Quoting crj900lr (Reply 99):

I guess you are not a GA at a international station then. It happens often.

LAXLocal

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 99): Only in extreme situations will boarding continue under the 10 min mark.

Quoting LAXLocal (Reply 100): It happens often.

Agreed, it is absolutely not uncommon to see passengers (esp connecting pax) board flights well under the 10 min mark. The 10 min gate close is a goal, not an ironclad dictat.

Quoting cmf (Reply 92): No, they failed to deliver what they sold

I'm sorry, but they delivered everything that they were contractually required to.

These 7 passengers almost certainly could not have made it to the flight. Maybe Piedmont could have closed the door at 5:34 and pushed back at 5:40, but they most likely would still not have been on the aircraft.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 97): Adding salt to the wound is the fact the connection left early (regardless of whether the pax would have made it or not)

But would closing the door at 5:34 have made any difference? On the balance of probabilities almost certainly not. Let's credit the GA to have a brain, and actually checked the status of the inbound passengers, and made an informed decision that they weren't going to make regardless of whether the door closed at T-10 or T.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 95): Screw the numbers. They would reap ten fold for a little courtesy from time to time. This is why airline travel sucks

I'm about to use a bunch of hypotheticals, which probably don't apply in this case, but you'll pick up my drift.

They wait for the customers, who arrive at 5:39 (25 minutes from B to F is still cutting it fine). The aircraft pushes back at 5:45, 11 behind schedule. It sits for a while in a line for departure, and arrives in AVP 20 behind schedule. It's only a short flight, you're not going to make up much time. It leaves AVP 20 behind schedule, goes into a holding pattern at PHL, on stand 30 behind schedule. These passengers are connecting to the last bank of flights for the night. They hold all those flights, so they're now 30+ behind. They arrive at the outstation for RON 45 behind schedule. That's taken the crew below their minimum rest requirements, so you have to delay flights the next morning. They're late into the hub, so you hold the flights for the connections.... and so on and so on

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 94): If this same scenario happened to me, or anybody else in this thread, no one would care! Shit happens, and if you fly enough, it will happen to you and most likely already has, many times. And we all continue to fly, in most cases the same airline that "screwed us over." This is not a big deal.

That's what I was thinking. Today alone the same thing has probably happened with DL at MSP, UA at SFO and AA at ORD.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 97): I once had a situation where I was connecting with my family from a much delayed inbound CO flight on a separate ticket, to the SQ EWR-SIN non-stop. I literally had 10 minutes to go when I reached the check-in counter. The SQ staff had the BPs ready (I had called them from the CO flight), grabbed our bags. and two staff grabbed my two kids (2 and 4) and *ran with them* with us following to security, and got us on the aircraft with maybe a minute to spare. The aircraft door literally slammed shut behind us. They could have easily followed SOP, but they went above and beyond. THAT is what creates loyal customers!

That is nice but I highly doubt SQ would have gone through all that trouble if there was another flight they could have put you on 3 hours later. When a flight only operates 1x daily or less there is alot more incentive to hold flights for connecting pax...

[/quote]

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 94): For those of you who are actually in the airline industry, please correct me if I am wrong, but passengers miss connections everyday for various reasons. I

BINGO, It happens many times at day, probably it happened to other people who were on that LAX flight. Yes, it sucks. But delays are a fact of travel. The only reason were are talking about this is that it happened to a celeb with Twitter feed and a DYKWIA attitude (a celeb who does not merit an Learjet charter   ). The reasons for what happened have been cover several times and very well by RyanairGuru in reply 84.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 97): Adding salt to the wound is the fact the connection left early (regardless of whether the pax would have made it or not). The pax is upset. Empathize, airline people, they pay YOUR salary.

sankaps, showing empathy for customer is something that most agents certainly like to do. Empathy is fine; risking a delay is not. It is no fun to tell customers they have missed a flight, but a lot easier than trying to explain a delay to a manager.

People need to realize that the departure time written on their boarding pass is not the time the doors close. It is normally the push back time from the gate. But I guess when people want to try and make a point on Twitter, they don't need to know the facts...  

Quoting cmf (Reply 75): Speaking generally, that is horse hockey. You do not provide good customer service by scheduling so tight that you incur delays with high frequency and don't have buffers to handle it. You certainly do not run lean that way.

Their flight departed late (out of LAX(...for all we know because of LATE CONNECTING or LOCAL PASSENGERS LOL. Oh the irony. Don't you see the domino effect already?

Quoting cmf (Reply 75): It never stops to amaze me how people think that well established business practices do not apply to airlines.

Well established business practices are being used. If anything ,the fact that accountability is being drilled more than ever these days and sticking to what works shows that on-time performance, baggage numbers and DOT complaints are AT ITS BEST SINCE REPORTING STARTED. And I assure you that there are plenty of things for passengers to complain about.

Quoting cmf (Reply 78): At the very minimum they failed to communicate properly with their customers.

How so specifically. I don't follow.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 81): 1. Anyone who can't wait 10 minutes for some folks who are late because their previous flight was late is a jerk. 10 minutes is not that big a deal and can be made up in the air often. If you book your next connection so tight that 10 minutes breaks you, then that's your own dumb fault. If the late people are just late overall not because of a previous flight delay, then leave them behind.

Are you serious? They may or may not have made it even if they waited until departure time. Now they flight departs late for absolutely no reason. Just an FYI, most airlines have an auto-rebook engine. If you're late coming in and you have a connection, and there are no official holds set in place by OPS, then all pax that fall under the misconnect category are rebooked. Many times before they even get off the plane.

I'm not saying this is what happened but if I see pax land on another side of the airport and they only have 18 minutes to get off the plane and to the new gate AT departure time then it stands to reason that these passengers are misconnects. Couple the fact that there were additional flights to AVP following this one.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 81): 3. US Airways, look at you passenger manifest. If it reads Rainn Wilson, Jenna Fischer, etc. and the flight is going to Scranton, you should probably hold the flight. Idiots bought themselves a butt load of bad press which could have been easily avoided.

