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kanban
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:17 pm

Wisdom
in a plane using containers in the lower lobe cargo holds, how much space is there between the container and the ceiling panels, and how much space between the container and the door.. unless you are the rubber man from the Fantastic 4, you're going to have space difficulties. one of the biggest problems we had with cargo lighting was insufficient container clearance (slightly tweaked containers) that snagged the 1/2 inch light protrusion)

Maybe we should install beaming platforms under each container and have Scotty beam them out.. I'm also pretty certain that if you tried ripping up the carpet and floor panels, the other passengers would have you duct taped to a seat in seconds.

The panels you describe as flimsy are Kevlar.. the exterior control box is cast AL on many planes..

Further note that because of a bomb years ago, the containers are designed to contain explosions, fires but not smoke. We could make them better by sucking the air out and sealing them, but it would kill all those smuggled turtles, frogs and birds. removing the air and or replacing it with nitrogen would significantly reduce the probability of a fire in a container .

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 71):
If you're going to open any door, wouldn't it be obvious to open the outflow valves and depressurise first? Once depressurised, you open the door, nothing gets sucked out.

OH, depressurize the plane full of passengers.. good thinking! One thing I was building commercial planes before you were born and probably before your parents were born.

What further puzzles me is apparently you would prefer to continue bulk shipping lithium/li-ion batteries on commercial passenger planes in defiance of the regs for personal gain, yet want the same regulators to ground all flight crews that are not willing to leave the cockpit to throw containers overboard. Why do I get the impression you worked on helicopters?
 
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zeke
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:00 pm

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 94):
1. Your link doesn't work

It does, the full stop is there for punctuation of the sentence.

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 94):

2. No one is going to comply with that kind of regulations

Most airlines that I am familiar with do, care to name a western airlines that does not follow the IATA DG regulations ? What do they use instead, or do they not accept any DGs (which is what some do).

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 94):
3. Remember that IATA DGR are guidelines seen as an accepted standard, that many airlines adopt but they aren't mandatory worldwide.

Only around 85% of airlines use the IATA DG regulations.

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 96):
Child's play, 1 minute to gain access, 1 minute to figure it out and remove the linings, 2 minutes maximum to unlock and gain access. In 5 minutes you can be jettisoning containers.

OIC, and how did you get in that position to start with to gain access to that side of the door ?

And how do you overcome the force on each of the latches ?

Did I read correctly you wanted to hack through the aircraft skin to gain access to the selector on the outside ?

How do you override the DSCS (one of its primary functions is the cargo door electrical control system) and the PSCU for the handle and prox switch (see the AMM 52-71-00-13850-00-A Sheet 1). As you have access to the AMM, I will not then need to also repeat the various warnings in RED about operating the doors above 40 kts can cause structural damage.

Cargo doors are fail safe in their design and operation. They need their mechanical, electrical, and hydraulic controls to line up correctly to prevent them from opening when not desired.

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 98):

Everything is insulated, there's no voltage/current risk. You sound like someone who has never ever seen a E/E bay of his life.

That is not true. We have asked specifically about gaining access to the EE bay in flight in order to carry out resets in the past (we asked the question after a number of flaps/slats locked events after takeoff). Airbus specifically prohibited it. Even for a simple ACARs reset, I would not go down in the EE bay on the ground, that is for people who have the authority and training to perform those tasks.

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 98):
There is no risk, and all aircraft offer in-flight access for resetting C/B and Fault indicator resets AND FOR FIGHTING ELECTRICAL FIRES!

That is not true either, show me the written approved procedure.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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Spacepope
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:52 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 91):
You failed to answer my previous challenge if that is actually possible on the A330 ? The reason I ask, it is to best of my knowledge that regulators and manufacturers do not like their cargo doors opening in flight, and put various locks in place to prevent them from opening even if power is applied.

I am curious, in your opinion, if we were to entertain this notion of dumping of containers, even ignoring serious CG issues, what is there to prevent something similar to this happening: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_811

It seems to me that your crazy idea, Zeke, of following procedures and evaluating the situation is MUCH more preferable than messing with the CG and ejecting unlucky passengers while on fire. Though it does remind me of a date I had once.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
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zeke
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:15 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 102):
what is there to prevent something similar to this happening: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...t_811

On the A320/A330/A340/A350 it is called a Doors and Slides Control System (DSCS), on the A380 the Doors and Slides Management System (DSMS). Basically they need the mechanical positions of the lock/levers to be in the correct positions, and the hydraulic circuit commanded at the selector, before opening the valve to operate the hydraulic actuator.

