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comorin
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:47 pm

Does the nose lift up for cargo access in this type? (747-428BCF).

/RIP crew.
 
Revo1059
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:55 pm

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 52):

Looks like this one does...............so I would say......"try again"

http://www.automobilemag.com/feature..._vehicle_afghanistan/photo_03.html
 
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speedygonzales
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:55 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 54):
Does the nose lift up for cargo access in this type? (747-428BCF).

No, only on factory built freighters, and in any case the side door can take taller and wider cargo the the nose door. The nose door can of course take much longer cargo.
Ignorance kills. :tombstone:
 
PHX787
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:57 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 54):
Does the nose lift up for cargo access in this type? (747-428BCF).

From the photo in the following quote, it looks like this aircraft didn't have this capability:

Quoting libsport (Reply 38):
This a/c was just at Hill AFB, UT last week. departed here Saturday 27 April around mid-day. Got this photo of it late Friday afternoon.

Does anyone have any link to the ATC recordings?
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neutronstar73
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:59 pm

Quoting Revo1059 (Reply 55):

WOW! I know we shipped all our MRAPs via C-17 or AN-124, or by truck to seaport, because they don't have to remove the turret and upgun mount. Looks like I do need to try again!

Thanks for the education...
 
rfields5421
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:11 pm

Quoting Revo1059 (Reply 55):
Looks like this one does.

Amazing - thanks for the link. Learned something new.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
Revo1059
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:12 pm

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 58):

No problem. All good   
 
airtran737
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:17 pm

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 52):
No way in hell an MRAP would fit in a 747. Nope. Try again.

Considering both Flyer732 and myself are loadmasters on the 747 and the MD-11 and have done dozens of these flights, I would take his word on it. You have to pull the turret and the antenna, but 5 of them fit on a 747 with no issues.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:32 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 54):
Does the nose lift up for cargo access in this type? (747-428BCF).

No.

Besides the few -200Cs, has any pax to cargo converted 747 ever had a nose cargo door fitted ?
 
PanHAM
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:50 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 63):
Besides the few -200Cs, has any pax to cargo converted 747 ever had a nose cargo door fitted ?

No, the nose door comes on factory build freighters only All pax to cargo comversions likew this one get a large side door.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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135mech
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:53 pm

RIP! This is a truly sad event! Prayers and condolences to the family and friends!   

Regards,
135Mech
135Mech
 
Flyer732
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:07 pm

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 52):
No way in hell an MRAP would fit in a 747. Nope. Try again.

Guess I'll have to rethink the 15+ flights I worked where I put 5 MRAP's on a 747-400. Not to mention, Atlas, Polar and Kalitta who were doing it right next to us.

http://www.worldairways.com/company-news-release.php?id=20
 
bueb0g
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:30 pm

There's now a video of the accident. Totally surreal.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c32_1367332518

Confirms the eyewitness reports. Completely crazy.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 66):
Confirms the eyewitness reports. Completely crazy.

I'm speechless.
 
cargotanker
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:38 pm

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 52):
No way in hell an MRAP would fit in a 747. Nope. Try again.
Quoting Flyer732 (Reply 66):
Guess I'll have to rethink the 15+ flights I worked where I put 5 MRAP's on a 747-400. Not to mention, Atlas, Polar and Kalitta who were doing it right next to us.

There are a variety of MRAPs. The Oshkosh M-ATV weighs around 30K lbs, the Buffalo is taller, significantly bigger, and weighs around 45K lbs. So, technically you could all be correct, depending on what MRAP you are referring to. I had no clue the floor on a 747F was strong enough for a 30K lb vehicle.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:39 pm

Damn, it's like watching a sci-fi movie. Unbelievable.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
airtran737
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:39 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 66):
There's now a video of the accident. Totally surreal.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c32_1367332518

Confirms the eyewitness reports. Completely crazy.

Poor bastards. God be with them.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
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c172akula
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:41 pm

No words while watching that video. Terrible.
 
Gatorman96
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:43 pm

That may be one of the most amazing (in a terrible way) aviation videos I have ever seen. RIP to the crew and prayers to their families. I hope they never see this video...
 
na
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 66):

Good god, that looks surreal indeed.
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:52 pm

That video is one of the most horrifying things I ever seen in my life. I got nausea and a tight knot in my throat.
At least this is useful to confirm that all the claims made by Talibans of the plane being downed by a terrorist attack were just bluff.