LOL nobody does that. PERHAPS, if their studio took the effort to arrange VIP/concierge services with US then someone would have been taking a harder look.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 89): Sold them a connecting flight, but a delay to their own incoming flight caused them to miss their connection. So it is not like they did everything correct, even if you believe that the Scranton flight pushing 4 minutes early is not an issue.

Happens every single day on almost every flight with every airline. Not making excuses. It is what it is. Are you suppose to hold every single departure for miss connections?

Quoting sankaps (Reply 89): Perhaps it is this dogmatism that needs to change. Perhaps 10 min gate close should be a guideline, especially for Dash flights where it evidently can take as little as 6 minutes from gate close to push back?

It is a guideline. Let's be clear. Gate holds happen every day as well, too and not just for the last flight of the night. It's evaluated on a case by case basis. In this case, there was no hold. Again, you can't wait forever and you can't hold every flight.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 89): Again, perhaps this suggests some common sense needs to be used, and the 10 min rule not be applied dogmatically and blindly.

Are you missing something? Because of this one example, it means US (or any other domestic US airline for that matter) never holds flights for passengers? It happens every single day. Trust me.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 95): Screw the numbers.

That makes a lot of sense.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 95): They would reap ten fold for a little courtesy from time to time.

Courtesy is extended from time to time. Just not this time. Perhaps courtesy was extended on their LAX-PHL flight...thus making them late...thus making them miss their connection...hen we hold the PHL-AVP flight; causing that one to get in late...which has to quick-turn back to PHL...with connecting passengers...coming in late.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 103): That is nice but I highly doubt SQ would have gone through all that trouble if there was another flight they could have put you on 3 hours later.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 103): When a flight only operates 1x daily or less there is alot more incentive to hold flights for connecting pax...

Sure, but would US or UA or other legacy US carriers have gone through this trouble? They would more than likely just have just said "tough luck, your incoming flight was on a separate ticket, not our problem you missed this flight, now you have to buy a new ticket if you want to get to your destination since you were a no-show on the flight you were booked on".

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106): Happens every single day on almost every flight with every airline. Not making excuses. It is what it is. Are you suppose to hold every single departure for miss connections?

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106): Are you missing something? Because of this one example, it means US (or any other domestic US airline for that matter) never holds flights for passengers? It happens every single day. Trust me.

I am not missing anything. I am making the same point you are that the 10 minute rule is not cast in stone, in response to all those who are saying "10 min gate close is mandatory, tough luck if you don't like it or are too dumb to understand it".

Quoting LV (Reply 74):

There was a thread on this incident at the time that flag stops are done in unusual circumstances like this when enough people are stranded at the end of the day. There was also an episode of Airline not long after this incident where they had some bumped passengers accommodated by making a flag stop too. WN policy in the episode was stated as requiring a minimum of 20 to add a flag stop. They ended up getting 17 or 18 and mgmt approved it. I recall a similar number involved in the Bush twins incident but their SS escort probably helped meet the head count required by US mgmt. I'm sure some people were not happy being delayed by US for that flag stop. The Airline episode featured numerous passengers upset they'd be delayed reaching their destination due a flag stop in the middle. Many saying WN should have done the flag stop after their flight. The plane needed to start the next day from their destination though.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 102): I'm sorry, but they delivered everything that they were contractually required to.

They failed to deliver the itinerary they sold. That means they failed to deliver. That they use small print to make make sure that is considered close enough for there not to be any penalties doesn't change that t hey failed to deliver what was sold.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 102): These 7 passengers almost certainly could not have made it to the flight. Maybe Piedmont could have closed the door at 5:34 and pushed back at 5:40, but they most likely would still not have been on the aircraft.

Why I have stated the the most direct failure is communication.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 102): They're late into the hub, so you hold the flights for the connections.... and so on and so on

Based on the on-time statistics that is happening 39% of the time. Seems US has a fundamental problem.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 102): That's what I was thinking. Today alone the same thing has probably happened with DL at MSP, UA at SFO and AA at ORD.

So that makes is all right then...

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106): Their flight departed late (out of LAX(...for all we know because of LATE CONNECTING or LOCAL PASSENGERS LOL. Oh the irony. Don't you see the domino effect already?

I see a systematic failure that airlines cover with fine print and reliance on everyone else being as bad. I also see a lot of people justifying the failure instead of addressing it. Like making up reasons where passengers are blamed instead of the airlines applying rules differently on two flights on the same itinerary.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106): Well established business practices are being used.

39% of flights arriving more than 15 minutes late. 16% on system level. can't think of any other industry where such poor performance is accepted.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106): If anything ,the fact that accountability is being drilled more than ever these days and sticking to what works

About bloody time. Hopefully this will mean they will start using the kind of yardsticks used in other industries instead of the manipulated statistics and frequent use of fine print to pretend they delivered when they didn't.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106): AT ITS BEST SINCE REPORTING STARTED

That sounds great but it really isn't important. Certainly doesn't warrant the use of capitals. What is important is the actual numbers. Not if people report or not.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106): And I assure you that there are plenty of things for passengers to complain about.

I know, you know, everyone knows. It has been there for decades. Isn't that sad?

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106): How so specifically. I don't follow.

Isn't that telling. A person stating he is on the inside of the airlines and don't understand the communication problem. Simply put. With proper communication customers will accept just about any mistake you make. You certainly will not have them complain about them missing a flight because you sent it out early. Instead you will have them state they missed their connection because of late arrival and will soon continue to destination.
It is not uncommon that a customer experience a failure of some kind become the most vocal ambassadors because of how you deal with them in that situation. Customers for whom everything goes right tend to just expect it.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106): Happens every single day on almost every flight with every airline. Not making excuses. It is what it is

Sorry, but making excuses is what you do when you defend a system that generate this kind of problems with very high frequency and let it go with - it is what it is.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 107): I am not missing anything. I am making the same point you are that the 10 minute rule is not cast in stone, in response to all those who are saying "10 min gate close is mandatory, tough luck if you don't like it or are too dumb to understand it".

