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rfields5421
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 4:13 am

Quoting 9lflyguy (Reply 125):
The just 30 seconds of absolute sheer terror in that cockpit.

I wish people would stop saying things like this. CVR transcripts and recordings show that the cockpit crews almost never drop into panic or sheer terror mode. They keep fighting to control the aircraft to the very end.

In another current thread on JAL 123 - the discussion is what could the crew have done. Those guys flew a barely controllable airplane for 32 minutes. The crew of UA 232 stayed in the air longer with also several control issues.

The crew of the Gimli Glider and the Air Transat A330 both found themselves glider pilots - and in the Air Transat case - 135 miles from land over the open ocean.

Pilots in all those flights knew the chances of survival were extremely low, but three of those crews made it. Over and over crews that keep fighting to keep the airplane in the air until they can land.

Pilots don't panic, don't give in to terror. They keep working to try to save the plane, and themselves. It is clear to me from the video that the crew of this plane was trying to minimize the impact. They were in panic or terror.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound.

The video was likely from a US military contractor escorting the white van across the area. More than likely the driver was a former US military person who has seen death up close. It is also very likely this isn't the first airplane he saw crash at that airport.

I've seen three aircraft crash. I've been to two high fatality crash sites which the wreckage still smoking before any bodies are removed. I've been to at least two dozen other crash sites of small military trainers / fighters - some fatal. I've seen a helicopter (CH-53) an flip over - throwing parts of the blades close to 500 yards. I've also been a survivor of a large car bomb attack, and helped recover dozens of remains.

It's not to say that I or other people become numb or insensitive, but you learn what has to be done, what your personal responsibilities and priorities have to be. That you MUST do your job, so that others can do their job of recovery or rescue.

Standing around in shock or in awe of seeing a plane like that go down, or having an emotional reaction - does no one any good, and can very likely put your life in danger, and the lives of the people you are responsible to keep safe.
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FlyDeltaJets
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 4:19 am

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound.

It's called pure shock. Sometimes it even causes people to be paralyzed, like for example when a train or car is bearing down on them. Watching a video of something and seeing it live and in person are 2 completely different things.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
uncgso
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 5:09 am

how much cargo would have to shift in order to bring down a 744?

that vid is horrific to say the least ... my prayers are with the families of the crew ...
 
fdxgirl
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 5:34 am

with all due respect to all who perished in this horrifying event. does anyone else find it extremely odd that the said camera mounted car just happened to be in the "perfect" spot to capture it all? just sayin.....
 
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Navigator
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 5:42 am

Quoting uncgso (Reply 158):
how much cargo would have to shift in order to bring down a 744?

Interesting question. I think pretty much weight must be moving backwards pretty fast to make it stall like this. But a lot must have gone wrong during loading in that case. Cargo has in that case not been secured properly.

Another possibility is control problems because of some sort of mechanical failure. And what if the elevators got stuck in an unfortunate upward position because of debris preventing them to move after lift off. I think that happened to a DC-8 at JFK long ago. Perhaps something (FOD) got stuck and prevented elevator movement. Perhaps there is a lot of stuff blowing around when a 744 takes off in an airport like this. Just speculation...

[Edited 2013-04-30 22:46:40]
747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
 
ogre727
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 5:45 am

Quoting fdxgirl (Reply 159):

Why people love conspiracies so much is beyond me. The "just sayin'" bit makes it sound even dumber in my brain, but thats just me.
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 5:48 am

Here is what happened at JFK to a DC-8. Could this have happened to this 744?

"TIA was involved in a single fatal accident, involving a Douglas DC-8 N8963T ferry flight, with eight flight attendants and three cockpit crewmembers on board, en route from John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York City to Washington Dulles International Airport. On September 8, 1970 a foreign object became wedged between the right elevator and horizontal stabilizer, blown there by backwash from the aircraft preceding it on the taxiway. The problem was not detected, and the aircraft crashed upon takeoff with the loss of all 11 on board."
747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 5:50 am

Quoting fdxgirl (Reply 159):
does anyone else find it extremely odd that the said camera mounted car just happened to be in the "perfect" spot to capture it all? just sayin.....

