National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

BMI727 · Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:09 pm

Quoting eksath (Reply 94):
This link should settle this side issue about the feasibility of the cargo load that is speculated about for sure.

I think there is some confusion on the issue, and pretty much everyone is right.

MRAP is not one vehicle but rather a general category of armored transports. The actual vehicles come in various sizes, some of which will fit in 747s and some of which, it appears to me, will not.

The link posted deals with the Oshkosh M-ATV which is one of the smaller MRAPs, roughly equal in capability to a Humvee. Other MRAP vehicles, such as the Buffalo or Caiman, probably won't fit in a 747 or at least would require more dismantling.

737tdi · Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:09 pm

WOW, watching that is very hard. It is hard to put into words how I feel now, Seven souls lost forever recorded. R.I.P..

Western727 · Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:15 pm

Goose bumps. The crew no doubt knew their ends were imminent. I feel for their families with this video out.

135mech · Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:55 pm

Here's the YouTube link again, seems to have been removed from an earlier post!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo51Be2jL8c

I, unfortunately, watched the B-52 crash at Fairchild AFB in 1994, and you never get over seeing something like this in person! This reminded me of that immediately!

Regards,
135Mech

[Edited 2013-04-30 10:58:50]

MrBuzzcut · Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:15 pm

Just out of curiosity, who investigates and issues an official report on an accident like this...a US carrier in a foreign country operating out of a US military controlled air base. NTSB? Air Force? Host country's civil aviation authority (which I don't imagine is the best in Afghanistan if they have one at all)...some combination of the three?

mingocr83 · Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:42 pm

Sad stuff...poor guys, RIP.

dtw9 · Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:07 pm

Five of the seven crew members are from Michigan. I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who retired last year from Southern, he used to fly DC-8's for Murray and knows the father of the first officer that was killed in the crash. The FO, like his father, was a FE with Murray/National on DC-8's up until last summer when he was upgraded to the right seat on 747's. The most tragic part of all of this is that the FO got married just last May on the tarmac at KYIP in front of the Yankee Air Force Museum.

PHLapproach · Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:09 pm

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 97):

Does National (and other similar carriers), fly in their own loadmasters? Or is the work done by contractors at Bagram? I'm trying to account for the other 5 passengers aboard this flight.

Indeed most if not all 121 Supplemental cargo carriers do have one. National had their own as well. 4 Pilots, 2 Mechanics, 1 Loadmaster onboard.

trnswrld · Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:22 pm

OMG watching that video has me just sitting here in awe. I feel so horrible for the crew in that aircraft. Absolutely one of the most chilling videos I have seen.

Western727 · Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:28 pm

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 112):
4 Pilots

Why 4...for the relatively short hop (1,065 nm) of OAI-DXB, in theory? Deadheaders, or do they add relief flight crews on war-zone flights...or might it something else entirely?

PHLapproach · Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:53 pm

Quoting Western727 (Reply 114):
Why 4...for the relatively short hop (1,065 nm) of OAI-DXB, in theory? Deadheaders, or do they add relief flight crews on war-zone flights...or might it something else entirely?

Yes, those Supplemental carriers are just hopping around so it's good to have another crew deadhead with the aircraft to reduce down time when that first crew times out.

Flying Belgian · Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:07 pm

Seems like that plane was operating for the French army recently as it was regulary spotted in CHR (many pics of it on french forums dating back to the day before the crash).

Never saw such video in my life. Makes think to nightmares you do when you see a plane falling in front of you.

RIP to all crew and families. It's obviously a tragical loading mistake. How horrible...

ogre727 · Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:37 pm

Nothing to say, except RIP. that video ruined my night. Strength and love to their families.

Braniff747SP · Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:54 pm

Quoting MrBuzzcut (Reply 108):
NTSB? Air Force? Host country's civil aviation authority (which I don't imagine is the best in Afghanistan if they have one at all)...some combination of the three?