If I recall the detail of the earlier 747 doors, they had electrical chaffing which resulted in the electrical circuit to command the door to open. This happened on the ground from memory with one aircraft while taxing, and also in air in the more famous incident.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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Spacepope
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:14 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 103):

On the A320/A330/A340/A350 it is called a Doors and Slides Control System (DSCS), on the A380 the Doors and Slides Management System (DSMS).

Thank you for the detailed descriptions of the systems in place preventing the cargo door from opening. I was more concerned about the door, once opened, departing the aircraft in a similar fashion and removing structure with it. I just have my doubts that it could stay either attached (unlike the main deck cargo door on the DC-8 that opened inflight) or come off cleanly.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:17 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 87):
Ok this thread has all the right ingredients for a low-budget, B-movie, action adventure disaster movie. Lot's of drama, life & death situation, egos clashing, lots of yelling & screaming at each other. The sweet old lady from Singapore that thought that smuggling on her durian fruit would be harmless & innocent only to cause a major catastrophe. Throw in the cute little girl that needs to have a kidney transplant and has to fly to another city to have the operation, the horny first officer that has a lady in every city he flies to, people sitting in pretty chairs wearing pink sunglasses. Sounds like a fantastic plot for a B-movie.  

You also need a Nun singing Kumbaya for 5 minutes to the transplant patient, to make it more enjoyable!!!, THAT would make me want to see it...

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 96):
Child's play, 1 minute to gain access, 1 minute to figure it out and remove the linings, 2 minutes maximum to unlock and gain access. In 5 minutes you can be jettisoning containers.
A little practice would help reduce your time...

Also you missed that you would be sucked and in 2 mere minutes would be on the ground....real fast. You have seen way too many action movies, but that is my Humble opinion.

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 102):
It seems to me that your crazy idea, Zeke, of following procedures and evaluating the situation is MUCH more preferable than messing with the CG and ejecting unlucky passengers while on fire. Though it does remind me of a date I had once.

Now my wife is asking me why I am laughing so much!

Procedures are there for a reason, and a lot of them are based on actual facts and incidents, if the OP say that the guys up front should go down opena cargo door at jettison all that looks fishy, so be it, but I really doubt it will be the case.
That is if John MClane isnt on board .
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:51 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 105):
Now my wife is asking me why I am laughing so much!

Believe me or not, MY wife asked me exactly the same question 5 minutes ago 
Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 105):
You also need a Nun singing Kumbaya for 5 minutes to the transplant patient, to make it more enjoyable!!
Quoting Spacepope (Reply 102):
Though it does remind me of a date I had once.
Quoting kanban (Reply 100):
What further puzzles me is apparently you would prefer to continue bulk shipping lithium/li-ion batteries on commercial passenger planes in defiance of the regs for personal gain, yet want the same regulators to ground all flight crews that are not willing to leave the cockpit to throw containers overboard.

Thank you all for one of the best continuous laughs I had in this forums in a long time !!!!

Wisdom, I feel sorry for you. You are a prisoner of your words. A very humble advice : Next time you think in use offensive and diminishing words against people in this forums, check their profiles first. Earning a RR of 1 is not easy here. Earning a RR of 21 is a signal of the quality of the contributions that member provides to this forums.
Even putting aside the RR, a very young person like you should have a different attitude with people like Kanban who were building passenger jets before you arrive to this world, just for the sake of respect.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 99):
It was stated in the local newspaper this morning that the fire originated in a passengers suitcase and was limited to 2 suitcases only.

It would be very nice to know what kind of stuff was packed in that suitcases....

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
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barney captain
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:34 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 103):
On the A320/A330/A340/A350 it is called a Doors and Slides Control System (DSCS), on the A380 the Doors and Slides Management System (DSMS). Basically they need the mechanical positions of the lock/levers to be in the correct positions, and the hydraulic circuit commanded at the selector, before opening the valve to operate the hydraulic actuator.

If I recall the detail of the earlier 747 doors, they had electrical chaffing which resulted in the electrical circuit to command the door to open. This happened on the ground from memory with one aircraft while taxing, and also in air in the more famous incident.

Zeke -

Come ON man - you clearly have no idea of what you speak of .....  

Mi Compadre, I truly hope we meet on some far off land for a libation. You have the composure of which I can only dream of.....first and last round on me.