Not surprising really. The use of dashcams is a widespread practice nowadays, specially in some countries. If you check YouTube you will see literally hundreds ( maybe thousands ) of car crashes, trucks flipping over and all kind of "wild stuff" filmed with dashcams. There are several modern devices available, with capabilities to work as dashcams, some of them really cheap compared with the times when I was young ( and you need a suitcase full of money to have a handycam ). This will be more and more common in the future.

Rgds.
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goboeing
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 5:51 am

Quoting fdxgirl (Reply 159):
with all due respect to all who perished in this horrifying event. does anyone else find it extremely odd that the said camera mounted car just happened to be in the "perfect" spot to capture it all? just sayin.....

The camera mount to this vehicle was in the perfect spot to capture it all.

That cannot be said for dozens of other vehicles on the field.

Analogous to the saying, "even a broken clock is right twice a day."

Any spot these days is generally scanned by some camera, in any densely populated area such as a military installation.
 
RIXrat
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 5:57 am

The driver whose dash-cam took that horrible video must have been a security contractor, because about half way into it, his dog starts yelping and he hushes it up. Looks like a security officer with a K9, but I may be wrong.
 
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Navigator
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 6:05 am

And there is that TIA DC-8 accident that could be interesting to study when looking at what happened to the National Air Cargo 747-400...

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19700908-1
747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
 
comorin
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 6:07 am

As traumatizing as this footage is, it would be a lot more horrific if the sounds - turbines and impact - had been captured on the video.

rfields5421 - thanks for a clear and compelling post.
 
boeingguy26
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 6:13 am

Never good to hear about these beautiful machines going down. The video is just shocking...

I became an official member of a.net just to be able to express my thoughts and prayers to the crew on-board and their grieving families.
 
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Navigator
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 6:24 am

And here is the Fine Air DC-8 accident because of cargo movement:

"On August 7, 1997, Fine Air flight 101, a Cargo DC-8-61F registration # N27UA, en route from Miami to Santo Domingo, in the Dominican Republic, suffered sudden movement of cargo materials in the aft cargo hold while on take off. The aircraft's nose rose steeply due to the sudden uneven weight distribution caused by shifting boxes of denim material that had not been securely fastened. Furthermore, the aircraft was approximately 2700 kg overloaded.

The pilots, departing out of the former Runway 27R (now 26L) attempted to recover but the aircraft stalled and crashed onto a field adjacent the Miami City Rail Yard less than a mile from the airport. The aircraft missed two factories, a commercial building, and the Budweiser Distribution Center in unincorporated Miami, Florida between the populated residential suburbs of Miami Springs and Doral, FL."
747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
 
Beechtobus
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 6:38 am

RIP to the crew and thoughts and prayers to their families.

Anyone else notice the dog yelp at 1:33? That seemed a little random.
 
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garpd
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 8:15 am

Quoting comorin (Reply 167):
As traumatizing as this footage is, it would be a lot more horrific if the sounds - turbines and impact - had been captured on the video.

They are, just turn up your volume. You can clearly hear the roar of the engines (no doubt the throttles had been firewalled) and the sickening thud of the impact.

[Edited 2013-05-01 01:16:37]
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romeobravo
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 8:41 am

Damn that's sad - the crew had no chance at that height.

At least it was over very quickly for them.

Incredible video, reminds me of that B-52 vid.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 8:59 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 156):
Pilots don't panic, don't give in to terror. They keep working to try to save the plane, and themselves.


As SlamClick once said, "If I die in the cockpit, I expect to die very busy."

Quoting uncgso (Reply 158):
how much cargo would have to shift in order to bring down a 744?