Combo, theoretically, of the nation in which the accident happened, the nation of the aircraft's registry, and the nation of the manufacturer.

I have a feeling that the NTSB is going to be leading this one.

DUSint · Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:06 pm

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 91):
There's been several caught on film...
UA232 at Sioux City springs to mind, FedEx at NRT as well... and the Tu-144 crash at the Paris airshow...

But "like that"... I don't think anyone's ever caught a severe loss of control like this on film.

It reminded me of this Globemaster crash (stall) I saw some weeks ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Layz-3XxZC4

Though probably not having the same cause, both accidents are horrifying.

tb727 · Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:07 pm

I couldn't even finish the video. Fire and load shift are a cargo pilots worst fears. My dispatcher told me right after it happened while I was on a fuel stop yesterday and I haven't stopped thinking about it since. RIP to my fellow YIP freightdogs.

ssteve · Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:11 pm

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 91):
Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 90):
Has anyone ever filmed a major Jet liner crash like that?

There's been several caught on film...
UA232 at Sioux City springs to mind, FedEx at NRT as well... and the Tu-144 crash at the Paris airshow...

But "like that"... I don't think anyone's ever caught a severe loss of control like this on film.

1994 B-52 crash at Fairchild AFB.

Btblue · Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:29 pm

That is truly shocking. I only happened to see it as the video was posted on a news website.

RIP - condolences to their families and loved ones.

tonyban · Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:10 pm

OMG ! I just saw the video and it's very traumatizing. I feel horrible. RIP to the souls lost. This is very sad and tragic.

BasilFawlty · Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:25 pm

Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 90):
Has anyone ever filmed a major Jet liner crash like that?

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 91):
There's been several caught on film...
UA232 at Sioux City springs to mind, FedEx at NRT as well... and the Tu-144 crash at the Paris airshow...

As well as the Red Wings Tu-204 at VKO, the Air France A320 at MLH, the Air France Concorde on fire shortly before the crash and probably some more...

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 91):
But "like that"... I don't think anyone's ever caught a severe loss of control like this on film.

In poor quality, but still: Azza Transport B707F in SHJ in late 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij52auSx1Eo

9lflyguy · Wed May 01, 2013 12:35 am

The just 30 seconds of absolute sheer terror in that cockpit. That video is terrifying. My heart goes out to the crew and their families. May your skies be forever blue and smooth. 3

mcdu · Wed May 01, 2013 12:59 am

Quoting Western727 (Reply 114):
Why 4...for the relatively short hop (1,065 nm) of OAI-DXB, in theory? Deadheaders, or do they add relief flight crews on war-zone flights...or might it something else entirely?

Generally they will bring two crews as no one wants to have crews layover in Afghan. So they have one crew fly in and the other fly out.

F9Animal · Wed May 01, 2013 1:03 am

The crew fought that hard, and appears they were close to a recovery. Obvious altitude and speed were not enough. I am amazed they were able to level out at the last second. I agree with others, the video makes my stomach churn. I cant imagine what was being said in that cockpit during the final seconds. Like I said earlier, I am very doubtful this will be contribited to airmanship issues. These guys behind those controls were some of the best.

ANITIX87 · Wed May 01, 2013 1:26 am

Disclaimer: I am not claiming that the video is falsified or that this is a conspiracy, or that the driver expected it to happen. The wrong date on the video could be as simple as a new camera that was never set to the correct date.

I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound.

TIS

alberchico · Wed May 01, 2013 1:26 am

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 124):
Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 91):
But "like that"... I don't think anyone's ever caught a severe loss of control like this on film.

there was DH Buffalo that went down because of a gust lock that was not removed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUlVP52tMs8

tockeyhockey · Wed May 01, 2013 1:28 am

reminds me most of this crash...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by7fzs6paic

tockeyhockey · Wed May 01, 2013 1:32 am

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
Disclaimer: I am not claiming that the video is falsified or that this is a conspiracy, or that the driver expected it to happen. The wrong date on the video could be as simple as a new camera that was never set to the correct date.

