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SVJ77W
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Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:59 am

I just read about this in todays UAE based newspaper about a Saudi passenger aircraft aborted take-off in the Gulf Kingdom after hitting a pole on the runway near the airport, causing damage to its engine fans and one tyre.

The link below explains more but seems like a very unusual incident.

http://www.emirates247.com/news/regi...dent-on-runway-2013-04-29-1.504391

Does anyone more on this. Has a similar incident happened before?
 
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pvjin
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:16 am

“The accident was caused after a chain connecting the aircraft to the vehicle snapped as it was pushing the plane back to prepare for takeoff,” Sabq newspaper said.

If that's true it doesn't seem like it ever even entered runway, more like pushback incident.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
HAL
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:19 am

After reading the article, the accident didn't happen on the runway, but during pushback on the ramp. The article also said it was the 'chain' that snapped, but I don't know of any airline that uses a chain to attach the tug to the aircraft - only towbars. I'll withhold any more judgment until a better description of the accident comes out.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
SVJ77W
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:37 am

Yeah, the title of the article is misleading and it mentions hitting a pole at the runway in the article + aborted take off... sounds very unrealistic, if that was a aborted takeoff the damage would have been far greater that what is seen in that image and same time a chain snapped at push back. Very strange in any case and a costly incident it is for a minor accident.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:09 pm

The article lists a number of airplane incident related articles that all must have been written by the same journalist. "The passengers panicked" is prominent in each article - regardless of the incident, well except for one article - the engine failure on take off - where the cabin crew and passengers stampeded(!)
 
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BasilFawlty
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:19 pm

Aircraft involved is HZ-AK16, their newest 77W. Here's some video footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuMygpUyo9o
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
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zkojq
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:22 pm


Ouch.  
First to fly the 787-9
 
CXB77L
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:39 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 6):
Ouch.

Ouch indeed. Looks like a new engine cowling will be needed.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
mmedford
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:40 pm

Should buff right out...
ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
 
Q
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:05 pm

It is not on the runway accident. It's on tarmac apron. I thought the plane on runway accident.

Q
 
babybus
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:26 pm

According to the manufacturer of the cowling doors that I met at a BA Open Day, each door on the engine housing costs £2million. Looks like they'll need two new doors and a new metal de-ice lip (don't know its name or its cost).

It will be interesting to read the whole story, if it gets published.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:42 pm

watched the video...

how in the heck did the tow bar get -- my assumption -- thrown into the engine cowling? what could have caused that much force? it's almost as if it was shot up by a sling shot. or was it somehow latched in an upright position to the push back truck and it grazed across the front of the cowling? maybe that's more likely, but it doesn't really make sense either.
 
goosebayguy
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:19 pm

Looks to be the typical kind of event in Saudi Arabia. I did hear stories many years ago that locals were not permitted to fly internationally unless there was a Western Captain at the helm. If you search carefully you can find photos of a tornado being installed on a roundabout. Except the Tornado was too heavy and the crane fell over. I think this was in Taif. I pity the tug driver though he might never get to leave the country until he pays off the debt. Probably only earns $5 a day too.
 
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zeke
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:23 pm

My guess is the 777 crew applied their brakes during pushbash snapping the towbar and the damage we see is where the tug hit the aircraft.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
rwy31r
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:38 pm

The Aircraft involved is one of the newer 777-300ER HZ-AK16.
"Saudia Three Five hold short Three One Right"
 
SVJ77W
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:19 pm

Really is a clear sign of missing out on a few SOPs clearly and seems a costly one at that. Its a shame its a brand new aircraft that was involved. Hope more news comes in on this. Incidents such as these are rarely reported in the media here. Emirates24/7 spills out a bit more than the others in this part of the world.
 
SVJ77W
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:30 pm

I found this from Saudi based Newspaper Website. Something about the news is not right. Minor collision with a tow truck it seems.

http://www.arabnews.com/news/449792
 
slcguy
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:17 pm

Poor title for the thread, and not a not very good translation to English in the report. Looks like a tow bar snapped on push back resulting in the tug and or tow bar hitting the engine. A tug under load pushing 500K pounds will surge forward like a dragster for a short distance if the load is suddenly gone. Looks like tug was removed from scene before pictures were taken, but the tire marks on the pavement are still there. Appears like tug was turning to the left and spinning out .

[Edited 2013-04-29 14:01:27]
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting SVJ77W (Reply 16):
Minor collision with a tow truck it seems.

Collision with a maintenance vehicle sounds much more plausible and consistent with the damage shown.
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:24 pm

Quoting SLCGuy (Reply 17):

Poor title for the thread, and not a not very good translation to English in the report. Looks like a tow bar snapped on push back resulting in the tug and or tow bar hitting the engine. A tug under load pushing 500K pounds will surge forward like a dragster for a short distance if the load is suddenly gone.

so they were pushing back and turning at the moment it broke, and the direction of the tug was right at the engine cowling.

that actually makes sense.
 
fghtngsiouxatc
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:30 pm

I noticed in the video that the nose gear is turned almost 90 degrees. Is it possible that over-stressing the nose gear or exceeding the turn limit would fling the tow bar at the engine?
 
slcguy
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:47 pm

Quoting tockeyhockey (Reply 19):
so they were pushing back and turning at the moment it broke, and the direction of the tug was right at the engine cowling.

that actually makes sense.