     Spot on. The randomness in how things are applied is a major part of the problem.

Quoting cmf (Reply 109): Spot on. The randomness in how things are applied is a major part of the problem.

Do you actually speak with every gate agent that decides whether or not to hold a plane for incoming passengers? I guarantee you this was not random. I would bet if this was the last flight out to Scranton or the next two were booked solid, they would've held this plane for The Office crew. The G/A's knew they could get them on the next flight.

The amount of things that have to go right for aircraft to leave and arrive on time is astonishing when you think about. So in the event of a delay or whatever else sets a passenger off, it's better to just let it go and get on the next flight and arrive a little late.

The incorrect way to handle it? Tweet or twit or whatever it's called that you are going to sh!t on the cockpit window and fondle Doug Parker. That will garner all kinds of sympathy...

Quoting cmf (Reply 109): They failed to deliver the itinerary they sold

No, they delivered the itinerary as contracted: they were ready, willing, and able to transport the customer from LAX to AVP.

US had every intention of carrying the customer on the exact flights booked, and when that wasn't possible they offered the next best alternative. If the customer determines that they no longer want such carriage that is not a breach of contract by US.

If you read the contract of carriage, you will see that US (nor, indeed, UA, AA, DL, BA, EK, SQ, CX etc etc) does not guarantee to carry you on the flight you booked if, for operational reasons etc. that is impossible to do. Whether or not the passenger wanted to be on that flight is not actually relevant to any discussion of whether US 'failed to deliver'

Quoting cmf (Reply 109): So that makes is all right then

That wasn't my point. I was getting at this happens every single day, and we don't have a thread with 110 posts on it on ANet.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 111): No, they delivered the itinerary as contracted: they were ready, willing, and able to transport the customer from LAX to AVP.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 111): If you read the contract of carriage

Again, no wonder sometimes passengers are driven to lawyers, since otherwise everything would be excused and justified by pointing to the fine print.

And do you know what a self respecting lawyer would say to Rainn in this situation? Take a hike, buddy...

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 111): If you read the contract of carriage, you will see that US (nor, indeed, UA, AA, DL, BA, EK, SQ, CX etc etc) does not guarantee to carry you on the flight you booked if, for operational reasons etc. that is impossible to do. Whether or not the passenger wanted to be on that flight is not actually relevant to any discussion of whether US 'failed to deliver' Quoting cmf (Reply 109): So that makes is all right then That wasn't my point. I was getting at this happens every single day, and we don't have a thread with 110 posts on it on ANet.

At large hubs like PHL/ORD/EWR/CLT/ALT/DFW etc hundreds or even thousands(on bad days) of passengers miss their connections on a daily basis. It is a mathematical certainty of the hub & spoke system. Holding planes for connecting customers is usually a bad idea in most cases as it usually delays more people then it helps...

Also, it does seem that some of us are forgetting what a departure time actually is here - a plane is supposed pushing back from the gate at that time and therefore the boarding door must be closed several minutes before departure (in some cases, up to 15 minutes before). Very frustrating to make it to your gate at departure and see the plane still sitting there, but it happens :|

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 110): I guarantee you this was not random.

So you speak with every gate agent...

It is random because the affected passengers don't know what is happening. It comes back to communication, again.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 110): it's better to just let it go and get on the next flight and arrive a little late.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 111): US had every intention of carrying the customer on the exact flights booked

And that is the difference between delivering what was sold and what is in the fine print. The expectations with the customer was clear and it wasn't delivered.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 111): Whether or not the passenger wanted to be on that flight is not actually relevant to any discussion of whether US 'failed to deliver'

Of course it is relevant. Whenever you fail to deliver what the customer is expecting it is a failure. If the reason is that you couldn't deliver what you said or that you set expectations wrong doesn't matter.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 111): That wasn't my point. I was getting at this happens every single day, and we don't have a thread with 110 posts on it on ANet.

You're using that it is happening multiple times a day as justification. It isn't justification. Every single time is a failure. The acceptance you display is scary and would be reason for termination in many places.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 112): Again, no wonder sometimes passengers are driven to lawyers, since otherwise everything would be excused and justified by pointing to the fine print.

Lawyers are rarely useful since other lawyers have written the contracts to be lopsided to the advantage of the airlines.

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 114): Also, it does seem that some of us are forgetting what a departure time actually is here - a plane is supposed pushing back from the gate at that time and therefore the boarding door must be closed several minutes before departure

Another of the crazy industry things. Write the time you need to be at the gate. Don't write when you want to push the plane and then make customers figure out if that means you have to be there 10, 20 or whatever time the airline happens to use for that kind of flight.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):

Oooh memories of Terminal F.....bad memories.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 15):

I am not perfect, but I have little respect for people who either twist the story or fight with facts that are incorrect. US doesn't operate 20 seats but I guess a 37-seater with 7 missing isn't as dramatic as a 20 seater missing 7 people.

Quoting cmf (Reply 115): So you speak with every gate agent... It is random because the affected passengers don't know what is happening. It comes back to communication, again.

How does that make it random? We are talking about a multi-billion dollar corporation, where profit margins are slim and in a lot of cases, none. Every move is calculated and scrutinized. Airlines and any other business work very hard to remove random events...

I definitely respect your opinion, and ours certainly differ  , but i think we can both agree that this event wasn't the first and won't be the last. One thing I can guarantee, if Rainn spoke to the gate agents in the same fashion he took to Twitter, I hope US tells him to please find another airline. What a terrible way to handle a situation and look like a massive Dbag at the same time..