I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound.

some of these people have seen a lot of death and are probably numb to it.

KPDX · Wed May 01, 2013 1:38 am

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound.

Everyone reacts differently, sir. This is definitely the real deal...

I watched a Hawker Hunter Mk.58 stall and explode into a fireball, killing the pilot, and I didn't make a peep... Shock, my friend. No doubt this guy was in complete shock. Notice how only after he pulls over and has time to comprehend it does he curse.

beau222 · Wed May 01, 2013 1:42 am

I hope the family does not view this video.

Braniff747SP · Wed May 01, 2013 1:44 am

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound

If you're in Afghanistan... I have a feeling it takes quite a lot to faze someone.

Starlionblue · Wed May 01, 2013 1:50 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 103):
The crazy angle right after take off seems like a balance shift problem, because no sane pilot would make such a steep climb, the angle was so high that you can see in the horrible video they fell vertically.

It is very hard to judge angle like that. It is also quite amazing how steeply airliners can climb if they have light loads (not saying this was the case here).

Quoting F9animal (Reply 127):

The crew fought that hard, and appears they were close to a recovery. Obvious altitude and speed were not enough. I am amazed they were able to level out at the last second.

As I see it they were nowhere near recovery. The wing is quite stalled except perhaps in the final split second.

I speculate that the pilot was instinctively trying to level the wings as a first step towards recovery.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 127):
I cant imagine what was being said in that cockpit during the final seconds

Complete speculation but I would give good odds that it was all flight related. Good pilots never give up.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound.

Different people react to these things differently.

Gonzalo · Wed May 01, 2013 1:54 am

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver.

I can think in two possible explanations. One, this guy is in a very violent/dangerous place, maybe for many months or years now. It is a war zone. Maybe he saw large explosions dozens of times before. The other explanation is almost the opposite situation. Maybe he was just too shocked in the first seconds, processing the images in his mind and thinking what kind of threat was this for his life. To be honest, after several hours after this video came out, I still have chills in my back thinking in the noises in that cockpit, the screams and desperation of the poor guys on board.... I´m too with those who expect the family and friends of the crew members don´t ever see this video.

Rgds.
G.

flymia · Wed May 01, 2013 1:55 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 77):

May be just me, but the vehicle that the camera was mounted on seemed to be meandering around.

Dashcam and I think I heard the guy speaking English might have been some type of military/authority security guy. Seems at first the way he parked his car he parked it to block the road like a police car would.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):

Given the way he drove his car I think he is military or some type of security etc.. He has probably seen so much S**T in his life that his response would be like that.

The video was just awful. I too thought I saw the gear coming down right before impact. This was by far the worst air crash video I have ever seen. RIP to all lost. Really a horrbile accident and I too doubt pilot error is involved. Reminded me of the Fine Air crash at MIA too.

boeingfixer · Wed May 01, 2013 1:58 am

Quoting alberchico (Reply 129):
there was DH Buffalo that went down because of a gust lock that was not removed:

With all due respect this was a Caribou that was modified with turboprops and not a Buffalo. The final determination was that the control locks were still engaged. Please get your facts straight.

There's a lot of amateur lawn-chair pilot/investigator conjecture going on here that has no bearing in fact. There are several variables that could cause an accident of this sort and blurting them out as fact only brings out the ignorant responses that have been posted. I will not give my thoughts on the cause as they have no basis in fact and I will await the investigation outcome with anticipation and grieve the loss of fellow freight haulers.

May they rest in Piece!

Regards,

John

Starlionblue · Wed May 01, 2013 2:03 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 138):
I too thought I saw the gear coming down right before impact.

It is very hard to tell but I think it was down before. You just can't see it because of the airplane structure behind it. If you look around 0:20 I think you can see the left wing gear wheels outlined against the sky at the wing/fuselage intersection..