Not only how much, but how quickly and how far is the question. Even a comparatively small load like a car flying from the front all the way to the back will shift the CG dramatically. As familiar from middle school physics, the force is the mass times the distance from the CG.

If this was indeed a load shift, it could not have happened at a worse time. Low, slow, heavy and draggy.

In "Fate is the Hunter", Ernest Gann has a hair raising story about a wartime transport flight in what I believe was a DC-3. The cargo was girders of some kind. At rotation the load shifted back and both pilots had to push the control columns forward with all their strength and keep them there. No hydraulic augmentation in those days either. Thankfully, the rest of the crew managed to shift the load forward.

[Edited 2013-05-01 02:02:39]

[Edited 2013-05-01 02:11:14]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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zeke
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 9:05 am

Quoting MrBuzzcut (Reply 108):

Just out of curiosity, who investigates and issues an official report on an accident like this...a US carrier in a foreign country operating out of a US military controlled air base. NTSB? Air Force? Host country's civil aviation authority (which I don't imagine is the best in Afghanistan if they have one at all)...some combination of the three?

Contrary to some people think, Afghanistan does have a government, foreign powers are not have free reign to do what they like, and it does have its own aviation authority. This was a civil flight by a US carrier in Afghanistan.

This will be investigated by the Afghanistan Ministry of Transportation and Commercial Aviation. It is normal for the state of manufacture, state of registration, sate of issue of the TCDS, the operator, and manufacturer to participate in the investigation.

In short, this will be lead by the Afghanistan Ministry of Transportation and Commercial Aviation with the assistance of the NTSB, Boeing, and National.

As for data readouts of the of the various recorders, I have seen cases where governments in this region choose to use less obvious avenues to get the data extracted as they may think the US is already too much involved and seek some independent avenue. I would doubt they have the equipment in country, so they may turn to Israel, France, Canada, Netherlands, UK, or even Australia to do the data extraction. The data extraction just just that, reading the data from the devices and maybe generating a flight path reconstruction based up the data. The actual analysis and release of information would be carried out by the Afghanistan Ministry of Transportation and Commercial Aviation, they would get technical assistance from the NTSB, Boeing, and National.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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teme82
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 9:11 am

After I saw that video of the crash. I could not believe my eyes. It was so surreal from my point of view the plane just dropped down like a stone.

R.I.P. to the crew there was nothing they could have done to prevent this crash.
Flying high and low
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 9:20 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 156):
Pilots don't panic, don't give in to terror. They keep working to try to save the plane, and themselves. It is clear to me from the video that the crew of this plane was trying to minimize the impact. They were in panic or terror.

I think its fair to say AF443 showed us a bit of panic in the cockpit. In this instance these poor guys had no chance to regain control.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 156):
The video was likely from a US military contractor escorting the white van across the area. More than likely the driver was a former US military person who has seen death up close. It is also very likely this isn't the first airplane he saw crash at that airport.

Not that it matters but the voice clearly had an English accent.
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Flyer732
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 9:27 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 174):
Contrary to some people think, Afghanistan does have a government, foreign powers are not have free reign to do what they like, and it does have its own aviation authority. This was a civil flight by a US carrier in Afghanistan.

Only thing that may change any of that is the fact that it came down within the grounds of a major US military base.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 9:32 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 176):
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 156):
Pilots don't panic, don't give in to terror. They keep working to try to save the plane, and themselves. It is clear to me from the video that the crew of this plane was trying to minimize the impact. They were in panic or terror.

I think its fair to say AF443 showed us a bit of panic in the cockpit. In this instance these poor guys had no chance to regain control.

Depends how you define panic. The crew of AF447 was disoriented, disorganized and making very poor decisions. Probably very anxious and afraid by the end. However, very importantly, they never gave up.

This crew does not seem to have had a chance (the investigation will tell us). However I doubt they gave up. I'd bet good money they fought until the moment of impact.