Seen this happen twice in SLC, in both cases the tugs hit the fuselage instead of engines. Expensive repair to both a 737 and a Gulfstream, gladly both aircraft were returned to service.
 
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jumbojim747
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:04 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 7):

Ouch indeed. Looks like a new engine cowling will be needed.

Also looks like a few blades got the treatment .
On a wing and a prayer
 
HiJazzey
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:43 pm

Well this is what the uploader of the video says happened:

When engine 2 was started up, an overspeed occured. The towbar broke and the plane collided with the tug.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 12):
Looks to be the typical kind of event in Saudi Arabia. I did hear stories many years ago that locals were not permitted to fly internationally unless there was a Western Captain at the helm. If you search carefully you can find photos of a tornado being installed on a roundabout. Except the Tornado was too heavy and the crane fell over. I think this was in Taif. I pity the tug driver though he might never get to leave the country until he pays off the debt. Probably only earns $5 a day too.

Well thanks for relaying those tall tales. Impossible in reality as SV's flight crew are predominantly local. Still you'll be relieved to find that SV hasn't suffered many hull losses despite having to rely on those dim witted towel heads :rolleyes:
 
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CCA
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:43 pm

I believe the engine went to a high thrust immediately after it started. Breaking the tow bar then moved forward while rotating left hitting the tug with the said engine.

Possible thrust lever not at idle during the start, which has happened before resulting in a broken tow bar and aircraft moving towards the tug.
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N243NW
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:00 am

Quoting CCA (Reply 24):
Possible thrust lever not at idle during the start, which has happened before resulting in a broken tow bar and aircraft moving towards the tug.

If this is truly the case, wouldn't it make a somewhat justifiable case for the addition of "thrust lever at idle" as part of the engine autostart sequence? I wonder how much work it would be to implement...a discrete output from the autothrottle switchpacks to the EECs, maybe?
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
HAL
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Wed May 01, 2013 2:09 am

Quoting N243NW (Reply 25):
If this is truly the case, wouldn't it make a somewhat justifiable case for the addition of "thrust lever at idle" as part of the engine autostart sequence?

That is a part of every 'before start' checklist I've used in my career- Boeing, Airbus, Douglas & Saab all had it. I know the standard Boeing checklist has it, so I'd be surprised if Saudi didn't have it on their checklists too.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Wed May 01, 2013 2:30 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 26):

That is a part of every 'before start' checklist I've used in my career- Boeing, Airbus, Douglas & Saab all had it. I know the standard Boeing checklist has it, so I'd be surprised if Saudi didn't have it on their checklists too.

HAL

Part of the normal procedures but no longer part of the checklist.
 
N243NW
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Wed May 01, 2013 4:15 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 26):
That is a part of every 'before start' checklist I've used in my career

Sorry, I should have been more specific - I was talking more about a physical limitation in the aircraft autostart logic rather than a checklist procedure. That way it would be pretty much foolproof...albeit maybe not worth the extra cost.
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
HAL
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Wed May 01, 2013 7:04 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 27):

Part of the normal procedures but no longer part of the checklist.

No, for all the airlines I've flown for, it's been an actual challenge/response part of the before start checklist.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Wed May 01, 2013 7:52 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 29):
Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 27):
Part of the normal procedures but no longer part of the checklist.

No, for all the airlines I've flown for, it's been an actual challenge/response part of the before start checklist.

HAL

Since the introduction of the 757/767 (mid 80's) all Boeing checklists have no challenge/reply for "Thrust Levers". At the time many of the operators chose to modify Boeing's checklist to look similar to the 707/727/737/747 checklists they were using feeling the Boeing checklists did not include enough items. For comparison a 747-200 checklist included 25 items thru start while a 747-400 included only 11. These days I think most airlines use the Boeing Checklist/FCOM to save the expense of writing their own.
 
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CCA
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RE: Saudi 777 In Runway Accident

Wed May 01, 2013 10:07 pm

Quoting N243NW (Reply 28):
Quoting HAL (Reply 26):
That is a part of every 'before start' checklist I've used in my career

Sorry, I should have been more specific - I was talking more about a physical limitation in the aircraft autostart logic rather than a checklist procedure. That way it would be pretty much foolproof...albeit maybe not worth the extra cost.

The problem is then the thrust lever position is preventing a start, any fault that develops in the thrust lever position could then prevent starting the engine.

Plus autostart is active with the engine at power, it monitors it for flameout and intervenes when necessary.

If a crew had an engine fail for whatever reason and then couldn't start the engines because of a thrust lever fault that would not be good.

Less complex less to go wrong the last thing you need is something stopping an engine.
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