 3 days.
Not sure if its maintenance or the furloughs. If its because of the fuloghs
then its starting here already.
Not sure if its maintenance or the furloughs. If its because of the fuloghs
then its starting here already.
Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
Well, LGA and JFK both have delay programs out due to staffing now, and HPN is ground stopped due to staffing.
The arrival rate at JFK has been cut almost in half (should be 44 in the current configuration, instead it's 28).
-Mir
The arrival rate at JFK has been cut almost in half (should be 44 in the current configuration, instead it's 28).
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
Budget Cuts Threaten to Worsen Air Delays
Few flight delays were in evidence Sunday—on the first day of the furloughs of some air-traffic controllers under budget cuts required by the federal sequester—but delays could worsen as heavier traffic takes hold as early as Monday.
Top
Few flight delays were in evidence Sunday—on the first day of the furloughs of some air-traffic controllers under budget cuts required by the federal sequester—but delays could worsen as heavier traffic takes hold as early as Monday.
Top
Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
Getting a taste of it this evening...
Some odd flow control airports (HPN really?) as well.
MESSAGE:
CTL ELEMENT: LAX
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 0150Z
GROUND STOP PERIOD: 22/0145Z - 22/0245Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 22/0330Z - 22/0659Z
DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED: (Manual) ZAB ZFW ZKC ZOA ZLC ZLA ZDV ZHU
PREVIOUS TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AVERAGE DELAYS: 267 / 87 / 13
NEW TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AVERAGE DELAYS: 984 / 117 / 49
PROBABILITY OF EXTENSION: MEDIUM
IMPACTING CONDITION: OTHER / OTHER
COMMENTS: CAUSAL FACTOR IS "STAFFING"
MESSAGE:
CTL ELEMENT: LGA
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 0118Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: DAS
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 22/0118Z - 22/0359Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 21/2109Z - 22/0359Z
PROGRAM RATE: 30
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: 1425
ADDITIONAL DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED:
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYHZ CYOW CYUL CYYZ CYTZ CYQB
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZNY
MAXIMUM DELAY: 160
AVERAGE DELAY: 85
IMPACTING CONDITION: OTHER / OTHER
COMMENTS: N90 STAFFING - LOWER ARRIVAL RATE
1. ROUTES
UNTIL 0400 -EWR/JFK WIND ROUTES
UNTIL 0500 -AR6 AND AR15 CLOSED
2. ZNY
UNTIL 0259 -JFK GROUND DELAY PROGRAM
UNTIL 0359 -LGA GROUND DELAY PROGRAM
AFTER 1800 -JFK/EWR/LGA GROUND STOP/DELAY PROGRAM POSSIBLE
AFTER 1800 -TEB/HPN GROUND STOPS POSSIBLE
3. ZOA
UNTIL 0659 -SFO GROUND DELAY PROGRAM
4. ZLA
UNTIL 0659 -LAX GROUND DELAY PROGRAM
UNTIL 0500 -SAN GROUND STOP POSSIBLE
Some odd flow control airports (HPN really?) as well.
MESSAGE:
CTL ELEMENT: LAX
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 0150Z
GROUND STOP PERIOD: 22/0145Z - 22/0245Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 22/0330Z - 22/0659Z
DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED: (Manual) ZAB ZFW ZKC ZOA ZLC ZLA ZDV ZHU
PREVIOUS TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AVERAGE DELAYS: 267 / 87 / 13
NEW TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AVERAGE DELAYS: 984 / 117 / 49
PROBABILITY OF EXTENSION: MEDIUM
IMPACTING CONDITION: OTHER / OTHER
COMMENTS: CAUSAL FACTOR IS "STAFFING"
MESSAGE:
CTL ELEMENT: LGA
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 0118Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: DAS
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 22/0118Z - 22/0359Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 21/2109Z - 22/0359Z
PROGRAM RATE: 30
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: 1425
ADDITIONAL DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED:
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYHZ CYOW CYUL CYYZ CYTZ CYQB
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZNY
MAXIMUM DELAY: 160
AVERAGE DELAY: 85
IMPACTING CONDITION: OTHER / OTHER
COMMENTS: N90 STAFFING - LOWER ARRIVAL RATE
1. ROUTES
UNTIL 0400 -EWR/JFK WIND ROUTES
UNTIL 0500 -AR6 AND AR15 CLOSED
2. ZNY
UNTIL 0259 -JFK GROUND DELAY PROGRAM
UNTIL 0359 -LGA GROUND DELAY PROGRAM
AFTER 1800 -JFK/EWR/LGA GROUND STOP/DELAY PROGRAM POSSIBLE
AFTER 1800 -TEB/HPN GROUND STOPS POSSIBLE
3. ZOA
UNTIL 0659 -SFO GROUND DELAY PROGRAM
4. ZLA
UNTIL 0659 -LAX GROUND DELAY PROGRAM
UNTIL 0500 -SAN GROUND STOP POSSIBLE
DH1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30/50/80 717 727 735/6/7/8/9 744 762/3 77E/W 788/789 E40/75/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150
J/S DH8D 736/7/8 763
J/S DH8D 736/7/8 763
Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
| Quoting PSAJet17 (Reply 8): |
Monday is not a busier day than Sunday afternoon and night. The media acts like airlines park planes 5 out of 7 days of the week and use them only on Monday and Friday. The media also acts as though there are more flights in August than in April. What changes seasonal markets and a reduction in weekend cancellations. But planes are expensive assets. They don't sit around idle.