Regards.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:54 pm

I think the video supports the theory of a cargo shift putting it off balance.
 
PHX787
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:58 pm

God help the guy driving that car too...must be horrific to watch.

I want to make some notes here, at the risk of arm-chairing....
The aircraft when it appeard in the video was moving, but then abruptly slowed and pitched a bit to the left (its left)....then it stopped dead, rolled right, and began to fall at a very impressive speed, and it looked like it slammed into the ground nose-first.

I could hear too that the pilots were applying full thrust the whole time. But at that height and with an aircraft this large, unfortunately a stall like that is completely unrecoverable.
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bennett123
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:59 pm

May be just me, but the vehicle that the camera was mounted on seemed to be meandering around.
 
Okie
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:00 pm

Sickening,
Even after they got the nose back down the airspeed looked only in double digits.

Very disturbing.

Okie
 
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KPDX
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:01 pm

That video made me sick... I just cannot believe that. How horrifying that must have been for the people on that plane.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:01 pm

Did anyone else notice that the landing gear was still down? It rose to a height of 1500 ft I thought (or according to video it looked like it was at a height that the gear would normally be raised). I wonder if they lowered it thinking they could turn back around and make an emergency landing.
 
theweave33
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:07 pm

Yeah landing gear down made me think they didn't even have a chance to put it up.
 
PHX787
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:07 pm

Let me just say again that video is not for the faint of heart...maybe that should've been added as a warning above...

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 80):
Did anyone else notice that the landing gear was still down?

That's what I saw too, which may suggest the stall and load shift began early in the climb, and the pilots were not so much as worried about the gear as they were about keeping the aircraft up.... of course again this is arm-chairing....
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
Alpage
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:09 pm

Lord in Heavens !! He basically stalled ... why ? My prayers to those Crewmen.
 
Carmelo
Posts: 52
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:15 pm

Could it be that they had a pretty bad loaded plane like heavy stuff in the back of the plane and the strong headwinds made the plane stall like this?!
Carmelo
 
BMI727
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 66):
There's now a video of the accident. Totally surreal.

The pilots appeared to do everything they could to save it and just didn't have the altitude and airspeed.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 77):
May be just me, but the vehicle that the camera was mounted on seemed to be meandering around.

Probably was. Dash cams are common in some of the more chaotic countries.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:31 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 66):
There's now a video of the accident. Totally surreal.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c32_1...32518

Watching that left me speechless..... I actually feel bad for watching it more than once. RIP to those on board   what a way to go...
Life is encrypted, you are modified, Like a virus in a lullaby, Artificial till the day you die, silly programme, You're corrupted
 
ba319-131
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:31 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 66):
There's now a video of the accident. Totally surreal.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c32_1367332518

- I don't think I've ever seen anything so chilling, feel quite speechless, the poor crew, RIP guy's.
111 732 733 734 735 736 73G 738 739,7M8 BBJ 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 764 772 77L 773 77W L15 D10 D30 D40 AB3 AB6 312 313 318 319 320 20N 321 21N 332 333 342 343 345 346 359 351 388 CS1 CS3 I86 154 SSJ CRJ CR7 CR9 CRK 145 170 175 220
 
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kanban
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:33 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 57):
From the photo in the following quote, it looks like this aircraft didn't have this capability:

The thing I notice in the photo is that equipment can only be carried on a 747 with a side cargo door as it is too tall to go under the flight deck floor of a nose loader.
 
Gatorman96
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:38 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 77):
May be just me, but the vehicle that the camera was mounted on seemed to be meandering around.

The vehicle was most likely using the perimeter road to either get to the other side of the airfield or running security.
 
GARUDAROD
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:41 pm

]

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 86):
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c32_1...32518
Watching that left me speechless..... I actually feel bad for watching it more than once. RIP to those on board what a way to go...

Holy Crap. Those poor crew members. That thing literally fell out of the sky. Thoughts and Prayers to all
of their family and friends.

Has anyone ever filmed a major Jet liner crash like that?
Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
 
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northstardc4m
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:46 pm

Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 90):
Has anyone ever filmed a major Jet liner crash like that?

There's been several caught on film...
UA232 at Sioux City springs to mind, FedEx at NRT as well... and the Tu-144 crash at the Paris airshow...