Well done Sir.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:53 am

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 97):
EASA, FAA are you reading this?

     
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:10 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 105):
Also you missed that you would be sucked and in 2 mere minutes would be on the ground....real fast.

I'm glad I was the only person who thought of this! I'm not going to claim I have any knowledge in this area, but that was my first thought. Also, and even if it was possible, who would want to lower themselves in a constricted area with a potentially uncontained blaze?

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 105):
You also need a Nun singing Kumbaya for 5 minutes to the transplant patient

A nun? More like a flight attendant with a guitar who keeps nocking the transplant patient's tubes out 
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
kaneporta1
Posts: 741
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:49 pm

This thread reminded me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmal6xeAsBc

Enjoy!

[Edited 2013-04-28 11:50:53]
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
D L X
Posts: 12718
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:40 pm

So... would anyone care to talk about this SQ 330?

What caused the fire?
 
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jetfuel
Posts: 1078
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:18 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 111):
So... would anyone care to talk about this SQ 330?

What caused the fire?

YES what happened?
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
tockeyhockey
Posts: 882
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:50 pm

i'm with wisdom, but only if it's assured we're doomed anyway. i'm assuming that assurance of inevitable doom would not really ever come to anyone on the flight until we were about three seconds from death, but that's just a humble guess.
 
cubastar
Posts: 314
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:34 pm

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 71):
Obviously you're overdramatising and hiding the real issue. That issue is your lack of training and complacent attitude towards fires on board: "it's never going to happen to me".

YOU are accusing ZEKE of overdramatising?? Unbelievable!
 
rcair1
Posts: 1147
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:08 am

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 112):
YES what happened?

What - and return to the subject of the thread?
How dare you suggest that....

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 99):
It was stated in the local newspaper this morning that the fire originated in a passengers suitcase and was limited to 2 suitcases only.

I've not seen any other comments.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 85):
I would venture to guess that the smoke coming out of the A330 did not get that bad until it reached the ground and the fire fighter opened the door when a fresh wharf of air rushed in and the fire could erupt again.

rcair can comment on this aspect.

It is a little hard to say - kind of depends on where the seat of the fire was relative to the door and any air introduced.

Fundamentally - going into a cargo bay fire by opening 1 door is not the ideal approach. When we attack a compartment fire (Fire fighter term for a fire in a "compartment" or "room") one of the step is ventilation.

A compartment fire will transition through 4 stages - Incipient (just starting - easily controlled), growing, fully developed and decaying. By recognizing the stages of the fire - what stage it is in - we can plan actions on how to attack that fire. An incipient fire - usually you can control by use of a fire extinguisher. This is your trash can fire that you put out.

In the case of this fire - remembering of course I know nothing but what little I've read about this fire - it probably went from incipient stage to a ventilation controlled growth stage. Basically - the fire can only grow as fast as the oxygen available allows it to. It will smolder - make heat and make short runs, but spread slowly. If the ventilation changes, either unexpectedly due to a compartment failure or due to tactics employed by the fire crew - it can rapidly grow to a fully developed state. This is "flashover" - the fire rapidly transitions from growing - particularly ventilation limited growth - to fully developed.

"Backdraft" - which many have heard of is essentially an explosive flashover induced by introduction of an outside air.

Ventilation - air available - is often the limiter to fire growth. So it is very common to approach a structure fire that is in this state. Fuels are super heated, ready to flash, but the oxygen is lacking. A door opens, a window breaks, boom - the fire is off to the races.

It may seem strange, but one of the key techniques we use as fire fighters on structure fires is ventilation. We carefully, and hopefully in a controlled fashion, introduce both a route in and out for smoke and gasses. Ideally we want to ventilate first on the 'out' part - open a path for the heat and smoke to go out. The roof, since the heat and smoke rises, is a good avenue - you ventilate the roof which immediately releases some of the super heated gas and smoke out. You then make entry and attack the fire from the "inside out". Basically - you are trying to chase the fire out the hole you created.

Often - roof ventilation is not possible, or too dangerous - so we will to a lateral ventilation. In this case - it is important to ventilate in a way the prevailing wind will help. You break a window downwind and then enter and attack.

What you don't want to do is open a window that introduces air and then spray water in it. A water stream actually carries a lot of air with it - so it is quite easy to push the fire into the structure and cause extension.