I know that some will call me an apologist for the big, evil, airline companies. But the sad reality is that air travel is not rainbows and unicorns. I daresay that no venture as mind numbingly complex as a major airline can ever run as well as people might like. But the system does work pretty well most of the time. It is unfortunate that Mr Wilson and the other cast members were late for their party, but these things do happen. (Armchair experts notwithstanding)

Let's all take a deep breath and listen to Louis CK on air travel again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk

Go to the 4:00 mark for the air travel bit (but, before that, the stuff about mobile phone is good, too).

Quoting sankaps (Reply 107): Sure, but would US or UA or other legacy US carriers have gone through this trouble? They would more than likely just have just said "tough luck, your incoming flight was on a separate ticket, not our problem you missed this flight, now you have to buy a new ticket if you want to get to your destination since you were a no-show on the flight you were booked on".

Why wouldn't they? I've seen an agent at RDU escort a family of 4 through security to get to their gate to catch their flight to Atlanta that was scheduled to depart in 20 minutes with the TSA line being a mile long. Everyone isn't evil and again it is applied on a case-by-case basis. You can't do that for every single person that shows up to the airport late, can you?

Quoting cmf (Reply 109): hat sounds great but it really isn't important. Certainly doesn't warrant the use of capitals. What is important is the actual numbers. Not if people report or not.

Why is it not important??

Quoting cmf (Reply 109): sn't that telling. A person stating he is on the inside of the airlines and don't understand the communication problem. Simply put. With proper communication customers will accept just about any mistake you make. You certainly will not have them complain about them missing a flight because you sent it out early. Instead you will have them state they missed their connection because of late arrival and will soon continue to destination. It is not uncommon that a customer experience a failure of some kind become the most vocal ambassadors because of how you deal with them in that situation. Customers for whom everything goes right tend to just expect it.

Seems to me like you know how the conversation went. She could have been as genuine as she could have been...even after realizing who he was. Maybe he's just an ass. Ever thought of that? You above statement about "using proper communication" customers will accept about any mistake makes me thing you do not work in a customer facing job. And if you do, please tell me where you work because i'd love to have your customers. When folks are angery they sometimes can't even HEAR what you're saying. All they know is that their flight is gone. I still can't believe what you said.

Quoting cmf (Reply 109): Sorry, but making excuses is what you do when you defend a system that generate this kind of problems with very high frequency and let it go with - it is what it is.

Okay. So airplanes don't break down. It never rains. It never snows. There's never ATC delays. There's never long take-off lines. Catering is on and off the a/c when they should 100% of the time. An a/c is NEVER overfueled. An a/c is NEVER underfueled. There's NEVER a disruptive pax that needs to be removed. Crews are NEVER late. So that I understand what you're saying. Where you work, everythin goes right 100% of the time, right? When a flight departs late, it is always the airline's fault, right. It can never be an outside factor completely out of their control, right.

Take it one step further. Earlier, you tried to say that because of the way schedules are built and a/c are routed, there's no room for hick-ups such as these thuse people miss their flights. Well, i'm sure you'd much prefer a/c running 3 legs a day vs 6. That way, you're frequencies system-wide will drop significantly. Let's also raise fairs because there will be much less capacity (seats) out in the market. Maybe then, we'll see better operations. Oh, i'm sorry, all of the above that I stated will happen anyway.

And for sankaps. Good happens within airlines every single day you just never hear about it unless it makes the media (of course).

Yesterday, DL 974 (RSW-MSP) was delayed almost 10 hours due to an a/c being layed down due to MTC in RSW. A fully laden 757 with 181 people. By what you think, Delta would have just said too bad we'll get you to MSP as best we can with the remaining flight to MSP and whatever's available through ATL and DTW. Can't make it out tonight? We'll try tomorrow. No, they pulled an a/c out the hanger, flew it down empty to RSW and got the remaining folks that were not accommodated on the other flights to MSP. Doesn't stop there. They boarded 122 meals (total pax count after some were rebooked) on the ferry flight so that these people can enjoy a first class meal on their way to MSP. The pundits will claim that they needed to get an a/c to MSP for following flights so that's the only reason. No...the one that went mech was a 757. They sent down an MD90. But good never happens and they're always out to screw their passengers.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 116): I am not perfect, but I have little respect for people who either twist the story or fight with facts that are incorrect. US doesn't operate 20 seats but I guess a 37-seater with 7 missing isn't as dramatic as a 20 seater missing 7 people.

You're right, it isn't. It is only as dramatic as 75 pax being left behind on a 777 or 747 with 400 seats.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119): Why wouldn't they? I've seen an agent at RDU escort a family of 4 through security to get to their gate to catch their flight to Atlanta that was scheduled to depart in 20 minutes with the TSA line being a mile long

Would love to see many more examples of this instead of "sorry, 20 minutes out the gate closes, tough luck!".

Had weather issues while traveling TLH - TPA - RDU. US Air was very accommodating. Just prior to approach, our attendant alerted the ops that we were delayed getting into TPA on US Air Express, they were able to hold the USAir plane for 5 minutes and the other passengers never knew a thing. Even arrived on time at RDU.

Maybe it was Captain's discretion and he must have known he could make up 5 minutes.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 120): You're right, it isn't. It is only as dramatic as 75 pax being left behind on a 777 or 747 with 400 seats.

Right, just like 500 people not making a plane with 2700 seats is equally as dramatic. Please. 75 people is a lot worse than 7, regardless of whatever ratio that works out to be.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119): Okay. So airplanes don't break down. It never rains. It never snows. There's never ATC delays. There's never long take-off lines. Catering is on and off the a/c when they should 100% of the time. An a/c is NEVER overfueled. An a/c is NEVER underfueled. There's NEVER a disruptive pax that needs to be removed. Crews are NEVER late. So that I understand what you're saying. Where you work, everythin goes right 100% of the time, right? When a flight departs late, it is always the airline's fault, right. It can never be an outside factor completely out of their control, right. Take it one step further. Earlier, you tried to say that because of the way schedules are built and a/c are routed, there's no room for hick-ups such as these thuse people miss their flights. Well, i'm sure you'd much prefer a/c running 3 legs a day vs 6. That way, you're frequencies system-wide will drop significantly. Let's also raise fairs because there will be much less capacity (seats) out in the market. Maybe then, we'll see better operations. Oh, i'm sorry, all of the above that I stated will happen anyway.