As for delays I can see a cascading effect. Day 1 wont be that bad but each subsequent day is worse.
Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
| Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 11): |
Hmmmm,
April 2012 EWR did 35,757 flights
August 2012 EWR did 39,318 flights
I'm sorry to say this but your an example of why you can't believe anything from this site. People come on here just saying random untrue information and then other people believe it's true. Check your facts because it only makes you look silly in the end. Also Monday is busier then Sundays, I'll be happy to post #'s for that too if you would like.
Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
| Quoting njgtr82 (Reply 12): Hmmmm, April 2012 EWR did 35,757 flights August 2012 EWR did 39,318 flights I'm sorry to say this but your an example of why you can't believe anything from this site. People come on here just saying random untrue information and then other people believe it's true. Check your facts because it only makes you look silly in the end. Also Monday is busier then Sundays, I'll be happy to post #'s for that too if you would like. |
So you think airlines simply park planes throughout the year and use them in the summer only. So your example is 10% more flights in Aug than in April. Correcting for one additional day in Aug makes Aug 7% more flights than April. So far you look silly for not doing simple math. The remaining 7% is easily made up by weekend cancellations in April become daily in Aug.
Monday is busier than Sundays only because of Sunday morning weekend exceptions. Once 12pm Sunday passes, airlines mostly run a 100% schedule. Oh and how do I know. I only worked in airline scheduling. We did lots of weekend exceptions that became daily from June to Aug. So I actually do know what Im talking about. You don't despite your claim as someone who works in ATC.
Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
| Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 13): |
I guess your the only one who has worked for an airline? You said before there is no difference between April and August with the amount of flights but now your saying there's a 7% difference? Just want to make sure I'm following that your first post was false? Also your now agreeing Mondays are busier? This is comical, seriously.
Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
| Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 10): Some odd flow control airports (HPN really?) |
Makes perfect sense - normally there are two different sectors that handle LGA and HPN, which necessitates two controllers (and associated support staff). If you don't have one of those controllers, then the remaining guy has to handle both airports, and traffic flow will be limited by his workload. And it makes sense to prioritize LGA arrivals over HPN arrivals.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
I assume this is the same as EWR/TEB?
Cheers
Cheers
DH1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30/50/80 717 727 735/6/7/8/9 744 762/3 77E/W 788/789 E40/75/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150
J/S DH8D 736/7/8 763
J/S DH8D 736/7/8 763
Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
| Quoting njgtr82 (Reply 14): |
I said there is no difference other than weekend cancellations. There are differences in markets. So seasonal destinations see big differences. Like SEA, HNL, ANC etc. But at the big hubs, there is very little difference at airports like ATL, DFW, ORD. In the winter there are planes sitting on the weekend. But a Monday in April is not any different than a Monday in Aug in terms of departures. There might be some hub where the day is lengethed by adding a very late bank, but that is rare. In your example of EWR, the entire 7% difference is explained by DOW exceptions. The media claims Friday and Monday are busiest. But passenger numbers and flights aren't the same thing. Load factors are irrelevant to ATC. Sunday after 12pm is as busy as any day. 7% at EWR is 50 departures per day. Or 3 per hour during the peak travel times.
I am not sure what your point even is other than you agree with the media's contention that airlines park planes for long periods of time and use them only occasionally. It is similar to the media saying Thanksgiving is so busy. Airlines don't add flights around Thanksgiving as that would imply planes are sitting during nonHoliday periods. LF might go up a few points ,but flights are already operating at 85% loads annually anyway.
Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
| Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 16): I assume this is the same as EWR/TEB? |
Not to the same extent - EWR and the satellites (TEB, CDW and MMU) are rarely combined onto one sector.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
| Quoting Mir (Reply 18): Not to the same extent - EWR and the satellites (TEB, CDW and MMU) are rarely combined onto one sector. -Mir |
Ok. So in the circumstances we have now, what would team up with what in NYC? LGA as you already informed me will grab HPN. Do you think EWR and JFK will remain separate and some other satellite sectors will stay open or will JFK have to combine on occasion with the Long Island satellites and EWR on occasion with the Western ones. (Assuming that LGA will get the northern ones). All of this depending of course on staffing levels day to day.