---
Back to this one.
I'm quite sure the fire in the hold was in a ventilation (and chemically) limited growth stage. It was smoldering and the lack of air and (I'm assuming) introduction of Halon was keeping it at bay. Obviously - it was not out.

Ideally - from a fire fighting standpoint (and I'm not a specialist in aircraft fires), you would want to locate the seat of the fire, then open a ventilation hole near it that was on the lee side (downwind). Then you would open the upwind side and attack from there.

Alternatively - and better - if you know where the fire is - you use a penetrating nozzle to get directly to it without introducing air.

In this case - it looks like they opened the cargo door and vented it that way - then went into a direct attack mode. By opening only 1 door - it is likely they limited introduction of the air - but it is also a bit risky (not that I'm saying they took a risk, or did something 'risky', but simply that there was risk involved. They may have had intelligence (information) on the temperature of the hold that allowed them to know that the was not a flashover risk. They may have had no choice. Perhaps they could see, using thermal imaging, that the fire was relatively localized.

I really don't know.... I just don't have the info.

As for 'producing more smoke when they opened it' - I'm thinking likely no. I'm thinking the hold was relatively full of smoke and they opened it and the smoke came out. Perhaps production of smoke ramped up a bit - but they obviously did not flash into a fully developed fire or we'd have a much higher level of damage. Whatever approach the a/c crew and fire crew took - it worked. Applause.
rcair1
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2348
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:40 am

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 94):
2. No one is going to comply with that kind of regulations

Im a freight forwarder. I do not know of any reputable company who would knowingly not comply with these regulations. That covers a very large percentage of air freight and there are already checks in place to make sure things comply as much as possible. Of course the issue is the unreputable ones and baggage (as this case seems to be) who dont give one about regulations. The next step will unfortunately be obligatory enhanced screening / physical searches of everything which will add further cost and time.

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 96):
Child's play

Fortunately children are not allowed to play this game...
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
rcair1
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:51 am

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 82):
After leaving the airline industry, I have established my own business. I now import stuff for a living, including li-ions manufactured in China.
Despite all the DGR and all the regulations in place, I receive boxes containing li-ions that get dispersed due to them not being secured adequately. I send messages to manufacturers reminding of the risks involved but do they care? NO! Do they ship them as other products when this leads to a higher cost? YES!

And I certainly hope you report those companies and their mis-deeds to the freight handlers they put at risk, and to the authorities. If you do not - you are as guilty as them.

As an engineer in manufacturing, when I oversaw overseas manf by 3rd party companies who OEM/ODM'd for my company, we had specific requirements for workplace health & safety, hazardous material control and other safety/ecological considerations. We were often more strict than the local government. If the supplier violated that, they lost the business, and they knew that. And - we did inspect. In other words - recognizing that by shifting manufacturing to low cost places like China we were moving into places that may not have the standards we would require for our workers - we took on the responsibility of raising the bar on those manufacturers. It was a moral issue for both the company and the designers. Did we bring them into compliance with 1st manf - no - but we drug them out of the 3rd/4th world. We raised the bar on both quality of life and safety. And if we got any shipment that fit what you are describing - we would to far more than send a "message".

By the way - the argument "if I don't, somebody else will" holds no weight with me. If it is wrong - you do not participate. The that requires you change your business model - you do so and you take the consequences.

There is such a thing as doing right and refusing to do wrong. Set an example and do the right thing. Refuse to do business with companies that do not comply. Raise a stink. Let other 'importers' know.

For evil to succeed - all it takes is a good man to do - nothing.
rcair1
 
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zeke
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RE: Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:00 am

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 115):

In this case - it looks like they opened the cargo door and vented it that way - then went into a direct attack mode. By opening only 1 door - it is likely they limited introduction of the air - but it is also a bit risky (not that I'm saying they took a risk, or did something 'risky', but simply that there was risk involved. They may have had intelligence (information) on the temperature of the hold that allowed them to know that the was not a flashover risk. They may have had no choice. Perhaps they could see, using thermal imaging, that the fire was relatively localized.

From what I understand, in this case they kept the hold closed until the agent in the compartment had fully discharged. I was thinking they may have done this not to put the firefighters into an environment that was saturated with halon, and new halon still being introduced.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 116):
I do not know of any reputable company who would knowingly not comply with these regulations. That covers a very large percentage of air freight and there are already checks in place to make sure things comply as much as possible.

We need to also remember that these aircraft and passengers are insured, I do not know how you could obtain insurance unless the airline can demonstrate the procedures used to accept DGs and luggage.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949

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