  

This isn't some sort of manufacturing process that can be controlled and manipulated to very specific degrees. Sure, those same principles are applied like they are everywhere else (because after all, it is just a complex system), but the amount of variables that go into running an airline on a daily basis is staggering, which is why certain levels of performance are tolerated where in other industries they wouldn't be.

Nobody from The Office has any room to criticize anyone for not bringing a journey to a satisfying end.

Having watched The Office for 9 seasons now and being quite fanatic about the various pop culture phenomena I follow, if I had been working PHL that day and had seen the name "Rainn Wilson" on the passenger list I would have definitely known something was up and would probably have called everyone into the Conference Room to discuss it (or I would have at least convened the Party Planning Committee to concoct a sufficiently elaborate celebration). However, I am not normal. A normal person who casually watches TV (if at all) would probably not see anything particularly special about that name other than the Rainn thing. If he had booked as Dwight Schrute maybe, but otherwise no.

At any rate there's got to be a "That's what she said" joke in here somewhere but I'm not even going to try...

Quoting wn676 (Reply 122): Right, just like 500 people not making a plane with 2700 seats is equally as dramatic. Please. 75 people is a lot worse than 7, regardless of whatever ratio that works out to be.

Quite to the contrary, the ratio is exactly what matters! How much of the pax carrying mission that the aircraft is designated for, it is being able to fulfill. Leaving behind 25% of your pax doesn't seem to be a bright idea.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 117): How does that make it random?

When customers have no idea what the outcome will be then it is random to the people paying the bills.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 117): ? We are talking about a multi-billion dollar corporation, where profit margins are slim and in a lot of cases, none. Every move is calculated and scrutinized.

That certainly isn't reality.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 117): but i think we can both agree that this event wasn't the first and won't be the last.

Which is why airlines should figure out how to communicate properly. The affected passengers should have been informed already before they landed in PHL.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 117): One thing I can guarantee, if Rainn spoke to the gate agents in the same fashion he took to Twitter, I hope US tells him to please find another airline. What a terrible way to handle a situation and look like a massive Dbag at the same time..

Ever considered that the twit may be the result of how the gate agent responded?

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 118): But the system does work pretty well most of the time

39% of flights delayed averaging more than 30 minutes delay. Just about every airline having been in bk, often multiple times. Not being able to communicate with customers and constantly referring to fine print and policies when things go wrong. Doing so poorly that politicians feel forced to vote for poor passenger protection laws just to be able to say they are doing something. We have different definitions of work pretty well.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119): Why is it not important??

As I mentioned above. The number of people filing reports isn't a good measurement of how you're doing as you may have people who report the smallest thing and you may have people who will not report because they see no change. You need to look at the actual data to be able to draw any conclusions.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119): Seems to me like you know how the conversation went.

I know about customer service. I have seen how things change when a company starts being transparent. When customers starts to trust what you say instead of thinking you lie even when you confirm what day of the week it is.

When a customer think they missed their flight because you took off 10 minutes early there is a problem.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119): customers will accept about any mistake makes me thing you do not work in a customer facing job

You're wrong.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119): And if you do, please tell me where you work because i'd love to have your customers

Started in the hotel and restaurant business. The kind of place where customers have better alternatives if things go wrong so you better be on top of the game. Then various computer related businesses including nationwide support for several brands. From there I worked for a company providing SW to help handles this and most other business processes. Now I'm mostly consulting.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119): I still can't believe what you said.

That is very representative of the problems in aviation.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119): Okay. So airplanes don't break down. It never rains. It never snows. There's never ATC delays. There's never long take-off lines. Catering is on and off the a/c when they should 100% of the time. An a/c is NEVER overfueled. An a/c is NEVER underfueled. There's NEVER a disruptive pax that needs to be removed. Crews are NEVER late. So that I understand what you're saying. Where you work, everythin goes right 100% of the time, right? When a flight departs late, it is always the airline's fault, right. It can never be an outside factor completely out of their control, right.

Not causing problems to customers 39% of the time. Most of the time we are targeting less than 2% being noticeable by customers and keep it well under 1%.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119): Take it one step further. Earlier, you tried to say that because of the way schedules are built and a/c are routed, there's no room for hick-ups such as these thuse people miss their flights. Well, i'm sure you'd much prefer a/c running 3 legs a day vs 6. That way, you're frequencies system-wide will drop significantly. Let's also raise fairs because there will be much less capacity (seats) out in the market. Maybe then, we'll see better operations. Oh, i'm sorry, all of the above that I stated will happen anyway.

I'm glad you realize it will happen. It should have happened long time ago.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119): No, they pulled an a/c out the hanger, flew it down empty to RSW and got the remaining folks that were not accommodated on the other flights to MSP. Doesn't stop there. They boarded 122 meals (total pax count after some were rebooked) on the ferry flight so that these people can enjoy a first class meal on their way to MSP. The pundits will claim that they needed to get an a/c to MSP for following flights so that's the only reason. No...the one that went mech was a 757. They sent down an MD90. But good never happens and they're always out to screw their passengers.

Apart from your ramblings making it impossible to understand part of what you're writing - This is the right way to deal with that kind of problem.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 122): ight, just like 500 people not making a plane with 2700 seats is equally as dramatic. Please. 75 people is a lot worse than 7, regardless of whatever ratio that works out to be.