Any insight you have would certainly be welcome.
DH1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30/50/80 717 727 735/6/7/8/9 744 762/3 77E/W 788/789 E40/75/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150
J/S DH8D 736/7/8 763
J/S DH8D 736/7/8 763
RE: Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
| Quoting mia305 (Reply 3): At MIA they closed runway 8L/26R its been closed for the 3 days. Not sure if its maintenance or the furloughs. If its because of the fuloghs then its starting here already. |
I left MIA on a 3:05pm flight to DFW this afternoon and we sat on the runway for about an hour before taking off. Pilot said that there were thunderstorms to the N/NW and ATC was requiring a minimum of 20 miles separation between planes. Now really sure what to make of it all but over half of the F cabin fell asleep before we took off ... LOL.
RE: Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
Here comes round two...
1. AFPS
AFTER 1300 -FCAJX1 POSSIBLE SOUTHBOUND
2. ROUTES
AFTER 1700 -EWR/JFK WIND ROUTES EXPECTED
AFTER 1200 -AR6 AND AR15 CLOSED EXPECTED
3. ZNY
AFTER 1200 -PHL GROUND STOP POSSIBLE
AFTER 1800 -EWR GROUND STOP/DELAY PROGRAM POSSIBLE
AFTER 1800 -JFK GROUND STOP/DELAY PROGRAM POSSIBLE
AFTER 1800 -LGA GROUND STOP/DELAY PROGRAM POSSIBLE
AFTER 1800 -TEB/HPN GROUND STOPS POSSIBLE
4. ZLA
AFTER 1400 -LAX GROUND STOP/DELAY PROGRAM POSSIBLE
AFTER 1400 -SAN GROUND STOP POSSIBLE
1. AFPS
AFTER 1300 -FCAJX1 POSSIBLE SOUTHBOUND
2. ROUTES
AFTER 1700 -EWR/JFK WIND ROUTES EXPECTED
AFTER 1200 -AR6 AND AR15 CLOSED EXPECTED
3. ZNY
AFTER 1200 -PHL GROUND STOP POSSIBLE
AFTER 1800 -EWR GROUND STOP/DELAY PROGRAM POSSIBLE
AFTER 1800 -JFK GROUND STOP/DELAY PROGRAM POSSIBLE
AFTER 1800 -LGA GROUND STOP/DELAY PROGRAM POSSIBLE
AFTER 1800 -TEB/HPN GROUND STOPS POSSIBLE
4. ZLA
AFTER 1400 -LAX GROUND STOP/DELAY PROGRAM POSSIBLE
AFTER 1400 -SAN GROUND STOP POSSIBLE
DH1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30/50/80 717 727 735/6/7/8/9 744 762/3 77E/W 788/789 E40/75/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150
J/S DH8D 736/7/8 763
J/S DH8D 736/7/8 763
RE: Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
Last night was interesting. LAX went into a GDP with an arrival rate of 36-42 flights an hour due to staffing issues according to the ATCSCC advisory. The normal AAR is closer to 60. The arrival stream over Colorado was being vectored all over creation because ATC had requested 20 miles in trail.
Below is the Flightaware plot from one of the affected flights.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL1845
Below is the Flightaware plot from one of the affected flights.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL1845
"I love mankind. It's people I can't stand." - Charles Shultz
RE: Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
Flight delays already COST the country money. A quick google search tells me approx $40 billion a year.
So increasing delays, logic would suggest, would add to that cost. How much are they saving with the mandatory controller furloughs?
So increasing delays, logic would suggest, would add to that cost. How much are they saving with the mandatory controller furloughs?
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
RE: Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
| Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 18): Do you think EWR and JFK will remain separate and some other satellite sectors will stay open or will JFK have to combine on occasion with the Long Island satellites and EWR on occasion with the Western ones. |
My somewhat educated guess is that neither will happen regularly, though EWR is more likely to combine than JFK (just due to proximity of the airports - FRG is still a ways away from JFK).
All the departure routes for the area do combine, however, and I would expect that that's where you'll really see issues as mile-in-trail restrictions get established.
| Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 23): If HPN is impacted, the problem is with NY Center not just the airport towers? |
The towers are fine - their sequester got pushed back. It's the centers and the TRACONs who are having issues.
-Mir
[Edited 2013-04-22 07:41:06]
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
-
-
richierich
Moderator
- Posts: 3632
- Joined:
RE: Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
I believe the sequestration will also adversely affect how long it takes to pass through Customs and Immigration at US Airports.