[Edited 2013-05-01 02:34:05]

[Edited 2013-05-01 02:35:44]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
romeobravo
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 12:15 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 177):
wever, very importantly, they never gave up.

I believe the quote was...

"'Damn it, we're going to crash, it can't be true!"
 
rfields5421
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 12:28 pm

Quoting fdxgirl (Reply 158):
does anyone else find it extremely odd that the said camera mounted car just happened to be in the "perfect" spot to capture it all?

No - it is not extremely odd. It would be odd if no one captured some video.

re - dash board camera - how many stories have you seen about military or other security contractors being involved in incidents with local citizens. I'm sure every military contractor vehicle in Afghanistan, and a great many to all of the military vehicles in Afghanistan have dashboard cameras.

re - Location - the Google Earth image of the airport is from 2009, a bit dated - but you can easily see how the perimeter road is going to focus a dashboard camera down the runway. Remember the climb and stall occurred over the runway. The plane crashed just barely - maybe 200-250m from the end of the runway - and even closer to that perimeter road.

That north perimeter road, and the south perimeter road are the only ways to get from one side to the other side of the base without exiting the base into the civilian, unsecured, areas of the surrounding community. (Also note the GE image shows a B747 loading with a ramp to the side cargo door at the south large cargo pad.)

re - Perfect spot - this wasn't the perfect spot. This was shot from near the runway end and distorts the aircraft movements. It also doesn't capture the critical rotation, takeoff and pitch up - which would provide clues to why the crash occurred. By the time we see the aircraft in this video - the incident has already happened. The plane is in serious trouble and unrecoverable in my opinion.

The poster who first put this video up said the video proves that enemy action did not bring the plane down. It doesn't prove that. It only shows that the aircraft had not obvious external damage and was not trailing the smoke which would be normal from a missile impact on a aircraft being shot down.

This video is missing the most critical part of the flight. Yes, it is certainly intense with the last seconds of the flight.

Also note this is the sixth notable crash at this airport in the past 11 years - the second involving a non-military aircraft.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 175):
Not that it matters but the voice clearly had an English accent.

Sorry - my hearing is about shot. Too much time too close to jet engines.

Anyway - the UK also has troops and contractors at the base.

Quoting Flyer732 (Reply 176):
Only thing that may change any of that is the fact that it came down within the grounds of a major US military base.

It's a civilian flight. It comes under the jurisdiction of the local nation authorities. That was announced in the major news media even before the third post on this thread.

As Zeke says -

Quoting zeke (Reply 173):
This will be investigated by the Afghanistan Ministry of Transportation and Commercial Aviation. It is normal for the state of manufacture, state of registration, sate of issue of the TCDS, the operator, and manufacturer to participate in the investigation.

In short, this will be lead by the Afghanistan Ministry of Transportation and Commercial Aviation with the assistance of the NTSB, Boeing, and National.

There are plenty of past incidents under similar procedures.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...ef.aspx?ev_id=20100924X92215&key=1

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...ef.aspx?ev_id=20120116X72519&key=1
Not all who wander are lost.
 
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Btblue
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 12:31 pm

Dash cams are widely used around the base in Bagram. They're used to document any unauthorised activity and for security purposes - after all, there are many threats.

What's the maximum/recommended takeoff speed for Bagram? A 747? As I understand it, aircraft aim to climb fairly quickly to avoid any possible fire but the gear would have been retracted quickly.

Seeing as the gear is down on crashing - may imply the problem occurred immediately just after rotation. With the higher than usual forward speed pushing the the aircraft higher/vertical until it dropped.

I could only find this as an example of a takeoff... to give an illustration from behind the possible National 744.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1rtr2X063Q
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 12:46 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 178):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 177):
wever, very importantly, they never gave up.

I believe the quote was...

"'Damn it, we're going to crash, it can't be true!"

Saying such things does not mean giving up. More to the point, according to the transcript I have the crew of AF447 never said that.