To the airline, sure. To the affected customers it is the same thing. This is another great example of the mentality problem.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 123): This isn't some sort of manufacturing process that can be controlled and manipulated to very specific degrees. Sure, those same principles are applied like they are everywhere else (because after all, it is just a complex system), but the amount of variables that go into running an airline on a daily basis is staggering, which is why certain levels of performance are tolerated where in other industries they wouldn't be.

Bull.

Quoting cmf (Reply 126): You're wrong.

Well you must have the absolute best customers. I've seen the best and worst. From young ladies being yelled at to agents being spat on and called all sorts of names...because they missed their flight. But by your logic they are deserving because they did not communicate properly.

Quoting cmf (Reply 126): To the airline, sure. To the affected customers it is the same thing. This is another great example of the mentality problem.

I'm glad you do not work for my airline. You still don't seem to get that you can never please everyone. I don't know how that's so hard to understand.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 127): Well you must have the absolute best customers. I've seen the best and worst. From young ladies being yelled at to agents being spat on and called all sorts of names...because they missed their flight. But by your logic they are deserving because they did not communicate properly.

You still don't get it. Customers will respond to how you're deal with things. Don't tell them that the next flight is only three hours later and that is within the contracted terms, as has been mentioned multiple times above. Explain why the first flight was delayed. Explain how long the other flight would have to wait for them to get to it and why it couldn't wait that long. Explain why you didn't have a van ready to take them to the destination only one hour late instead of the three hours. Do it right and just about every customer will become a spokesman telling others how well you handle problems.

Without a doubt the airline is deserving for what they got. They should get it daily considering how regular things like this is.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 127): 'm glad you do not work for my airline.

I provide service. I obviously do not fit.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 127): You still don't seem to get that you can never please everyone

I understand that isn't a reason to piss off every single customer with a problem.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 127): I don't know how that's so hard to understand.

Of course you don't. That is the problem.

Quoting cmf (Reply 128): Without a doubt the airline is deserving for what they got. They should get it daily considering how regular things like this is.

You obviously have issues with US and really have no idea how an airline runs. The agents did the correct thing, followed procedures and got the flight out. If we held for every late passenger, like apparently you would, we would never get one flight out on-time.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 129): You obviously have issues with US and really have no idea how an airline runs.

You're obviously an airline apologist who don't understand the words customer service. Considering how bankruptcy court is the only place US airlines arrive to with any kind of regularity it is obvious the industry and their apologists are the ones with no idea how to run a business.

Quoting cmf (Reply 128): You still don't get it. Customers will respond to how you're deal with things.

That's not true at all and anyone that has to deal with the public knows that full well. There is always a subset that is petty, childish, self absorbed and abusive.

Quoting cmf (Reply 130): You're obviously an airline apologist who don't understand the words customer service. Considering how bankruptcy court is the only place US airlines arrive to with any kind of regularity it is obvious the industry and their apologists are the ones with no idea how to run a business.

Seriously?

Quoting cmf (Reply 126): To the airline, sure. To the affected customers it is the same thing. This is another great example of the mentality problem.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 125): Quite to the contrary, the ratio is exactly what matters! How much of the pax carrying mission that the aircraft is designated for, it is being able to fulfill. Leaving behind 25% of your pax doesn't seem to be a bright idea.

But relative to the total number of customers each day, those ratios are different. What matters is the number of people affected and should have nothing to do with the ratio. Say you miss 3 people on a 37 seat plane and 20 on a 400 seat plane. Do you say you did a better job missing the 20 just because it's a lower percentage of the total seats on the plane? Does it cause less inconvenience for your customers and have a smaller impact to your operation because of that as well? Most likely not.

Quoting cmf (Reply 126): 39% of flights delayed averaging more than 30 minutes delay. Just about every airline having been in bk, often multiple times. Not being able to communicate with customers and constantly referring to fine print and policies when things go wrong. Doing so poorly that politicians feel forced to vote for poor passenger protection laws just to be able to say they are doing something. We have different definitions of work pretty well.

Not quite sure where you got those number (and DOT tracks sked to 15, not 30). Latest US on time numbers:

Goal 1Q13 Highlights
On-Time
Arrivals
1Q13 system:
80.7%
DOT goal: Rank first
among the Big Four
for arrivals within 14
minutes (A14)
System*:
82.1%
DOT**:
82.4

Quoting wn676 (Reply 132): Say you miss 3 people on a 37 seat plane and 20 on a 400 seat plane. Do you say you did a better job missing the 20 just because it's a lower percentage of the total seats on the plane?

In terms of cost to the company for re-accom, obviously the absolute number is more important IF YOU HAD to choose between the two. In terms of underutilizing an asset or not appreciating what the mission of the asset is, the ratio is more important.

The thing is if you take the ratio into account and have a do-not-exceed number, the total number of pax needing re-accom will also decline, meaning a win-win.

Think about it. You call a taxi for 4 people, where each person pays an individual fare. The taxi driver insists on leaving early or on time with 1 person because the other three are held up a bit, saying "its only three people, not a big deal".

Wouldn't be great for his business, would it?

Quoting cmf (Reply 126): When customers have no idea what the outcome will be then it is random to the people paying the bills.

You can argue that perception matters more than reality, but you can't change reality.

Quoting cmf (Reply 126): That certainly isn't reality.

I'm a little confused. In one sentence, you say that airlines are constantly in and out of bankruptcy, and in the next you say that the profit margins aren't "slim to none"? Which is it?

Quoting cmf (Reply 126): Which is why airlines should figure out how to communicate properly.

You know, I hear this a lot, and I always fail to see where there was a lack of communication. If you'd care to point it out, that would help in solving this argument.

Quoting cmf (Reply 126): The affected passengers should have been informed already before they landed in PHL.