In any case getting the gear down at that point was probably not a priority. It seems more likely they hand't raised it yet after take-off.

theweave33 · Wed May 01, 2013 2:04 am

On second look it appears the landing gear is coming down in the last seconds before ground impact. Even if they thought they could put it down in the field, landing gear is contraindicated in ground ditching; am I correct?

Well on third and fourth looks...I don't know. Its very tough to tell if it was put down in the last seconds or the gear just defined against the bright sky as it leveled.

[Edited 2013-04-30 19:07:19]

[Edited 2013-04-30 19:08:43]

sprout5199 · Wed May 01, 2013 2:08 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 82):
That's what I saw too, which may suggest the stall and load shift began early in the climb, and the pilots were not so much as worried about the gear as they were about keeping the aircraft up.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 103):
The crazy angle right after take off seems like a balance shift problem, because no sane pilot would make such a steep climb, the angle was so high that you can see in the horrible video they fell vertically.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 127):
The crew fought that hard, and appears they were close to a recovery. Obvious altitude and speed were not enough. I am amazed they were able to level out at the last second. I agree with others, the video makes my stomach churn. I cant imagine what was being said in that cockpit during the final seconds

They were fighting it all the way down. Poor souls, RIP. Makes me think about the weight and balance on my little 150. The only thing I can say is they died doing what they loved---flying.

Dan in Jupiter

Starlionblue · Wed May 01, 2013 2:13 am

Quoting boeingfixer (Reply 139):
There's a lot of amateur lawn-chair pilot/investigator conjecture going on here that has no bearing in fact. There are several variables that could cause an accident of this sort and blurting them out as fact only brings out the ignorant responses that have been posted.

I think most people here understand that it is speculation and not real investigation. These threads tend to become very interesting because aviation professionals speculate and discuss possibilities.

Yes, there are people who blurt out "facts" but I think the pros (and I certainly don't count myself in that number) are careful not to deal in certainties.

flymia · Wed May 01, 2013 2:37 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 140):
It is very hard to tell but I think it was down before. You just can't see it because of the airplane structure behind it. If you look around 0:20 I think you can see the left wing gear wheels outlined against the sky at the wing/fuselage intersection..

In any case getting the gear down at that point was probably not a priority. It seems more likely they hand't raised it yet after take-off.

I agree gear was the last thing on the list. I think you are right some camera angle makes it seem like it was coming down.

You could tell this crew was fighting till the last minute as any great crew would. Again just a horrible accident caught on film. The film will help investigators thought. The NTSB will be going there I read.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 143):
I think most people here understand that it is speculation and not real investigation. These threads tend to become very interesting because aviation professionals speculate and discuss possibilities.

Yes, there are people who blurt out "facts" but I think the pros (and I certainly don't count myself in that number) are careful not to deal in certainties.

Agreed. I don't see why we can't share our opinions on the matter especially those who fly or are involved in aviation for a living. I don't think anyone considers what they are saying as "fact"

F9Animal · Wed May 01, 2013 2:39 am

I love reading what people speculate on here. I also love rumours. If someone wants to share their thoughts, opinions, facts, and so on..... Why not? We do have armchair pilots, flight attendants, ground crews, and CEOs on this site. But, we also have the real meal deals on here. I have learned a ton of interesting things about airplanes and airlines on here. It is a valuable tool!

Now, back to the subject.... Does anyone think that a extra thousand or two thousand feet might have resulted in a different outcome?

boacvc10 · Wed May 01, 2013 2:42 am

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound.

I was also surprised at this... I wonder why nothing was communicated as the vehicle had a radio / antenna

Starlionblue · Wed May 01, 2013 2:48 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 145):
Now, back to the subject.... Does anyone think that a extra thousand or two thousand feet might have resulted in a different outcome?

With the speculation hat firmly on, that really depends on the underlying cause. If the cargo had shifted the CG way back beyond limtis and stayed there, then probably not. Any pitch movement would keep diverging. Then again the cargo could shift back forward, which would make the aircraft stable again. But they'd have to keep the nose down to keep it from shifting back. All in all, probably unrecoverable.