For example, a co-worker of mine recently came back from a Caribbean vacation with her family and reported a two and a hour line at JFK Terminal 4 for Customs. That's kind of on the long side - the flight was only 3 hours long! If sequestration cuts mean this is the norm (or perhaps it will get worse?), I can't imagine anybody is going to want to fly outside of the US if other options are available.
This will clearly affect all airlines, except WN.
Between the Customs delays and extra ATC delays, I think commercial flying is in a real pickle.
For example, a co-worker of mine recently came back from a Caribbean vacation with her family and reported a two and a hour line at JFK Terminal 4 for Customs. That's kind of on the long side - the flight was only 3 hours long! If sequestration cuts mean this is the norm (or perhaps it will get worse?), I can't imagine anybody is going to want to fly outside of the US if other options are available.
This will clearly affect all airlines, except WN.
Between the Customs delays and extra ATC delays, I think commercial flying is in a real pickle.
None shall pass!!!!
RE: Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
This is such BS. It's to bad the media is a puppet of opinion these days and doesn't actually verify anything anymore.You mean to tell me that the only way to save money is to furlough controllers? The FAA budget was cut a whopping 4.3 percent. It's still higher now after the cuts then 2008 and ATC handled over a million less flights in 2012 vs 2008. The economy is never going to recover with the idiots in Washington running the show.
The voice of moderation
RE: Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
| Quoting Mir (Reply 24): The towers are fine - their sequester got pushed back. It's the centers and the TRACONs who are having issues. |
Incorrect. FAA towers are sequestered/furloughed like the Tracons/ARTCCs. The Contract Towers were to be closed by now but they've been pushed back pending legal action.
I think Big Foot is blurry... It's not the photographer's fault. There's a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside.
RE: Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
| Quoting wagz (Reply 27): FAA towers are sequestered/furloughed like the Tracons/ARTCCs. The Contract Towers were to be closed by now but they've been pushed back pending legal action. |
Thanks for the correction. Ironic that the towers that need the staffing the most are the ones that get hit first, while the contract towers (most of which airports could make do without) get to stick around.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
RE: Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
| Quoting dairbus (Reply 21): Below is the Flightaware plot from one of the affected flights. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL1845 |
This series of turns added almost 440 miles to the flight. Originally planned for 2007 sm, actual was 2445 sm.
Delays can be dealt with but when operating costs for flights go up (in this case the plane flew 22% farther that planned) and soon we will see fare increases and/or new surcharges.
RE: Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
| Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 23): Quoting offloaded (Reply 22): What's your source? I'm not necessarily doubting that number. Just want to see how that number is calculated. |
This one is a bit old, but it's a Congressional study.
Flight delays cost $41B in 2007 - study
From 2010:
Flight delays cost $32.9 billion, passengers foot half the bill
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
-
- greenwichsud
- Posts: 52
- Joined:
RE: Is This The First Day Of Sequestration Delays?
| Quoting cmhsrq (Reply 26): You mean to tell me that the only way to save money is to furlough controllers? The FAA budget was cut a whopping 4.3 percent. It's still higher now after the cuts then 2008 and ATC handled over a million less flights in 2012 vs 2008. The economy is never going to recover with the idiots in Washington running the show. |
There are many, many ways to save money. Who is anyone on this site to say that the FAA (or NASA, or DoD, or DOE, or any other Fed. govt entity for that matter) is making the best of the budget that is allocated to it? Are the airlines making the best use of airport and ATC resources? Judging by the number of regional jets flying around this country, the answer is "most likely not". That's the crux of the fiscal problem in this country - everyone agrees that we need to get government finances under control, as long as the scalpel (or increased tax burden) lands on the "right areas". There's just no sense of personal committment.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: 11C, 747buff, amdiesen, astuteman, AVENSAB727, Baidu [Spider], bigred10k, Bing [Bot], BlueBaller, BMcD, BOSillini, ChaseCLT, Cmac787, concordeforever, corn4ahead, CrewBunk, CrisAA, dallas6940, danipawa, DENfan, ERJ170, Exyxy, F9Animal, FGITD, FlyingViking, GFB, grossole, hawaiian717, hbernal1, heavymetal, iluvairplanes99, Ishrion, Jetport, JonathanKongre, klkla, LHA320, MajMattMason, MD80MKE, mig17, Nicknuzzii, NOLAWildcat, Pt56, QF744ER, RAGAZZO777, scbriml, SEAflyer97, SkyLife, splitterz, Talasartir, tcfc424, TWAGuy, Wneast, ytib, ZK-NBT and 337 guests