Yep, because there just a whole boatload of time from the inrange call to landing for the crew to both receive a list of possible misconnects, and for the flight attendant(s) to go through and notify each and every passenger in danger of misconnecting that they may or may not make the flight. After all, there's nothing better for them to do than to tell 200 people things they already know.

I will give you this: at least you're attacking the system and not the gate agent, who literally has zero power to make any kind of hold decision... those decisions are made by operations personnel who have way more information than most people think exists.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 134): The thing is if you take the ratio into account and have a do-not-exceed number, the total number of pax needing re-accom will also decline, meaning a win-win.

There are often do-not-exceed numbers, but they aren't tied to the ratio. They do accomplish the goal of reducing reaccoms.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 134): Think about it. You call a taxi for 4 people, where each person pays an individual fare. The taxi driver insists on leaving early or on time with 1 person because the other three are held up a bit, saying "its only three people, not a big deal". Wouldn't be great for his business, would it?

Well, that depends. If waiting for those 3 people meant that another 12 throughout the day would also not make it to their destination on time, and there is another taxi following shortly with 3 open seats, then what is the best course of action in absolute terms? Say the two taxis were a company that carried 100 people that day. Waiting for those 3 people means that up to 16% of their total passengers don't make it to their destination on time versus 3%. In that case I think it's better to eat the cost of the asset utilization for that one trip to minimize the disruption to their customers.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 136): there is another taxi following shortly with 3 open seats, then what is the best course of action in absolute terms?

If there is another taxi right behind, then I fully agree with you. But if the other taxi is coming half an hour later and it takes only 15 minutes to walk to the destination, then the best course of action for the taxi company is certainly not the best course of action for the customers -- especially if another taxi from the same taxi company is responsible for them being a few minutes late in the first place.

My AA flight this past week was delayed by 40 minutes to allow for connecting PAX. It was a 10:20am flight ORD-LAX. It certainly wasn't the last of the day.

Airlines with class, wait.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 131): That's not true at all and anyone that has to deal with the public knows that full well. There is always a subset that is petty, childish, self absorbed and abusive.

Some are a lot more difficult than others but if you think they react the same if you put someone who screams back at them or someone who starts with "How can we fix your problem" you obviously have no interest it getting things fixed.

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 133): Not quite sure where you got those number (and DOT tracks sked to 15, not 30). Latest US on time numbers:

http://www.flightstats.com/go/Flight...1&airlineCode=US&flightNumber=4302

It is for that flight specifically.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 135): You can argue that perception matters more than reality, but you can't change reality.

It is the passengers reality. Don't know why you think you can ignore it.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 135): I'm a little confused. In one sentence, you say that airlines are constantly in and out of bankruptcy, and in the next you say that the profit margins aren't "slim to none"? Which is it?

Why do you think those statements are contradictory?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 135): You know, I hear this a lot, and I always fail to see where there was a lack of communication. If you'd care to point it out, that would help in solving this argument.

Why is it that you will always find out about delays from other sources before from the airline? Why don't airlines (most) provide an updated itinerary before we land when I'm on a flight that is so delayed I will not be able to make my connection?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 135): Yep, because there just a whole boatload of time from the inrange call to landing for the crew to both receive a list of possible misconnects, and for the flight attendant(s) to go through and notify each and every passenger in danger of misconnecting that they may or may not make the flight. After all, there's nothing better for them to do than to tell 200 people things they already know.

Because that is the only way to do it... Again, some airlines show in on the screens. Passengers booked on xx123 have been re-booked to xx234. With internet access fairly common you have another great method.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 135): those decisions are made by operations personnel who have way more information than most people think exists.

The info is there. Why so tight with it? You don't need to give away secrets to make customers understand why things are happening and become sympathetic to the problems you deal with instead of hostile because you treat them like inconvenient boxes.

Okay - lots of speculation (LOTS of speculation) - 139 posts. Really?

So I thought I'd take stab at some facts.

The event occurred on May 3. BTW - the wrap up was May 4 - the next day.

US Airways operates 6 flights from PHL to AVP (Scranton). They are operated by Piedmont or Chautauqua.

The report states they missed a flight and were re-booked on a later flight that leaves 3 hours later. The only flights that fit those parameters are 4302 at 17:30 and 3078 at 20:29.

So we can assume they were booked on US Airways 4302.

4302 is a Dash 8 - it seats 9 rows of 5 - so 45 people, not 20.
According to the US it 'departs' at 1730. According to flight aware - on May 3, US airways flight 4302
- Was scheduled to depart at 17:34. It departed at 17:36, 2 minutes post plan
- Was scheduled to arrive at 18:10. It arrived at 18:07, 3 minutes early.

So -
- The plane seats 45, not 20. Strike 1 Mr. Office
- The plane left and arrived pretty much right on time, not 10 minutes early. Strike 2 Mr. Office.
- The wrapup party was Sat the 4th, not Friday the 3rd - so they did were in no danger of missing it. Implied Strike 3 Mr. Office.

So -
They arrived late. The plane had closed, probably not pushed, but if they did push it was to maintain schedule (which they did) and they could have waited for the later flight. Nobody forced them to rent a car and drive.

As for the gate agent - if they were like me, I would have no idea who this joker is - so it would be a name on a manifest.
Typical hollywood self-righteous b**b
BG

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 140): Okay - lots of speculation (LOTS of speculation) - 139 posts. Really?

Pretty amazing it's lasted this long, eh? There are a select few in this thread who don't want to accept that airlines actually do care about the customer and that more people are flying than ever, even though situations like this happen everyday!

We need a 'beat a dead horse' emote on this site, very fitting here...

Quoting cmf (Reply 128):

I gather that you were there and you know the agent didn't do and say exactly what you're suggesting. But your point is tha because he went on a childish tirade, he/she couldn't have because "if you communicate properly with customers" they'll understand.

I assume this will be locked soon because it's become so ridiculous, but let me just say that this thread has been far more interesting than anything on The Office over the past two seasons, and for that I'm grateful to everyone...