If this was "simply" a stall due to a stabilizer trim set much too far nose up, then recovery would have been possible, but it would have taken several thousand feet. I would also point out that I really don't know that much about this scenario. I suppose that if the pitch trim was set very wrong, it might be counterable with downward elevator.

If it was a stall due to pitch control malfunction, it depends on the type of malfunction.

Speculation hat off.

[Edited 2013-04-30 19:49:47]

[Edited 2013-04-30 19:54:09]

ltbewr · Wed May 01, 2013 2:50 am

I presume the recorders will be relatively easy to locate, hopefully in good condition to get the data needed in the investigation.

Could there have been some kind of mechanical failures, such as an engine, a flap jammed ? One cannot exclude those factors.

What a sad sight.

Starlionblue · Wed May 01, 2013 2:55 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 148):
Could there have been some kind of mechanical failures, such as an engine, a flap jammed ? One cannot exclude those factors.

Absolutely cannot exclude those. However a "simple" engine failure is extensively trained for. Also the right and left elevators run from separate hydraulic systems.

zkojq · Wed May 01, 2013 3:01 am

That video is unbelievably frightening, It must be incredibly scary having a stalling 747 coming quickly towards one.

RIP to the crew onboard, those final seconds would have been terrifying. My thoughts are with their families, friends and also with their colleagues at National Air Cargo - everyone knows everyone at small firms like that.

One question this brings to mind is what condition will the MRAPs currently be in? Those vehicles are designed to withstand a substantial amount of damage (though probably not on this magnitude).

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 7):
The National Cargo livery is really beautiful.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 145):
Does anyone think that a extra thousand or two thousand feet might have resulted in a different outcome?

They may have been able to reduce their vertical speed somewhat which would have made the crash smoother.

[Edited 2013-04-30 20:11:31]

SocalApproach · Wed May 01, 2013 3:06 am

Very Disturbing Footage to say the least.

wjcandee · Wed May 01, 2013 3:10 am

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 61):
Considering both Flyer732 and myself are loadmasters on the 747 and the MD-11 and have done dozens of these flights, I would take his word on it. You have to pull the turret and the antenna, but 5 of them fit on a 747 with no issues.

And your old company once put SIX on their 747-400.

http://www.worldairways.com/company-news-release.php?id=20

mirrodie · Wed May 01, 2013 3:24 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 31):
Amazing how many armchair experts have already solved the accident.

Some things never change.

Heart stopping footage, never thought I could envision a 747 in that manner. Its so sad considering how far we've come and yet, how these things can still happen.

flymia · Wed May 01, 2013 3:28 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 148):
Could there have been some kind of mechanical failures, such as an engine, a flap jammed ? One cannot exclude those factors.

Besides for a cargo shift or something going wrong with the trim/elevator there are probably other possible reasons but highly doubt an engine failure even all four of them would do something like this. The airplane is fully able to fly with an engine or two out also.

United727 · Wed May 01, 2013 3:45 am

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 151):
Very Disturbing Footage

Pilots are incredibly well trained. We've heard it before...all the tests, training, type-ratings, simulator time, flight time and again more recurrent training. No matter if you're private or an ATP, you train for every "conceivable" situation, but each and every pilot knows that its not "IF" an incident could/will occur, it's "When". These pilots unfortunately got the short stick. May they all Rest in Peace.

As for "Disturbing Footage", Yes it is, but this footage should be used for educational purposes to solve why it happened and possibly to come up with solutions so it never happens again. This footage should be humbling and SOBERING for ALL FLIGHT CREW MEMBERS. No PILOT is exempt from something like this. It's my hope that NONE of you on this forum, or any pilots worldwide for that matter, ever have to be in a seat of an aircraft in a situation like this!

Even more disturbing for me was seeing this plane only one week earlier in RFD. Then watching the video...

[Edited 2013-04-30 20:46:54]

[Edited 2013-04-30 20:50:22]

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net