The last words on the CVR for AF447, two seconds before impact, were from the Captain. "10 degrees pitch!" 6-7 seconds before that, the pilot flying said "Go on, pull pull pull!". Doesn't sound like surrender to me.

Quoting btblue (Reply 179):
What's the maximum/recommended takeoff speed for Bagram? A 747? As I understand it, aircraft aim to climb fairly quickly to avoid any possible fire but the gear would have been retracted quickly.

Seeing as the gear is down on crashing - may imply the problem occurred immediately just after rotation. With the higher than usual forward speed pushing the the aircraft higher/vertical until it dropped.

Bagram itself has little to do with takeoff speeds. These are determined by weight, altitude, temperature, obstacle clearance requirements and so forth. Of course if the runway is short that may give a performance limitation, which will alter the weight, which will give a lower takeoff speed. However specific airports do not have specific takeoff speeds.

Fire has nothing to do with climb speeds. In the initial climb, airliner pilots aim for a reference speed that is typically rotation speed plus a certain number of knots (and thus affected by performance parameters as listed above). If the aircraft is light, this speed translates into a high pitch angle and a rapid climb rate. If the aircraft is heavy, the opposite is true.

I agree that the gear down seems to indicate that the problem manifested before gear retraction. I have a hard time thinking of a scenario where a crew with an aircraft going into a stall this rapidly would find time for retracting the gear, then extending it again.

Higher than usual forward speed, which there is no evidence for at this point, would normally help since this means more airflow over the wings. Angle of attack determines a stall but if you go through the mechanics of how that works more speed is typically better.

[Edited 2013-05-01 05:47:50]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Btblue
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 1:04 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 182):
Bagram itself has little to do with takeoff speeds.
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 182):
Fire has nothing to do with climb speeds.

Yes, it does. Aircraft have to initiate a steep climb to avoid enemy fire/RPG's. Also a steep approach. Google it.

A steep climb would also mean a faster than usual takeoff to generate more forward force. A steeper than usual climb could easily have resulted in cargo moving and changing the COG.
 
romeobravo
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 1:20 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 182):
Saying such things does not mean giving up. More to the point, according to the transcript I have the crew of AF447 never said that.

No pilot with basic human instincts is ever going to give up trying to save their plane from crashing. But it does demonstrate that they are mentally resigned to the fact that they've probably had it.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 1:45 pm

Quoting btblue (Reply 183):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 182):
Bagram itself has little to do with takeoff speeds.
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 182):
Fire has nothing to do with climb speeds.

Yes, it does. Aircraft have to initiate a steep climb to avoid enemy fire/RPG's. Also a steep approach. Google it.

Ah sorry, you meant "fire" as in "enemy fire". I thought you meant "fire" as in cargo fire or engine fire.

Back to your point, this kind of steep climb requirement would work in a similar way to obstacle clearance requirements. So it might make rotation speed higher in order to get a better climb rate. Even so, there would be no stated recommended rotation speed in general. That would depend on the weight and temperature on any given flight, as well as the aircraft type.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 184):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 182):
Saying such things does not mean giving up. More to the point, according to the transcript I have the crew of AF447 never said that.

No pilot with basic human instincts is ever going to give up trying to save their plane from crashing. But it does demonstrate that they are mentally resigned to the fact that they've probably had it.

Ok I've been checking on this because it is not listed in the transcript I have. Some sources say that "'Damn it, we're going to crash, it can't be true!" was said three seconds before impact. However at the same time the Captain said "10 degrees pitch!" All in all I would say the transcript does not indicate mental resignation. It certainly indicates confusion, but not surrender at all. They were still fighting right until the end. That statement could just as well be read as frustration instead of surrender.

[Edited 2013-05-01 06:49:16]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 2:06 pm

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound.
Quoting KPDX (Reply 132):
No doubt this guy was in complete shock. Notice how only after he pulls over and has time to comprehend it does he curse.

Many, many people react like this - a complete "shutdown". They won't say anything. They just carry on doing what they were doing. For minutes, hours or even days.