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 140): So - - The plane seats 45, not 20. Strike 1 Mr. Office

Not to nitpick an otherwise good post, rcair,but the DH8-100/200 has 37 seats. (The -300 has 50). But at PDT, the type is usually only authorized to sell to 34; this came about with new FAA pax/bag weights after the Air Midwest accident at CLT.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry to repeat myself, but misconnects happen many times a day, on every airline, at every hub. This time, it happened to a B-list celeb with a twitter feed, so it being discussed here ( also on FlyerTalk and airlineforums.com, probably on other discussion boards, as well).

I know that I am likely to get flamed here, but it can be tiresome to see armchair experts, who have never worked in the industry, pontificating about an airline should run. No carrier or employee sets out to ruin a passenger's day. But in a system as large and complex, it will happen from time to time.

Didn't David Letterman once say something like "You think it's so easy? Start your own damn airline!"




Full disclosure: I have only seen "The Office" a couple of times. Had it been the cast of say, "Homeland", I would be upset. No one does that to Claire Danes!  

[Edited 2013-05-07 08:48:10]

[Edited 2013-05-07 08:48:54]

[Edited 2013-05-07 08:50:27]

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 141): Pretty amazing it's lasted this long, eh? There are a select few in this thread who don't want to accept that airlines actually do care about the customer and that more people are flying than ever, even though situations like this happen everyday!

Pretty amazing how some people will refuse to accept that airlines aren't perfect. That a passenger missing the connection printed on her itinerary isn't a shortcoming if the airline manage to deliver them to the destination at some future time, because the policy says that is enough.

It is people like you who give aviation employees the bad reputation they have.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 142): I gather that you were there and you know the agent didn't do and say exactly what you're suggesting. But your point is tha because he went on a childish tirade, he/she couldn't have because "if you communicate properly with customers" they'll understand.

Obviously you were there... You know the agent explained everything perfectly and he then ignored of it and posted what he knew were lies just because customers do that.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 140): 4302 is a Dash 8 - it seats 9 rows of 5 - so 45 people, not 20.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 140): - The plane seats 45, not 20. Strike 1 Mr. Office

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 144): Not to nitpick an otherwise good post, rcair,but the DH8-100/200 has 37 seats. (The -300 has 50). But at PDT, the

For someone claiming to lay out the "facts", it is pretty amazing that a basic fact -- the seating config of a Dash-8 -- is stated flat out wrong. Dash-8-100s have 4 seats per row. So 36, plus an extra seat in the last bench, giving 37. 7 of 37 is just under 20% of the capacity of the aircraft.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 140): According to the US it 'departs' at 1730. According to flight aware - on May 3, US airways flight 4302 - Was scheduled to depart at 17:34. It departed at 17:36, 2 minutes post plan

Not according to the Flightaware links for these exact dates and flights posted earlier. That show the aircraft pushing 6 min early.

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 144): I know that I am likely to get flamed here, but it can be tiresome to see armchair experts, who have never worked in the industry, pontificating about an airline should run.

I can only speak for myself -- 15 years in the industry, in planning, operations, and customer experience, in the US, Europe, and Asia. But don't like to throw that around just to brow-beat others down. And I can tell you -- the biggest challenge most US airlines have is that they view things only from the point of view of their internal operational convenience, and not through the eyes of the customer. A very short-sighted approach.

[Edited 2013-05-07 09:52:33]

Ok...time to shut this one down. It's become almost as ridiculous as the thread where someone suggested that disrupted pax on today's flights should take precedence over and bump the booked/confirmed people on tomorrow's flights, and that this should be standard airline policy.

I've been on a number of flights, or observed gate agents (while waiting for the next flight) deciding to hold flights, because of late arriving passengers due delayed flights into the hub airport.

Once, while sitting at ORD waiting for an AA flight to LGA, the agents were preparing to close up a flight for JAC. Two people came sprinting down the concourse yelling to hold the JAC flight, and that 7 more people from a late arrival from EWR were behind them. Everyone working at ORD was aware that a major snow storm had hit the Northeast, from BOS to IAD, since AA had cancelled some early departures out of ORD for various Northeastern airports.

One agent started worked that computer at the desk, while the other scanned boarding passes. Ultimately, the flight left about 10 minutes late. Meanwhile, the inbound aircraft destined for LGA was sitting at the end of the H-L alley waiting for the gate to open.

The problems with not holding a flight for potential misconnects are that the released flight is leaving with empty seats (not good), and the misconnects have to be accomodated on later flights. If weather is causing a number of flights throughout the day to arrive late at a hub, letting flights depart on time with empty seats due to misconnects just makes it harder and harder to deal with an increasing number of misconnects.

Quoting cmf (Reply 126): 39% of flights delayed averaging more than 30 minutes delay. Just about every airline having been in bk, often multiple times. Not being able to communicate with customers and constantly referring to fine print and policies when things go wrong. Doing so poorly that politicians feel forced to vote for poor passenger protection laws just to be able to say they are doing something. We have different definitions of work pretty well.

I'm curious to know what industry you work in. Airlines are not high-margin businesses. Line by line - airline employees make less then their counterparts in most other industries(there are exceptions of course). $28,000 to fly an RJ around isn't exactly getting rich. And airlines often deal with challenges that would make people in some other professions curl up in the fetal position and cry.

I'm not apologizing for the airlines here. But until you've been on both sides of the counter don't judge too harshly.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 148): The problems with not holding a flight for potential misconnects are that the released flight is leaving with empty seats (not good), and the misconnects have to be accomodated on later flights. If weather is causing a number of flights throughout the day to arrive late at a hub, letting flights depart on time with empty seats due to misconnects just makes it harder and harder to deal with an increasing number of misconnects.

In the hub environment, waiting for those 10 people might mean the aircraft comes back with 100 misconnects. Those deals can be tricky ....