But "like that"... I don't think anyone's ever caught a severe loss of control like this on film.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
Okie
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:47 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 82):
That's what I saw too, which may suggest the stall and load shift began early in the climb, and the pilots were not so much as worried about the gear as they were about keeping the aircraft up.... of course again this is arm-chairing

The only other thought would be runaway/mis-rigged trim.
It seems pretty obvious they were fighting the issue from rotation hence the gear was being neglected to deal with more pertinent issues.

Okie
 
metsfan1
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:48 pm

That was chilling.

If you look carefully it actually looks like the landing gear is being put down. I wonder if they thought that at the very least they could put the gear down quick level and cash land on it.

Trully horrific.
 
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eksath
Crew
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 88):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 57):
From the photo in the following quote, it looks like this aircraft didn't have this capability:

The thing I notice in the photo is that equipment can only be carried on a 747 with a side cargo door as it is too tall to go under the flight deck floor of a nose loader.

This link should settle this side issue about the feasibility of the cargo load that is speculated about for sure.

http://www.charleston.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123176933
World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
b6a322
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:51 pm

this video was posted to nycaviation. its really disturbing. However captures the whole thing.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c32_1367332518
The content I post are my own thoughts, nothing more. :)
 
Okie
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:56 pm

Quoting metsfan1 (Reply 93):
If you look carefully it actually looks like the landing gear is being put down. I wonder if they thought that at the very least they could put the gear down quick level and cash land on it.

  

You may be correct, either the gear is hidden from the camera angle or on the way down.

Okie
 
Gatorman96
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:57 pm

Does National (and other similar carriers), fly in their own loadmasters? Or is the work done by contractors at Bagram? I'm trying to account for the other 5 passengers aboard this flight.
 
A342
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:00 pm

A horrifying video indeed. But I don't know what to make of the obviously wrong date of the video. And the aircraft seems to hover in the sky for a few seconds and then moves awkwardly.

Somehow this looks unreal...
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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barney captain
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:00 pm

Quoting b6a322 (Reply 95):
this video was posted to nycaviation. its really disturbing. However captures the whole thing.

I must be missing something - it appears to be the same video already posted.


Tragic nonetheless, RIP guys.  Sad

[Edited 2013-04-30 10:02:03]
Southeast Of Disorder
 
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pvjin
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:02 pm

R.I.P to the crew, what a sad accident...

That video looks so surreal, while I remember seeing some videos like this such as a video about AN-12 that crashed in Congo but none of them showed the loss of control and everything like this... Just the way how this giant bird falls, it looks so unbelievable and sad...

[Edited 2013-04-30 10:04:15]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
FI642
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:05 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 41):
That eerily sounds like the Fine Air DC-8 crash that happened at MIA in the late 1990s

That was my first thought too, however the Fine Air Crash had essentially no restraints whatsoever

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 51):
23,000 lbs each with the turret removed. I wonder how National loaded them. We had a method for restraining them that worked extremely well. I don't want to second guess the loadmasters, but the MRAP's can be locked in forward and aft, and then about 26 straps will ensure proper restraint in all directions. Something went horrible wrong on this flight, and hopefully the NTSB and FAA can find the root cause quickly so it will be avoided again.

I agree. Center load too.
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
 
rfields5421
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:07 pm

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 97):
I'm trying to account for the other 5 passengers aboard this flight.

I'm assuming a flight like that would usually include two flight deck crews, two loadmasters and one or two mechanics. The owners don't want the aircraft to remain in a war zone for required crew rest. They also want someone who can fix minor mechanical problems.

Quoting A342 (Reply 98):
And the aircraft seems to hover in the sky for a few seconds and then moves awkwardly.

The 'hovering' is caused by the camera angle when the aircraft stalls and moves directly toward the camera.

Yes, stalled aircraft move very awkwardly.

I've seen that happen once in person - a C-130 on Guam.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:08 pm

First of all, that video is heart breaking, those guys never had a chance. My condolences to all involved.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 75):
I think the video supports the theory of a cargo shift putting it off balance.

The crazy angle right after take off seems like a balance shift problem, because no sane pilot would make such a steep climb, the angle was so high that you can see in the horrible video they fell vertically.

Quoting theweave33 (Reply 81):
Yeah landing gear down made me think they didn't even have a chance to put it up.

I concurr, the problem was so fast that they did even pull up the gear...

May they all rest in Peace

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.

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