Family members carry on with their daily tasks - like shopping, cooking food, going to work - before realizing that the wife or the husband has died. While other people immediately realize what has happened, and fall into a deep grief. Then they need time to "carry on" with the daily duties.

Both types of mourning are normal and well-known.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
bueb0g
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 2:15 pm

Quoting btblue (Reply 179):
What's the maximum/recommended takeoff speed for Bagram? A 747? As I understand it, aircraft aim to climb fairly quickly to avoid any possible fire but the gear would have been retracted quickly.

Depends entirely on the mass...

Quoting btblue (Reply 183):
Yes, it does. Aircraft have to initiate a steep climb to avoid enemy fire/RPG's. Also a steep approach. Google it.

Actually most civilian flights don't. From people who work at National on other forums it seems as if that isn't a procedure at their airline. To be honest, there's not that much you can do than use full power (most if not all takeoffs will use TOGA though) and hold V2 + 10.

Quoting btblue (Reply 183):
A steep climb would also mean a faster than usual takeoff to generate more forward force. A steeper than usual climb could easily have resulted in cargo moving and changing the COG.

No, you lift off at Vr... You don't delay for a better climb with more speed or you risk busting flap limits.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 182):
Saying such things does not mean giving up. More to the point, according to the transcript I have the crew of AF447 never said that.

I think they did, but it might not be in the report, which omits non-pertinent messages on the CVR transcript.

Many crews have, just before the end, an "oh shit" moment where they realise they're probably done for - that doesn't suggest that they're giving up, more that they are simply realising that a recovery is unlikely.

An investigator once said "the most common last words you hear on the CVR are "oh, shit" or something to that effect - there's seldom panic or fright, only a sense of resignation - "we did everything we could, there's nothing more to do and this is it."
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 2:23 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 187):
No, you lift off at Vr... You don't delay for a better climb with more speed or you risk busting flap limits.

On many airliners, you can use a lower flap setting at some weights. This would give a higher Vr in order to achieve better climb speed.

For example if you have an obstacle clearance requirement this is useful. More runway is used but once off the ground the climb is faster.

Ultimately, mass is key as you say.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
LTC8K6
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 2:29 pm

An MRAP probably weighs in the neighborhood of 10 tons, depending on which one you're talking about. Some weigh a lot more.
 
MD80Nut
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 2:46 pm

Words fail me. What a horrible thing to see. RIP to the crew and sympathy for the families of those killed.

Ralph
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
Norcal773
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 2:54 pm

Quoting ogre727 (Reply 160):
Why people love conspiracies so much is beyond me. The "just sayin'" bit makes it sound even dumber in my brain, but thats just me.

Very well-said! Can't stand conspiracy theorists who never believe anything!
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
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United_fan
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 2:59 pm

Quoting KPDX (Reply 79):
That video made me sick... I just cannot believe that. How horrifying that must have been for the people on that plane.

I agree,very scary to watch. One can only imagine the sound.
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
DashTrash
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 155):
I wish people would stop saying things like this. CVR transcripts and recordings show that the cockpit crews almost never drop into panic or sheer terror mode. They keep fighting to control the aircraft to the very end.

CVRs don't pick up thought. Fear happens.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 155):
Pilots don't panic, don't give in to terror. They keep working to try to save the plane, and themselves. It is clear to me from the video that the crew of this plane was trying to minimize the impact. They were in panic or terror.

Pilots fly the airplane until there's nothing left to fly.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 186):
Quoting btblue (Reply 183):Yes, it does. Aircraft have to initiate a steep climb to avoid enemy fire/RPG's. Also a steep approach. Google it.Actually most civilian flights don't. From people who work at National on other forums it seems as if that isn't a procedure at their airline. To be honest, there's not that much you can do than use full power (most if not all takeoffs will use TOGA though) and hold V2 + 10.

To my knowledge there is no such thing as a Boeing approved tactical departure. The only difference is taking off out of Bagram as opposed to JFK would be full power and hold V2+10 longer than standard as the previous poster listed.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 3:10 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 177):
This crew does not seem to have had a chance (the investigation will tell us). However I doubt they gave up. I'd bet good money they fought until the moment of impact.

It appeared that way. Notice that he rolled wings level just before hitting the ground. One can speculate he was still trying hard to regain control. Unfortunately, they ran out of sky.

The crew of PSA 182 did the same thing on the way down. Had up elevator and rudder input on that last photo before hitting the ground.
 
PHX787
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 3:19 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 192):
Pilots fly the airplane until there's nothing left to fly.

This is definitely true. I had an acquaintance who survived a plane crash tell me that he was trying to fix his stall until the moment it slapped into the water...He was lucky to have survived with just a broken leg.
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trnswrld
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 3:32 pm

This is a serious question that I am truly looking to get more info on. Obviously we dont know the official cause of this accident, but from what we see its probably pretty safe to bet it was a cargo shift. When a cargo shift happens what usually is the cause of it? Is it basically human error in the loading process? or does something break thats supporting the load, or both? If load shift is typically human error is there someone in Bagram thats currently shitting their pants?
 
Gatorman96
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 3:34 pm

If an MRAP did break loose, the problem needs to be quickly identified since these won't be the last MRAPs to be shipped out via 747.
 
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frigatebird
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 185):
Many, many people react like this - a complete "shutdown". They won't say anything. They just carry on doing what they were doing. For minutes, hours or even days.

Not sure it belongs in this very thread, it's just a personal thing. But my first emotion while watching the video was... totally nothing. Only when I come to here:

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 116):
Never saw such video in my life. Makes think to nightmares you do when you see a plane falling in front of you.RIP to all crew and families

suddenly the images came back to me again, and I felt close to tears. Felt so sad. Didn't understand why it took some minutes, don't know either if it's comparable to watching it live. I hope I never have to witness something like this in my life. My condolences to family and friends to the people that perished.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 162):
Quoting fdxgirl (Reply 159):does anyone else find it extremely odd that the said camera mounted car just happened to be in the "perfect" spot to capture it all? just sayin.....Not surprising really. The use of dashcams is a widespread practice nowadays, specially in some countries. If you check YouTube you will see literally hundreds ( maybe thousands ) of car crashes, trucks flipping over and all kind of "wild stuff" filmed with dashcams

   Don't forget the Redwings TU-204 crash last year, also a dashcam in the "perfect" spot.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
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135mech
Posts: 411
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 4:12 pm

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 121):
1994 B-52 crash at Fairchild AFB.



That one was caught also, because it was practicing for that weekend's airshow and a few people (way before cell phones etc) had their video cameras out catching the performances.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound.

TIS



I am not at all surprised, if you notice, he turned the vehicle around to face the outside perimeter to see if there were any insurgents or hostiles that could have launched something. He was most likely a Security Forces member and was on patrol - hence the dash-cam! [Also, remember they are in a different timezone/day than we are]. When you are in a situation like that, speechless happens, AND he immediately went into "protect and watch" mode without thinking! They are at Bagram and they get "events" all of the time, so this person did exactly as he'd been trained.

They are trained to keep calm in ANY matter and he did amazingly well!

When I watched the B-52 crash, there were NO words... just amazement and uber-intense hearing/sight/adrenaline.

I don't think they ever had "time" to think about raising the gear to begin with... (as soon as they took off they knew they were in trouble and leaving the gear down can be a safety precaution for them) it is fully down and locked, that video lenght is not long enough to show a full up and down sequence for the 747's gear rotations.

Regards,
135Mech
135Mech
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 197):
Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 116):
Never saw such video in my life. Makes think to nightmares you do when you see a plane falling in front of you.RIP to all crew and families

suddenly the images came back to me again, and I felt close to tears. Felt so sad. Didn't understand why it took some minutes, don't know either if it's comparable to watching it live. I hope I never have to witness something like this in my life. My condolences to family and friends to the people that perished.

Quite honestly, I found myself wishing I hadn't watched it yesterday. It was passed around at work and of course all of us watched it. I could be perfectly happy going on with life, not having watched that video.
 
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135mech
Posts: 411
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 4:41 pm

Quoting ogre727 (Reply 160):
Quoting fdxgirl (Reply 159):


Why people love conspiracies so much is beyond me. The "just sayin'" bit makes it sound even dumber in my brain, but thats just me.

AGREED!

If fdxgirl would have noticed all of the posts above, she would have seen a "perimeter road" going around the end of the runway as they do at a LOT of military bases and other runways.

This is a military base and perimeters are constantly being "maintained", so there would have been more than one vehicle that would have been there or nearby to catch this.

Regards,
135Mech
135Mech
 
spacecadet
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 184):
Some sources say that "'Damn it, we're going to crash, it can't be true!" was said three seconds before impact. However at the same time the Captain said "10 degrees pitch!" All in all I would say the transcript does not indicate mental resignation.

I agree - statements like that have to be taken in context, because there are two things that happen in a highly stressful situation:

1) Language becomes more efficient, and humans will instinctively "edit out" any words our brains deem unnecessary

2) Language becomes focused on obtaining a desired result, regardless of the words actually being said.

This is why it can be so hard to interpret the meaning behind certain comments on CVR tapes after the fact. Sometimes things don't even seem to make logical sense when listened to outside of that situation - the speaker may have "edited out" too much for a comment to mean something to listeners later. (A comment may not have even made sense to the person being spoken to at the time, but the speaker did have some reason for saying it; some result he or she was trying to obtain.)

In this case, I would take "damn it, we're going to crash" as shorthand for "damn it, we're going to crash if none of us figures this out right now" - in other words, it's kind of a last-ditch cry for help from that pilot's colleagues. I actually think it's the opposite of giving up, it's almost more like cracking the whip.

We've been talking about JL123 in another thread also, and there was a comment by one of the pilots on that CVR that's been translated as either "It's hopeless" or "This is the end", but there too, at the same time they were still giving full engine power and pulling back on their dead sticks (and they almost made it over that ridge). So you can't look at comments like that out of context and say it means they gave up.

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 195):
When a cargo shift happens what usually is the cause of it? Is it basically human error in the loading process? or does something break thats supporting the load, or both?

I don't think I've read about a case of a load shift-related accident where it was not either human error or an error in the design of the loading procedure. It almost has to be one of those two things. If something broke and that caused this accident, and everything else was otherwise kosher, then it's a problem with the loading procedure - something was not strong enough to hold the load in place, or there wasn't enough redundancy to hold the load in place with whatever broke missing.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 5:08 pm

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 124):
Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 91):
There's been several caught on film...
UA232 at Sioux City springs to mind, FedEx at NRT as well... and the Tu-144 crash at the Paris airshow...

As well as the Red Wings Tu-204 at VKO, the Air France A320 at MLH, the Air France Concorde on fire shortly before the crash and probably some more...

And the C-17 at Elmendorf AFB, Alaska July 28, 2010, practicing for an airshow. Fortunately the video stops about 2 seconds before impact. Stall warning was sounding for about the last 12 seconds of flight. $185 million of U.S. taxpayer money up in flames (and the lives of the 4 crew).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS2u9LWoQ_o

Official accident report:
http://www.pacaf.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-101214-048.pdf
 
MD80Nut
Posts: 975
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 5:12 pm

This crash reminds me of the Fine Air DC-8-61F that crashed in Miami back in '97. My brother worked in the area around MIA back then and saw the crash. What he described sounds like what we saw in this crash video. The cargo shifted on take-off and the pilots lost control of the aircraft.
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram

Wed May 01, 2013 5:26 pm

Reading accident reports is what calms me down

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